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Title: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: ForumBot 0.8 beta on March 20, 2013, 02:55:42 PM
ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF

"I am not a destroyer of companies. I am a liberator of them! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit."

- Gordon Gekko, Wall Street


» Read More


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 02:56:58 PM
Hey look, the linkbot still works.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Fordel on March 20, 2013, 03:04:44 PM
Hurrah!

Don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ironwood on March 20, 2013, 03:05:03 PM
Yeah, That'll Do Pig.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: kildorn on March 20, 2013, 03:07:16 PM
I feel like Schild is still holding back. Tell us how you really feel.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 20, 2013, 03:08:04 PM
Does this mean you can't get us into the beta?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Trippy on March 20, 2013, 03:09:54 PM
WTF?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Xanthippe on March 20, 2013, 03:10:36 PM
Hurrah!

Don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel  :why_so_serious:

Beat me to it.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 03:12:31 PM
WTF?

Sup.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2013, 03:13:26 PM
Good stuff.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Montague on March 20, 2013, 03:14:30 PM
A Haemish-esque tour de force of profanity, I approve.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 03:19:00 PM
By the way, his trip to space reportedly cost $30 Million dollars. That he's on Kickstarter is both offensive and outright hilarious. What a douche.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2013, 03:21:38 PM
My first tip-off that he was a douche was the house.  Also maybe Ultima IX.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 03:22:17 PM
My first tip-off that he was a douche was the house.  Also maybe Ultima IX.

Not the rattail? Even in the 80s?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Bunk on March 20, 2013, 03:24:37 PM
Wow, this was a pleasant surprise.

To play a bit of Devil's Advocate, I kind of get what he was saying in the article you linked - that it's hard to train or teach good developers, because the really creative types already have more focused roles. Really though, he should be looking in the mirror when he says it. Ultima 8 and 9 pretty much killed any respect I had for him as a developer 20 years ago, and what's he done since?

As far as the Kickstarter thing goes, I fully agree with you that someone like Garriot using it to get investors for a pet project he could fund all by himself comes across really badly. Why the hate on the idea of true Indy developers using it though? Seems to me its a viable way of getting a project made without getting stuck attached to  a publisher.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tgr on March 20, 2013, 03:25:23 PM
grr so angry :why_so_serious:

Edit for serious content: I understand the hate against Garriot using kickstarter, but I don't get the hate against indies in general.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 03:29:48 PM
Garriott shouldn't be able to get investors fucking anywhere. If he wants to stay in gaming he should be spending his own millions. He has to prove himself again, which he'll never EVER be able to do. Because he's not a game designer. He's a leech. I don't know why any investor would touch him.

It wasn't hate against indies. It was hate for the idea of video games on Kickstarter. I simply don't like it as a platform for funding videogames. It's also too easy to get away with a total scam, even moreso than a physical product.

Edit: To add more - YES, I'M A GAMING INVESTOR OH MR. GARRIOTT YOU WANT MORE MONEY? I'LL JUST IGNORE THE 30M YOU BANKED FROM YOUR PREVIOUS ROLE WHERE YOU ALMOST TANKED THE US ARM OF A COMPANY AND DELIVERED ONE OF THE WORST AAA MMOGS OF ALL TIME AND THEN SUED THEM. LET ME JUST OPEN MY WALLET FOR YOU. HURRR DURRRRRRR.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lantyssa on March 20, 2013, 03:30:23 PM
I missed seeing this side of you, Schild.

Also in total agreement, not surprisingly.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hawkbit on March 20, 2013, 03:35:42 PM
The P.P.S. is the cherry on top.  I'm so very glad that was said.  Thank you.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2013, 03:40:46 PM
My first tip-off that he was a douche was the house.  Also maybe Ultima IX.

Not the rattail? Even in the 80s?

I'm from Alabama.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 03:47:11 PM
My first tip-off that he was a douche was the house.  Also maybe Ultima IX.
Not the rattail? Even in the 80s?
I'm from Alabama.
Well, you're fucked.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
I got better. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: satael on March 20, 2013, 03:48:23 PM
Nice to see new stuff on the front page of f13.net  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: luckton on March 20, 2013, 03:48:35 PM
"I am not a destroyer of companies. I am a liberator of them! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit."

- Gordon Gekko, Wall Street



(http://www.thestate.ae/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/olivia-gif-5.gif)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Strazos on March 20, 2013, 03:50:51 PM
My first tip-off that he was a douche was the house.  Also maybe Ultima IX.

Not the rattail? Even in the 80s?

Dude you didn't have a rat tail in the 80s? I did.

I was also 7 years old.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: palmer_eldritch on March 20, 2013, 03:54:15 PM
Ok Richard Garriott is now my enemy.

But nothing you can say will ever turn me against Joss Whedon.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Nonentity on March 20, 2013, 04:02:41 PM
I don't really have anything to contribute to the conversation, but I'm glad to see the long-form rant return.

Cheers!

(http://i.imgur.com/3gbPRx3.gif)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hutch on March 20, 2013, 04:15:41 PM
I'll be in my bunk.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Malakili on March 20, 2013, 04:16:31 PM
I approve this message.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Merusk on March 20, 2013, 04:21:35 PM
I got better. :awesome_for_real:

Let's remember: Scale is relative.

Georgia: Better than Alabama, still The South.   :drill:  :grin:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 20, 2013, 04:28:39 PM
My first tip-off that he was a douche was the house.  Also maybe Ultima IX.

Not the rattail? Even in the 80s?

I think the rattail and Ultima VIII should have been the first fucking clue.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Soulflame on March 20, 2013, 04:47:22 PM
That was emphatic.

Also well said.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 20, 2013, 04:49:03 PM
I think we need a new Raging Douchebag Week.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 04:57:01 PM
This was it, just Wednesday.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Rasix on March 20, 2013, 05:01:46 PM
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/82533/19Kzd.gif)

Nicely done.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tazelbain on March 20, 2013, 05:04:15 PM
*flips the switch on the holophonictransinducer*
Douchebag One, can you read me?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Cheddar on March 20, 2013, 05:26:47 PM
Well said.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Venkman on March 20, 2013, 05:46:24 PM
Pretty schmucky statement from a guy hoping to get a game published. I'd like to say I'm surprised. But really, how much more reptition will it take before we stop being surprised by people who built their careers on self promotion who turn out to be jerks?

I mean seriously, the most interesting thing here is that there's a new front page article,  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hoax on March 20, 2013, 05:50:17 PM
 :drill: :yahoo: :drill:

Oh how I've missed the voice of Eric son of Schild on the front page.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Abelian75 on March 20, 2013, 05:57:13 PM
I'm sure he regrets that comment about everyone but him and Chris Roberts sucking, but yeah... hard to imagine a more douchebaggy statement or a more ridiculous person for it to come from.

I liked Hartsman's comment: "Hoping the recruiter at Portalarium gets overtime. And hazard pay."


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Grimwell on March 20, 2013, 06:12:27 PM
That felt good.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Margalis on March 20, 2013, 06:19:25 PM
I agree with most of what he said, minus the "than me" part. I think it's fair to say that many games have very little design thought put into them, at least into the core of the game and not just peripheral elements like slightly different weapons. Many of the biggest games don't really have game design - they have level design and encounter design and such, but the core game design is essentially identical to other games in the genre.

That said, framing it as a comparison of his own design abilities vs everyone else's was truly bizarre. As a designer he hasn't been relevant since like Ultima 6 or so. The same is true of Chris Roberts - who IMO has never actually designed a good game, but if you accept Wing Commander it's still mid-90s.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Xuri on March 20, 2013, 07:11:50 PM
What's going on? Why has the front page been updated? IS THE END UPON US? *screams and runs away waving his hands in the air*


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Chimpy on March 20, 2013, 07:36:44 PM
Where does this yellow icon at the top of the forums lead me?

To a post that is gold.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2013, 08:58:23 PM
I think the rattail and Ultima VIII should have been the first fucking clue.

I was thinking of VIII.  The one with the jumping.  The fucking jumping.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: UnSub on March 20, 2013, 09:06:32 PM
Let's be clear about the true point of Kickstarters like these: it's promotion that actually earns money.

Right now Kickstarters are hot and any game developer with some kind of known gaming franchise / brand / history behind them can start one off and get easy gaming press attention. Games sites know that Kickstarters are easy copy to write: "Today GamesPlace Games, a studio founded by Alan Smithee, creator of such famed titles as War Shooter and Shooter War, announced a Kickstarter for their next project Shooting War." In an era of publishing 50+ new stories a day on gaming site, these articles are easy copy and grab eyeballs.

Plus it offers the chance for at least one follow-up interview (if not a Chris Taylor-style media blitz) and then articles about the progression of the Kickstarter.

It's not always 100% effective, but even the ones that fail raise old names up out of the mists of time - when was the last time game sites were interested in talking to Brenda Romero before that Kickstarter?

And when it works: it's money in the bank AND lots of free promotion. I'm not sure how much it would have cost Garriott to go down the traditional route of having PR send out press releases, organising interviews, site tours, et al, but a Kickstarter approach has actually earned the studio money.

This is the future. When even fully funded games are being Kickstarted (Pathfinder Online even told backers they were fully funded, but that the extra money would make the game bigger while also delivering it faster- think about it) you'd be stupid if you were running a studio to not go down this path.

I'm sure that some people will say that they back Kickstarters so that the games they want will get made, but in cases like these the studios / people behind them can probably afford to get the game funded without Kickstarter.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 09:21:46 PM
Yes, we (or at least I) understand all of that. But it makes Garriott look like a big 'ol douchebag (and not just because the game will suck). I know Kickstarter will take all the money all the time, but frankly, they should turn down some of these. They're not Kickstarting anything here. They're being a PR machine, and that's weak.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Viin on March 20, 2013, 10:08:00 PM
Money can quickly change one's "values".


