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schild
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Reply #105 on: May 10, 2016, 11:19:24 AM

It's more than that. There's a fundamental misunderstanding in the FDA of what vaping is and what it isn't. The associations with big tobacco are just positively absurd. Yes BT has products on the market, and yes, they may be the first step for most vapers due to advertising, but their actual pickup and retention rate is awful. This legislation ONLY hurts small businesses and nobody else. It's maddening.
Furiously
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Reply #106 on: May 10, 2016, 12:21:34 PM

It's more than that. There's a fundamental misunderstanding in the FDA of what vaping is and what it isn't. The associations with big tobacco are just positively absurd. Yes BT has products on the market, and yes, they may be the first step for most vapers due to advertising, but their actual pickup and retention rate is awful. This legislation ONLY hurts small businesses and nobody else. It's maddening.

It's not designed to hurt, it's designed to kill.  I'm wondering how many business are getting ready to move to Canada or Mexico.

schild
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Reply #107 on: May 10, 2016, 12:52:50 PM

None. Lawsuits started today. The FDA is literally not going to have the manpower to deal with the size of the vaping industry. When they made it halfway-barely-reasonable for BT to function, they forgot there's 5000+ other businesses, at least 500 of which have a bankroll to severely fuck up their day.
Furiously
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Reply #108 on: May 10, 2016, 01:09:05 PM

I thought this was an interesting read,

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e-cigarettes-an-evidence-update

The 95% safer than cigarettes in a government study is pretty damning evidence....And the no second hand nicotine makes me feel better about smoking around others.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 01:24:08 PM by Furiously »

schild
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Reply #109 on: May 10, 2016, 01:44:17 PM

Oh, they absolutely had to ignore every last shred of evidence that's been put forward to come up with this shit.
Engels
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Reply #110 on: May 10, 2016, 02:35:00 PM

Schild, are you talking about Katiri's publication or something else? Cuz the UK one seems to close to what I thought was the case.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something.

-Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

"let go of my dick you mother fucker!"  - Jimbo
schild
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Reply #111 on: May 10, 2016, 02:53:21 PM

schild
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Reply #112 on: May 10, 2016, 02:54:23 PM

Schild, are you talking about Katiri's publication or something else? Cuz the UK one seems to close to what I thought was the case.
I mean literally any of the studies. There's been a handful that were done under faulty usage, but otherwise, none of them lend credibility or an insight into the reason to how the FDA is currently treating the industry (which is wholly an economic and tax related issue).
Furiously
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Reply #113 on: May 10, 2016, 06:42:04 PM


Paelos
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Reply #114 on: May 11, 2016, 05:55:29 AM

This legislation ONLY hurts small businesses and nobody else. It's maddening.

It's supposed to, I would imagine. The US Government has never shown a favorable position to small businesses operating in what they would dub "sin taxes" and they likely never will. It's also part of why the general tax burden is heavier on small business than big business, because they don't have the resources to avoid it.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
schild
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Reply #115 on: May 11, 2016, 09:06:58 AM

BT can't really avoid it either in this case though. The PMTA process is a bureaucratic nightmare and it takes YEARS for them to process applications. I believe the backlog right now is 3000+ items. It's a great money-making scheme but a terrible pathway to putting a product on the market.

So while BT can afford it, that doesn't solve the actual problem - which is the FDA is a black hole of suck.
Furiously
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Reply #116 on: May 11, 2016, 10:39:41 AM

Now might be a good time to invest in fog machine manufacturers that are still making their 2007 models.

schild
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Reply #117 on: May 11, 2016, 11:13:09 AM

While close, unfortunately not quite the same technology :/

If only a club out there had put nicotine into one of the strawberry fog machines once.
Furiously
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Reply #118 on: May 11, 2016, 11:29:17 AM

While close, unfortunately not quite the same technology :/

If only a club out there had put nicotine into one of the strawberry fog machines once.

Some of the mini ones are the exact same technology. I'm not sure they are pre-2007 though.  http://looksolutionsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/TinyF07C07Vaporizer.pdf

And the product...http://looksolutionsusa.com/products/tiny-fx/

schild
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Reply #119 on: May 11, 2016, 11:35:18 AM

I will poke around this, but I suspect "intention" is where this falls apart.

These were intended to chuck clouds at a group, but not necessarily intended to be inhaled by any of the spectators.

We're talking about an agency that wants to regulate 18650 batteries as a tobacco product. I can't stress enough that the FDA has lost their fucking mind.
Paelos
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Reply #120 on: May 11, 2016, 11:42:45 AM

Is this because some of the battries or rigs blew up? What caused the move towards this regulation that they are spouting? Not the real reason, I get that part, I'm just wondering what emotional "think of the children" ploy they are using to sell it to the stupid.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
schild
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Reply #121 on: May 11, 2016, 12:34:59 PM

Oh. Kids like flavored things, adults don't. They just want to vape tobacco and sandalwood. Get rid of flavors.

