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Author Topic: Westworld  (Read 42036 times)
Miguel
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Reply #350 on: June 25, 2018, 01:31:01 AM

Wow.

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Quinton
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Reply #351 on: June 25, 2018, 03:09:01 AM

All along it's been setup for season three.  I love it.

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Reply #352 on: June 25, 2018, 04:12:18 AM

So what happened? I am tired of shows drip feeding answers to things some of the characters clearly know but won't explain because reasons.

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Brolan
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Reply #353 on: June 25, 2018, 07:08:37 AM

Well it seems Dolores is a super villain planning on killing the human race, Bernard is the hero trying stop her.  William is a Delos-like clone host that isn’t quite right.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #354 on: June 25, 2018, 09:03:07 AM

So what happened? I am tired of shows drip feeding answers to things some of the characters clearly know but won't explain because reasons.
Arnold's inner monologue has an unreliable narrator.

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Reply #355 on: June 25, 2018, 11:36:51 AM

Yeah, I'm in the "wow, what the fuck just happened?" camp. I have no idea how they fuck season 3 is going to go, but you can bet I'll be there. I wasn't quite sold on it until the scene with William. And then I was like "OH I GOTS TO SEE THIS SHIT."

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Reply #356 on: June 25, 2018, 11:44:01 AM

Right now it doesn't sound like that end scene with William will really be addressed next season as it takes place farther in the future (which is why everything looks the way it does), and they said specifically already that Season 3 won't go that far. My take away from that scene is just that there is going to be a host version of him doomed to relive what he's done over and over, never capable of making a choice to do things differently.
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Reply #357 on: June 25, 2018, 12:28:03 PM

I learned there was an after-credits scene from the internet while trying to figure out what the hell was going on at the end.  HBO GO kicked us out before we got to it.  Still, I find myself pretty uninterested in continuing with the show.
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Reply #358 on: June 25, 2018, 10:05:36 PM

All along it's been setup for season three.  I love it.

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That's what they said last season. What a load of horseshit this whole season was. Absolute dreck that went nowhere, made no sense, and was not even internally consistent. Bleh.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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Tebonas
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Reply #359 on: June 26, 2018, 01:20:37 AM

I'm torn on the finale. On a pure visceral level I liked it. But when you start thinking about it it falls apart frightingly fast. Senseless sacrifices that were put in there just to pull on our heartstrings, and are meaningless anyway because of suddenly bulletproof Hostbrains and the Forge giving us the opportunity to resurrect both guests and hosts (as seen with William and further hinted at with the marbels in Charlottes handbag). The pulling out secret hosts at the last minute shtick gets tiresome as well.

Nolan and Joy got lost in their own cleverness and their drive to surprise people who spoil themself. Its telling that the only superb episode of the season was the one with linear storytelling where you could follow the plot without brain acrobatics or explanations by the creators (Kiksuya).
Abagadro
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Reply #360 on: June 26, 2018, 01:33:23 AM

Can’t wait for Delores Lehnsherr and Charles Xavier Bernard next season.  Feh.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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eldaec
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Reply #361 on: June 26, 2018, 03:02:08 AM

Liked Dolores and Bernard, wasn't so keen on the Maeve/Clem/Door ending.

The bulls were cool. But at the door I couldn't suspend belief as to why the humans didn't shoot everyone with guns - or notice that the hosts were diving off a cliff so who cares. Unlike in most of the season the hosts were no threat - so it felt like a lot of fuss for a few dozen robots that were in the process of shutting down. It also bothered me that the hosts were unaware of the choice they were making which undermined Bernard and Dolores discussion.

The post credit scene I'm mixed on. I couldn't help thinking that using simulated junior William, Logan, or Ford would have been a better choice than Emily.

Anyway, episode 9 had enough awesome to pay off the whole season - so I'll certainly be in for the third.

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SurfD
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Reply #362 on: June 30, 2018, 02:10:36 AM

Which is why I'm leaning more toward the "William's game is happening in the Forge" theory.  There's only so much fakery you can pull off with host bodies -- maybe you can fool scanners, but you can't fool a Bowie knife.
I am not so sure about that.  You saw the skeleton Bernard was laying out when he "rebuilt" Delores, and we know from the closet full of decommissioned Bernards as well as numerous other shots of hosts as well as the whole "park has been operational for 30+ years" thing that there has been a LOT of iteration on host design.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if most recent generation host bodies could likely fool everything short of a full on autopsy / xray scan.  For all we know, latest gen hosts might not even have hardwire ports, and could be entirely wireless pairing.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 02:20:26 AM by SurfD »

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Reply #363 on: June 30, 2018, 02:19:43 AM

Liked Dolores and Bernard, wasn't so keen on the Maeve/Clem/Door ending.