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 20, 2013, 10:09:30 PM
Yuppppp.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 20, 2013, 10:12:59 PM
Money will cause one to forsake virtues?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ghambit on March 20, 2013, 10:37:11 PM
Yes, we (or at least I) understand all of that. But it makes Garriott look like a big 'ol douchebag (and not just because the game will suck). I know Kickstarter will take all the money all the time, but frankly, they should turn down some of these. They're not Kickstarting anything here. They're being a PR machine, and that's weak.

I said this ages ago and got flamed.  Now Garriott does it and somehow it's douchey.   :headscratch:
It's a model destined to fail and leave a lot of very deserving startups without funding.  Fucks like Garriott think that money grows on trees and the millions they suck from donation models and/or equity funding will somehow magically get replaced for all the people truly skilled enough to take advantage of said funds.

In the end everyone loses and we get left with shitty products from aged, long-since-irrelevant designers.  This goes for hardware as well as software.  It's shameful.  Kstarter is the main culprit because the reality is they can't say 'no' to the money.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: damijin on March 20, 2013, 11:05:07 PM
I know I havent been here in years, but Schild, are you in SF for GDC by any chance? I just got a job as a designer at Storm8 over here like last week. I would love to bring you to the Kongregate or Storm8 GDC parties and buy you a beer or 12 for writing and posting that epic piece of awesome.

Also, today at work we talked about this shit all day (Garriott's comments, not yours, though I'll link this around tomorrow). I mean, I think I'm a lazy piece of shit, so I don't disagree with the man -- but I think he's a complete fucking waste of existence and if I cross paths with the son of a bitch I'll take the assault charge for a bar brawl. The rat tail is coming off mid-fight. I dont care if thats a girl move, I cant let it stay on there.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Samprimary on March 20, 2013, 11:29:42 PM
I think what I would most like to have, seer artifact wise, is a sort of a crystal ball or seeing lode that allows me to look into a person's alternate dimension where they get an inexplicable one-off megasuccess. That way I could watch what they do with both the fame and the fortune, and it would be a pretty effective lens into who they really are as a person.

We're just inexplicably stuck in the alternate dimension of garriot's inexplicable megasuccess, so


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: TheWalrus on March 20, 2013, 11:59:46 PM
May I just say, I love this is signed as f13.net. Like we all had a part in it. Makes me feel good if all I got to do was say holy fuck the front page changed.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Wasted on March 21, 2013, 01:29:47 AM
I hope he gets to read this, and whilst shrugging it off as normal internet vitriol, a little quiet part inside himself cries and his 'fools and their money' boner wilts just a little. Too bad "Ultima: Fantasie Generica" will still get made though


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: apocrypha on March 21, 2013, 01:31:50 AM
Rich people are cunts, it's how they get to be/stay rich. Good article Schild.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ubvman on March 21, 2013, 03:36:22 AM
Rich people are cunts, it's how they get to be/stay rich. Good article Schild.
I dunno, its good for Schild maybe but It's just a stream of insults directed at a guy who would never ever to read it. 
Those who agree already know it, but the unwashed masses who need to read it probably won't - so basically preaching to the choir.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 21, 2013, 04:04:46 AM
At first, I thought the front page got hacked.

Kickstarter. Hum de dum. It seems to be equally about generating that all important buzz as much as raising money for projects. You see some crazy enthusiasm for some kickstarters, and enthusiastic people are easier to fleece.  :grin:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 21, 2013, 04:06:55 AM
Money will cause one to forsake virtues?

Thou hast lost an eighth!


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Fabricated on March 21, 2013, 05:39:12 AM
What's also annoying is that if they claim they want to use Kickstarter as a way of "gauging interest", they could have just used Steam Greenlight and not taken money.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tgr on March 21, 2013, 05:42:06 AM
I've greenlit quite a few games I've ended up not buying, simply because I thought they looked like games I would've bought if I had the time.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Khaldun on March 21, 2013, 06:19:44 AM
Good stuff.

The Kickstarter thing is so egregious, so awful. Him being a douchebag about other developers and so on, eh, it's annoying but he's hardly the only person annoying in that way. But the misuse of Kickstarter is in a little concentrated way just about everything that's wrong about the American economy right now--fuckers with money finding every loophole, every exploit, every cheat, everything they can whore and corrupt and break, just so they can have more money. Fuckers with money socializing risk and privatizing profit.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hutch on March 21, 2013, 06:48:16 AM
Knee jerk class warfare rhetoric

If the people, however misguided or ignorant, are giving their money voluntarily, it's not socialism.
Using Kickstarter to fleece the gullible is deplorable, sure, but let's don't mar this otherwise awesome thread with political dogma.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yoru on March 21, 2013, 07:08:10 AM
Mmmm. This was like a warm, fuzzy draught of the mid-2000s f13 all over again.

We need to go crash GDC parties or something again, Schild. Those were the days.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Khaldun on March 21, 2013, 07:47:58 AM
Knee jerk class warfare rhetoric

If the people, however misguided or ignorant, are giving their money voluntarily, it's not socialism.
Using Kickstarter to fleece the gullible is deplorable, sure, but let's don't mar this otherwise awesome thread with political dogma.


He starts the rant with a quote from Gordon Gekko, dipshit.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Draegan on March 21, 2013, 08:26:27 AM
Fucking lolworthy.

Nice work.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hutch on March 21, 2013, 08:39:23 AM
Knee jerk class warfare rhetoric

If the people, however misguided or ignorant, are giving their money voluntarily, it's not socialism.
Using Kickstarter to fleece the gullible is deplorable, sure, but let's don't mar this otherwise awesome thread with political dogma.


He starts the rant with a quote from Gordon Gekko, dipshit.

Gordon Gekko is a fictional character. And whatever Stone might have intended, Gekko had a point.
But I don't think that's why that quote is in the article. I think the point here was to say that Garriot is greedy. (Maybe I'm missing something, and maybe we don't need to deconstruct the article in the first place.)

But back to your retort. Do you think that a quote from an Oliver Stone movie opens up the field to populist rhetoric? Because I think it's possible to call Richard Garriot a greedy, manipulative, incompetent douchebag without it.

Or are you just mad because I called your duckspeak "knee jerk"? I could have called it a non-sequitur instead, would that not have hurt as much?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Krakrok on March 21, 2013, 09:37:59 AM
That is one of the tenets of staying rich. Risking other people's money. Most "startups" don't need VC money but the founders would rather fail with money other than their own. If they failed with their own money they might drop back down the totem pole. Having other people reality check ideas when it's their money on the line is also helpful.

And what Kickstarter really does for these big projects is create a group of rabid fanbois. If you wanted to build that same group of fanbois from scratch it would cost hundreds of thousands of marketing dollars and months of time. Kickstarter gets people to pay to be fanbois. Now they have to keep an eye on their preorder/donation for two years (and talk about it to their friends).


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 21, 2013, 09:54:41 AM
I don't know if people are sending me paypal cash because of the screed, or diverted from the kickstarter, or they just want me to take more people to task. Either way, thanks gentlemen. Like Garriott, I'm not above handouts. Unlike Garriott, I can't fund gaming studios with the actual cash in my wallet. Or from a private sale of Russian aerospace gear.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on March 21, 2013, 09:56:13 AM
I already disliked Kickstarters policies, but I agree that video games on Kickstarter are the lowest of the low from people with net worth over $1M. You can collateralize a real loan jackleg, interest rates are in the toilet.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Signe on March 21, 2013, 10:43:26 AM
ForumBot 0.8 beta is so hot.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tazelbain on March 21, 2013, 10:48:09 AM
Don't date robots.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Segoris on March 21, 2013, 11:03:21 AM
This new concept of a front page confuses me greatly. I thought it was just for reposting BIIFs.

Nice job Schild.

While I'm not against Kickstarter being used to fund indie games, I am against anyone (or any company) with enough money to fund their own interests/projects using it, especially while they're out blowing their money on really unnecessary shit.

I don't know if people are sending me paypal cash because ..... they just want me to take more people to task. Either way, thanks gentlemen.

Step 1: Make a board with mug shots (or Western style "wanted" posters) of shitbags in the gaming industry (or anyone who calls themselves a "gaming journalist" without any reason to), take bids/pledges/whatever and the McShitty with the biggest bounty gets ranted on.
Step 2: ? ? ? ? ?
Step 3: Profit Server funded annually.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lucas on March 21, 2013, 11:15:47 AM
Official statement from Richard Garriott:

http://www.portalarium.com/images/docs/Words%20Taken%20Out%20of%20Context.pdf

(sorry for the formatting, it also looks like I can't post a "spoiler" message in this particular thread?)

Quote
Words Taken Out of Context
Wow did I strike a nerve! In the midst of a much longer more contextual conversation, PC
Gamer noted “Wow, you just gave me my headline!” At that moment, I knew to brace for an out
of context backlash. Without the broader real time discussion, as often happens, much can be
made out of partial thoughts used as headlines of comments meant as quipping simplification of
complex issues, as was the recent case for me. The variations of headlines where I either
disparage others, or glorify myself are inaccurate representations of the intent of my full
commentary.