Not kidding. They GENUINELY believe that we make kids flavors to attract kids.

Just kidding, it's because they're losing tobacco money so they'll say whatever the fuck they can to fuck us.
Engels
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Reply #122 on: May 11, 2016, 01:01:58 PM

On a positive note, I just picked up a Vanilla Chai flavor that is quite nice.

But seriously, 18650 batteries were used for flashlights and all sorts of other stuff before vaping was even invented.

I also just picked up an Ego AIO and I think its a rather nice starter kit. Pretty cheap too for 27 bucks. Also, I forgot my kit at home so needed an at-work fix, and this was it.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something.

-Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

"let go of my dick you mother fucker!"  - Jimbo
schild
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Reply #123 on: May 11, 2016, 01:52:24 PM

The price is right on the AIO. Only problem I have is with the coils. They're prone to dry hits due to the size of the wick holes on the coil with juice that's higher than 75% PG. Otherwise it's a rad little setup. I have a bunch of the tanks and coils, and they're basically the most no-nonsense tank that has come out.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #124 on: May 11, 2016, 04:52:04 PM

The obvious solution is to get approval for (unflavored) nicotine base, then disclaim all knowledge and responsibility for what it gets mixed with after that. Then sell 'candy flavor blends' that just happen to be in the right quantities for adding to 30ml of...whatever.

Seriously, there are so many reasons the FDA regs can't work in practice it defies description. Not to mention my deep and abiding interest in organic gardening.

--Dave
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:56:06 PM by MahrinSkel »

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Furiously
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Reply #125 on: May 11, 2016, 10:14:07 PM

The obvious solution is to get approval for (unflavored) nicotine base, then disclaim all knowledge and responsibility for what it gets mixed with after that. Then sell 'candy flavor blends' that just happen to be in the right quantities for adding to 30ml of...whatever.

Seriously, there are so many reasons the FDA regs can't work in practice it defies description. Not to mention my deep and abiding interest in organic gardening.

--Dave

I think you are the 1% in the equation. For most people getting a RBA and a mechanical mod for the simplicity once their VW/VV/TC mod dies and having to do actual math to figure out what type of coil to make, and then making their own juice and not having it taste like ass is going to be a big hurdle for most people.

That being said, if the FDA regs come to fruition I'm sure there will be an interesting period of open source mods. Lots of vendors releasing their recipes, or relocating to more favorable locations.  I will say this is the first time I've ever written an elected official in a personal matter, be interesting to see how much difference there is with the speed I got as a member of the press.

MahrinSkel
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Reply #126 on: May 12, 2016, 01:24:35 AM

They're trying to claim regulatory authority for batteries. That are not only used in flashlights, but in most laptops. For metal wire that can be used for coils. For bits of silica wick you can buy at any craft or hardware store and freaking cotton you can buy by the bag at any drugstore. For voltage/current regulatory circuitry. Never mind that it's way outside of their statutory remit, and almost certainly won't survive challenge. They simply can't possibly apply controls on all of the stuff we can use for hardware, especially if there's even the thinnest fig-leaf of 'alternative use' for it (witness the variety of 'water pipes' for 'herbal blends' in your typical head shop, or the fake roses in glass tubes of a certain size in any urban convenience store).

Back in the old days, we built rigs out of bits of pipe straight out of Home Depot. Compared to the variety of ways we found to turn virtually anything with a battery into a rig, pot-heads and their bongs look outright uncreative.

They can *maybe* put a hammerlock on nicotine fluids, and put the costs of regulatory compliance out of reach for juice makers like Schild. But they have literally zero chance of locking down the whole eco-system the way they are trying to.

The thing is, it's a very thin legal reed they are building all of this on, they have literally zero authority to regulate nicotine as a drug (it would take an act of Congress, and trying to do so without buggering Big Tobacco would be impossible). It's all predicated on their authority to regulate tobacco and its derivatives as agricultural products, and although synthetic nicotine has not been cost-effective to date, that could change. The rest of it? They have no more authority to control that stuff than they have to require the manufacturers of stoves and cookware to get licenses for their products before they can be used to cook food.

