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Author Topic: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF  (Read 152528 times)
schild
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Reply #105 on: March 22, 2013, 12:16:16 PM

Kickstarter emailed me and told me that my comments were abusive. I now have someone I can email there. Worth it.

Quote
Hi Eric,

Nice to meet you. I'm writing because we noticed you posting abusive comments on a project. This kind of activity is against our Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines#community) and it is not permitted. We take our guidelines very seriously; please take a minute to read through them.

We understand the necessity of an open discourse between backers and creators. If you've had experiences that have led you to distrust this creator, it's fine to voice those opinions as longs as you do it in a manner compliant with our community guidelines.

Please take care to use polite and courteous language going forward when commenting on projects.

Best,
Kickstarter
Yegolev
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2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


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Reply #106 on: March 22, 2013, 12:23:54 PM

So, you were using "sentence enhancers".  That's the charge.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Trippy
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Reply #107 on: March 22, 2013, 12:26:26 PM

So, you were using "sentence enhancers".  That's the charge.
awesome, for real
Yegolev
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2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


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Reply #108 on: March 22, 2013, 12:27:39 PM

Well, I read the comments which are shown in the "how-to" thread and I don't see how that was abusive.  Not to someone that is, as you mentioned, likely immune to ridicule at this point in his life.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #109 on: March 22, 2013, 12:30:23 PM

Right, because kickstarter doesn't have every incentive to get these projects funded even the ones that are welfare for rich people.

"Me am play gods"
Yegolev
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Reply #110 on: March 22, 2013, 01:14:13 PM

Obviously we have a financial conflict here.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
schild
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Reply #111 on: March 22, 2013, 01:22:48 PM

I am, by the way, keeping my new title and yes I noticed it immediately.
Trippy
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Reply #112 on: March 22, 2013, 01:40:27 PM

Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Yegolev
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Reply #113 on: March 22, 2013, 01:43:14 PM

Presumably you get the reference, but I have to ask.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Signe
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Muse.


Reply #114 on: March 22, 2013, 01:48:02 PM

Geez, there's a drug for everything these days.

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Bzalthek
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Reply #115 on: March 22, 2013, 02:36:13 PM

Syntactile Dysfunction affects millions of people every day!

"Pity hurricanes aren't actually caused by gays; I would take a shot in the mouth right now if it meant wiping out these chucklefucks." ~WayAbvPar
Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #116 on: March 22, 2013, 04:56:55 PM

Guy took a wild swing and hit a home run when power-steering and airbags were being introduced.  Now we have cars that drive themselves and run on electricity.  Who gives a fuck what he thinks or does.  Just wrap him in the MUD-DEV archive and be done with it.  None of these first gen self-rolling self-promoting pioneering geniuses matter one fuck.  It's the goddamn Dinosaur Rock of gaming.
Ghambit
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Reply #117 on: March 22, 2013, 05:32:30 PM

I'm tempted to give $1 so I can post in the comment section.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 05:34:16 PM by Ghambit »

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #118 on: March 23, 2013, 08:14:04 AM

Obviously we have a financial conflict here.

Thus the problem with KS to begin with. This project is highlighting their bullshit nicely. I love what Schild is doing.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
schild
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Reply #119 on: March 23, 2013, 08:32:49 AM

Unfortunately, I think at the end of the day Kickstarter will be unwilling to remove a project that could net them a few hundred thousand for doing precisely zero work. That's bothersome to me. Not nearly as bothersome as a multi-multi-multi-millionaire leveraging the public instead of putting more money up. The lie of including customers in development should have run its course years ago. Unfortunately, what this tells me is I should just make a Kickstarter because the quantity of morons far exceeds my expectations in nearly all situations.
Ghambit
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Reply #120 on: March 23, 2013, 09:32:21 AM

At least it's not setting off like DoubleFine did, which to me was even worse, especially since they were the ones that started this current slippery slope.  They didnt even have a fuckin concept and got $9m dollars (to avoid publishing fees essentially) just for saying they were making a game (and a typically cheesy one at that).  As hatemaking as Garriott is at least he's further along in development and is making something a tad more compelling then a side-scrolling cartoony pretend artsy thing.

Regardless, the writing was on the wall with DF's $9m raping.

And still, the best example of proper KS use for a game was from two college dudes who quit their burger-flipping jobs to make Faster Than Light.  They got nowhere near what these fucks got.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #121 on: March 23, 2013, 09:54:33 AM

Unfortunately, I think at the end of the day Kickstarter will be unwilling to remove a project that could net them a few hundred thousand for doing precisely zero work. That's bothersome to me. Not nearly as bothersome as a multi-multi-multi-millionaire leveraging the public instead of putting more money up. The lie of including customers in development should have run its course years ago. Unfortunately, what this tells me is I should just make a Kickstarter because the quantity of morons far exceeds my expectations in nearly all situations.