The bulls were cool. But at the door I couldn't suspend belief as to why the humans didn't shoot everyone with guns - or notice that the hosts were diving off a cliff so who cares. Unlike in most of the season the hosts were no threat - so it felt like a lot of fuss for a few dozen robots that were in the process of shutting down. It also bothered me that the hosts were unaware of the choice they were making which undermined Bernard and Dolores discussion.
I imagine it has to do with several things:
The humans didn't shoot everyone because there weren't enough humans, and as previously shown, the hosts had a rather effective ability to fight back. Clem was their answer to the "rogue host" problem.  Basically a walking infectious viral outbreak that caused hosts in proximity to her to start killing each other.
Saying the hosts were no threat is severely downplaying pretty much everything that happened in the season.   I mean, from the human perspective, every single host in the park is a threat from the instant Fords new narrative kicked off to start the season until every last one of them is found and dealt with.  It doesn't get more threatening than self aware killer robots.
As to the hosts throwing themselves off the cliff: humans fear the unknown / unexplained.  With all the strange behavior already going on with the hosts, you can be damn sure that the hosts seeming to commit mass suicide would be strange enough a phenomenon to have the humans concerned as to why exactly they were doing it.

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eldaec
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Reply #364 on: July 01, 2018, 07:38:17 AM

I can buy the idea that humans thought it was a threat and didn't understand that the hosts were suiciding to respawn elsewhere.

But I'm saying it didn't make good television because they weren't a threat and the only stakes were whether one unremarkable host made it over the line.

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lamaros
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Reply #365 on: July 23, 2018, 11:00:11 PM

This whole season was pretty average. A few of you who seem excited are going to get "Lost" with those expectations.

Ignoring the overall plot though, episodes 8 and 9 I thought were very well done. 8 especially.

On the other hand, the whole Shogun world stuff was complete drek. As was Neo-maeve generally.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 11:07:56 PM by lamaros »

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Reply #366 on: July 24, 2018, 12:50:18 PM

Episode 8 was the one that made me say "okay, they're not just pulling a Lost here".  Because it would have been pretty easy for them to just leave the Indians as a mystical mystery box that never got opened, and instead they actually explained exactly what their deal was in a single satisfying episode.  It was great.

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eldaec
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Reply #367 on: July 24, 2018, 01:09:37 PM

The difference is that most of the time arbitrary plot twists here serve character, theme and watchable performances.

Whereas lost is just bullshit plot for its own sake.

Totally accept that the central 'delos are copying people' thing makes no particular sense. But I don't mind because that wasn't the answer to a stupid mystery, it was just premise. And premise that has opened up worthwhile content.

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lamaros
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Reply #368 on: July 24, 2018, 07:22:16 PM

Disclamer: I've never watched Lost, just used to term to mean unreasonable expctations.

The difference is that most of the time arbitrary plot twists here serve character, theme and watchable performances.

I didn't feel this really to be true for a lot of this season. I felt that outside of Bernard the rest were just killing time. There were some small moments of humor or well deliverd lines, but nothing that added. Maeve and Dolores were lessened by the season for me, not developed.


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Khaldun
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Reply #369 on: July 24, 2018, 07:27:24 PM

I don't understand why the idea that Delos are looking for a system to test the fidelity of minds copied into constructed bodies makes no sense. It makes good sense to me--it's exactly what weird oligarchs like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel are hunting right now in the real world, a way to live forever. I think most of them don't want to live forever as virtual simulations, they want to have their minds uploaded and then downloaded into flesh. So Westworld's deep premise is that this turns out to be really hard to accomplish.
lamaros
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Reply #370 on: July 24, 2018, 07:37:38 PM

I don't understand why the idea that Delos are looking for a system to test the fidelity of minds copied into constructed bodies makes no sense. It makes good sense to me--it's exactly what weird oligarchs like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel are hunting right now in the real world, a way to live forever. I think most of them don't want to live forever as virtual simulations, they want to have their minds uploaded and then downloaded into flesh. So Westworld's deep premise is that this turns out to be really hard to accomplish.

Yeah I have no problem with that at all.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Wasted
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Reply #371 on: July 24, 2018, 08:22:32 PM

I always had the idea in the back of my mind that they might be copying people to replace their incredibly rich and influential customers with almost flawless replicas programmed to acquiesce to Delos as needed.
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Reply #372 on: July 24, 2018, 09:18:12 PM

Delos already seems to have all the acquiescence they need--this is clearly a world ruled by bored sybaritic oligarchs.
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Reply #373 on: July 25, 2018, 02:47:58 AM

Delos is presented as entirely money driven, but there is no particular plan to make money with this, and if it is there it is far too long term to interest Delos as presented.

William has a line which could come straight from the underpants elves.

"If you can't see how seeing what people really are is profitable, you aren't the business man I thought" or something like that.

BUT I AM OK WITH THIS

I just see the project as William's weird obsession that grew out of his MMORPG addiction, and the Delos family as a victim of William's manipulation. Emily seems to take more or less the same view. It isn't very convincing, but ok because it is premise not plot.

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Khaldun
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Reply #374 on: July 25, 2018, 08:06:29 AM

William is just scamming the old man with that line, I thought. Maybe even with the "you'll be immortal" schtick. Fundamentally I think what we're told is true: William wants to know if he can make a choice, if he has free will, or if he's just an algorithm.

