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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  MMOG Discussion  |  World of Warcraft  |  Topic: Ghostcrawler's Leaving 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Paelos
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Reply #35 on: December 01, 2013, 10:47:46 AM

Don't bother. I'm still trying to figure out if Simond adds anything to this site other than trolling and Bioware hate.

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Rokal
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Reply #36 on: December 01, 2013, 11:51:47 AM

Where does the class balance hate come from anyway? The classes are as balanced as they've ever been. Every DPS spec is viable within a few % of each other in PvE. If you really cared about PvP balance you wouldn't be playing a game where power comes from gear.

Class design is where I could see people having legitimate complaints, but that's all really subjective. IMO they're as good as they've ever been.
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Reply #37 on: December 01, 2013, 12:04:25 PM

Except for Tanks.  The drop in # of tanks is testament to fact that tanking in Cata/ MOP sucked and was inferior to every design prior to this generation.  Add on the sameyness now that they all tank the same way w/ active mitigation on top of their need to corral, time and manage mobs. Whee.

Not coincidentally, tanks were more common in WOTLK when they just had to be in something's face and then worry about the rest.  They all had different flavors, too.  Mitigation, block, evasion, self-heal.  There were problems to even-out or give additional tools for, yes, but they at least felt different enough to be fun. And while they were still scarcer than DPS it wasn't as pronounced as it was when I quit.

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Reply #38 on: December 01, 2013, 12:12:28 PM

I can chime in here :

Started on Pandaria again recently and tanking suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks.

Sucks.

It sucks.

It really, really sucks.

This from a guy who loves tanking and used to love that role above all others.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Rokal
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Reply #39 on: December 01, 2013, 02:51:41 PM

Except for Tanks.  The drop in # of tanks is testament to fact that tanking in Cata/ MOP sucked and was inferior to every design prior to this generation. 

The only measurable "drop" in tanks has been in LFR for this tier, which says more about the content than the state of tanks. It isn't fun to lead a bunch of opinionated idiots through LFR, and the job still falls to tanks despite the "leader" checkbox in LFR (which people check off just for a faster queue). Flex raids and T16 fights that are more complicated than people want to deal with are what removed all the tanks from LFR. They're just as easy as they've ever been to find for 5-mans, and the active mitigation stuff doesn't actually matter until you're raiding. Until then, healers can cover for poor tank play just as they cover for poor DPS play in LFD/LFR.

During the first tier I did LFR as DPS on my monk and the monk tank kept dying on Empress. When I noticed his Stagger debuff was never being cleared, I whispered him suggesting that he use purifying brew more often in the fight to clear his staggered damage and stay alive. He didn't even know he had the ability. It's the core mechanic for active mitigation on monks, and it just didn't matter enough for him to notice until he got to raid content (and even then, he was still able to tank most of it without using his active mitigation). Monks are the tanks with the most active mitigation, where using the abilities matter most (since they have higher incoming damage than other tanks) so it's even more true for all of the other tank classes.

Add on the sameyness now that they all tank the same way w/ active mitigation on top of their need to corral, time and manage mobs. Whee.

Not coincidentally, tanks were more common in WOTLK when they just had to be in something's face and then worry about the rest.  They all had different flavors, too.  Mitigation, block, evasion, self-heal.  There were problems to even-out or give additional tools for, yes, but they at least felt different enough to be fun. And while they were still scarcer than DPS it wasn't as pronounced as it was when I quit.

Those styles still exist for MoP, moreso than before really. Before MoP most tank abilities were very samey: they did damage and generated higher threat (which didn't matter after threat adjustments in Cata). Outside of threat+damage abilities, tanks had personal cooldowns to reduce damage every couple of minutes. DKs, the original active mitigation tanks, were the only exception with Deathstrike (and barely so). I think the differences now are more pronounced than they've ever been, speaking as someone with 3 tanks at level cap. Warriors are the block/mobility tanks. Druids are the mitigation/evasion tanks. Paladins are the self-heals/mitigation tanks. DKs are the self-heal/anti-caster tanks. Monks are the evasion/self-healing tanks.