If KS included some guarantees that they (Kickstarter) would pursue recourse on behalf of supporters for projects like RG's that will never deliver as promised, then I think they would be less willing to let RG's project into that system.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Falwell
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Reply #122 on: March 23, 2013, 10:22:05 AM

Well look at this fucking guy go. Good to see one of these my man, been too long.





Psychochild
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Reply #123 on: March 23, 2013, 02:55:39 PM

Oh, hey, someone said to check out f13.  Ah, a front page post!

...

Well, that was an old-school rant site rant.  Oooh, nostalgia!

Honestly, Garriott is right: designers do seem to copy-and-paste design often and don't innovate.  But, he's wrong, so very wrong, about the reason.  It's not (just) lazy or shitty designers, it's because the industry has changed drastically since the days of a small team banging out a game for an Apple computer.  Your job as a designer isn't to think and create new gameplay, it's to document what your boss says to work on.  If your boss is an uncreative moron, you're going to be stuck working on crap.  Fighting against that gets you labeled as "not a team player", which is pretty much the death sentence.  Innovation is hard and, more, it's a hard sell to investors who just want a return and gamers who have been trained to have short attention spans.

I would expect anyone who has paid attention the industry the last decade or so to understand that.  Hell, I went to a post-mortem talk about Tabula Rasa where the reasons were laid out: too many people controlling design, too many demands made from the outside.  But, I guess those excuses aren't for the little people.

I had high hopes for Kickstarter being a great way for people to get funding for projects who didn't have access to traditional methods of funding.  When someone who has obvious connections and wealth (Molyneux, Garriott, etc.) uses it as publicity, it seems like an abuse.  But, as mentioned, Kickstarter the company has financial incentive to STFU and take the free money.  In the end, I predict the giant burning wreckage of one of these projects is going to poison the well.

Brian 'Psychochild' Green
Former Developer, Meridian 59  http://www.meridian59.com/
Blog: http://psychochild.org/
Ironwood
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Reply #124 on: March 23, 2013, 03:06:04 PM

Well said.

Also, where the hell did you go ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
schild
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Reply #125 on: March 23, 2013, 03:18:00 PM

What Brian said very much applies to large teams at large studios and even some medium teams at medium studios. Part of the problem with Garriott, if we're going to get all Industry-Related about this (rather than just calling him out for being the cockass he is), is that he refuses to acknowledge that all these old-timey  "big-oil" dinosaurs are pretty much irrelevant. Basically anyone would rather have a Notch around these days (or even a Gabe Newell) than a Molyneux or Roberts or even a Specter. The latter type of studio those people are involved with have a bunch of terrible design because that's what that culture creates from the current generation of young-adults (or adults). The studio I was most recently at had actually both types of studios (monolithic, slow, and monotonous in the same building as a highly creative, lean studio). Anyway, end of the day is both types exist, and Psychochild is being far more cynical about it than I am.

But then again, I'm not even trying to work in the industry because it underpays and the majority of managers are man-children who would fail in a non-gaming industry.

The Kickstarter well is most likely already poisoned as there are enough Big Projects that have completed funding, but are just waiting for failure.
Psychochild
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Reply #126 on: March 23, 2013, 10:12:47 PM

...and Psychochild is being far more cynical about it than I am.
You misspelled "realistic".  And, small studios don't magically dodge the bullet, they just follow the path slower than the larger company.

I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant, but rather that their past successes won't guarantee future games will be worth playing.  The industry tends to fuel the attitude that old success is still meaningful, because it makes people "pay their dues" to be accepted as a designer.  And, honestly, most people don't create a string of hits.  I doubt 0x10c is going to be as big of a success as Minecraft, and it's entirely possible in 30 years someone will be writing the same rant about Notch that you wrote about Garriott today.

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The Kickstarter well is most likely already poisoned as there are enough Big Projects that have completed funding, but are just waiting for failure.
It's not poisoned yet, just the buckets of poison are lined up along the edge waiting for a gentle bump to go tumbling in.

Brian 'Psychochild' Green
Former Developer, Meridian 59  http://www.meridian59.com/
Blog: http://psychochild.org/
Paelos
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Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #127 on: March 23, 2013, 10:16:17 PM

It's pretty much all over except for the crying in my mind. With KS projects like RG's allowed? Those buckets are going down.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
schild
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Reply #128 on: March 23, 2013, 10:28:10 PM

I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one. Go ahead. I mean, I'll go ahead and just throw Miyamoto out there since there isn't anyone nearly as important as him in America, and he hasn't actually changed the way people think about anything since like Mario 3 (one could argue the Wii but that was less of a visionary thing and more of a group process).

