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Author Topic: Ghostcrawler's Leaving  (Read 39581 times)
Ironwood
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Reply #105 on: December 08, 2013, 06:21:55 AM

Rokal, you're just not right.

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Reply #106 on: December 08, 2013, 08:15:05 AM

Speaking of bad aspects of class design: fuck short-duration self-buffs that you need close to 100% uptime on. It started with rogue slice and dice, then expanded to cat druid savage roar in wotlk, and then basically every aspect of monks (all three specs) in mop, which eventually caused me to abandon an otherwise interesting class. I have no idea who enjoys this stuff!

It's not about enjoyment, it's about "proving whose 'leet."  Can't keep it up you just don't have the skillz.

Which is why it's such utter bullshit. .

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Reply #107 on: December 08, 2013, 02:58:30 PM

It wasn't about changes to class or mechanics, I tanked Ragnaros and Deathwing kills for my guild. It stopped being fun. So I quit the game because no matter how you look at it, tanking in this iteration is generic and no fun.

I get that you liked the old tanking model more, and don't find tanking in MoP fun. Your reason for that shouldn't be "all the tanks feel the same now" when they are more different than ever though. That's where I claim rose-tinted glasses, not your opinion about tanking being more fun in the past (which is entirely subjective and may be completely true for you and others).
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Reply #108 on: December 08, 2013, 08:20:59 PM

It wasn't about changes to class or mechanics, I tanked Ragnaros and Deathwing kills for my guild. It stopped being fun. So I quit the game because no matter how you look at it, tanking in this iteration is generic and no fun.

I get that you liked the old tanking model more, and don't find tanking in MoP fun. Your reason for that shouldn't be "all the tanks feel the same now" when they are more different than ever though. That's where I claim rose-tinted glasses, not your opinion about tanking being more fun in the past (which is entirely subjective and may be completely true for you and others).
I think it has more to do with the whole "my tank is not good at tanking because of his gear, but because of his button rotation" now.   Take warriors (and paladins) vs druids for example.   Under the old model, Shield tanks were "block" mitigation tanks, and druids were dodge avoidance tanks.  Your basic ability to tank simply by being there got noticably better with gear improvements.  I mained as a druid, and it was VERY easy to notice a chage of around 15 to 20% dodge going from starting raid / dungeon gear to end of expantion tier gear.   Under the current active mitigation model, Your character no longer improves in a noticeably tanky way with an increase in gear.  It is now all about resource management to pop your cooldown as needed.  I think my bear has gained something like 3 or 4 % total dodge increase over my initial dungeon set through MOP.  The bulk of my defensive ability now comes from being able to push Savage defense every 6 to 8 seconds for 40% more dodge untill i eventually cant push it any more.   When, as a tank, I stop careing about "tank stats" and prioritise everything into stats that improve my resource generation so i can pop savage defense more, it starts to feel wierd.

I went from being a tank by virtue of my gear / what i was, to beign a tank by virtue of what buttons i push in my tank rotation.   A druid tank is functionally no different then a warrior tank, who is functionally no different then a monk than, who is functionally no different then a Paladin tank.    Chose tank damage mitigation model of choice (block / dodge / absorb), add model specific "must keep up" rotational ability, few strong / weak defensive cooldowns, bake in threat modifier so you never have to worry about it any more, crank out tank.    Honestly, the DK is the only relatively unique tank model since their active mitigation is the only entirely reactive one and revolves almost completely around managing blood strikes and the absorb shield, instead of keeping a rotational cooldown up.   Even monks are basicly just a badtardized dodge tank with a funky absorb mechanic (keep up stagger till the damage gets too high then purify off and begin again).

Essentially, under the current model, there is absolutely no reason why EVERY FUCKING CLASS in the game could not be given a tanking spec with the addition of 3 or 4 abilities.   When the only thing really seperating you and another spec in your class from being a tank is a couple of specific cooldowns, it really sort of cheapens the experience.  And that is really what bugs most of us who like the old system i think.

Us people who enjoyed our old school tanks liked it that our tank was tanky by virtue of the gear he wore and the spec he was in, not because of the buttons he pushed.  If we wanted that, we would have rolled a dk tank, because they were designed that way.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 08:24:14 PM by SurfD »

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Reply #109 on: December 08, 2013, 08:28:55 PM

I think that's a good point. Gear plays a large part in why it's not fun anymore. Even if you don't care much about improving your tank, it's hard to improve it much with gear.

