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Signe
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Muse.


Reply #70 on: May 06, 2016, 05:00:21 PM

I never use butter flavoured anything... even those microwave popcorns and stuff.  Bleh.  In my e-cig I only use various coffee and tobacco flavours.  The only thing that could make me give up my vaping is constant more better free pot.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
angry.bob
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Reply #71 on: May 06, 2016, 06:21:37 PM

The people I know are no longer burning any leaves for anything.  Which I feel is an improvement.

So they're dabbing too?

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
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Reply #72 on: May 07, 2016, 06:43:35 PM

Not googling that.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
angry.bob
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Reply #73 on: May 08, 2016, 11:12:41 AM

Not googling that.

It's not anything perverse or disgusting. It's the newest, most awesome weed concentrate thing. It's making THC concentrate wax.

You take a tube about 4-5 inches in diameter, preferably metal.
Rubber band a coffee filter over the bottom end.
Stuff it full of weed. Cap off the top end, Have a small hole in the cap.
Empty a big can of butane into the top of the tube through the whole.
Butane goes through the tube and pulls every tiny bit of thc out of every part of the weed.
Butane/THC solution collects into a glass baking pan under the coffee filter end.
Heat the baking pan to evaporate out butane without setting off the butane.
Low quality wax is cloudy and lumpy. heating the pan to evaporate the butane is the last step for this stuff. Some butane remains in the product. People around here call it "booger". Because it looks like boogers.
High quality wax has the the last remaining butane removed by continuing to heat the product in a vacuum. No butane remains and the product is smooth and clear. People here call it "glass" or sometimes "amber". Because it looks like glass or amber.

Fig. 1: "Glass" compared to "booger"



The final product has about 10 times the THC content of the equivalent weight of weed. People who've used it say that trying to get high off of regular weed is impossible afterward. Like trying to get drunk off of a beer after building up tolerance to bottles of hard liquor.

The post processing stipped weed is probably dried out, mixed with a small amount of unprocessed weed and sold to gradeschoolers who won't know it's shit.

And the best part is yes, you can smoke it in a "rig" or whatever the fuck those things are called.


Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
schild
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Reply #74 on: May 08, 2016, 12:17:28 PM

Or you can just press wax out of weed with a hair iron and parchment paper.

It's also not that new.

It's also not impossible to get high on regular weed afterward.

Also it has varying levels of THC content.

Bob, for a addictive substance detox nurse you should really brush up on you know, addictive substances.

angry.bob
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Reply #75 on: May 08, 2016, 05:37:31 PM

Or you can just press wax out of weed with a hair iron and parchment paper.
You could, it's supposed to even taste better. But BHO is easier, faster, and stronger. If you're making dab for yourself rosin works fine. I'f you're a dealer, supplier, or just want a ton of the the shit then BHO is better all the way around.

It's also not that new.
2003 isn't new, but it's the newest model of Ford Escort. As far as I know BHO is newer than any other process.

It's also not impossible to get high on regular weed afterward.
I'll take your word for it. I don't smoke anything, especially not illegal drugs that every company on the planet tests for. Impossible was a poor choice of words on my part. Like if you can drink a fifth of vodka and not get drunk you could probably still get drunk on enough beer.

Also it has varying levels of THC content.
Of course it does. lower content in, lower content out. It doesn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. But the factor of concentration in the final products are constant if the process is.

Bob, for a addictive substance detox nurse you should really brush up on you know, addictive substances.

Okay, will do. But we don't treat cannabis addiction here. Heroin and Alcohol only, stuff that's actually addictive. Because really, what sort of weak-minded degenerate gets addicted to weed to the point where they need hospitalization to stop. Seriously.


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Reply #76 on: May 08, 2016, 06:10:06 PM

Quote
2003 isn't new, but it's the newest model of Ford Escort. As far as I know BHO is newer than any other process.

Actually, I believe this is: http://herb.co/2016/04/29/dragon-balls/

But I could be wrong, all of my research is centered around dodging FDA overreach.