Individual game designers are relevant when it comes to board games. Not so much anymore with video games. The concept of The Visionary / Lead Designer days in video gaming are pretty gone and those old designers that made a shitload of money that are supposed to be relevant might be if they didn't become old managers. These people don't know how to manage. They're just big children. Any adult that calls himself Lord British (or otherwise) needs a big 'ol punch in the dick.

The only reason I used Notch as an example is because Minecraft is something Garriott (or anyone else he named) could NEVER have come up with - even if they had unlimited money and unlimited time. It never would have happened. They were from a world where nothing had been done and everything was new.

Grats on being the first people on the block. Thanks for paving the way. You ALL are hilarious failures at management. Get the ever living FUCK out of my industry.

Quote
It's not poisoned yet, just the buckets of poison are lined up along the edge waiting for a gentle bump to go tumbling in.

It's not poisoned yet because no "big budget/winner" projects have been delivered yet. Games, as a lifecycle, take too long for funding from something like Kickstarter.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 10:30:49 PM by schild »
Xuri
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Reply #129 on: March 23, 2013, 10:51:07 PM

I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one.
Ron Gilbert.

-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-
schild
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Reply #130 on: March 23, 2013, 11:09:11 PM

I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one.
Ron Gilbert.
Do we really want to use part of the two-man duo that brought us this fucking problem in the first place? Really?

I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Maniac Mansion; it's likely in one of my top 20 games of all time. But you're bringing up a guy who "needed" Kickstarter for funding, Tim wouldn't even admit it was for that, Ron admitted he was a terrible manager in an interview a LONG time ago, and everything he's done outside of storytelling adventure games has been largely shit.

If Garriott was making a top down Ultima in 8-bit graphics with himself and like 3 other people as a love letter to his past and wouldn't do it without Kickstarter funding, we wouldn't even be here having this conversation.

Edit: I'm going to clear this up before I get pounced on. It's pretty obvious based on the Double Fine Kickstarter that the adventure game getting funded is what Ron Gilbert was working on with them. Tim and Co just never called it out inside the Kickstarter outside of two of the reward options. I'm not saying he refuses to admit he's working on an adventure game with Ron Gilbert at all, he absolutely is willing and has done so. I'm just saying there are lots of reasons Ron Gilbert isn't the best of answers given the circumstances.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 11:19:32 PM by schild »
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Reply #131 on: March 23, 2013, 11:22:28 PM

Fair enough.

-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-
Psychochild
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Reply #132 on: March 23, 2013, 11:55:42 PM

I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one. Go ahead.
I should have said it's bit much to say they must be irrelevant, as if "old designer = irrelevant" is an irrefutable fact.  They could be relevant, but tend to rely too heavily on past successes.  As I said, the industry tends to encourage that with the "paying the dues" attitude and the conservatism that creeps into any creative industry.

But, I'll throw out a name: Will Wright.  Yes, I know it's been a while since he set the world on fire.  Spore wasn't exactly a raging success and he's been mired in dealing with shitty business partners the past few years (creative guy sucks at business, film at 11).  But he gave us 2 significant genre-defining games: SimCity and The Sims.  And The Sims is so brilliant that despite being one of the best selling games ever, it's not been cloned successfully; how many other games can claim that?  Plus it was made under the soul-crushing regime of EA.  Anyway, I'll be more interested if Will Wright announced a new project than just about any other new game designer you could mention, and I'm not a particularly huge fan of his games.

But, this starts to come down to matters of taste and opinion.  I think we both broadly agree that the game industry is generally more dysfunctional than a Republican gay sex scandal and that famous game designers need more focus on making successful new games and less focus on self-aggrandizement based on ancient success.

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It's not poisoned yet because no "big budget/winner" projects have been delivered yet. Games, as a lifecycle, take too long for funding from something like Kickstarter.
Oh, certainly.  It's the difference between potential energy and kinetic energy.  We have a lot of potential here for poisoning, but no buckets hitting the bottom quite yet.

Personally, I've stopped bothering to support video game KS projects.  As you say, it's too long a cycle; the end result might be radically different than what is promised.  And, ultimately (har har), the end result is going on sale sometime in the future.  I don't have the resources to get the big rewards, so might as well save my money now and pay a bit extra to know what it is I'm actually going to be buying beyond cotton candy wishes and fairy dust dreams.  Until I see a truly groundbreaking game that cries out to be made and won't be made otherwise; we'll see if such a beast can see the light of day on KS.