--Dave

EDIT: All of this is of largely academic interest to me. I have backup rigs (mechanical and regulated). I have extra Kick modules. I have a few full-on 3rd generation regulatory chipsets. I know how to build a rig with AA batteries, duct-tape, and a soldering iron. I have spare cores and tanks galore, stainless RBA's that need nothing but wire and o-rings to last forever, and a good stock of organic pesticide in the freezer. They could ban everything tomorrow and actually make it stick, and I wouldn't have to go back to cigarettes. But I did all that out of an abundance of caution, not because I actually thought they could make a prohibition stick.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 01:39:08 AM by MahrinSkel »

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Yegolev
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Reply #127 on: May 12, 2016, 07:19:45 AM

Doomsday Prep for the Vaper.  Write a book, get money.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
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Engels
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Reply #128 on: May 12, 2016, 08:23:03 AM

Fo shizzles. I think schild Mahrin and others may want to provide advice on a set of tank/mod combos that are particularly resilient to wear and easy to build with. Not for drippers but for filthy casual tankers like myself. I've got myself a kanger subbox mini but I don't expect it to last another year of accidental dings and drops, so if you guys know of good, solid pieces that are fairly easy to rebuild coils on, now's the time to proffer that advice. Also, mods that have fewer electronics but stop short of being purely mechanical would probably be good. Survival vaping, so to speak.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something.

-Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

"let go of my dick you mother fucker!"  - Jimbo
MahrinSkel
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Reply #129 on: May 12, 2016, 09:46:41 AM

You should be able to find a metal tube the same dimensions as the Subtank glass, but the nice thing about the Subtanks is that the glass is just a straight tube, easy to replace and not specific to vaping. The O-rings are also pretty easily replaced (in a pinch an oiled rubber band could do the trick). So the thing to do if you haven't already is to get some RBA cores, the most fiddly bit of the Subtank is that the threads on the RBA core are fairly easy to crossthread and thereby strip. If you ever wanted to drop a few hundred dollars on direct importing, now is the time.

For pure RBA's, I will have to defer to Schild, the ones I have work well enough for me, but they're outdated and probably not even available anymore. And I have no idea how you sub-ohm on mechanicals, although it used to be the only way so it can obviously be done.

As far as rigs go, you can't go too far wrong just ordering a few spares of something like this: 60W Zero Clone, $25-26. And if you know your way around a soldering iron (or know people who do) a few $10 control boards wouldn't be a bad idea (in addition to repair, you can turn any three NiMH cells or single LiPo cell and an appropriately sized box into a fully regulated rig). And they're no good for sub-ohm, but at $5-6, having a few 15W Kick modules is cheap insurance against the Vapocalypse.

They may not be pretty or elegant, but if you're trying to maximize the life of a rig (or a tank), 510 extensions will save the threads a lot of wear and tear.

For your organic gardening needs, roughly $100/liter gets you this awesome all-natural pesticide. The math on how much to get can be a little involved, and of course the high concentration requires getting up close and personal to a potent neuro-stimulant with a LDL50 of about 1 milliliter (10-12 drops). If you want to simplify your life in exchange for lower, ready-to-use concentrations that won't kill you if you rub your eyes, you can order them that way up front (but it will cost you more than doing your own kitchen chemistry, and take up considerably more freezer space). Myself, I get 10% (100mg/ml) in 500ml bottles (100% PG base) that will go directly into the freezer.

--Dave
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:55:52 AM by MahrinSkel »

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
schild
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Reply #130 on: May 12, 2016, 09:49:37 AM

You don't want a Subox mini. Look, in the short term, I expect the FDA to block all shipments of vape hardware from China. I expect that to start happening regularly this August when the 90 day period is up. If I were buying a shitload of tanks and coils (that obviously don't "go bad"), I would buy a 5-10 Kanger Toptank Minis (22mm Subtank with Top Fill) and hundreds and hundreds of coils. The .5 ohm OCC ones.

For a mod that's just short of mechanical, much to my chagrin, I would recommend a series box with a mosfet. But fuck that. Just buy a case of IPV D4s or some shit. Or an Aspire CF Subohm. Or 50 of them.

The thing to remember though, is this law doesn't hurt people like me in regards to actually vaping. I will always have an endless supply of everything. It really fucks with people like Engels.

Vapers should be up in fucking arms but they are not and it's really aggravating.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #131 on: May 12, 2016, 10:52:32 AM

Oh, and stainless steel is the ticket for rigs, aluminum if you really have to but it's usually not much cheaper than steel. Don't even think about plastic. Brass is...okay, but it corrodes and you want those threads to last as long as possible, and nothing else comes close to SS for that (so look carefully at those threads on any rig you get, make sure they aren't chromed brass). Fixed central contacts or screws, nothing with a spring in it (any kind of floating pin). The Zero I linked above is all SS exterior, with a fixed pin. The 510-510 extensions can deal with any tanks that don't want to reach the pin, and extend the life of threads if it turns out they weren't steel. Cylinder batteries all the way, unless you feel really confident about your soldering skills a couple of years down the line to replace Li-Po flatpacks (IOW, don't depend on anything that has a fixed battery).

No tanks that need custom glass (if it's not a simple cylinder, it's no good). You can get a Toptank Mini clone for $15, or the authentic for $24, you might want 3 or 4. Get a 5-pack or two of mini-RBA cores as Vapocalypse insurance, and as many cores as you can justify buying.