Still, I have received numerous comments of support and numerous complaints about my recent
words about the challenges of finding great game designers. But, please let me clarify! By no
means did I intend to disparage others who have led the many great games of each era in gaming
history. I was trying to say, and show why finding or growing NEW great game designers is
hard!
Behind the inaccurate inflammatory headlines extracted from a longer dialog, I really do see a
major challenge to our art form, specifically in the area of design. The design of a game is
simultaneously 1) the most valuable aspect when it comes to the potential of success of a game,
2) the hardest part of game development to improve over previous efforts because of
competition, and 3) the skill set with the least formal and informal training available to game
developers.

Let me examine the history of design from where I watched it unfold.

Once upon a time, only one person made a game. By necessity that person was the programmer,
artist and designer (as well as holding many other roles). I can honestly say that the first artist I
ever hired was FAR better than I ever was. I was, and could still be, a passable programmer.
Some programmers who my companies have hired have been better than me, some worse, as I
would expect. And there are designers whose work in many areas is far better than mine. But I
also think some of the work I have done as a designer remains a top contribution for its time.
However, while ALL artists in the industry are better than I ever was, and while I can easily hire
a programmer who is better than I ever was, it is far more difficult to hire a designer who is
clearly capable of leading a top 10 game. For any company, growth only comes when the
company finds another leader who can make a top 10 game.

Origin only grew when we found people like Chris Roberts and Warren Spector. Most other attempts at creating new game lines
failed when we gave the reigns to junior people looking to advance. I want emphasize that this
was not always the case, but it happened more times than not. As a business it’s important to
understand why.
At Origin, after we successfully added art teams and programming teams, we realized we had
huge worlds to build that did not demand the same drawing skills as an artist. We also had NPC
scripting needs that did not demand a top programmer. Thus we invented the Technical Design
Assistant, often someone from QA (still a traditional source of designers) to build maps and
script NPCs.

These people did this to GREAT success! But, as the industry evolved, we began to lean more heavily on new “designers” to develop the
actual plans for the game itself and to describe the game we planned to build. They were also
tasked with making design calls on how much of the computer’s limited resources should be
spent on the competing fields of art, sound and interaction. This difficult trade-off is generally
best handled by someone who knows the difficulties of coding and art creation issues, and that is
more often someone who has programmed and drawn art than it is someone who has not.
Sadly for people who really are passionate about designing the next great game, “game design”
remains a hard skill to learn.

A lot of indie developers right now who are “triple threats” of artist,
programmer and designer, will likely rise to the occasion. They will have a good understanding
of ALL the issues. Designers, who never coded and never drew art, have a far harder path ahead
of them. After all, we are making “computer games,” and a deep knowledge of the computer is
mighty helpful.

Artists can take classes and create portfolios of their work and an employer knows they can do
the work. A programmer can take classes and produce code samples to prove the same. For
designers, there are now at least a few good schools like the Guildhall at SMU, that turn out
quality designers.

Yet these quality designers remain a rare breed. Sadly, I really do think that
most people who get into design roles on a team have no more skills at design than the
programmers and artists. They may not be worse, but they rarely have better training than the
others to tackle the hardest job of all, determining what game is going to be built.
Perhaps my statement that has been quoted so often in recent days could have been presented in
a more eloquent fashion. But I stand by the point I was making, that game design is the hardest
profession in our business to understand and to learn.

And I certainly am not trying to put my own career on some sort of game design high ground.
While I have hit occasional home runs, I have made plenty of unforced errors. I was not
attempting to prop myself up with these comments, but rather lament my need…our industry’s
need for proper training in the most important skill required to make a good game. I never had
any formal training either; I have just had more time to learn from my mistakes than most. If
what comes from all this is a frank discussion and lively debate on how to best address this issue,
then hopefully I’ve accomplished something.

Thanks for your time,
Richard “Lord British” Garriott


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 21, 2013, 11:26:13 AM
He has not hit occasional home runs.

He hit one home run.

I do not believe even in the slightest he knows what good game design looks like or is capable of training or helping people achieve that.

(Nearly) all the people he listed in that article are all universally crap and in the same league of one-hit wonders he is.

He is a douche of the highest order. Lord Douche of Douchetannia.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ghambit on March 21, 2013, 11:33:06 AM
Knee jerk class warfare rhetoric

If the people, however misguided or ignorant, are giving their money voluntarily, it's not socialism.
Using Kickstarter to fleece the gullible is deplorable, sure, but let's don't mar this otherwise awesome thread with political dogma.


Well, given the size of the kstarter marketplace (which isnt all that big), can you necessarily call it voluntary when big studios with plenty of capital hog the splash pages and the headlines?  It's a fine line.  If my project gets bumped to the bottom of the pile because a few dozen non-indy companies want to fleece the system of cash, how is it at that point still voluntary?  A supporter would have to click-scroll through a helluva lot of projects to reach mine beneath all the bullshit noise.

Moral of the story:  Capitalism is sadly not voluntary.  It's sheep led by wolves w/o the sheep choosing to do-so.  Even Gekko realized that.   :oh_i_see:

Let us further examine what Kickstarter would look like if it were truly 'socialist.'  You'd have no "projects we like" or "staff picks" sections.  It'd be setup more like Amazon (tracking the supporters interests, etc.).  There would be no "popular projects" section.  Etc.  Everyone would be on equal footing.  Going further, they'd cap the marketplace for use only by groups below a certain threshold, to prevent bloat from established IPs.  Ironically, this seems a lot more voluntary then the way it works right now.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Rasix on March 21, 2013, 11:36:35 AM
Mmmm. This was like a warm, fuzzy draught of the mid-2000s f13 all over again.

We need to go crash GDC parties or something again, Schild. Those were the days.

Neckpuncher.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yoru on March 21, 2013, 12:00:27 PM
Mmmm. This was like a warm, fuzzy draught of the mid-2000s f13 all over again.

We need to go crash GDC parties or something again, Schild. Those were the days.

Neckpuncher.

Round 2, fight!


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Outlawedprod on March 22, 2013, 12:34:23 AM
Better KS RPG than Garriott's.  /discuss
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-building-an-rpg-to-prove-her-brothers-w


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: UnSub on March 22, 2013, 04:35:57 AM
Better KS RPG than Garriott's.  /discuss
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-building-an-rpg-to-prove-her-brothers-w

1) I can get behind spite as funding motivation.

2) Also seems scammish to me, although that's probably more because it only wanted $829 (someone didn't calculate fees and transaction costs, it seems) and now has $10k+. I predict a backlash.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: rk47 on March 22, 2013, 04:52:32 AM
Yep. Same feelings.

I hope this makes you feel better, schild.

(http://i.imgur.com/26AAdPW.png)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 07:38:15 AM
I like to assume that 15% of those got donated to me.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 07:39:52 AM
Also, I'd like to point out that we're only -$89,000 and change from hitting our goal of his Kickstarter not succeeding.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lantyssa on March 22, 2013, 07:44:11 AM
Did I just see a UO graph that went into negative numbers? ;D


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 08:45:25 AM
Currently at -$3,965. TOGETHER, WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tazelbain on March 22, 2013, 08:51:14 AM
Ya, my idea anti-funding that raises the funding threshold and goes to charity if the ks was blocked would be making a fortune here.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 08:52:48 AM
Ultima: Shroud of the Redeemed

Now with 100% less Richard Garriott. All proceeds go to the Schild Fund for a Better Tomorrow.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: MrHat on March 22, 2013, 08:54:35 AM
So that last bit is people withdrawing their pledge?

 :drill:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tazelbain on March 22, 2013, 08:55:28 AM
Why would we fund you when you are well on your way to being a trophy husband?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 08:55:37 AM
So that last bit is people withdrawing their pledge?

 :drill:
Correct. And god-willing my hatred will spill over into other corners. This is one of the very few things from this site I wish would actually go viral. I might not have enough personal insults in it to drive the point home though.

Quote
Why would we fund you when you are well on your way to being a trophy husband?

Because a dollar for me is a dollar for... justice and good taste?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: rk47 on March 22, 2013, 09:00:49 AM
I'm doing what i can schild. im spreading it to my usual haunts. I don't really want to see LB succeed.
Your vitriol is inspiring.  :grin:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 09:02:48 AM
It has come to my attention that people don't realize they can cancel their pledge. GONNA HAVE TO MAKE A WALKTHROUGH.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: rk47 on March 22, 2013, 09:07:55 AM
Yes,... upload it to youtube.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lantyssa on March 22, 2013, 09:08:12 AM
Come on people!  We need -$55,000 to bring this full circle.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 09:22:11 AM
Come on people!  We need -$55,000 to bring this full circle.
Well, slightly more than that.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 09:23:25 AM
I just made a pledge, commented, and canceled my pledge to make a walkthrough, and in that time one of the slovenly chucklefuck Ultima fanboys replied and now I can't respond. I don't want to make another fake pledge to deal with them. Bleh.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Mrbloodworth on March 22, 2013, 09:40:01 AM
All that because he said the equivalent of "Those that can't do, teach"?  :headscratch:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 09:41:16 AM
Those who can't really shouldn't be teaching either, but that's another discussion.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tazelbain on March 22, 2013, 09:44:48 AM
Those who got rich from success once should use their riches to fund further ventures rather than charity funding.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Mrbloodworth on March 22, 2013, 09:48:29 AM
But, snark aside, he does have a point.

If a designer comes up from QA, as many do, and runs in and scribbles all over the white board about the new awesome idea. Its going to mean fuck all as a design when the artists, Techs and programmers tell him its unfeasible. "Designers" with out the technical knowledge and understand of the core competencies of the field is useless. That seemed to be the thrust of his comment. Not that hes super awesome.

I Do agree with the part about extremely successful people using kick starter without ponying up money made during that success themselves.  I Do not believe kickstarter was created as a financial risk mitigation. Personally I have only ever donated to one kickstarter, that would be star citizen.

