Westworld

[Rishathra]

I wasn't a fan of the atemporal storytelling either, at first.  It worked REALLY well in the first season both as a narrative device and as something directly relating to the plot and characters (that the hosts have trouble distinguishing memory from current experience).  At the start of this one, it felt wholly gimmicky and unnecessary.  However, much like how the season as a whole has tightened up after the first few episodes, the timey-wimey stuff has also improved.  The whole sequence with Charlotte Hale doing the interrogation/diagnosis with Bernard worked really well, I think.

jgsugden, I kind of disagree with you about

One of my favorite bits this season has to do with Teddy.

[eldaec]

I think the time jumping this season is supposed to make the viewer feel the same confusion most of the characters are suffering. I'm kind of interested to see if they change the way it is used again next season - because it very much feels a part of the show now.


Ordinarily I'd have dumped a show doing this as too much hard work, but I find I can put up with it because the individual scenes are good enough.

It definitely limits the show's ability to have any sort of plot though. For the number of hours spent we have had very little story this season. I'm OK with it, but sceptical the show is going to make it past season 3 if it remains this obtuse.

[jgsugden]

...jgsugden, I kind of disagree with you about

She was wasted this season, but I assumed there would be more good to come eventually.

[eldaec]

There might be.

Given the format, having shown someone die is not a major impediment to their continued appearance on the show.

[jgsugden]

There might be.

Given the format, having shown someone die is not a major impediment to their continued appearance on the show.

[eldaec]

A) you completely sure there are no more backups of anyone anywhere?

B) nothing stops them replicating the physical model with a new personality.

C) yes, the time jumping thing was the point I was making.

[jgsugden]

A) you completely sure there are no more backups of anyone anywhere?..

You did note the "in theory", right?

I was hoping t see more of her character this season.  We saw less.  Current indications point to even less going forward.  It is ... potentially? ... disappointing.

[Bunk]

Best meme about the most recent episode: "Happy Father's Day Dad, I got you a card!"

[HaemishM]

That was a fucked up episode. I keep expecting William to actually be a host, to be the "success" of the project they started with James Delos.

[Samwise]

That was a fucked up episode. I keep expecting William to actually be a host, to be the "success" of the project they started with James Delos.

During the previous episode I kept saying "how the hell is shamanic medicine or whatever going to help him survive a gut shot?"

During this episode I said that too, and then we saw the first aid kit, and I was like "okay, maybe she got to him just in time and the first aid kit has magic nanites or some shit that patched him up, we are in the future after all"

But in this episode we learned that spending time in the park is how you build your backup, and we also got that the natives are guarding the place where the "guest backups" are kept with their lives.  With all the time he spends in the park, William is THE ideal test subject for the Delos immortality process.  I think it's not inconceivable that he died and got restored from backup.

That said, I wouldn't put any money on it.  Seems like a stretch that the natives would actually have access to the Valley/Forge and have the technical expertise to be able to pull that switcheroo off so neatly.  I'd buy that Ford could pull it off but I don't know why he'd want to, and his hand hasn't been at all visible in William's storyline recently.

Maybe William's entire storyline (or maybe just everything that happened since he got shot?) is taking place in the Forge.  THAT would 100% fit with Ford's MO.   

[eldaec]

Possibly, but I like the idea that he convinces himself he's a host more than him actually being a host. Plenty of other characters doing the other thing.

[Brolan]

Even though the neck scan said he was human there was some weird stuff going on.  Surviving all those gun shots shows the strength of a host.  Plus he keeps digging at his arm at the same place they hook up their tablets to hosts.  I’m starting to wonder if the whole host revolution isn’t just a game created by Ford for William’s mind and isn’t even really happening.

[Samwise]

Even though the neck scan said he was human there was some weird stuff going on.  Surviving all those gun shots shows the strength of a host.  Plus he keeps digging at his arm at the same place they hook up their tablets to hosts.  I’m starting to wonder if the whole host revolution isn’t just a game created by Ford for William’s mind and isn’t even really happening.

The amount of sheer rage that would generate would almost be worth it.   

[Abagadro]

He was digging in his arm because he is going coo-coo bananas I think, but I've been wrong about what this show is willing to do before.

[eldaec]

I keep reminding myself there has never been a case of a scan not detecting a cylon. But then there is Bernard.

I think I'm right in saying that among the living only sassy girl sidekick and Bernard himself know he is not human until the door scene where they find lots of Bernards - which AFAIK is the last scene we've seen in the time line.

Possibly Delores knows?

Can completely imagine William hosts existing and future scenes about who the real William is especially if bioWilliam goes nuts.