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Reply #110 on: December 08, 2013, 10:15:30 PM

I think that's a good point. Gear plays a large part in why it's not fun anymore. Even if you don't care much about improving your tank, it's hard to improve it much with gear.
Pretty much.  Previously, gear had a HUGE impact in how well you "tanked".  Now, all it really does is make you hit harder and increases your stamina for most tanks, it doesnt really increase your "tankishness" any more, mostly just increases how easily you regen resources to spend on tank cooldowns.

In a way, it makes me wonder if they have deliberately attempted to push it that way, what with the planned removal of Parry / Dodge as gearable stats.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 11:24:57 PM by SurfD »

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Reply #111 on: December 09, 2013, 02:38:09 AM

A druid tank is functionally no different then a warrior tank, who is functionally no different then a monk than, who is functionally no different then a Paladin tank.

This pretty much says what I couldn't put into words and did much to make me realise why I don't like the new model. I wish I liked the game enough to come back and tank more - I missed the situational awareness aspect of it and the gathering of mobs. It's ironic that I enjoy GW2 more with its no-trinity model but there are times I strap on a shield on my warrior and guardian and pretend I'm tanking :).

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Reply #112 on: December 09, 2013, 03:53:02 AM

Just so I make sure I've got this straight: people here have an active desire to return to the old Everquest tanking paradigm of "stand in front of mob and mash taunt, and as long as you've got good enough gear you win"?

Is that essentially correct?

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Reply #113 on: December 09, 2013, 03:56:39 AM

It wasn't about changes to class or mechanics, I tanked Ragnaros and Deathwing kills for my guild. It stopped being fun. So I quit the game because no matter how you look at it, tanking in this iteration is generic and no fun.

I get that you liked the old tanking model more, and don't find tanking in MoP fun. Your reason for that shouldn't be "all the tanks feel the same now" when they are more different than ever though. That's where I claim rose-tinted glasses, not your opinion about tanking being more fun in the past (which is entirely subjective and may be completely true for you and others).

I really, really, really don't get where you think they are different tho.  I play all the tanks and frankly they all play the same and it's just not fun.  Maybe it's gear, maybe it's the fights, maybe it's the people I play with, I don't know :  But it's just not fun.

And it used to be fun.

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Reply #114 on: December 09, 2013, 06:44:36 AM

Just so I make sure I've got this straight: people here have an active desire to return to the old Everquest tanking paradigm of "stand in front of mob and mash taunt, and as long as you've got good enough gear you win"?

Is that essentially correct?

If these games are going to continue to refuse to implement any real skill based gameplay, then the least they could do is have the common decency to stop wasting my time with button rotations and let me tab out and read the forums or go get a sandwich.
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Reply #115 on: December 09, 2013, 06:53:30 AM

Just so I make sure I've got this straight: people here have an active desire to return to the old Everquest tanking paradigm of "stand in front of mob and mash taunt, and as long as you've got good enough gear you win"?

Is that essentially correct?
There haven't been very many "stand in one place and hit taunt" fights in WoW from BC on. I'm trying really hard to think of one that isn't Patchwerk or the odd boss like the statue dude from Ulduar who doesn't move.

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Reply #116 on: December 09, 2013, 07:21:36 AM

And as a tank you're responsible for positioning the boss, getting adds, etc.; in a raid situation tanks are often also raid leaders (I was, anyway) so you've gotta watch and yell at the rest of your raid. Having to juggle a complicated rotation on top of that is shitty.

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Reply #117 on: December 09, 2013, 10:29:35 AM

I'd hate to imagine trying to do the firefighter achievement now with a proper raid group and the #'s autoadjusted like the challenge-mode dungeons. I guess the warrior absorb skill would be nice for the laser beam.

Or wait, Freya Hardmode. That'd be a gasser.

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Reply #118 on: December 09, 2013, 10:49:03 AM

It's fun watching people trying to walk off the chessboard in Karazhan.


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Reply #119 on: December 09, 2013, 10:51:05 AM

I'm really trying to remember any brainless tank and spanks from BC onwards. I think Brutallis ironically is one? I don't recall if the tanks needed to even move on that.