I don't see what the fuss is about.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 09:53:21 AM
You don't see what the fuss is about because your brain doesn't operate anywhere near the same realm as a normal humans. You're on the third moon of Neptar 7 whereas we're on Earth and Garriott is a big 'ol self-righteous cockhead. Also, he doesn't have a point because he hasn't made a goddamn thing that would classify as an actual game with design and shit in the last 20 years.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 10:01:31 AM
The responses to my comment on the kickstarter campaign are interesting. And if there's any truth to it, there's literally no reason whatsoever for them to be using Kickstarter other than as a platform for free press.

Which implies to me that Kickstarter should pull the project. I think we all know how to tank this thing now.

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39720/f13/ultima/report.png)

It's at the bottom of the main project page. Can't decide whether to classify it as "This is not a project" or "Prohibited Rewards." Or even "This is a charity project."


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: KallDrexx on March 22, 2013, 12:26:10 PM
I like the guy that argued with you saying that Richard Gariott (a millionaire who can fund this on his own if he wanted to) is taking more risks than you not putting in your $1.

Holy god the comments on that page are fucking retarded. 


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 12:55:07 PM
They're really horrendous.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Sky on March 22, 2013, 01:21:10 PM
RG should've used an IGG flexible funding campaign. Funds charged immediately and he keeps everything even if the goal isn't met.

Newb.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 02:16:16 PM
Kickstarter emailed me and told me that my comments were abusive. I now have someone I can email there. Worth it.

Quote
Hi Eric,

Nice to meet you. I'm writing because we noticed you posting abusive comments on a project. This kind of activity is against our Guidelines (http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines#community) and it is not permitted. We take our guidelines very seriously; please take a minute to read through them.

We understand the necessity of an open discourse between backers and creators. If you've had experiences that have led you to distrust this creator, it's fine to voice those opinions as longs as you do it in a manner compliant with our community guidelines.

Please take care to use polite and courteous language going forward when commenting on projects.

Best,
Kickstarter


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 22, 2013, 02:23:54 PM
So, you were using "sentence enhancers".  That's the charge.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Trippy on March 22, 2013, 02:26:26 PM
So, you were using "sentence enhancers".  That's the charge.
:awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 22, 2013, 02:27:39 PM
Well, I read the comments which are shown in the "how-to" thread and I don't see how that was abusive.  Not to someone that is, as you mentioned, likely immune to ridicule at this point in his life.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tazelbain on March 22, 2013, 02:30:23 PM
Right, because kickstarter doesn't have every incentive to get these projects funded even the ones that are welfare for rich people.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 22, 2013, 03:14:13 PM
Obviously we have a financial conflict here.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 22, 2013, 03:22:48 PM
I am, by the way, keeping my new title and yes I noticed it immediately.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Trippy on March 22, 2013, 03:40:27 PM
:grin:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 22, 2013, 03:43:14 PM
Presumably you get the reference, but I have to ask.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Signe on March 22, 2013, 03:48:02 PM
Geez, there's a drug for everything these days.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Bzalthek on March 22, 2013, 04:36:13 PM
Syntactile Dysfunction affects millions of people every day!


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Soln on March 22, 2013, 06:56:55 PM
Guy took a wild swing and hit a home run when power-steering and airbags were being introduced.  Now we have cars that drive themselves and run on electricity.  Who gives a fuck what he thinks or does.  Just wrap him in the MUD-DEV archive and be done with it.  None of these first gen self-rolling self-promoting pioneering geniuses matter one fuck.  It's the goddamn Dinosaur Rock of gaming.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ghambit on March 22, 2013, 07:32:30 PM
I'm tempted to give $1 so I can post in the comment section.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on March 23, 2013, 10:14:04 AM
Obviously we have a financial conflict here.

Thus the problem with KS to begin with. This project is highlighting their bullshit nicely. I love what Schild is doing.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 23, 2013, 10:32:49 AM
Unfortunately, I think at the end of the day Kickstarter will be unwilling to remove a project that could net them a few hundred thousand for doing precisely zero work. That's bothersome to me. Not nearly as bothersome as a multi-multi-multi-millionaire leveraging the public instead of putting more money up. The lie of including customers in development should have run its course years ago. Unfortunately, what this tells me is I should just make a Kickstarter because the quantity of morons far exceeds my expectations in nearly all situations.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ghambit on March 23, 2013, 11:32:21 AM
At least it's not setting off like DoubleFine did, which to me was even worse, especially since they were the ones that started this current slippery slope.  They didnt even have a fuckin concept and got $9m dollars (to avoid publishing fees essentially) just for saying they were making a game (and a typically cheesy one at that).  As hatemaking as Garriott is at least he's further along in development and is making something a tad more compelling then a side-scrolling cartoony pretend artsy thing.

Regardless, the writing was on the wall with DF's $9m raping.

And still, the best example of proper KS use for a game was from two college dudes who quit their burger-flipping jobs to make Faster Than Light.  They got nowhere near what these fucks got.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on March 23, 2013, 11:54:33 AM
Unfortunately, I think at the end of the day Kickstarter will be unwilling to remove a project that could net them a few hundred thousand for doing precisely zero work. That's bothersome to me. Not nearly as bothersome as a multi-multi-multi-millionaire leveraging the public instead of putting more money up. The lie of including customers in development should have run its course years ago. Unfortunately, what this tells me is I should just make a Kickstarter because the quantity of morons far exceeds my expectations in nearly all situations.

If KS included some guarantees that they (Kickstarter) would pursue recourse on behalf of supporters for projects like RG's that will never deliver as promised, then I think they would be less willing to let RG's project into that system.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Falwell on March 23, 2013, 12:22:05 PM
Well look at this fucking guy go. Good to see one of these my man, been too long.







Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Psychochild on March 23, 2013, 04:55:39 PM
Oh, hey, someone said to check out f13.  Ah, a front page post!

...

Well, that was an old-school rant site rant.  Oooh, nostalgia!

Honestly, Garriott is right: designers do seem to copy-and-paste design often and don't innovate.  But, he's wrong, so very wrong, about the reason.  It's not (just) lazy or shitty designers, it's because the industry has changed drastically since the days of a small team banging out a game for an Apple computer.  Your job as a designer isn't to think and create new gameplay, it's to document what your boss says to work on.  If your boss is an uncreative moron, you're going to be stuck working on crap.  Fighting against that gets you labeled as "not a team player", which is pretty much the death sentence.  Innovation is hard and, more, it's a hard sell to investors who just want a return and gamers who have been trained to have short attention spans.

I would expect anyone who has paid attention the industry the last decade or so to understand that.  Hell, I went to a post-mortem talk about Tabula Rasa where the reasons were laid out: too many people controlling design, too many demands made from the outside.  But, I guess those excuses aren't for the little people.

I had high hopes for Kickstarter being a great way for people to get funding for projects who didn't have access to traditional methods of funding.  When someone who has obvious connections and wealth (Molyneux, Garriott, etc.) uses it as publicity, it seems like an abuse.  But, as mentioned, Kickstarter the company has financial incentive to STFU and take the free money.  In the end, I predict the giant burning wreckage of one of these projects is going to poison the well.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ironwood on March 23, 2013, 05:06:04 PM
Well said.

Also, where the hell did you go ?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 23, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
What Brian said very much applies to large teams at large studios and even some medium teams at medium studios. Part of the problem with Garriott, if we're going to get all Industry-Related about this (rather than just calling him out for being the cockass he is), is that he refuses to acknowledge that all these old-timey  "big-oil" dinosaurs are pretty much irrelevant. Basically anyone would rather have a Notch around these days (or even a Gabe Newell) than a Molyneux or Roberts or even a Specter. The latter type of studio those people are involved with have a bunch of terrible design because that's what that culture creates from the current generation of young-adults (or adults). The studio I was most recently at had actually both types of studios (monolithic, slow, and monotonous in the same building as a highly creative, lean studio). Anyway, end of the day is both types exist, and Psychochild is being far more cynical about it than I am.

But then again, I'm not even trying to work in the industry because it underpays and the majority of managers are man-children who would fail in a non-gaming industry.

The Kickstarter well is most likely already poisoned as there are enough Big Projects that have completed funding, but are just waiting for failure.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Psychochild on March 24, 2013, 12:12:47 AM
...and Psychochild is being far more cynical about it than I am.
You misspelled "realistic".  And, small studios don't magically dodge the bullet, they just follow the path slower than the larger company.

I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant, but rather that their past successes won't guarantee future games will be worth playing.  The industry tends to fuel the attitude that old success is still meaningful, because it makes people "pay their dues" to be accepted as a designer.  And, honestly, most people don't create a string of hits.  I doubt 0x10c is going to be as big of a success as Minecraft, and it's entirely possible in 30 years someone will be writing the same rant about Notch that you wrote about Garriott today.

Quote
The Kickstarter well is most likely already poisoned as there are enough Big Projects that have completed funding, but are just waiting for failure.
It's not poisoned yet, just the buckets of poison are lined up along the edge waiting for a gentle bump to go tumbling in.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on March 24, 2013, 12:16:17 AM
It's pretty much all over except for the crying in my mind. With KS projects like RG's allowed? Those buckets are going down.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 24, 2013, 12:28:10 AM
I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one. Go ahead. I mean, I'll go ahead and just throw Miyamoto out there since there isn't anyone nearly as important as him in America, and he hasn't actually changed the way people think about anything since like Mario 3 (one could argue the Wii but that was less of a visionary thing and more of a group process).