[Velorath]

Possibly, but I like the idea that he convinces himself he's a host more than him actually being a host. Plenty of other characters doing the other thing.

Agreed. A host that thinks it's human has been done on this show. A human who is coming to feel that he's just as much a slave to his programming as the hosts helps continue to blur the lines between what the actual difference is between us and them. It's the more interesting story rather than the shocking twist, and while Jonathan Nolan does love his twists I don't think he relies on them as Shyamalan-like crutches where he does things simply for the shock value.

[jgsugden]

Also, think of the original movie.  Who was the original MIB?

[HaemishM]

He was digging in his arm because he is going coo-coo bananas I think, but I've been wrong about what this show is willing to do before.

It's possible he's well around the bend back before his wife committed suicide and has started to believe he is a host like Delos even though he isn't.

[Polysorbate80]

Possibly Delores knows? 

Unclear; she was the “fidelity” test for Bernard and knew about the host version but knew the original as well.  She may not know which he is.

[jgsugden]

Delores has to know, as must Maeve now.

I'm betting ...

[eldaec]

Possibly Delores knows? 

Unclear; she was the “fidelity” test for Bernard and knew about the host version but knew the original as well.  She may not know which he is.

Wyatt shot the original didn't he?

[Brolan]

Just had an idea, maybe William didn’t survive the shooting and was just restored from his backup in a host body.

[Tebonas]

Which would destroy any effect of his "Shooting his own daughter" scene, which was important to his whole arc. Plus, we had enough Hosts that think they are Humans, that is not a new angle. A Human that thinks he is a Host on the other hand would be a fresh perspective.

For me this is just his cowardly way of externalizing his guilt. Which would also fit his delusional personality and persecution complex.

[Samwise]

The shooting his own daughter scene is actually what makes me think a Ford-authored simulation isn't out of the question here.  

Imagine if you could play a game that forced you to confront the worst aspects of yourself, make terrible mistakes, learn something from them, FEEL the consequences of those mistakes -- and then go back to your real life and get a chance to do things right this time.  Sound like something that William would benefit from?  Sound like something Ford would enjoy putting together?  

Remember when Ford promised William that there was a new game that was Just For Him?  

[jgsugden]

I'm still not 100% sure that was his real daughter.  We were given all the tools to believe it was, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

[Samwise]

I'm still not 100% sure that was his real daughter.  We were given all the tools to believe it was, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

Which is why I'm leaning more toward the "William's game is happening in the Forge" theory.  There's only so much fakery you can pull off with host bodies -- maybe you can fool scanners, but you can't fool a Bowie knife.

That or William is completely off the rails, which I think is what we're supposed to believe at this point.  But then it's hard to see how there's a payoff to Ford's promise at the end of last season about there being a game for him, and Ford is basically presented as a near-omniscient Wizard of Oz and/or Jigsaw Killer, so I tend to expect that if he sets something up there's going to be a payoff.

[HaemishM]

William interacted with Maeve in the park so we know he's not in the simulation with Ford unless the whole goddamn thing is a simulation. Which would be disappointing.

[Slayerik]

Maybe im not smart, but im like 4 episodes in and I'm having a hard time following everything. First season I never really felt lost at all, but I just haven't been as locked in this season as well.

[kaid]

Delores has to know, as must Maeve now.

I'm betting ...

I am just waiting for a host of his daughter to wake up in a room full of spare williams and yell MOTHERFUCKER.

[eldaec]

Maybe im not smart, but im like 4 episodes in and I'm having a hard time following everything. First season I never really felt lost at all, but I just haven't been as locked in this season as well.

It does pull itself back together.

First season starts simple and gets weird. This one goes the other way.

[HaemishM]

I'm thinking that second season is much better watched in binges than weekly.

[Samwise]

Yeah, it's hard to keep track of all the threads sometimes, but they actually do pay off the stuff they set up.  I loved loved LOVED the episode about the Indian dude because it actually resolved a whole bunch of stuff that was starting to verge on Lost-level "question box" bullshit.  Gives me good feelings about the future of the show.

(edit) also:

I know that everyone in this show is varying degrees of terrible and deliberately hard to completely root for (especially Dolores, My God has she become a horrible shitgoblin), but I am definitely on Team Teddy.

 

[Polysorbate80]

I know that everyone in this show is varying degrees of terrible and deliberately hard to completely root for (especially Dolores, My God has she become a horrible shitgoblin), but I am definitely on Team Teddy.

 

The only way to win is not to play...

[Brolan]

Is this the last episode of season 2 coming up?

[Samwise]

Yup!