I can respect that people don't want to relearn their class or see huge changes after 7+ years of playing, but you're deluding yourself if you think the pre-MoP tanking model was as awesome & distinct as you're claiming. It was easier, but MoP tanking doesn't need to be hard to get the job done. If you want to use damage/aoe abilities and run around like a WOTLK tank you can.
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Reply #40 on: December 01, 2013, 03:18:25 PM

"I was the quarterback and threw five interceptions. I was hardly involved with the offense. But this is a team so we all share the blame for the loss."
Paelos
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Reply #41 on: December 01, 2013, 04:17:41 PM

It was easier, but MoP tanking doesn't need to be hard to get the job done. If you want to use damage/aoe abilities and run around like a WOTLK tank you can.

Tanking is supposed to be easier. You are supposed to be able to do your job fairly simply because you are expected to position, lead, react, and know all the strats on any given fight.

Again, I'll reiterate something I've said, and something just about every other tank said when they quit, "If I wanted to worry about rotations, I'd play DPS."

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Margalis
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Reply #42 on: December 01, 2013, 08:31:40 PM

If your game has one director and two leads the idea that one of the leads isn't really responsible for anything is more than slightly idiotic.

If decisions were all made via consensus there would be no need for leads at all.

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Reply #43 on: December 01, 2013, 08:46:10 PM

Is it okay to say I don't like him because of his shitty "Ugh, stop being badsWow, dungeons are hard!" blog entry where he defended Cata's awful launch 5-mans before they were summarily nerfed almost every patch?

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Reply #44 on: December 01, 2013, 08:57:03 PM

That's my only gripe with him.  It's a big one though.
Paelos
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Reply #45 on: December 01, 2013, 08:59:18 PM

Is it okay to say I don't like him because of his shitty "Ugh, stop being badsWow, dungeons are hard!" blog entry where he defended Cata's awful launch 5-mans before they were summarily nerfed almost every patch?

Yes, considering that it happened right around the moment that the game peaked and started trundling downhill.

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Reply #46 on: December 01, 2013, 09:08:50 PM

I blame Cata (not GC by extension, just the expansion in general) for basically signaling the death knell for 5-mans which were my favorite type of content.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Paelos
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Reply #47 on: December 01, 2013, 09:26:22 PM

Yep, I feel the same way. Also I hated the tanking changes.

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Draegan
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Reply #48 on: December 02, 2013, 09:41:31 AM

I still think Vanilla had the best 5 mans. Even in WOTLK, most of the 5 mans I did were so faceroll easy that all I did them for was trying to get that one trinket, or grind for points. I don't remember them being interesting in any way. Maybe I don't remember them prior to overgearing them to the point where they were trivial.

For my money, I still want 5 man dungeons with more than one direction to go in. I miss the old BRD. I enjoyed going after a specific part of a dungeon and not expecting to clear the whole thing. I also miss those deep deep dives to kill the Emperor from time to time. Though, I'm probably in the minority because people hated the Onyxia chain and BRD represented that.
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Reply #49 on: December 02, 2013, 09:48:38 AM

Maybe I don't remember them prior to overgearing them to the point where they were trivial.
They weren't easy at release, but once the next tier from Naxx came out they were pretty simple to do.  You could still get a group of fail that made them overly difficult until ICC came out.

I liked the vanilla ones, but not having 2-3+ hours to devote to BRD or LBRS\UBRS was frustrating.  You could log in and wait for a group all night, only to have it *almost* there or get 25% of the way in before "sorry guys, I have to go."  Standing around the instance waiting or sitting in gchat bugging people all night was not fun.
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Reply #50 on: December 02, 2013, 10:06:34 AM

Everyone hated Occulus until the bitter end.
Paelos
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Reply #51 on: December 02, 2013, 10:10:14 AM

Everyone hated Occulus until the bitter end.

It stands alone as the worst dungeon ever created in WoW. It's not even close.

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Reply #52 on: December 02, 2013, 12:41:59 PM

Any number of vanilla dungeons were worse than Oculus.

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Reply #53 on: December 02, 2013, 12:46:49 PM

Any number of vanilla dungeons were worse than Oculus.
This. Honestly, I didn't hate Oculus THAT much, even when pugging. Even before they nerfed it and improved the rewards, it wasn't that much of a bother to run as I remember everyone saying.

But then, I had fun healing and tanking Cata heroic pugs in blue gear, so what do I know  why so serious?

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Reply #54 on: December 02, 2013, 01:01:51 PM

Any number of vanilla dungeons were worse than Oculus.

It'd also rank every CoT dungeon under Oculus. The only thing more obnoxious than escort quests is slow heavily scripted escort quests.
Paelos
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Reply #55 on: December 02, 2013, 01:06:03 PM

Any number of vanilla dungeons were worse than Oculus.