Individual game designers are relevant when it comes to board games. Not so much anymore with video games. The concept of The Visionary / Lead Designer days in video gaming are pretty gone and those old designers that made a shitload of money that are supposed to be relevant might be if they didn't become old managers. These people don't know how to manage. They're just big children. Any adult that calls himself Lord British (or otherwise) needs a big 'ol punch in the dick.

The only reason I used Notch as an example is because Minecraft is something Garriott (or anyone else he named) could NEVER have come up with - even if they had unlimited money and unlimited time. It never would have happened. They were from a world where nothing had been done and everything was new.

Grats on being the first people on the block. Thanks for paving the way. You ALL are hilarious failures at management. Get the ever living FUCK out of my industry.

Quote
It's not poisoned yet, just the buckets of poison are lined up along the edge waiting for a gentle bump to go tumbling in.

It's not poisoned yet because no "big budget/winner" projects have been delivered yet. Games, as a lifecycle, take too long for funding from something like Kickstarter.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Xuri on March 24, 2013, 12:51:07 AM
I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one.
Ron Gilbert.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 24, 2013, 01:09:11 AM
I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one.
Ron Gilbert.
Do we really want to use part of the two-man duo that brought us this fucking problem (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure) in the first place? Really?

I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Maniac Mansion; it's likely in one of my top 20 games of all time. But you're bringing up a guy who "needed" Kickstarter for funding, Tim wouldn't even admit it was for that, Ron admitted he was a terrible manager in an interview a LONG time ago, and everything he's done outside of storytelling adventure games has been largely shit.

If Garriott was making a top down Ultima in 8-bit graphics with himself and like 3 other people as a love letter to his past and wouldn't do it without Kickstarter funding, we wouldn't even be here having this conversation.

Edit: I'm going to clear this up before I get pounced on. It's pretty obvious based on the Double Fine Kickstarter that the adventure game getting funded is what Ron Gilbert was working on with them. Tim and Co just never called it out inside the Kickstarter outside of two of the reward options. I'm not saying he refuses to admit he's working on an adventure game with Ron Gilbert at all, he absolutely is willing and has done so. I'm just saying there are lots of reasons Ron Gilbert isn't the best of answers given the circumstances.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Xuri on March 24, 2013, 01:22:28 AM
Fair enough.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Psychochild on March 24, 2013, 01:55:42 AM
I think it's a bit much to say the old designers are irrelevant...

Is it? Name a relevant one. Go ahead.
I should have said it's bit much to say they must be irrelevant, as if "old designer = irrelevant" is an irrefutable fact.  They could be relevant, but tend to rely too heavily on past successes.  As I said, the industry tends to encourage that with the "paying the dues" attitude and the conservatism that creeps into any creative industry.

But, I'll throw out a name: Will Wright.  Yes, I know it's been a while since he set the world on fire.  Spore wasn't exactly a raging success and he's been mired in dealing with shitty business partners the past few years (creative guy sucks at business, film at 11).  But he gave us 2 significant genre-defining games: SimCity and The Sims.  And The Sims is so brilliant that despite being one of the best selling games ever, it's not been cloned successfully; how many other games can claim that?  Plus it was made under the soul-crushing regime of EA.  Anyway, I'll be more interested if Will Wright announced a new project than just about any other new game designer you could mention, and I'm not a particularly huge fan of his games.

But, this starts to come down to matters of taste and opinion.  I think we both broadly agree that the game industry is generally more dysfunctional than a Republican gay sex scandal and that famous game designers need more focus on making successful new games and less focus on self-aggrandizement based on ancient success.

Quote
It's not poisoned yet because no "big budget/winner" projects have been delivered yet. Games, as a lifecycle, take too long for funding from something like Kickstarter.
Oh, certainly.  It's the difference between potential energy and kinetic energy.  We have a lot of potential here for poisoning, but no buckets hitting the bottom quite yet.

Personally, I've stopped bothering to support video game KS projects.  As you say, it's too long a cycle; the end result might be radically different than what is promised.  And, ultimately (har har), the end result is going on sale sometime in the future.  I don't have the resources to get the big rewards, so might as well save my money now and pay a bit extra to know what it is I'm actually going to be buying beyond cotton candy wishes and fairy dust dreams.  Until I see a truly groundbreaking game that cries out to be made and won't be made otherwise; we'll see if such a beast can see the light of day on KS.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Velorath on March 24, 2013, 05:20:45 AM
Better KS RPG than Garriott's.  /discuss
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-building-an-rpg-to-prove-her-brothers-w

1) I can get behind spite as funding motivation.

2) Also seems scammish to me, although that's probably more because it only wanted $829 (someone didn't calculate fees and transaction costs, it seems) and now has $10k+. I predict a backlash.

And you'd be right. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=51287697#post51287697)

Edit: For those who don't want to read the neogaf thread, here's a good summary of the mom who started that Kickstarter:

Quote
Susan Wilson, Founder and CEO

Named to this year's FORTUNE List of the Top Ten Most Powerful Female Entrepreneurs, Susan Wilson is Founder & CEO of The Judgment Group.  A member of Ernst & Young's prestigious Winning Women Program, Susan is now completing her third year of a three year executive education program at Harvard Business School. 

Prior to starting The Judgment Group, Susan was a founding member and the Executive Vice President of a technology startup that raised $12 Million in venture capital, became kinkos.com, and was sold in 2000 to the copy giant Kinko’s for $100 Million. 

A Certified Public Accountant, Susan is a graduate of Georgetown University.  Recently named among the Baltimore regions SmartCEO's, Susan was also declared among Maryland's People to Watch.  In 2007, she was honored as one of the Top 50 Most Influential Collection Professionals for her company’s innovative use of technology in getting judgments paid and justice served. 

Susan is an member of several business organizations and actively mentors and advises other female entrepreneurs as well as young girls.

The self delusion of some of the people in the comments thread on that Kickstarter are incredible.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Merusk on March 24, 2013, 09:48:10 AM
It's not all self-delusion. There's legitimately people who don't see a problem with millionaires, or even billionaires, crowd sourcing their projects and failing on other folks dime.

Hell, I'd do it if I could and not shed a tear about it.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hawkbit on March 24, 2013, 10:50:54 AM
I don't see how the millionaire's project should have been accepted.  Rule 1 states that KS is for developed concept projects.  Rule 3 states no "fund my life" projects, including projects to pay tuition.  It's bonkers.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Velorath on March 24, 2013, 01:08:02 PM
It's not all self-delusion. There's legitimately people who don't see a problem with millionaires, or even billionaires, crowd sourcing their projects and failing on other folks dime.

Hell, I'd do it if I could and not shed a tear about it.

For the most part, I don't see a problem with it either. I wouldn't expect Carmack to fund the Oculus Rift on his own dime.  I don't even care about Garriott's Kickstarter.  If a dozen people are dumb enough to put up $10,000 for a tour of his home, he'd be crazy not to take it.  I'd do the same provided I had some security around for when these clearly insane people starting masturbating in their own shit two seconds after walking through my door.

In the case of the 9 year old girl thing though, the self delusion people are the "I'm paying to make a kid's dream come true and promoting more women in game development" people.  That girl's dreams (if this is even her dream, given that the Kickstarter was clearly written by the mom) would have come true without their money, the girl already has her mother as a pretty good example of how women can be successful, and none of the excess money is going to help women in general get into game development.  All that is combined with the fact that as Hawkbit mentions, this KS only makes the flimsiest pretense about it being for a product


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Venkman on March 24, 2013, 01:57:54 PM
And Taylor Swift wasn't a true kid-from-nowhere story either. So? Stroking people's propensity towards self delusion is the foundation of an open market economy.

I don't begrudge Garriot going to KS. Part of the challenge with launching a business is proving there's a market for a thing. He just proved there is in a way that's far more immediate and believable some a few hundred thousand in qualititative and quantitative research, and more rewarding to him and his fans than stroking the right Angel/VC ego at the right place and time.

Was that the intent of KS? Shit, who cares? Emergent behavior's been ruining cool concepts since fire became a weapon.

His attitude about other designers, well, that's a different story.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hawkbit on March 24, 2013, 02:44:24 PM
Wow, the posts on the 9yr old kid's mom's project are getting good.  Apparently she runs a website that is crowdfunding for women's projects and posts on facebook about her $1500 shoes.  The dirt is being dragged up on this lady. 


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tgr on March 24, 2013, 03:01:20 PM
I'm wondering why people even try this kind of shit these days. It's like they don't realize that there are a lot of autistic people who'll happily hunt down any detail they can find on someone online.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: KallDrexx on March 24, 2013, 03:05:54 PM
I'm wondering why people even try this kind of shit these days. It's like they don't realize that there are a lot of autistic people who'll happily hunt down any detail they can find on someone online.

Because people are idiots so it doesn't matter.  Even with all this shit coming out to light they have still raised $1k from 52 new backers in the last 24 hours (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-building-an-rpg-to-prove-her-brothers-w/#chart-daily).

Until people stop being idiots and do research, there will always be people trying to scam them out of their money (and succeeding).


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Velorath on March 24, 2013, 03:24:03 PM
And Taylor Swift wasn't a true kid-from-nowhere story either. So? Stroking people's propensity towards self delusion is the foundation of an open market economy.

Taylor Swift also sells a product regardless of what I may think of it. The 9 year old's Kickstarter is closer to setting up a fake charity.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hawkbit on March 24, 2013, 04:20:20 PM
Fuck it.  I'm going to KS my kid's summer camp tuition, with the premise that we'll make a website displaying images of of her arts and crafts.  That will be our product.  I'll ask for $300 for the week of camp, and hope for $20k.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Venkman on March 24, 2013, 06:19:50 PM
Lol do it! I'll kick in $10 as my first ever KS support :-)

Taylor Swift also sells a product regardless of what I may think of it. The 9 year old's Kickstarter is closer to setting up a fake charity.
Well technically she's giving you a copy of the game she's making in RPG Maker which she'll be expert at after RPG Stem.