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Reply #120 on: December 09, 2013, 11:14:15 AM

I'm really trying to remember any brainless tank and spanks from BC onwards. I think Brutallis ironically is one? I don't recall if the tanks needed to even move on that.

Void Reaver, Patchwerk, Loatheb, Supremus (pretty much for the tank, there is some kiting for others).

Those are the main ones that jump to mind.

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Rokal
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Reply #121 on: December 09, 2013, 12:39:42 PM

I went from being a tank by virtue of my gear / what i was, to beign a tank by virtue of what buttons i push in my tank rotation.   A druid tank is functionally no different then a warrior tank, who is functionally no different then a monk than, who is functionally no different then a Paladin tank.    Chose tank damage mitigation model of choice (block / dodge / absorb), add model specific "must keep up" rotational ability, few strong / weak defensive cooldowns, bake in threat modifier so you never have to worry about it any more, crank out tank.

The tanks were all "functionally" the same in the past too, just as the healers were. The differences in how they tank and what those buttons do (dodge buff vs. increased block vs. self heal) are what make the tanks feel different.

Essentially, under the current model, there is absolutely no reason why EVERY FUCKING CLASS in the game could not be given a tanking spec with the addition of 3 or 4 abilities.   When the only thing really seperating you and another spec in your class from being a tank is a couple of specific cooldowns, it really sort of cheapens the experience.  And that is really what bugs most of us who like the old system i think.

Us people who enjoyed our old school tanks liked it that our tank was tanky by virtue of the gear he wore and the spec he was in, not because of the buttons he pushed.  If we wanted that, we would have rolled a dk tank, because they were designed that way.

Your status as a tank is *still* determined by your gear and your spec. A Fury warrior that switches to defensive stance and taunts a boss is still going to eat dirt because they don't have the gear or the passive mitigation from spec that you are so fond of. Same with the Windwalker monk.

Honestly, you're telling me that every class in the game could be a tank, like that's a new possibility. Here is the Pre-MoP recipe for a tank:

Threat modifier to attacks + passive damage reduction +  long-cooldown defensive buffs = tank.

All it would have taken for most classes to be a tank was a buff that increased threat and reduced damage taken. Most of the damage classes already had the long-cooldown defensive buffs part covered. In MoP there is a bit more separating tank and non-tank specs in the form of all the active mitigation.

Pretty much.  Previously, gear had a HUGE impact in how well you "tanked".  Now, all it really does is make you hit harder and increases your stamina for most tanks, it doesnt really increase your "tankishness" any more, mostly just increases how easily you regen resources to spend on tank cooldowns.

It's funny that you would say gear feels like it matters less now when I feel like the opposite is true. Pre-MoP you didn't "feel" upgrades, because each new piece of gear was a very minor increase to passive mitigation (and new bosses were balanced to hit you for the same % of health as the old bosses with old gear).

Now upgrades are easier to feel, and they do more. It's not just "more resources" (which is one stat, haste), it's "more procs of defensive cooldowns/buffs", "bigger numbers on my absorbs/heals", and yes still "more passive mitigation" (not just armor/stamina, but also mastery).

I definitely notice that my monk tank feels much different than he did at the beginning of the expansion. Yes, I generate resources more frequently, but my dodge cooldown is up more consistently (from higher crit %), I get more shield procs from doing more damage, and my shield/heal sizes are massive. If you have a tank in MoP and want to test this yourself, all you need to do is enter proving grounds and see how different your tank feels in 463-capped gear.

When you get a new weapon upgrade it's no longer just a new weapon model and a minor increase to stats. You can actually feel it increasing the size/frequency of some active mitigation abilities, and what's even crazier is that it's helping you survive better.

I'm really trying to remember any brainless tank and spanks from BC onwards. I think Brutallis ironically is one? I don't recall if the tanks needed to even move on that.

From a tank perspective, there were/are so many. People bring up Patchwerk like it's this one rare example of a really boring tank fight, but what they don't realize is that it was only an unusual fight for DPS. For tanks, standing still and doing a tank swap when the fight calls for it is like 90% of raid fights. It's not something they've gotten away from in MoP either, most of the mechanics that make each fight unique are still reserved for non-tanks. Fortunately tanks actually can make an impact on whether they survive now, so even boring tank swap fights are a bit more exciting.

Just so I make sure I've got this straight: people here have an active desire to return to the old Everquest tanking paradigm of "stand in front of mob and mash taunt, and as long as you've got good enough gear you win"?

