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Author Topic: Ghostcrawler's Leaving  (Read 105476 times)
Fordel
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Reply #70 on: December 02, 2013, 06:14:20 PM

I needed these shoulders so I could hit the magic number to stop crushing blows. There was a random assortment of paladin tanking pieces that allowed you to hit that number before raid gear.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
SurfD
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Reply #71 on: December 02, 2013, 07:50:06 PM

I needed these shoulders so I could hit the magic number to stop crushing blows. There was a random assortment of paladin tanking pieces that allowed you to hit that number before raid gear.
AHh god, I remember the Defense cap.

Main one that sticks out for me was good old Naxx 40 in vanilla.  I was lucky enough to be in a guild that actually raided it, and during one of our runs down the spider wing, one of our tanks got a drop off of Anub (bracers i think) that he decided to equip on the spot.    Turns out, it put him something like 1% under the crushing blow / crit cap for defense.  We then get to the second boss, who, about half way through a really solid attempt, proceeds to 1shot said tank with a Critical Crushing blow.  I dont think he ever heard the end of that.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Fordel
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Reply #72 on: December 02, 2013, 07:59:12 PM

It was specifically the crushing blow cap, because paladins needed like 30% more avoidance/block then warriors, because Blizzard was retarded and refused to admit Druids and Paladins had tanking trees.


Druids got to tank with that level 40 staff because of how bonus armor was affected by Bear (and Moonkin!) form.  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Paelos
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Reply #73 on: December 02, 2013, 08:01:35 PM

And that's why we didn't really have tanks other than warriors back then.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Fordel
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Reply #74 on: December 02, 2013, 08:28:18 PM

Tanks don't need taunts, right? Even when they gave paladins a taunt, it wasn't a taunt, it was a reverse psuedo taunt that you dropped on your allies.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Fabricated
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Reply #75 on: December 02, 2013, 08:31:18 PM

Worst dungeon IMO is a tie between Mana Tombs and Shadow Lab. Shadow Lab might get the edge since it had some of the touchiest pulls in the entire game.

I was a warrior tank and I regularly ran Heroic Shattered Halls because I thought it was really fun to tank when I had a healer that was on point (or just a pally). This was before I overgeared it too. I get why people hated it though; the gladiator pulls where you basically had to wait for them to nearly kill eachother before pulling could be really fucking rough on spike damage and people just hated the gauntlet/time trial part.

A full BRD run was atrocious, lower spire was really bad, Dire Maul had some really touchy pulls, and original pre-all nerfs Strat was fucking ridiculous and almost EverQuestian in its hatred of the players but I hated no dungeons more than the Auchindoun (or whatever) series. I never maxed out lower city rep.

I rather enjoyed all of WoTLK's dungeons minus Gundrak. Great visual design throughout all of them.

Cata's were all terrible. The loot fountain bonus dungeons were tolerable, but fuck the reborn troll dungeons that gave shitty non-epic epics.

I haven't even seen all of Pandaria's, but I imagine I'd have a bad experience now since I'm prot specced and my gear is questing stuff.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
proudft
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Reply #76 on: December 02, 2013, 09:25:58 PM

We had to run Shadow Labs a ton for somebody's equipment (probably Fordel again).  We kinda got the system down for that one, and I kinda liked it once we got it figured out.  Mana Tombs, though, Mana Tombs was (and still is) awful.  Waaaay too many wandering yahoos.

I can't remember ANY of the Cataclysm dungeons.  They were so not-fun they apparently left no impression on me.
Rendakor
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Reply #77 on: December 02, 2013, 09:54:13 PM

I remember Grim Batol; the only zone I hate more than Occulus. With a group who knew how to use the dragons it wasn't too bad, but the trash was just fucking awful if you had bads that didn't use the breath weapons properly.

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Sjofn
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Reply #78 on: December 02, 2013, 09:57:49 PM

I sort of remember (most of) the Cataclysm dungeons, probably because I tanked them a billion times on my paladin, but I could not for the life of me tell you any of their names, for some reason. There was the one where you had a bombing run on the backs of dragons in some sort of dwarf underground ruin, there was an underwater one that was mostly easy except for these two pulls that just crapped out a lot of damage and would startle the healer out of their stupor, there was the underground one with Milhouse, there was an Uldum one where I always asked if they wanted a speed run or a full run (you could skip like half the bosses), there was a different Uldum one that was sort of a city that was probably the only one I liked even after running it a thousand times, there was yet another one that I think was technically in Uldum that was all air elemental shit, I liked the end boss of that one ... oh, and that other one that had a boss where you had to dance in and out of beams that broke every single PUG I ever did that goddamn heroic in. Blackrock Whatever, I think?


edit: Oh yeah, Grim Batol was the dragon one!