Quote
Because really, what sort of weak-minded degenerate gets addicted to weed to the point where they need hospitalization to stop. Seriously.

I think the same of alcohol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, but alcoholism became a disease in my lifetime.

Pretending your knowledge extends to vaping or nicotine is ridiculous at best though. Your job doesn't completely entrench you in that garbage. Mine does.
angry.bob
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Reply #77 on: May 08, 2016, 07:06:04 PM

Actually, I believe this is: http://herb.co/2016/04/29/dragon-balls/

Okay, that's new to me. It's also super pretty. I wonder if it's something anyone can do at home though.

I think the same of alcohol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, but alcoholism became a disease in my lifetime.

Are you a vampire? Alcoholism became an "official" AMA disease in the 50's but was known well before that. Dr. Bob founded AA in the 30's and even then it had been around a while. Alcohol is also one of the only addictive substances where the symptoms of withdrawal can kill you by themselves and not just make you wish you were dead.

Pretending your knowledge extends to vaping or nicotine is ridiculous at best though. Your job doesn't completely entrench you in that garbage. Mine does.

I made it pretty clear that I know fuckall about vaping. But that doesn't nicotine. We had papers to do in just about every class on smoking and how it affected patients that particular discipline. My job doesn't entrench me vaping in general or vaping nicotine. But it doesn't really have too, inhaled nicotine is inhaled nicotine. One of the things my job does do is require is I keep up with 20 credits a year of education to keep my license. It also gives me access to all sorts of information that laymen don't have and be able to understand it. All I said is that Vaping is probably safer than smoking, but how much is unknown. It's still being studied and there's a lot more time required compared to how long vaping has become popular. You don't have the products of burning tobacco, which is good. But nicotine by itself is still a poisonous alkaloid that's entirely capable of killing a grown adult in pretty small doses. How damaging having that circulate through your body and then having it's metabolites sitting in your bladder is what's unknown.

I'm not presenting myself as an expert, but it's also not as if I'm saying anything that wasn't beat into our heads in college or some stuff I picked up googling some random website. The guys I game with at the LGS all vape now instead of smoking. Which is probably better than smoking. But they also seem to think that it's as risk free as drinking coffee. Which it probably isn't. Just trying to make people aware is all.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #78 on: May 08, 2016, 11:33:55 PM

Bob, I'm wondering how you expect this pissing match to end well for you? Or is this just your way of forcing your exit, rather than just no longer posting here, like a normal person?

Because anybody who didn't like a good slapfight as much as Schild does would probably have already bounced you.

--Dave

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angry.bob
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Reply #79 on: May 09, 2016, 12:22:00 AM

Bob, I'm wondering how you expect this pissing match to end well for you? Or is this just your way of forcing your exit, rather than just no longer posting here, like a normal person?

Because anybody who didn't like a good slapfight as much as Schild does would probably have already bounced you.

--Dave

I wasn't aware that we were having any sort of fight. I know he's pretty pissed about the situation, which is totally understandable. I didn't think I was writing anything that could be considered confrontational. Well, okay, the vampire thing sort of was but I thought it was funny enough to my self to write it. But otherwise? I haven't even used profanity. 

But if we're having a pissing contest it's been too low key for me to realize it. I figured if he was that cheezed about it he'd come right out and tell me to STFU. *shrugz*

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Engels
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Reply #80 on: May 09, 2016, 10:37:50 AM

Er, hate to interrupt Bob's daily affirmation time, but can we get back on to this new legislation?

I know Schild has probably researched this more than anyone, and I would like to hear from him as to how it'll impact us vapers and what we can do to prepare in advance for the great undoing.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something.

-Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

"let go of my dick you mother fucker!"  - Jimbo
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Reply #81 on: May 09, 2016, 10:56:46 AM

Short version: We're fucked. Kinda. So is the government for not being more subtle.