The reason I equate this to TS is because of the man behind the curtain aspect that becomes apparent to anyone willing to dig a bit deeper than what's specifically said. It's just a hell of a lot easier to shread someone who puts themselves out on KS (or on a forum  :awesome_for_real:) than a performer surrounded by retainers and whatnot.

In this case, I blame the mom and hope she learns. Maybe she went into this with good intentions. Maybe she thought KS could be treated like a digital lemonade stand and perhaps her daughter is one of those extremely motivated self-starter types who end up with an MBA at 20 and just needs a little help with the web stuff. I obviously don't know. But I'm surrounded by people who think like this all day long because they really don't get how online people can turn so quickly on them at the first slight. And it annoys me when they miss the obvious ways to keep the walls up around their kids.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 24, 2013, 07:14:09 PM
I should have totally kickstarted the f13 donation drive. Might do that this year. Every stretch goal will be higher end hookers and blow. Because the server is already paid for this year.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Venkman on March 24, 2013, 07:19:51 PM
lol I was going to suggest that a few posts back but got distracted. It'd be more legit than probably 75% what's on there, and you could have real fun with the stretch goal titles  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 24, 2013, 07:55:48 PM
lol I was going to suggest that a few posts back but got distracted. It'd be more legit than probably 75% what's on there, and you could have real fun with the stretch goal titles  :awesome_for_real:
Yuuuuup.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lucas on March 25, 2013, 05:18:56 AM
I should have totally kickstarted the f13 donation drive. Might do that this year. Every stretch goal will be higher end hookers and blow. Because the server is already paid for this year.

But will you ship them overseas? Thankyouverymuch.  :grin:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Falconeer on March 25, 2013, 06:03:12 AM
Sid Meier is still relevant these days. But how much is he actually designing, or directing, or producing? I don't know.

Meanwhile (actually, old news) the dinosaur named David Crane blames (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/177270/Living_in_Pitfalls_shadow.php#.UEoiYVR9lZ0) lack of vision.

Quote
Crane blames the lack of enthusiasm for his campaign on what he sees as a lack of vision among his critics, saying that while there are a lot of different views as to what the strengths of the platform are, it seems limiting when it comes to higher budget productions.

"It's just amazing how there is no vision of what Kickstarter is supposed to be," he says. "People won't let go of what they think it is."

Oh well,

(http://www.atarimagazines.com/hi-res/v1n2/davidcrane.jpg)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Merusk on March 25, 2013, 06:41:14 AM
That quote has to be out of context in some way. It's just so incredibly douchey I can't fully fathom it, even after reading the article.  Other people are wrong because they don't think what I think.. wha?

The most I got out of that article was that Jack Black was in the original Pitfall commercial.  Woah.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: lamaros on March 25, 2013, 06:57:49 AM
But then again, I'm not even trying to work in the industry because it underpays and the majority of managers are man-children who would fail in a non-gaming industry.

Note: Applies to pretty much any industry that is seen as "creative" in any way. Even if it's not.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 25, 2013, 11:00:16 AM
I'm starting to wonder if it's even possible to make a fucking game these days.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Merusk on March 25, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
Only in the smaller dev arena.  We all discussed 3-4 years ago when gaming started tooting its own horn about competing with Movies in terms of revenues how that was going to fuck things up.  Too many hands in the pot, too much at risk on the funding side for them to become anything but the same bullshit churn Hollywood movies have become.

It would be 10x worse if we didn't have internet distribution and everyone was still forced to go to a big publisher or die.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ironwood on March 25, 2013, 12:15:36 PM
/agree


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Pezzle on March 25, 2013, 04:48:26 PM
Filed complaints against the summer camp project as a charity and avatar stuff as not a project.  I have been guilty of backing a couple of gaming projects in the past.  Future backing on my part is going to suffer more scrutiny.  Fund my summer vacation sites already exist.  Kickstarter money will not fully fund the Garriott deal etc..

Of course, if the Kickstarter folks are not interested in maintaining a different type of environment they will continue blindly taking the money!


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Furiously on March 25, 2013, 11:32:24 PM
Meanwhile someone is spamming social media to get more money....

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aztsm/i_am_richard_lord_british_garriott_creator_of_the/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aztsm/i_am_richard_lord_british_garriott_creator_of_the/)



Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 26, 2013, 12:04:10 AM
Was about to link that and say I'm sad no one posted my love letter to Lord Spacenerd in that ridiculous circlejerk.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Segoris on March 26, 2013, 09:40:44 AM
I don't know about others, but I know I tend to not link shit which is made of pure awesome on F13, like this rant, due to the number of star fuckers and LBrit's brown-eye lickers it would bring. That and I didn't know LBrit was hitting reddit, but I think I should have seen that one coming. It's a giant soapbox where he can beg inspire others to donate while also giving him ideas he will use and then can claim to still be creative...for free.

Though, looking at his comments, he does appeal to me and my hatred in one answer. When asked what happened to Ultima 8 after the questioner liked parts 1 & 2 of Ultima 7, the answer was "RG vs EA." True or not, damn it I like that answer and feel bad about liking it due to the source. Luckily that was quickly forgotten as soon as I saw the next questeion and answer: What inspirations were used to make <new piece of shit whatever the fucking name is>? The answer contained a couple titles (mostly his), but ended with this: "all things Blizzard." :uhrr:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hawkbit on March 26, 2013, 11:00:28 PM
C'mon guys, only 50k till we can get weather.

Also, another great quote:  "Fortunately someone in QA could see me and resurrected me."  Leave it to fucking QA, always saving the day.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Hawkbit on March 26, 2013, 11:35:59 PM
http://kotaku.com/internet-rallies-against-kickstarter-for-nine-year-old-459542190

Interestingly,

Quote
The trick is figuring out what to do with the money. Susan no longer wants to use it to pay for tuition for the RPG camp. She'll do that herself. Now she's looking for ideas on how to turn the raised funds into something positive, without violating Kickstarter's terms of service -- no charity, no "fund-my-life". She's not sure how to do it, but she's open to suggestions. She's reached out to Reddit. She's reached out to 4chan.

So if she's not going to use the money for tuition at all, then close the KS?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2013, 10:43:30 AM
She reached out to 4chan? THE FUCK?  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Segoris on March 27, 2013, 10:58:26 AM
These are strange days indeed. Normally it's 4chan reaching out to 9yr olds
:hello_thar:




Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tgr on March 27, 2013, 12:46:38 PM
So if she's not going to use the money for tuition at all, then close the KS?
That'd be the decent/correct thing to do. Don't be silly.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Pezzle on March 27, 2013, 01:06:15 PM
I have come to despise the use of "reaching out" and its various forms.  It is a bland and nearly meaningless phrase that should die off. 


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on March 28, 2013, 10:30:31 AM
I always envision someone "reaching out" with their penis.  This probably isn't normal.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 28, 2013, 11:01:33 AM
It is if 4chan is involved.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: satael on March 28, 2013, 02:57:08 PM
It only keeps getting better: Earlier Wilson Family Crowd-funder Sheds Yet More Kickstarter Doubt (http://theaibots.com/earlier-wilson-family-crowd-funder-sheds-yet-more-kickstarter-doubt/) :popcorn:  :tinfoil:

edit:added a smiley


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Khaldun on March 28, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
Man, read that thread carefully. There is some "there were three guys on the grassy knoll using laser beams on Kennedy" reasoning going on there. Not saying that particular Kickstarter doesn't stink, but let's not get stupid.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Velorath on March 28, 2013, 10:10:01 PM
Man, read that thread carefully. There is some "there were three guys on the grassy knoll using laser beams on Kennedy" reasoning going on there. Not saying that particular Kickstarter doesn't stink, but let's not get stupid.

Yeah, I think this whole thing hit its peak when people found her indiegogo project that claimed to be developing a case for iPhones with a storage compartment. Turns out, the case pictured was an a product already on the market that she was essentially trying to buy and then resell at a markup under the guise of it being a product she created.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: UnSub on April 02, 2013, 12:46:54 AM
Most ridiculous video game Kickstarter I've seen today: APB: Vendetta (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reloadedprod/all-points-bulletin-apb-vendetta).

Or "let's create an Action / Dirty mod for APB - which has been super successful btw, which is why we're franchising this title - and you can pay us $300k for the privilege of letting us do it".

 :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on April 02, 2013, 12:48:42 AM
APB was terrible and $300k won't net them fuckall.

The amount most Kickstarters are asking for to make games is just absurd. It's all WAY too low.

Kickstarter needs to just remove this fucking category. Or curate the ever loving shit out of who they accept.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on April 02, 2013, 08:17:25 AM
Problem with culling the weak is that their checks can be cashed as well as yours or mine.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on April 02, 2013, 04:42:01 PM
Problem with culling the weak is that their checks can be cashed as well as yours or mine.

There will be an inevitable class action against Kickstarter. Then shit gets really out of hand.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Tebonas on April 03, 2013, 07:49:45 AM
Shadowrun and Wasteland 2 will be totally worth the price of fools being parted with their money by Kickstarter scams.

I let you on on a secret - if somebody is stupid enough to get scammed out of his money, somebody will find a way. No need plugging this particular venue, there will just be others.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on April 03, 2013, 08:48:33 AM
This is very true, and it's why I'm not against KS.  Smart people were taking advantage of stupid people from about the time when possessions were invented.  If you want this to stop, you'll need to eliminate all smart people or all stupid people.