I'll take UBRS over Occulus any day.

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Reply #56 on: December 02, 2013, 01:14:07 PM

Upper spire was OK, if too long like nearly every dungeon in the game at release, but I hated Wailing Caverns and Sunken Temple just to give a couple that leap immediately to mind. Don't forget what the trash was like in Scholo/Strat before they got nerfed. Also in terms of gimmick encounters which is the main objection to Oculus, I saw far more groups crumble at the hands of the torch room in BRD than I did groups that couldn't figure out how to fly their dragons.

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Paelos
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Reply #57 on: December 02, 2013, 01:22:00 PM

I don't really count the leveling dungeons though in Vanilla, since they aren't the same as something like Occulus, which was in the heroic rotation you ran over and over and over for points.

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Reply #58 on: December 02, 2013, 01:25:40 PM

Scholomance, Lower BRS, BRD, Strath Live Side. All giant bags of dick.   Given a choice, I'd run Occ over those.

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Fordel
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Reply #59 on: December 02, 2013, 01:35:29 PM

There are three kinds of dungeons.


Dungeons that are fun ONCE, then awful when you have to farm them.

Dungeons that are awful when you do them at the intended level/gear, but totally fun when you over gear it.

Dungeons that are fine when you do them at the intended level/gear, but just a frustrating waste of time once you over gear it.



The dungeons in Desolace and Feralas, those were really neat the first time I did them. They were really really long and bothersome when I had to do them again.

That one dungeon in the first TBC zone, Shattered something. It was stupidly punishing and frustrating at first, with its like 10 mob pulls that can insta gib non tanks and shit. Bring 2 mages or go home at release kind of dungeon. That dungeon when everyone is in full badge/sunwell gear? AE IT ALL LAWL GO GO NEW RECORD TIME!

Any of the Caverns of Times dungeons were the opposite. When you are killing at the intended pace, you don't really care about the escorts, they are helpful even. Once you over gear it, you spend a lot of time waiting and waiting and just hurry the fuck up thrall/arthas. Next Portal Plz

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Paelos
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Reply #60 on: December 02, 2013, 02:01:01 PM

Occulus was annoying because you couldn't overgear it while doing it properly, and Z axis, and they tied a bunch of achievements to the fucking drakes.

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Reply #61 on: December 02, 2013, 03:06:33 PM

My only issue with Occulus was all the babies who would drop group when it popped.  why so serious?

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Reply #62 on: December 02, 2013, 03:10:44 PM

Shattered Halls.  I think it's the only BC instance I never saw in its entirety, because our warrior tank refused to run it.  "Get a paladin because I'm not going to tank that!"
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Reply #63 on: December 02, 2013, 03:14:07 PM

Arcatraz and Botanica could also be quite.. interesting to pug  awesome, for real

Really, for all the BC nostalgia everywhere on the intarwebs, it had some of the worst / least fun dungeons in WOW history. (though to be fair, Magister's Terrace was pretty great.. and the dungeons were still better than vanilla dungeons as a whole)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:16:16 PM by Zetor »

koro
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Reply #64 on: December 02, 2013, 03:18:45 PM

I hated a lot of the TBC dungeons. Shadow Labyrinth was a pain in the ass, especially as a squishy. Arcatraz and Botanica could go suck a dick, and take Mechanar along with for giggles.

As for Shattered Halls, I always had more trouble finding a group actually willing to do it on my Priest than the dungeon itself. Then again, I never had to tank it, so...
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:22:19 PM by koro »
Paelos
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Reply #65 on: December 02, 2013, 03:27:48 PM

I hated mana-tombs the most in TBC.

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Reply #66 on: December 02, 2013, 04:47:00 PM

The fake arena fight in Magister's Terrace is still one of the most fun dungeon experiences I had in all of WoW.  Too bad I was apparently the only one who liked it.   Cry
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Reply #67 on: December 02, 2013, 04:55:02 PM

It was fun as long as the group wasn't derps, that was the main problem. /drops earth elemental

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Reply #68 on: December 02, 2013, 06:23:14 PM

I think we literally ran Botanica 40-50 times to get my stupid paladin shoulders.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Paelos
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Reply #69 on: December 02, 2013, 07:06:47 PM

I ran strat dead until my eyes bled for many people's sets.

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