God Save the Horn Players
Soulflame
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Reply #79 on: December 02, 2013, 10:07:07 PM

Fake arena had the problem that you could run into matchups that were very difficult for your group comp.
Numtini
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Reply #80 on: December 03, 2013, 05:39:23 AM

Quote
There are three kinds of dungeons.

Dungeons that are fun ONCE, then awful when you have to farm them.
Dungeons that are awful when you do them at the intended level/gear, but totally fun when you over gear it.
Dungeons that are fine when you do them at the intended level/gear, but just a frustrating waste of time once you over gear it.

That's a very good summation. Honestly, if you want people to farm a dungeon for points, create something like the missions in COX, AO, or LDON: a pseudo-random tile set with a bunch of stock critters to blow through. Don't create a "real" dungeon. Save the real dungeons as mini-raids. Make them hard, make them fun, and make them an experience. Nobody does this anymore though because WoW doesn't and god help us if we do something different than WoW.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
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Reply #81 on: December 03, 2013, 10:57:53 AM

Grim Batol was one of the only Cata dungeons that actually looked cool. WoTLK's 5-mans put pretty much all of Cata's to shame in the visuals/layout department.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Paelos
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Reply #82 on: December 03, 2013, 11:10:24 AM

I still love the music and the atmosphere of Wrath. Nothing since then has come close, especially since I'm not a fan of the Asian themes in MoP.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #83 on: December 03, 2013, 11:11:57 AM

Thinking on the cataclysm dungeon visuals two problems immediately come to mind.  First the sky temple which should be all accounts seem cool, was so repetitive in it's architecture that it got bland fast.  Second was whatever the pyramid was called and for that matter anything having to do with titans in wow.....

You can't just slap magical gears and pistons in a dungeon and say "oh look titans built this"  this first couple times it's neat and you actually wonder what it means, what do these things do?!  Eventually you realize that the titans are just annoying steampunk fans that put gears and shit everywhere that don't actually do anything.

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Simond
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Reply #84 on: December 03, 2013, 03:47:56 PM

I still love the music and the atmosphere of Wrath. Nothing since then has come close, especially since I'm not a fan of the Asian themes in MoP.
Time to post this again:

Quote
I'm talking about the second expansion of this MMO. It's set on a frozen continent to the north which is inhabited by viking giants and icy dwarves. There are also lots of dragons here, including their graveyards and a massive draconic temple. A strange, mystical ore threads though the earth in veins which was, according to the stories, created by the actions of a powerful god-beast. There is a monstrous abomination imprisoned beneath the earth who threatens to destroy the planet if it was ever released. There's also a large, out-of-place rain-forest hidden away in a deep valley with an avatar of a nature goddess watching over it. There's also a friendly, cheerful animal-man tribe who live by fishing the icy waters and are willing to help those who help them. One raid boss, a spank-n-tank (& a raid gear check), has the words "avatar of war" associated with it in-game. This expansion is widely viewed by the majority of the fan-base of the game in question as the best expansion ever released and some people claim that it's been downhill ever since.

What's the expansion and which MMO was it for?

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Hawkbit
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Reply #85 on: December 03, 2013, 04:31:12 PM

I still love the music and the atmosphere of Wrath. Nothing since then has come close, especially since I'm not a fan of the Asian themes in MoP.

After playing MoP for the last two months, it's amazing how technically competent the environment is, yet also how utterly bland.  I can't even be bothered to care.

Yet flying around is awesome and there's a lot of hidden stuff in the environment.
pants
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Reply #86 on: December 03, 2013, 10:13:06 PM

I still love the music and the atmosphere of Wrath. Nothing since then has come close, especially since I'm not a fan of the Asian themes in MoP.
Time to post this again:

Quote
I'm talking about the second expansion of this MMO. It's set on a frozen continent to the north which is inhabited by viking giants and icy dwarves. There are also lots of dragons here, including their graveyards and a massive draconic temple. A strange, mystical ore threads though the earth in veins which was, according to the stories, created by the actions of a powerful god-beast. There is a monstrous abomination imprisoned beneath the earth who threatens to destroy the planet if it was ever released. There's also a large, out-of-place rain-forest hidden away in a deep valley with an avatar of a nature goddess watching over it. There's also a friendly, cheerful animal-man tribe who live by fishing the icy waters and are willing to help those who help them. One raid boss, a spank-n-tank (& a raid gear check), has the words "avatar of war" associated with it in-game. This expansion is widely viewed by the majority of the fan-base of the game in question as the best expansion ever released and some people claim that it's been downhill ever since.