I'm voting for eliminating the stupid, if anyone is planning a massacre and needs direction.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: FatuousTwat on April 04, 2013, 05:29:36 AM
Calling Garriott a twat offends me.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Margalis on April 04, 2013, 06:04:17 AM
This is very true, and it's why I'm not against KS.  Smart people were taking advantage of stupid people from about the time when possessions were invented. 

The problem is that KS could actually be a good service, but at least for games is most likely soon going to become a poisoned well.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on April 04, 2013, 08:12:22 AM
Lots of things could be good.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: tgr on April 04, 2013, 09:27:08 AM
Most aren't.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Falconeer on April 06, 2013, 09:00:38 PM
Straight from Chris Roberts in my email:

Quote
Back SotA, Get a Crossbow in Star Citizen!

Attention Citizens,

Breaking news! You heard earlier today that Richard Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar will feature an item designed by Chris Roberts useable in-game... and we've decided to return the favor! If you back both Star Citizen and Shroud of the Avatar at the $40 Adventurer level or higher, we'll give your pilot in Star Citizen a powerful crossbow straight out of Richard's new world... perfect for providing an extra-lethal punch during boarding actions. The Shroud of the Avatar Kickstarter campaign ends in just twelve hours, so make your pledge NOW!

If you would like to pledge via Paypal you can do so here.

 :oh_i_see:  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on April 07, 2013, 01:39:20 AM
dumb


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: satael on April 07, 2013, 03:29:02 AM
I always wonder with these pre-order and limited edition bonus items etc how you are supposed to tune the difficulty of the game. Maybe I'm nostalgic (and looking thru some heavily tinted rose glasses) but the normal difficulty in games used to be something decent in most cases but now (sometimes) there's stuff that makes the (first half of the) game trivial. /ramble


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Venkman on April 07, 2013, 04:07:48 PM
KS has replaced "beta" as the marketing term du jour. From another thread, I get that people want to have hope, and are willing to take a chance. But giving $50 to a new video game only asking for $1mm is burning it. Go see an IMAX movie instead :awesome_for_real:

$1mm, $2mm, $5mm, any number under $40mm for a promised AAA-quality game is just bunk. Those sums will fund some creative to go make a seed money pitch wherefrom the real money comes.

I said earlier that KS is fine for people like RG who want to have an extra datapoint to prove the value of his brand/pitch. And as a datapoint, it's true. But, donating $50 to someone in the business of developing for 800,000 times that amount in budget and who talks to publishes managing 10,000,000 times that amount, well, you might as well just click a LIKE button in Facebook for all that $50 actually matters to the business folks.

I predict that sometime this year or maybe next, KS will become synonymous with Ponzi.

After that shit is going to start to get really expensive with all the indemnities KS et al will need to throw out there.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: palmer_eldritch on April 07, 2013, 04:28:02 PM
The Kickstarter closed today. He got $1.9 million through Kickstarter and another $100,000 or so in donations directly through the game's website.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on April 07, 2013, 04:50:46 PM
Kickstarter will never become synonymous with Ponzi as long as companies keep shipping physical products that work as described (or better - see Pen Type-A for a good example) with it.

The video gaming shit remains beyond stupid.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Falconeer on April 07, 2013, 05:26:21 PM
For anyone who has one hour to spend on something a bit weird but informative (if you are an outsider, like me), check out Matt Barton interviewing Chris Taylor about the fall of Gas Powered Games (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zJdMRKBbLE) (their Kickstarter didn't make it). He speaks so candidly about the industry, having to layoff people, Kickstarter, and literally starts crying at some point while trying to put into perspective the fact that games get funded while projects to save starving kids in Africa don't.

(If the time marker doesn't work, go to 24:35) "This is videogames, what the hell are we doing, why are we losing our focus here..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5zJdMRKBbLE#t=1477s)

You can take this interview any way you want and can have your opinion about Chris Taylor (the man and the designer) but it got me even more annoyed at Garriott and his insane ego.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: UnSub on April 07, 2013, 08:14:22 PM
The projects to save kids in Africa have lousy reward levels. I want a key chain, t-shirt and double-sided poster to show everyone that I care.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Xuri on April 08, 2013, 12:25:45 AM
Thanks for the link, Falconeer, hadn't seen that. Calling it an interview is kind of an overstatement, though. More like an hour long Chris Taylor monologue :) Great stuff, though.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on April 08, 2013, 09:14:15 AM
There are already millions of charitable foundations that cover the charitable projects arena. Kickstarter doesn't need to be involved in that particular area, or any charitable arena for that matter.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Tebonas on April 09, 2013, 02:55:34 AM
I rather the charitable projects I already donate to don't blow their money on stupid swag for reward levels.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on April 09, 2013, 09:04:42 AM
I rather the charitable projects I already donate to don't blow their money on stupid swag for reward levels.

Screw you, I want my PBS totebag.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Mrbloodworth on April 13, 2013, 08:50:32 AM
(http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/u7-bloodfang2.gif)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Phred on May 08, 2013, 02:58:42 AM
You can snark all you want but at least it got Lum a job. 

Quote
-I have (as of this week) joined the merry crew at Portalarium to work on Shroud of the Avatar. Yes, I now work for Richard Garriott. Yes, I am aware of all the irony.

http://brokentoys.org/


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lantyssa on May 08, 2013, 09:33:19 AM
That's it.  I'm never talking to Lum again.

Mainly because he doesn't hang out here anymore. :sad:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on May 08, 2013, 01:19:01 PM
Grab as much from Garriott as you can and run for the hills. It's the only fair thing to do.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Fabricated on May 08, 2013, 01:40:52 PM
Still shameful.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Paelos on May 08, 2013, 01:44:15 PM
Still shameful.

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbbga9vqmq1r1tk2mo1_500.jpg)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Merusk on May 08, 2013, 02:47:13 PM
Blah blah, healthcare, blah blah, 2001, blah blah, get stuffed.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on May 08, 2013, 03:35:58 PM
I find it vastly satisfying thinking that someday someone in that office will come to Lum with a request and he can reply "I cannot help thee with that."  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lucas on May 09, 2013, 05:14:17 AM
Hehe, feels like a "full circle"  :grin: (although another one would be working with Raph and storming into his office from time to time screaming "bring back pre-casting byotch!")


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Falconeer on July 15, 2013, 11:19:07 AM
Where to post Garriott's newest nonsense when its own thread is locked?

Here! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wckfc-0WyPs)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: palmer_eldritch on September 04, 2013, 06:58:57 PM
Shroudies (that's what Shroud of the Avatar fans call ourselves) can now buy an in-game house for just $50 (https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=9085). A HOUSE for just $50, and it's actually half the normal cost of this particular house in the world of Shroud of the Avatar, which is $100.

What's more, anyone can buy this house because it's not restricted to people who donated to the kickstarters. Donors have to pay an extra $50 for this house just like everyone else, so it's fair.

Some of you are just cynical.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ingmar on September 04, 2013, 07:02:23 PM
So you can buy it without actually owning a plot of land to put it on? Bwa ha ha, I wonder how many people will be caught out by the fine print.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: KallDrexx on September 04, 2013, 07:29:51 PM
The serpent ornament looks like a twisted penis.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Stormwaltz on September 04, 2013, 09:21:50 PM
But where's the hangar for my Freelancer?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lucas on September 13, 2013, 03:03:22 PM
No hangar, but good ol' housing: rewind to 1997!!

FAQ (just posted):

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=19#faq_52

Article on Polygon:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/13/4724762/lord-british-and-the-oklahoma-land-rush


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: palmer_eldritch on September 13, 2013, 05:01:49 PM
So you can buy it without actually owning a plot of land to put it on? Bwa ha ha, I wonder how many people will be caught out by the fine print.

Lord British has clearly heard your plea, for he is now selling said plots of land for the fair price of $150 each. That's just the empty plot of land of course, but very useful if you've already spent $50 on a house and need somewhere to place it.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: palmer_eldritch on September 13, 2013, 05:02:24 PM
Don't ask me how I know these things.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Merusk on September 13, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
Seek professional help.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Venkman on September 22, 2013, 10:17:38 AM
3 month update video:
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=27965

Can't tell if this was already posted.

Definitely old school. But as UO was my first ever MMO, this video brings me back, well, enough to keep me from unsubscribing to the email blasts anyway.

Not paying any real money for any hangar/ship/house/plot of course. That shit doesn't have any real world value unless I can make money back on it, which is very not-at-all how I play these games.

So anyway, as long as the usual string of conditions are met, I might be interested in someday playing.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on September 23, 2013, 10:25:58 PM
Yeesh.  That inventory.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on September 24, 2013, 01:49:47 PM
There's nostalgia and there's plain bad fucking UI design. Guess which one those bags fall into.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Merusk on September 25, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
 :ye_gods:  :uhrr:

It's not bad enough that you have to drag and drop, no right click, no "loot all."  You have to do it for each individual item, and then again when you split that item? It's 1998 all over again!