In the longer run, we'll probably find dodges on how to import this stuff (like the way that people get 2 watt lasers now), and as I said, I really don't see prohibition working out. But for a year or two, it could get harder to get any of this stuff, and it's possible that the FDA will somehow inspire Customs to do a better job of blocking vape bits than they do intercepting weapons-grade lasers. You don't have to go as overboard as I have, especially not if it would create a financial hardship (I've been squirreling this stuff away for years).

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
schild
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Reply #132 on: May 12, 2016, 11:06:47 AM

FDA already has people inspecting vape shipments from China. I have stores that have reported every single one of their shipments in 2016 has been inspected by them :/
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Reply #133 on: June 01, 2016, 01:46:00 PM

So, a small update. There's this company named Johnson Creek ( https://www.johnsoncreeksmokejuice.com/ ). I remember them having some pretty heavy hitters involved and at least ONE previous BT exec. Anyway, about two week ago, in part from prodding by Johnson Creek, Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, penned a pretty cute letter to the FDA ( https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/media/majority-media/johnson-seeks-answers-from-fda-on-burdensome-e-cigarette-regulations ) that can basically be summed up as:

"You asked the vape industry to show their work, now you have to show your work."

They had a deadline of 5:30PM EST YESTERDAY to answer his request. Now, the thing that's REALLY cute, is the Governmental Affairs Committee can really fuck with a budget. The FDA had two options:

A) Answer his request with a series of ramblings that make them look like assholes - but at least they respond to the request - though their illegitimate claims of danger would be made public.
B) Not answer, making them look like bigger answers.

They went with option B. This was a stupid decision. The website that first got news of the lack of answering from Ron Johnson is currently being wrecked by views ( http://smokymountainvapes.com/fda-snubs-senate-inquiry-as-expected-committee-will-pursue/ ) , but here's a tldr:

Quote
The initial steps are simply “louder” requests, but should those requests remained unfulfilled, the eventual endpoint is a subpoena creating the opportunity for FDA management to be formally charged with contempt of Congress.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. While the post goes on to say direct action may not be necessary, that comment comes at the assumption that the FDA breaks down and complies. Which they won't.
Brofellos
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Reply #134 on: June 20, 2016, 01:08:20 PM

Girlfriend almost got duped into buying this, but schild was there to the rescue to stop that nonsense. https://monq.com/
Signe
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Reply #135 on: June 20, 2016, 07:18:51 PM

Wow.  That's a pricey way to spend a couple of hours. 

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
EWSpider
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Reply #136 on: July 11, 2016, 06:13:53 PM

I just started vaping the other day and picked up one of these:

http://www.kangeronline.com/products/kanger-evod-pro-starter-kit?variant=17811303173

It seems to hit ok, but I get almost no vapor out of it.  Do I need something bigger to get more vapor?

most often known as Drevik
schild
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Reply #137 on: July 11, 2016, 06:28:18 PM

That would be because Kanger completely screwed the fucking pooch on the design of that. It's actually lifted from the Joyetech Cubis, and the weird thing about that atty is - besides wicking incredibly poorly - you need to fire it for about a second before taking a drag. If it gets too cool too fast, it just does nothing.

http://www.myvaporstore.com/Kangertech-SUBOX-Mini-Starter-Kit-Black-p/krsbk1.htm

That is vastly superior. The subtank is still probably the best tank out there.
schild
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Reply #138 on: July 11, 2016, 06:31:30 PM

I do feel a little bad that you bought a terrible kit to start. Whatever store sold you that should be ashamed. I wish I had the patience to go through and post about every shitty kit/atty/box out there, but the list would be 400 pages long.

If you want something tube shaped, I can make a few recommendations there also. I prefer boxes as they stand up better and all these tanks have glass now. Don't want them falling over.
EWSpider
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Reply #139 on: July 11, 2016, 06:37:38 PM

That would be because Kanger completely screwed the fucking pooch on the design of that. It's actually lifted from the Joyetech Cubis, and the weird thing about that atty is - besides wicking incredibly poorly - you need to fire it for about a second before taking a drag. If it gets too cool too fast, it just does nothing.

http://www.myvaporstore.com/Kangertech-SUBOX-Mini-Starter-Kit-Black-p/krsbk1.htm

That is vastly superior. The subtank is still probably the best tank out there.

It seems like Kanger has stopped making these.  They're sold out in a lot of places (including direct from Kanger).  Should I still try to snag one?  I can probably find one local, but I'm definitely not going back to the first store where they sold me that shit stick.  You're exactly right, it does nothing when you first try to use it cold.

Edit:  I don't care about the tube shape, it just seemed like a good noob device.

most often known as Drevik
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