Long Version: What the FDA is doing is a massive overreach. They're forcing us into a situation where every company has to spend $1,000,000+ on the same research (for juice) where the goal of the research is to prove that our product is as safe or more safe than traditional cigarettes. If you're scratching your head a that, it's OK, so are we. The concept is absolutely insane.

Much of the regulations are completely reasonable. Age requirements, CRC caps, labeling - all fair game. None of us want kids to vape. We've repeatedly told the government this. Alas, since this is really about recovering money lost from lack of cigarette sales, they don't give a shit.

The real insanity however comes with forcing 0mg and hardware through the same process. First of all, most atties are only as safe as you build them. Much like I could buy a RC car and turn it into a tiny mobile bomb, I can also make an atty or mod SUPER dangerous. But as an individual object, they pose no threat to anybody. As for 0mg and requiring something without nicotine to bear the warning "this is a tobacco product" well, that's a big spot where the government is totally fucked. Lawsuits out the ass are incoming.

So while there was a completely reasonable set of rules they could have put forth, they went for unreasonable, draconian, and prohibitive instead.

Right now, lawsuits (some of which are a slam dunk in front of a barely friendly-to-our-cause judge) are guaranteed. But the real silver bullet is Tom Cole's agricultural appropriation's amendment and HR 2058. The former of those two items completely nukes the deeming regulations from orbit and carves vapor products into its own category. Unfortunately, old people in congress (and the house) are giant fucking retards that are either bought or willfully ignorant. HR2058 will probably never get voted on. In the words of many lawyers, both are huge hail mary bills and things are pretty grim.

Much like a prisoner who learns to be a better criminal, they have turned the vape industry into big tobacco. Their mistake was not realizing that we're willing to spend just as much as BT in court.
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Reply #82 on: May 09, 2016, 11:01:45 AM

schild
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Reply #83 on: May 09, 2016, 11:20:40 AM

Finally, Bob, if you weren't so fucking amazingly wrong on every level, your posts wouldn't be so bothersome. Inhaled nicotine isn't inhaled nicotine. It's not that black and white. Inhaled nicotine in the absence of ALL THE OTHER SHIT found in cigarettes is a wildly different animal. The regular lifespan of a vaper is limited compared to a smoker. Not to mention vapers decrease their nicotine intake at a rapid fucking rate pretty organically. As a company, for every bottle of 12 MG, we sell 4.3 bottles of 6mg. For every bottle of 6mg we sell 1.97 bottles of 3mg (numbers have increased towards lower nicotine content as technology improves and vapers decrease usage). Also we watch sales drop off in areas as people stop vaping, and increase in others as smokers pick it up.

Like I said, you know fucking nothing. You may know a thing or two about cigarette addiction, which is the typical delivery of nicotine but diluted nicotine in a relatively harmless delivery method hasn't been looked at closely by people much, much smarter than you or anyone you know, so its likely none of that knowledge has or will trickle down for years.

The fact that almost none of the research out there has remotely mimicked real world usage just further shows that medical research is simply ill-equipped to keep up with an industry that for the most part is naturally gravitating towards equilibrium in response to every day usage by the general populace. The last 3 or 4 pieces of research I read was using equipment that you can't even buy in most vape shops anymore - and using it poorly I might add.
Engels
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Reply #84 on: May 09, 2016, 12:13:07 PM

Thanks for the summary. I expected this shit from nanny state Dems, but this is co-authored by a GOP congressman from Oklahomer, who seems to by the typical jingoistic 'small gummint' dickwad that should, theoretically, not be touching this. Smells like bribery to me.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something.

-Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

"let go of my dick you mother fucker!"  - Jimbo
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Reply #85 on: May 09, 2016, 12:20:44 PM

No, the republicans are firmly on the side of Cole. His amendment made it out of committee pretty easily. The real trick will be the house and senate. I am not worried about Obama. He will not veto the agricultural appropriations bill because of some random rider. Not this year.
Nebu
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Reply #86 on: May 09, 2016, 12:26:20 PM

Would I be correct in assuming that all of this FDA overreach is a protection for the tobacco growers?  Do you see any correlation between supporters of the legislation and states where tobacco is a dominant crop (i.e. carolinas)?