Brian 'Psychochild' Green
Former Developer, Meridian 59  http://www.meridian59.com/
Blog: http://psychochild.org/
Velorath
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Reply #133 on: March 24, 2013, 03:20:45 AM


1) I can get behind spite as funding motivation.

2) Also seems scammish to me, although that's probably more because it only wanted $829 (someone didn't calculate fees and transaction costs, it seems) and now has $10k+. I predict a backlash.

And you'd be right.

Edit: For those who don't want to read the neogaf thread, here's a good summary of the mom who started that Kickstarter:

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Susan Wilson, Founder and CEO

Named to this year's FORTUNE List of the Top Ten Most Powerful Female Entrepreneurs, Susan Wilson is Founder & CEO of The Judgment Group.  A member of Ernst & Young's prestigious Winning Women Program, Susan is now completing her third year of a three year executive education program at Harvard Business School. 

Prior to starting The Judgment Group, Susan was a founding member and the Executive Vice President of a technology startup that raised $12 Million in venture capital, became kinkos.com, and was sold in 2000 to the copy giant Kinko’s for $100 Million. 

A Certified Public Accountant, Susan is a graduate of Georgetown University.  Recently named among the Baltimore regions SmartCEO's, Susan was also declared among Maryland's People to Watch.  In 2007, she was honored as one of the Top 50 Most Influential Collection Professionals for her company’s innovative use of technology in getting judgments paid and justice served. 

Susan is an member of several business organizations and actively mentors and advises other female entrepreneurs as well as young girls.

The self delusion of some of the people in the comments thread on that Kickstarter are incredible.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 03:33:09 AM by Velorath »
Merusk
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Reply #134 on: March 24, 2013, 07:48:10 AM

It's not all self-delusion. There's legitimately people who don't see a problem with millionaires, or even billionaires, crowd sourcing their projects and failing on other folks dime.

Hell, I'd do it if I could and not shed a tear about it.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Hawkbit
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Reply #135 on: March 24, 2013, 08:50:54 AM

I don't see how the millionaire's project should have been accepted.  Rule 1 states that KS is for developed concept projects.  Rule 3 states no "fund my life" projects, including projects to pay tuition.  It's bonkers.
Velorath
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Reply #136 on: March 24, 2013, 11:08:02 AM

It's not all self-delusion. There's legitimately people who don't see a problem with millionaires, or even billionaires, crowd sourcing their projects and failing on other folks dime.

Hell, I'd do it if I could and not shed a tear about it.

For the most part, I don't see a problem with it either. I wouldn't expect Carmack to fund the Oculus Rift on his own dime.  I don't even care about Garriott's Kickstarter.  If a dozen people are dumb enough to put up $10,000 for a tour of his home, he'd be crazy not to take it.  I'd do the same provided I had some security around for when these clearly insane people starting masturbating in their own shit two seconds after walking through my door.

In the case of the 9 year old girl thing though, the self delusion people are the "I'm paying to make a kid's dream come true and promoting more women in game development" people.  That girl's dreams (if this is even her dream, given that the Kickstarter was clearly written by the mom) would have come true without their money, the girl already has her mother as a pretty good example of how women can be successful, and none of the excess money is going to help women in general get into game development.  All that is combined with the fact that as Hawkbit mentions, this KS only makes the flimsiest pretense about it being for a product
Venkman
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Reply #137 on: March 24, 2013, 11:57:54 AM

And Taylor Swift wasn't a true kid-from-nowhere story either. So? Stroking people's propensity towards self delusion is the foundation of an open market economy.

I don't begrudge Garriot going to KS. Part of the challenge with launching a business is proving there's a market for a thing. He just proved there is in a way that's far more immediate and believable some a few hundred thousand in qualititative and quantitative research, and more rewarding to him and his fans than stroking the right Angel/VC ego at the right place and time.

Was that the intent of KS? Shit, who cares? Emergent behavior's been ruining cool concepts since fire became a weapon.

His attitude about other designers, well, that's a different story.
Hawkbit
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Reply #138 on: March 24, 2013, 12:44:24 PM

Wow, the posts on the 9yr old kid's mom's project are getting good.  Apparently she runs a website that is crowdfunding for women's projects and posts on facebook about her $1500 shoes.  The dirt is being dragged up on this lady. 
tgr
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Just another victim of cyber age discrimination.


Reply #139 on: March 24, 2013, 01:01:20 PM

I'm wondering why people even try this kind of shit these days. It's like they don't realize that there are a lot of autistic people who'll happily hunt down any detail they can find on someone online.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
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