This is going to be hilarious to watch.  I hope those 3,000 people get their $85 worth, and L.B. can run a business on it because I don't see it getting much larger.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lucas on September 25, 2013, 07:04:32 PM
Let's decorate our house with Richard Garriott! Everything you need for your OCD!  :grin:

http://youtu.be/n8tKuMvUYzY


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Venkman on September 26, 2013, 04:53:33 PM
There's nostalgia and there's plain bad fucking UI design. Guess which one those bags fall into.
Yea but that's what our nostalgia is of. The early shit sucked UI-wise while we were getting dickpunched by the game mechanic itself. And we paid a monthly fee for it while probably PlayerAuction'ing for a leg up.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Signe on September 26, 2013, 07:31:54 PM
The sleeping bag should be IN the tent otherwise what's the purpose of having a tent at all?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: craan on October 29, 2013, 05:16:11 AM
It seems like I will still have to snoop through 20 different bags in a toon's backpack to find their Black Pearl and/or Mandrake Root to steal so they can't Recall or cast any useful spells.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Mrbloodworth on November 01, 2013, 12:29:53 PM
Shroud of the Avatar Developer Commentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUTWBcXQFyo&feature=youtu.be)


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Lucas on December 12, 2013, 05:51:00 AM
Looks like they're opting for staggered release of (presumably) alpha content (to get optimized along the way).

Long post (sorry, apparently I can't use a spoiler tag in this section of the forums) :

Quote
Hello Everyone,

We are incredibly excited to get Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtues on your desktops very soon! As you have seen via our updates and progress videos, we have been making steady progress since our successful Kickstarter earlier this year. We have built out sections of the world while also developing housing, combat, crafting, conversations, AI, story and inventory. As our backers, you have a critical role to play in our development by providing feedback on design and soon the game itself.

As a crowd funded and crowd sourced project, we feel it is incredibly important that we provide our backers with information and access well before game studios would normally do so in a traditional development model. Traditionally, the players are given information and access only after the development team has already decided exactly how things will be done and even after it has already been implemented. By the time the public has access to the product, there is usually no time to meaningfully react to the public feedback

Shroud of the Avatar is different than the traditional model, as we intend to offer our backers extremely early access to information and even the game itself. With that said, we also want to be very careful that we only provide access to portions of the game when they are ready for a wider range of feedback. If we can play it internally and we know it is not ready, then there is nothing to be gained by having a wider audience come to the same conclusion. In fact, it could be quite damaging to do so.

Our strategy over the next few months is to provide you with focused and iterative releases of content. Your feedback during these releases will be critical to making the final product the best it can be and we appreciate that you are all so willing to devote your time to helping us. The first few releases will be very tightly scoped so access will be confined to a few days. With Release 4, we will have a representative game loop and we will likely increase access time. Please note that game data will be wiped periodically during early access.

Below is the currently planned schedule for releases over the next few months. It is important to note that all dates and deliverables are subject to change.

RELEASE 1: December 12 – December 14, 2013

Install / Patching system: Step one for you guys to play the game is for you to download the game and then patch the game. Since this is the first hands on impression of the product, it is critical.
Login / Registration: Players should be able to log in using their existing accounts and if they have not yet registered, they should be intuitively led to the steps to register.
Character Creation: Players should be able to create and customize their character. Creation / Customization options for Release 1 will include: name, gender, head shape, skin tone, hair style, hair color, and eye color.
Single Player Online: All public releases prior to commercial launch will be online only. For Release 1 and 2, it will be constrained to single player online only.
First Town: Our first town (perhaps Owl’s Head) will be open for business. This is important for testing purposes so we can better tune our performance metrics on real user machines. For Release 1, exiting the town will just funnel you back into the same town (anyone see Groundhog Day?)
Conversation: Important that players converse with the townsfolk so we can start expanding the dialog system. As you talk to NPCs, we will be tracking your conversations and using them to add more content based on your input.
Bag Inventory: This is a hot topic in the forums so we want to get it in your hands for feedback on preferences. Immersion vs. ease of use, let the battle begin!
Equipment: Players will be provided with several chests full of “ph@t lootz” (armor, clothes, weapons, etc.) for trying on for size.
House Claiming: Players will be able to select a house from the entire list of player houses (even Lord of the Manor!) for free so that we can test out the various size houses on the lots and allow players to test drive the various houses so they can have a better idea of which they ultimately want to own.
House Decorating: Chests full of furniture and decorative items will be provided so you can stress test the decoration system and try out various styles of interiors. Help us figure out all the ways you can break things! (Look forward to screenshot contests on this!)
Metrics: All the while you are playing, we will be stress testing our metrics system. This system is critical to maintaining a balanced economy, tracking exploits, and gathering data to improve the experience.

RELEASE 2: January 24 – January 26 2014

Crafting: We will be opening up crafting for testing with more than 100 recipes. Chests full of crafting resources will be provided. Crafting will initially focus on refining and production for smithing, tailoring, and carpentry.
Shopping: Shopkeepers will be open for business for selling and buying.
Town 2: An additional municipality (likely village sized) will be open for business! Exiting one municipality will take you immediately to the other municipality.
List Inventory: For those who prefer spreadsheets to immersion. The inventory battle royale continues!
Character Customization++: Characters will be wiped, but you will now have even more options when creating your character to make it look unique including: facial features, scaling, and more content (hairstyles, head shapes, skin tones, hair colors, etc.)

RELEASE 3: February 20 – 22, 2014

Open Multiplayer Online: FINALLY we will let you see what the other players look like BUT we’ll be taking away your house for the month as we prepare housing to have persistence in the multiplayer space for Release 4.
Chat: You know, so you can talk to your friends!
Emotes: More than 30 emotes online so you can look like a clown with your friends.
Town 3: A third municipality opens up (perhaps the lovely oceanside village of Kingsport).

RELEASE 4: March 20 – ?, 2014

Hidden Vale: A hidden island north north east of the mainland with numerous biomes to explore via the overworld map system
10 Hidden Vale Scenes: With the opening of the overworld, we need something to do between the cities so we will be turning on the first 10 scenes including wilderness, caves, and dungeons.
Combat / Magic: Those first 10 scenes might have stuff in them, so we’ve decided we should give you a way to fight back! A wide array of combat and magic skills, along with the ability to assemble these skills into decks, will now become available.
Advancement and Skill Trees: Players will start earning experience points for fighting, crafting, and questing. This will lead to level increases and skill points which can be spent to learn new skills or improve existing skills.
Quests: Players will be able to participate in quests that will send them around the world and even change game state in the scenes based on quest flags. Testing this early is important because our quest system operates differently than the current standards (e.g. no exclamation points or convo trees).
Loot: Creatures and quests will generate loot including gold and resources.
Crafting: Resource Gathering will be added to crafting including resource nodes placed in the world. Item wear begins happening and in turn, Repair will now be available. Item enhancement will now also be possible, allowing upgrading of items to more powerful versions. On top of all that, more recipes will become available
Player Housing: The housing system will be relaunched with persistence in the online space. Housing choices will now be based on backer level, add on purchase, or what can be bought in the game. Waterfront housing will also come online.
Wearable Dyeing: Clothing and Armor will now be dyeable
Social Systems: The first social systems will come online including Friends and Parties. Safety in numbers!

Thank you again for being such an amazing community who has selflessly given us so much. We are humbled that you have faith enough in us to provide us the financial backing we need to make this game. We cannot wait to share more with you when it is ready.

Sincerely,
Starr Long
Executive Producer
Shroud of the Avatar

And yeah, Release 1 is today.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Yegolev on December 19, 2013, 07:29:45 PM
Dates: aggressive as fuck.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 11:59:59 AM
So this released today. And there's a free trial available. So guess what I'm doing.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ironwood on March 27, 2018, 12:03:28 PM
Tugging it ?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
That would accomplish so much more than playing this game I'm sure but fuck it. I love dissing shitty games and I'm sure this will be one.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ironwood on March 27, 2018, 12:05:05 PM
Let us know how it goes.

....

THE GAME.  GOD, THE GAME.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Sir T on March 27, 2018, 12:11:42 PM
Would you compare the pain to a thudding ache all along the right side of your head, or more like the scalding pain of a burn?


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 12:14:34 PM
We'll find out after I download the giant horking Day 1 patch.

It's like 1999/2001/2003 all over again.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 01:08:02 PM
Well, this is entirely special. Like your old gran who you put in a home years ago expecting her to die but she just won't kick even though her legs don't work right and her mind is going.

It's that. In 3D. With the ghosts of your MMOG youth dancing around in front of you like a stripper way past her prime with scars on her belly from where she cuts herself to feel alive trying to entice you with her wares.

It's not bad. If you have to play a 3D MMOGish thing that is a blatant rehash of the entire Ultima (single player and MMOG) theme including a character creation that is a series of questions from the Oracle and you being named the Avatar, well, this is your game.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ironwood on March 27, 2018, 01:27:41 PM
Uh, Hard Pass ?



Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Sky on March 27, 2018, 01:47:35 PM
Can it be played as a single player game (not on a server, just a local game?). Besides not caring for mmo anymore, UO was kind of a trainwreck and not something to tout reviving... I can't imagine a single thing having other players running around would enhance in a positive way.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 01:49:28 PM
Yes I think so. There was an option for single-player stuff in the menu just not sure how extensive it is.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 27, 2018, 03:34:37 PM
playing this is the gaming equivalent of being a trump voter


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Ginaz on March 27, 2018, 06:11:28 PM
So this released today. And there's a free trial available. So guess what I'm doing.

Voting Trump would have given you fewer regrets than playing this.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Trippy on March 27, 2018, 06:22:41 PM
I don't even remember what game this is.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: HaemishM on March 27, 2018, 06:49:04 PM
Kickstartered Ultima Online in 3D.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: Rendakor on March 27, 2018, 07:29:26 PM
Took me a while to realize it wasn't Star Citizen.


Title: Re: ATTN SPACE LARPER: CHECK YOURSELF
Post by: schild on March 27, 2018, 08:20:48 PM
star citizen probably has more game elements