Personally, I think that vaping is a great thing for nicotine addicts.  It's an obvious improvement over tobacco and should be treated as such. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Yegolev
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Reply #87 on: May 09, 2016, 12:30:23 PM

I assume tobacco farmer protection plus support from those who benefit(ed) from tobacco taxation.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Reply #88 on: May 09, 2016, 12:33:28 PM

Would I be correct in assuming that all of this FDA overreach is a protection for the tobacco growers?  Do you see any correlation between supporters of the legislation and states where tobacco is a dominant crop (i.e. carolinas)?

Personally, I think that vaping is a great thing for nicotine addicts.  It's an obvious improvement over tobacco and should be treated as such. 
Nope. All this overreach is for states to not lose all the tobacco money they were getting from cigarettes and misusing as a crutch for their inability to budget.

Taxing ecigs is nigh impossible on a nationwide basis because there's just no reason to, so prohibition is the next best thing. That the FDA, a unit meant to provide a measure of transparency to its regulation, to be so opaque is simply absurd.

Tobacco farmers are fine and will always be fine. Besides, now all the cigarette manufacturers get two uses for tobacco.
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Reply #89 on: May 09, 2016, 12:48:15 PM

I don't know how much tobacco is needed to manufacture nicotine, but I do see that people who vape are using less nicotine over time.  These people want to quit, and if you could have adjusted the nicotine in a cigarette then I think many people would have been doing that for decades.  So, maybe tobacco farmers are OK and maybe not.  They might just be Corn Jr.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
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Reply #90 on: May 09, 2016, 12:54:51 PM

Tobacco growth, as a crop, will grow with vaping.

That said, every juice company would prefer to use synthetic nicotine or alternatives when the price comes down.
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Reply #91 on: May 09, 2016, 01:03:52 PM

Nope. All this overreach is for states to not lose all the tobacco money they were getting from cigarettes and misusing as a crutch for their inability to budget.

That makes a lot of sense.  Tobacco settlement money is big in many states as is the tax revenue associated with tobacco.  

Thanks for that.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

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Reply #92 on: May 09, 2016, 01:20:53 PM

The real problem is states have been misusing the ever loving shit out of that money since they started getting it. Destroying an emerging market that could completely destroy smoking as we know it for a few bucks is beyond the pale.
angry.bob
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Reply #93 on: May 09, 2016, 03:09:54 PM

Finally, Bob, if you weren't so fucking amazingly wrong on every level, your posts wouldn't be so bothersome. Inhaled nicotine isn't inhaled nicotine. It's not that black and white. Inhaled nicotine in the absence of ALL THE OTHER SHIT found in cigarettes is a wildly different animal. The regular lifespan of a vaper is limited compared to a smoker. Not to mention vapers decrease their nicotine intake at a rapid fucking rate pretty organically.



Indeed, it appears that in the absence of having to use tar droplets as a carrier the nicotine is absorbed much faster/easier, maybe a change in the pH or the increased available surface area in alveoli. I'll have to find out why now.

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Reply #94 on: May 09, 2016, 07:16:12 PM

That graph doesn't have nearly enough context and reveals nothing of the method of delivery other than the catchall "vaping."
angry.bob
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Reply #95 on: May 09, 2016, 08:46:49 PM

It's from a pubmed article: Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between experienced consumers (vapers) and naïve users (smokers). The article has methodology, material, and procedures used.

Here's a simple article about nicotine metabolization that includes factors that can greatly influence how long it takes. I didn't read it all the way, it might have something about vapers being able to metabolize nicotine faster because there's no competition for the use of enzymes that metabolize nicotine from other things that would be in tobacco smoke that use those same enzymes. If vapers do metabolize nicotine faster there has to be something that explains it. Once it's in a person't body it's going to be metabolized at the same rate regardless of it's source if all other factors are equal.