Is that essentially correct?

Pretty much. Change is bad.
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Reply #122 on: December 09, 2013, 12:56:12 PM

More like change isn't automatically good. They made lots of great changes to warriors over the years. "Active tanking" sucks, though. It stacks un-fun, DPS-style busywork on top of big picture fight management - which is the part of tanking that was actually fun. Lucky for me I have a game where I can play the way I want still.  tongue

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Reply #123 on: December 09, 2013, 01:11:12 PM

I played a warrior up to this point when I finally dumped it for a DPS Shaman in MoP. I never alt, and since Cataclysm I just can't stand tanking on the warrior anymore. Hell I can't even stand dpsing on it compared to the bang for buck you get on a shaman.

Anyway my sub runs out against in late December, just in time for tax season. I liked this later part of the xpac a good bit, but the fact they don't plan on doing anything else until the next xpac leaves me with no reason to sub now that I've done basically all the LFR stuff I've wanted, and the guild is essentially no longer bothering.

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Reply #124 on: December 09, 2013, 09:44:18 PM

Your status as a tank is *still* determined by your gear and your spec. A Fury warrior that switches to defensive stance and taunts a boss is still going to eat dirt because they don't have the gear or the passive mitigation from spec that you are so fond of. Same with the Windwalker monk.
Nah, status as a tank is currently defined almost entirely by your spec now.   Gear does play a role, but not nearly as much of one as it did.  In the current model, if you took a DPS specced character, swapped him to tank spec, and told him to tank stuff, he would do a massively better job of it then if you tried that under pre MOP rules.   In Pre-MOP, trying that would result in a tank with at minumum about 15 to 20% less avoidance / mitigation then one properly geared at the same gear level.   Post MOP, 90% of your ability to tank comes from the the modifiers and cooldowns baked into your Spec.   What we want back is when it used to be more of a 60 / 40 balance of Spec / Gear makeing you feel like a tank, rather then 90 / 10, where that 10% gear has more to do with looking for the right dps stats on your gear to support your tank cooldowns.    At least the DKs still got it right where them wanting mastery makes them feel more tanky because it directly contributes to their hugeass absorbs, instead of eveyrone else wanting haste or crit because it improves resource generation so they can pop cooldowns better.

I definitely notice that my monk tank feels much different than he did at the beginning of the expansion. Yes, I generate resources more frequently, but my dodge cooldown is up more consistently (from higher crit %), I get more shield procs from doing more damage, and my shield/heal sizes are massive. If you have a tank in MoP and want to test this yourself, all you need to do is enter proving grounds and see how different your tank feels in 463-capped gear.
Maybe that works for a monk.  But monk is the new class, so like the DK, they are going to be a bit more unique then the other tanks.

Like I said, I main a druid.  Gear does pretty much jack shit for us other then increase our HP / Damage.   None of our defensive abilities scale even remotely noticably with haste (that i am aware of), and it does not matter anyway, since our current stat priority is Crit >>> literally everything else.   Mastery?  It's useless, since it gives us bonus armor, of which we have way too much as it is.  Dodge?  Completely pointless, since now the only place to find dodge is on trinkets (where an agility or crit proc is far superior to a dodge one) or to reforge for it (which would be stupid as hell).   Since the bulk of our "dodge", our primary defensive stat, comes from Savage Defense, our main concern is more crit for more rage so we can pop it whenever we need it.   Frenzied Regen is kind of a joke.  Sure, it scales with AP, but since our HP scales along with our AP from gear, the effect is generally un-noticable.  Unless you are tanking a facemasher boss in raids, then vengeance pumps it up to a nearly Lay On Hands like proportion full heal. 

And i have been looking into gearing my paladin for Prot, which ends up looking very similar.   Except that you change the default stat priority from wanting Crit to wanting Haste.  Like I said before.  Something is seriously wrong when the active mitigation model forces you to design stat priorities that dont even LIST the classic defensive stats like dodge or parry

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Reply #125 on: December 10, 2013, 11:49:45 AM

Gear does pretty much jack shit for us other then increase our HP / Damage.   None of our defensive abilities scale even remotely noticably with haste (that i am aware of), and it does not matter anyway, since our current stat priority is Crit >>> literally everything else.  Mastery?  It's useless, since it gives us bonus armor, of which we have way too much as it is.  Dodge?  Completely pointless, since now the only place to find dodge is on trinkets (where an agility or crit proc is far superior to a dodge one) or to reforge for it (which would be stupid as hell).   Since the bulk of our "dodge", our primary defensive stat, comes from Savage Defense, our main concern is more crit for more rage so we can pop it whenever we need it.   Frenzied Regen is kind of a joke.  Sure, it scales with AP, but since our HP scales along with our AP from gear, the effect is generally un-noticable.  Unless you are tanking a facemasher boss in raids, then vengeance pumps it up to a nearly Lay On Hands like proportion full heal. 