I don't know what to do with the post-credits, though. Either it's a trick on him and therefore means nothing (e.g., his daughter or someone else is out to torment him specifically) or it means everything we've seen is a lie, which will be very stupid if they mean it.
lamaros
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Reply #375 on: July 25, 2018, 09:41:33 AM

The world outside the park is painted very thin. Delos is everything it's needed to be all the way along.

If you try to break any of it down it all falls apart. It's not the point, so I don't care.

It's a MMORPG delivery system for literary quotes and philosophy. I'm fine with that. I just wish they cut out all the bullshit with Dolores and Maeve which was bad drama and not the core fascination. Dolores fucking up Teddy was the only interesting thing that came from that.

Expect poison from the standing water.
eldaec
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Reply #376 on: July 25, 2018, 11:16:06 AM

I took everyone post credits to be an android and the point of the scene being to say 'Ed Harris in in season 3'.

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Khaldun
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Reply #377 on: July 25, 2018, 01:24:42 PM

Could be. Maybe William becomes the test of whether a human becomes able to make a choice if he's downloaded into a host body.
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Reply #378 on: May 06, 2019, 03:00:09 AM

So, finally just binged the entire season 2 over the weekend, a year late.  Liked it a lot!  Not as good as season 1, but still very entertaining.  Unlike all of you, I liked the time jumps from the get go.  It kept me interested seeing both the uprising events and the aftermath, and trying to piece it together.  Would have been a lot more boring if it was linear.  Was nice they answered a lot of questions.  Also, loved the reuse of the line "What door?", except with the roles reversed.

Having said that, season did have some problems:

 Shogun world stuff dragged out and was pretty pointless.  I loved it when they showed them redoing the saloon fight but with samurais, but everything after that was bleh.
The whole story with Maeve and her crew was not very tight and didn't make much sense.  No explanation how she suddenly became one of the matrix and got super powers.  Felt like they were just trying to keep them busy with shit to do.
Story writer dudes sacrifice felt super forced and unnecessary.  Like, it would have been cool for him to make a selfless sacrifice for the good of the bots, but that particular situation they setup made no sense.  Badly handled.
I know I mentioned before how the guards acting dumb bugged me.  But holy fuck, the idiocy of the security forces in this season was completely immersion breaking.  Like "There and entire fort full of men with rifles shooting at us.  The obvious attack is to stand up straight and walk towards them in an open field without trying to take any cover."  Holy shit, even a grocery clerk with a gun wouldn't do that.  Honestly, the hosts doing so well relied on security being unbelievably dumb.  When they took the mesa they had to have them break through choke points off screen and then show them fighting close quarters because I think they knew there was no way they could show them physically doing it.

From earlier in this thread:
Quote
Re: the hosts dropping cryptic hints about the maze -- my take is that some of the hosts in the fringes of the park have been able to retain more memories than the hosts in the Sweetwater area (who generally get more attention and more rollbacks), and have built a mystical religion around their insights.  It's made explicit that some of them have knowledge of the guys in hazmat suits and explain them as being from the afterlife.  So some of them might have found Dolores's maze (maybe Arnold embedded it deep in the core code of all the hosts, like the reveries, and Dolores was the first to be able to access it but never meant to be the only one) and incorporated it into their religion, and they know enough about it to know that it's not for the "newcomers".

Good job on more or less calling it Sam!

Delos is presented as entirely money driven, but there is no particular plan to make money with this, and if it is there it is far too long term to interest Delos as presented.

William has a line which could come straight from the underpants elves.

"If you can't see how seeing what people really are is profitable, you aren't the business man I thought" or something like that.

BUT I AM OK WITH THIS

I just see the project as William's weird obsession that grew out of his MMORPG addiction, and the Delos family as a victim of William's manipulation. Emily seems to take more or less the same view. It isn't very convincing, but ok because it is premise not plot.

Guys, seriously.  They were able to read the minds of every single guest and worker there and decode it into an algorithm. A profile, they kept calling them through the whole season.  This profile tells you exactly how that person will behave and react to everything.  They literally have read the minds of every rich and powerful fuck on the planet, and can calculate exactly what choices they'll make to any given situation or proposition.  If you can't see the insane money making potential in that......

Anyways, that was the money making pitch, with immortality the next step.  Williams just started going off the deep end because he read his own profile and didn't like what it said.

Though boy, no idea where the hell they'll be taking this next.

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HaemishM
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Reply #379 on: May 06, 2019, 10:07:06 AM

The Delos money-making plan is bascially Google's entire business model.  why so serious?

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Reply #380 on: May 06, 2019, 01:52:01 PM

Delos secruity being totally inept is a small thing. Honestly, the entire series depends on humans being extremely dumb. It's basically about creating a superior-human-version-2 without ever realizing or taking steps to mitigate.

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Reply #381 on: May 19, 2019, 09:37:14 PM

The teaser for this before GoT completely blew my mind, I thought it was a brand new show that looked incredibly interesting until the WW logo came up at the end.

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Reply #382 on: May 19, 2019, 09:52:15 PM

HaemishM
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Reply #383 on: May 19, 2019, 10:48:06 PM

JESSE!!!

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Reply #384 on: May 19, 2019, 10:48:34 PM

Considering how shit season 2 was I hope they do go a completely different direction and do something interesting.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
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