What's the expansion and which MMO was it for?

I see what you did there!

What was the Avatar of Warish boss in Wrath?
Tarami
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Reply #87 on: December 03, 2013, 10:23:15 PM

Patchwerk. One of his lines: "Kel'Thuzad make Patchwerk his avatar of war!"

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Ironwood
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Reply #88 on: December 04, 2013, 01:31:38 AM

I think they went mental on phasing though.  Phasing was such a fucking good idea, but when it leaves your mates behind with no recourse it's suddenly NOT GOOD.

They never really thought about it and just ploughed on throughout, making more phasing.  Then Pandaria came and almost the whole fucking thing is phased.

Ah well.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Simond
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Reply #89 on: December 04, 2013, 11:05:34 AM

Except for the bit where you can jump across phases when grouped, which was added in...early-mid Cataclysm I think?

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Ironwood
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Reply #90 on: December 04, 2013, 02:30:30 PM

Whut ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Sjofn
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Reply #91 on: December 04, 2013, 02:34:00 PM

If there's a loser in your group who is in a different phase than you, you can go to their phase.

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Ironwood
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Reply #92 on: December 04, 2013, 02:40:29 PM

Wait, WHAT ?

Since Cataclysm ?

Don't I feel like the fucking asshole.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Ironwood
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Reply #93 on: December 04, 2013, 02:41:27 PM

No, Seriously, what the fuck ?

Where's that option ??

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Soulflame
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Reply #94 on: December 04, 2013, 03:05:14 PM

IIRC, the person who starts/leads the group sets the phase for everyone who joins.

I think it was mostly used for completing some of the more difficult group quests in Icecrown.
pants
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Reply #95 on: December 04, 2013, 03:32:03 PM

Patchwerk. One of his lines: "Kel'Thuzad make Patchwerk his avatar of war!"

Ah yes, I'd forgot about ol Patches.
Sjofn
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Reply #96 on: December 04, 2013, 03:50:12 PM

Wait, WHAT ?

Since Cataclysm ?

Don't I feel like the fucking asshole.

Don't feel too bad, it's not super obvious, if I remember right.

God Save the Horn Players
Ironwood
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Reply #97 on: December 05, 2013, 02:42:58 AM

I've been struggling with that for years tho.

I can't stop giggling at what a dick I am.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Fabricated
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Reply #98 on: December 05, 2013, 03:44:33 AM

Cata is still bad and it's still good Ghostcrawler is leaving, so we still have that.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Ironwood
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Reply #99 on: December 05, 2013, 04:13:06 AM

And Paris.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Azazel
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Reply #100 on: December 07, 2013, 07:49:50 PM

Except for Tanks.  The drop in # of tanks is testament to fact that tanking in Cata/ MOP sucked and was inferior to every design prior to this generation.  Add on the sameyness now that they all tank the same way w/ active mitigation on top of their need to corral, time and manage mobs. Whee.

Not coincidentally, tanks were more common in WOTLK when they just had to be in something's face and then worry about the rest.  They all had different flavors, too.  Mitigation, block, evasion, self-heal.  There were problems to even-out or give additional tools for, yes, but they at least felt different enough to be fun. And while they were still scarcer than DPS it wasn't as pronounced as it was when I quit.


I can chime in here :

Started on Pandaria again recently and tanking suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks.

Sucks.

It sucks.

It really, really sucks.

This from a guy who loves tanking and used to love that role above all others.

I rolled my warrior slightly pre-cata with the sole intent on tanking. DPS being a fun bit of off-spec, but more as an excuse to carry two gigantic swords around. I learned my way to tank in Cata and did a pretty good job of it. When MoP came around, I stopped tanking, because it was un-fun, and annoyingly painful. I haven't played in 6? 8? months now. Just saying.

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Setanta
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Reply #101 on: December 07, 2013, 09:17:54 PM

In Vanilla I tanked on my Warrior.

In TBC I tanked on my Druid and Pally.

In WotLK I tanked on my Druid, Pally, DK and Warrior and loved it because each and every one played differently.

In Cata I tanked on my DK and Pally.

In MoP I didn't tank on anything and quit because I loved tanking but just CBF'd with the new model that made every class the same.

So what if I could swipe/maul/lacerate tank on my Druid and soak up damage.

So what if I could mitigate damage and round up mobs as a pally.