You just listed a bunch of different stats from gear that benefit you as a druid tank. Mastery, crit, dodge (when you get it), AP, and yes haste. I don't play a druid tank. My 85 bear druid was the only character I didn't bother to transfer to my new server because I hated every spec on that class in Cata. Still, haste provides more rage by causing you to make more auto-attacks, and also gives you more chances for Tooth and Nail procs. You also missed hit/expertise, which are hugely important with active mitigation. Remember pre-MoP where it didn't really matter that much whether your attacks actually hit as a tank because they did barely any damage and provided only additional threat that you didn't need? That was pretty dumb.

Something is seriously wrong when the active mitigation model forces you to design stat priorities that dont even LIST the classic defensive stats like dodge or parry

The reason you're stacking "DPS stats" (which are ultimately also defensive stats at this point) is because Blizzard is trying to cut down on amount of gear that is only useful for one or two specs out of the 34 in the game. As the original/only AGI tank as of Cata, druids were the first test for this. In WoD all specs will work on a similar model with primary stats changing depending on what spec you're in. Druid tanking may be boring (it certainly was in Cata!) but that's a failure with the design of druid tanks, not the stat design.

When I say rose-tinted glasses, this is what I'm talking about. People actually want the old tank stat model where you had to get to arbitrary and hidden dodge/parry/block thresholds to "push regular attacks off the hit table"? Madness. The old tank stat design was shit, and if you're arguing that tanking should be easier and more friendly to step into than it is in MoP, requiring people to have a very specific set of gear before they can even try it isn't the way to accomplish that goal.
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Reply #126 on: December 10, 2013, 12:00:44 PM

The reason you're stacking "DPS stats" (which are ultimately also defensive stats at this point)

You've stumbled into the problem. In a place where we can literally have our pick of gear from tokens, why not make gear for every spec? There's not a need to simplify when the RNG isn't a factor now.

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Reply #127 on: December 10, 2013, 01:18:19 PM

You've stumbled into the problem. In a place where we can literally have our pick of gear from tokens, why not make gear for every spec? There's not a need to simplify when the RNG isn't a factor now.

Three reasons.

1) It would make it harder for tanks to solo or for DPS to ease into tanking since each would go back to requiring completely separate gear. Same argument against making healing/caster DPS gear too different. I don't know why anyone here would be arguing for this.

2) Tokens cover 5 slots of gear not 16. That would be a bit more of a mess and I think getting/winning loot would be a bit less exciting if you were just winning generic tokens for every single slot. Sets are where you see dodge for agi tanks outside of trinkets though, but it's not exciting to get which brings me to...

3) The old tank stat system sucked, so why would you want to go back to it? Again, what did you like about having to get to plan your stats around a hidden "boss hit table"? If Crit provides dodge (which it does in a round-about way for both Druids and Monks), why do you want dodge as a stat? It isn't doing to help your character outside of a very specific setting, and the old defense stats were a complicated mess.
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Reply #128 on: December 10, 2013, 01:37:18 PM

1 - I like having sets of gear. The system itself lets you have a gear manager for this exact reason. Making all gear the same just means you have no reason to get anything else buy ilvl. Here's an item with 475 awesome on it, that will replace my 465 awesome piece. Done and done.

2 - With reforging, this doesn't matter. Say I get a piece of gear with something on it I don't like? I can still rig that back into something I do. When they remove reforging, they need to add more gear anyway.

3 - The old system didn't suck. You had defense cap, you had parry, dodge, and block. It wasn't that freaking complicated. Then they removed block and defense in Cata for reasons I'm not sure. Probably PVP, or just because they wanted to move towards this active model that's terrible. But instead they added expertise, which no tank actually wanted. I don't see how you can say that the Cata changes to talents made any of this better. Who cares about soloing as a tank? I HAVE TWO SPECS.