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Reply #96 on: May 09, 2016, 10:39:20 PM

Quote
Various formulations of nicotine replacement therapy (NRT), such as nicotine gum, transdermal patch, nasal spray, inhaler, sublingual tablets, and lozenges, are buffered to alkaline pH to facilitate absorption of nicotine through cell membranes.

I don't believe they are considering vaping.  They are looking at NRT, which is nebulized in a pH corrected solution rather than vaporized.

Is anyone else seeing this in the article?

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angry.bob
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Reply #97 on: May 09, 2016, 11:45:43 PM

Quote
Various formulations of nicotine replacement therapy (NRT), such as nicotine gum, transdermal patch, nasal spray, inhaler, sublingual tablets, and lozenges, are buffered to alkaline pH to facilitate absorption of nicotine through cell membranes.

I don't believe they are considering vaping.  They are looking at NRT, which is nebulized in a pH corrected solution rather than vaporized.

Is anyone else seeing this in the article?

Yes, I don't think it's directly related to vaping. I posted the second article more as a basic information source than anything else. I thought it had a good general overview and also explained the effect pH has on absorption. It just seemed easier to do that than gas on about it for half a dozen more posts where people are going to think I made up basic chemistry and physiology to more effectively shitpost. So now everyone can read all this stuff themselves, plus they have a solid source for medical articles. Anyway, the stuff that juices seem to be made from are on the alkaline side. I don't know if manufacturers lower the pH after mixing or not, it's probably on an company by company basis.

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angry.bob
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Reply #98 on: May 09, 2016, 11:55:16 PM

The real problem is states have been misusing the ever loving shit out of that money since they started getting it. Destroying an emerging market that could completely destroy smoking as we know it for a few bucks is beyond the pale.

This may have already been answered somewhere else, but has anyone looked to see where the people pushing this are from? There's quite a few States with a vested interest in keeping big tobacco happy. It wouldn't surprise me if they let a grass roots cottage industry do all the legwork in building the market and then push regulations that individuals and smaller companies could never afford, but to RJR, Phillip Morris, and Lorillard are a day's worth of national expense claims.

I don't think any state actually wants big tobacco destroyed, they do want to pretend they do while they get their beaks wet. And it's so much easier when you're collecting taxes from 3 entities instead of 30,000. From that point of view it makes a lot more sense to push out the 30,000 and let the 3 move into the vacuum.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 11:56:55 PM by angry.bob »

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #99 on: May 10, 2016, 01:43:38 AM

The real problem now is pharma, not the tobacco companies. None of their prescription and NRT stuff works for shit, and vaping is a direct threat to an incredibly profitable niche they've carved out for themselves.

Big Tobacco would find a way to make the new model work for them (they have a rather huge lead on how to distribute and market nicotine delivery systems), but Big Pharma wants it dead.

--Dave

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Reply #100 on: May 10, 2016, 01:46:07 AM

Big pharma already lost their chance at Vaping years back. BT will crush them.
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Reply #101 on: May 10, 2016, 08:40:29 AM

Taxing ecigs is nigh impossible on a nationwide basis because there's just no reason to, so prohibition is the next best thing. That the FDA, a unit meant to provide a measure of transparency to its regulation, to be so opaque is simply absurd.

I understand your arguments except this one. Why is taxing ecigs impossible?

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Nebu
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Reply #102 on: May 10, 2016, 08:45:22 AM

Seems like taxing juice would be similar to taxing alcohol.  I don't see the complication either.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #103 on: May 10, 2016, 10:52:37 AM

Because they'd have to carve out 0mg juice, as well as juice with additives that aren't nicotine. They'd have to consider non-tobacco-derived nicotine.

They'd have to do research.

The FDA has clearly not done research.

That seems impossible for them.
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Reply #104 on: May 10, 2016, 12:14:46 PM

Oh you mean functional government institutions!  why so serious?

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something.

-Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

"let go of my dick you mother fucker!"  - Jimbo
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