So what if I could self heal/blood shield as a DK.

So what if I could smash-tank as a warrior.

Each was unique and fun.

And I miss it.

Fuck you Cataclysm and Pandaria.


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Rokal
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Reply #102 on: December 07, 2013, 10:35:36 PM

In Vanilla I tanked on my Warrior.

In TBC I tanked on my Druid and Pally.

In WotLK I tanked on my Druid, Pally, DK and Warrior and loved it because each and every one played differently.

In Cata I tanked on my DK and Pally.

In MoP I didn't tank on anything and quit because I loved tanking but just CBF'd with the new model that made every class the same.

So what if I could swipe/maul/lacerate tank on my Druid and soak up damage.

So what if I could mitigate damage and round up mobs as a pally.

So what if I could self heal/blood shield as a DK.

So what if I could smash-tank as a warrior.

Each was unique and fun.

And I miss it.

Fuck you Cataclysm and Pandaria.



New page, same rose-tinted glasses.

Those styles still exist for MoP, moreso than before really. Before MoP most tank abilities were very samey: they did damage and generated higher threat (which didn't matter after threat adjustments in Cata). Outside of threat+damage abilities, tanks had personal cooldowns to reduce damage every couple of minutes. DKs, the original active mitigation tanks, were the only exception with Deathstrike (and barely so). I think the differences now are more pronounced than they've ever been, speaking as someone with 3 tanks at level cap. Warriors are the block/mobility tanks. Druids are the mitigation/evasion tanks. Paladins are the self-heals/mitigation tanks. DKs are the self-heal/anti-caster tanks. Monks are the evasion/self-healing tanks.

I can respect that people don't want to relearn their class or see huge changes after 7+ years of playing, but you're deluding yourself if you think the pre-MoP tanking model was as awesome & distinct as you're claiming. It was easier, but MoP tanking doesn't need to be hard to get the job done. If you want to use damage/aoe abilities and run around like a WOTLK tank you can.

The difference in "flavor" between each tanking class is bigger than its ever been. Well, save maybe Vanilla where the difference between Warriors and non-Warriors was potentially bigger, but I don't think anyone is going to argue in favor of Vanilla tanking with a straight face.
Setanta
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Reply #103 on: December 07, 2013, 11:11:59 PM

You say that and can quote yourself as many times as you like :)

In those times I had fun tanking and well and truly felt the difference between classes. In fact, I just realised I did tank MoP instances on my Pally and DK - then quit.  You can talk to me about rose coloured glasses all you like, but I used to love tanking, all 4 classes - then quit.

It wasn't about changes to class or mechanics, I tanked Ragnaros and Deathwing kills for my guild. It stopped being fun. So I quit the game because no matter how you look at it, tanking in this iteration is generic and no fun.

In pre-Cata, tanking was enjoyable, I loved being a warrior tank throughout all 3 raids (except AQ40) in vanilla. Loved Pally and Druid through all raids including Sunwell (although we didn't finish sunwell before the LK released. Had a freaking ball with every single raid in TBC. To the extent that I'd log, farm, read over strats, look for additional tweaks to playstyle. Loved that DK tanks could tank (initially) in any aspect (I started unholy, moved to blood). Looked forward to trying another class out and feeling the difference.

In Cata the changes were annoying but tolerable and I really concentrated on DK and Pally - it was ok. In MoP I tanked instances and didn't give a shit as it just wasn't fun.

I guess you can throw the rose-coloured glasses idea out there as much as you like, but if I liked tanking in MoP, I'd still be playing. But I don't and I quit.

I'm glad you like the game and all, it's great that you are passionate about the new model of tanking. But the reality is we hold different views and no matter how many times you tell me that MoP is better than WotLK I will choose to disagree with you every single time because in my experience and time playing the game, Cata and MoP were backwards steps from the fun I once had in the game :)

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Zetor
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Reply #104 on: December 08, 2013, 01:22:04 AM

What I don't like is all the freaking busywork they added... and in many cases, the 'active mitigation' stuff is just that. As a prot warrior you better keep up shield barrier as much as possible or... else? That said, I play a blood DK, which didn't change much from Cata -- which is good, 'cos I honestly think the Cata design of DK tanks was a huge improvement over WOTLK.

Speaking of bad aspects of class design: fuck short-duration self-buffs that you need close to 100% uptime on. It started with rogue slice and dice, then expanded to cat druid savage roar in wotlk, and then basically every aspect of monks (all three specs) in mop, which eventually caused me to abandon an otherwise interesting class. I have no idea who enjoys this stuff!

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