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Reply #129 on: December 10, 2013, 01:41:59 PM

This is all utterly pointless.

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Reply #130 on: December 10, 2013, 01:48:52 PM

You've stumbled into the problem. In a place where we can literally have our pick of gear from tokens, why not make gear for every spec? There's not a need to simplify when the RNG isn't a factor now.

Three reasons.

1) It would make it harder for tanks to solo or for DPS to ease into tanking since each would go back to requiring completely separate gear. Same argument against making healing/caster DPS gear too different. I don't know why anyone here would be arguing for this.

2) Tokens cover 5 slots of gear not 16. That would be a bit more of a mess and I think getting/winning loot would be a bit less exciting if you were just winning generic tokens for every single slot. Sets are where you see dodge for agi tanks outside of trinkets though, but it's not exciting to get which brings me to...

3) The old tank stat system sucked, so why would you want to go back to it? Again, what did you like about having to get to plan your stats around a hidden "boss hit table"? If Crit provides dodge (which it does in a round-about way for both Druids and Monks), why do you want dodge as a stat? It isn't doing to help your character outside of a very specific setting, and the old defense stats were a complicated mess.

1) I liked this. I pally/druid tanked my way through levelling in TBC in tank spec and DPS gear switching to tank gear for instances. Later on I carried 2 sets of gear because it wasn't hard to do that. DK was even easier to level as first undholy, then blood tank and in fact I had a hell of a lot of fun seeing just how many adds I could take on at once... as a tank.

2) Tokens were a case of 1 set for tanking, 1 for DPS and were not hard to get. Again I had both. The rest of it never seemed to be an issue, I ran dungeons to get me started and it got better from there. It added to the game for me to get the 2 (sometimes 3) gearsets I wanted.

3) I liked the invisible caps and got a real sense of satisfaction when I got to them or as close to possible as I could for that tier of gear. Balancing the stats was fun as well and at the end of the process, I felt like a tank.

It keeps coming back to what you say is not fun, others see as fun.

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Reply #131 on: December 10, 2013, 02:20:09 PM

This is all utterly pointless.

Rokal's been wrong so many times, you think he'd be used to it by now, but no. It's always the same tired ROSE-COLORED BURNOUT garbage instead of recognizing the game sucks as designed now. Cataclysm literally ruined everything, from removing stats, to adding shitty stats, to completely redesigning the difficulty curve.

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Ingmar
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Reply #132 on: December 10, 2013, 02:22:59 PM

The whole defense cap thing was annoying, but otherwise I really prefer having tanking gear that does tanky stuff.

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Reply #133 on: December 10, 2013, 02:25:58 PM

1 - I like having sets of gear. The system itself lets you have a gear manager for this exact reason. Making all gear the same just means you have no reason to get anything else buy ilvl. Here's an item with 475 awesome on it, that will replace my 465 awesome piece. Done and done.

It must take some amazing mental dissonance to claim that tanking has become too exclusive in MoP and then turn around and argue in favor of requiring a specific gear set of gear to tank and requiring out-of-game knowledge of the combat table again.

Do you also think healing gear should be useless when switching to a caster DPS spec again?

3 - The old system didn't suck. You had defense cap, you had parry, dodge, and block. It wasn't that freaking complicated.

You're misremembering it. There was a magical hidden value you had to reach for each of the stats in order to avoid taking a regular or critical hit. You've even admitted to hating Defense rating on these forums in the past, so I'm not sure why you're advocating it now.

This is what defense stats resulted with in Cata, which was after they had already been simplified by removing defense rating.

Quote from: Cata pally tanking guide
So there is a magical number on the Paladin that you are looking for itís called Block Cap or Combat Table Coverage.  Essentially by combining your dodge, parry, and block percentages you can avoid just a regular hit and always either dodge, parry, or block every single blow.  This will smooth out the spike damage you take making it easier for you to be healed.

Itís great to completely dodge or parry a hit and completely miss but when you do get hit, it creates a spike drop in your health sometimes making it impossible for healers to heal you in time.  This is why Mastery is currently the best Paladin stat in game for tanking because it will enhance your block rating making it so you absorb a portion of the incoming damage.

Therefore, until you reach the magical number of 102.4% of Block, Dodge, and Parry; you should Gem and Reforge to Mastery until you reach it.  Youíre tanking stat priority then goes as such:

3) I liked the invisible caps and got a real sense of satisfaction when I got to them or as close to possible as I could for that tier of gear. Balancing the stats was fun as well and at the end of the process, I felt like a tank.

It keeps coming back to what you say is not fun, others see as fun.

I won't argue that these stats weren't fun for you, but I hope you can at least agree that they weren't intuitive and made tanking more exclusive.
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Reply #134 on: December 10, 2013, 02:32:53 PM

Defense may have been complicated, but it at least made sense that you'd want it on your tanking gear, calculations be damned. You'd see that stat and go, AHA! That's a tanking piece.

I don't think tanking is too exclusive in MoP. I think it sucks. Anybody could do it, but they chose not to because it's a giant damn headache in addition to the other headaches. I'll reference Wrath, yet again, when there were so many people tanking that I had to quit doing it in my own raid group so I could accommodate the roster. These systems you think suck were all in place then, and there were never more tanks than at that point.

Also, yeah why not have two sets of gear for healing and dps? They are two different jobs with two different specs. Also, from a game retention standpoint, that's a great move for Blizzard. It gives people more to search for.

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Reply #135 on: December 10, 2013, 02:33:29 PM

Man, I just love the argument that because of the massive amount of EVIDENCE, I'm actually having fun and tanking every night.

Dude, you're not right.


I'm glad it works for you, but holy fuck tanking is awful at the moment.

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Reply #136 on: December 10, 2013, 03:03:00 PM

See, Rokal, the thing you are missing (and maybe I am not conveying it correctly) is that the "feeling" of gearing "tankishly" is gone.   Yes, I totally get it that picking up DPS stats like Haste, Crit and Mastery improve how my character tanks, but it really does not feel like a tankish way to outfit.

Maybe I am crazy (but evidence here suggests otherwise), but I LIKED the defense caps.  I liked needing to gear for Dodge, and a higher expertise cap.    There was a point where DPS geared one way (Hit / Expertise to cap, then go for your class / spec best DPS stats), and Tanks geared a completely different way (Hit / Expertise even higher caps, gear for tank specific stats (not DPS stats that affect your tanking, but actual TANK STATS)).   Now that everyone tanks with DPS stats, and cooldowns that boost their "Tank Stats", it all feels samey.   Maybe it is just me being an old fart who is too used to many many years of the previous model, but the new one has lost some of that flavour that set things appart.

To use what is probably a terrible analogy, It is like the old system was : DPS is a sword:  Use it to attack your opponent.  Tank is a Shield: use it to defend yourself / others.  Two completely different objects with completely different purposes.   Now the new system is:  DPS is a sword: Tank is also a sword.  Same object, you just wave it around a different way depending on if you are attacking or defending.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 12:37:54 AM by SurfD »

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Reply #137 on: December 10, 2013, 05:22:09 PM

This is all utterly pointless.

Rokal's been wrong so many times, you think he'd be used to it by now, but no. It's always the same tired ROSE-COLORED BURNOUT garbage instead of recognizing the game sucks as designed now. Cataclysm literally ruined everything, from removing stats, to adding shitty stats, to completely redesigning the difficulty curve.

Nonono, Cata was perfect!  I loved how all the flavor of the old zones were replaced with theme park rides.  I loved how mobs in a zone would gray out before I was done with the ride there.  I loved how goofy and fake the world became.  Every quest had a HILARIOUS pop culture reference! 

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Reply #138 on: December 10, 2013, 10:00:41 PM

Dude, pop culture is fine and even for most of Cata was not bad.  It was just when you got to "lawl see this zone is ALL indiana jones, wink WINK" is when it got bad.

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Reply #139 on: December 11, 2013, 12:06:01 AM

Yeah, MOP tanking is just ugh. The only 'active tanking' that works is the one they basically left alone: blood DKs and death strike timing. For all other tank classes, 'active tanking' is just self buff uptime busywork.

That said, I do agree with Rokal on the 'defense cap is bad' thing. I have always been a non-raider, and getting the defense cap in BC (and early WOTLK) was an absolute PITA that either involved massive amounts of gold or praying for the right dungeon drops while running the same heroics until my eyes bled. Oh yeah, and an almost-mandatory Sons of Hodir rep grind to get the last few precious points. Fuck that!

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