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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Movies  |  Topic: Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.) 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)  (Read 168563 times)
Khaldun
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Reply #2170 on: July 29, 2018, 10:43:12 AM

The problem is that the consequences are so uneven. E.g., the President of the United States can be on tape bragging about assault and harassment and his social media use is consistently horrific going back a decade and it means nothing; etc. etc.

If there's a significant group of people who inflict consequences on others but never suffer them for similar or worse conduct, then it's the losing strategy of Prisoner's Dilemma and anybody playing that strategy has to stop--mutual defection and mutual no-defection are the only way to go.
HaemishM
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Reply #2171 on: July 29, 2018, 11:42:12 AM

I think NBC hiring Roseanne Barr knowing her history of saying horrible shit was bad but they didn't fire her because someone just brought up that stuff again.

Roseanne Barr was hired by ABC not NBC, who are owned by Disney. Disney fired Gunn as a "SEE WE'RE FAIR TO BOTH SIDES" make up firing.

eldaec
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Reply #2172 on: July 29, 2018, 12:52:22 PM

The problem is that the consequences are so uneven. E.g., the President of the United States can be on tape bragging about assault and harassment and his social media use is consistently horrific going back a decade and it means nothing; etc. etc.


If Disney were able to fire the president of the United States I believe they would do so.

Honestly it isn't just a Disney thing. Most major public facing corporations would fire Trump and many other politicians, and they wouldn't look back.

Many of the problems in the national discourse of rich western democracies, were solved inside corporations some years ago. Not always in the best possible way, but this shit doesn't stand inside major corps.

I'm also not saying the corporate solutions are appropriate in the public world, obviously.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 12:56:50 PM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
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jgsugden
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Reply #2173 on: July 29, 2018, 07:41:50 PM

Roseanne Barr was hired by ABC not NBC, who are owned by Disney. Disney fired Gunn as a "SEE WE'RE FAIR TO BOTH SIDES" make up firing.
So you think that if Roseanne had not been an idiot, Gunn would not have been fired?

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
HaemishM
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Reply #2174 on: July 29, 2018, 07:54:05 PM

Possibly? I'm still fine with Roseanne getting fired into the sun, mind you.

Khaldun
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Reply #2175 on: July 29, 2018, 10:02:19 PM

I dunno. There's a very clear way to deal with this. You hire someone with bad tweeting/statements in their past, and you say: you do it again, and you're fired, done. You also say at the time of hiring: anything you want to tell us about your social media past? Pseudonyms, sock puppets, stuff no one has noticed yet? If they say nope and something surfaces, see, "you're fired, done".

This also separates out "bad social media/public culture statements" from "I have been rapey and abusive to partners or strangers in the past", which is a different kettle of fish.

So ok, on those grounds:

Barr is done. Not because of her past, but because she was warned not to pull that shit again while working for them. She did. Done.

Gunn is not done. Because he told them about it, it had received previous coverage and was very well known to Disney when they hired for GOTG 1, and he's not done it again.

I don't think this is a particularly difficult distinction to make, and it's one that's actually quite friendly to corporate authority--e.g., it lets them be the arbiters of moral improvement while more or less saying, "We're not responsible for past asshattery online" in a way that secures the liability and reputational gates pretty firmly.

Yes, there's a subsector of the online left that doesn't accept this standard. It should be no more trouble to stand them down than it is to ignore someone like Cernovich. Corporations didn't used to worry about what David Duke or Bob Avakian were publishing in their newsletters, for fuck sake.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #2176 on: July 29, 2018, 10:26:32 PM

Of course, the fact that there are actual pedophiles in the Hollywood upper ranks is a complicating factor. Not that Cernovich and company have actually targeted one, or are unaware that they haven't. But throwing Gunn to the wolves might protect people who really deserve a stretch in Federal custody as a chomo. Or feel to them like it has.

--Dave

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Abagadro
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Reply #2177 on: July 30, 2018, 12:21:44 AM

The only reason Gunn was targeted was because he was publicly ripping Trump.  Stupidest timeline continues in the era of this most idiotic of cults.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Khaldun
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Reply #2178 on: July 30, 2018, 12:02:47 PM

Despite a lot of talk from Corey Feldman, so far there's Kevin Spacey and Roman Polanski in the "accused by name of pedophilia/underage sex within Hollywood" box, and only Spacey really has been accused of regularly prowling around teenagers working in Hollywood/mass media. Cernovich and others are keen in part to paint Hollywood as a conspiracy of pedophiles because there's a bright line between that and just being a garden-variety sexual abuser/harasser of women, which includes plenty of figures on the right, from the POTUS right down to the scum level that Cernovich himself oozes within. Plus for some it's "revenge" for Milo being pushed outside of acceptability within Republican circles over this issue.

That bright line is really why Gunn wrote those tweets (or for that matter Milo made his remarks)--you can see it pretty clearly. What's the easiest way to establish you're an edgelord bad boy who loves to mock the bourgeois squares? Joke about rape and pedophilia. To some extent, it's also why the 8chan crowd got drawn into racism and misogyny early on--it was the easiest way to get a rise out of the normies and get any conversation diverted or distorted. At some point it stopped being an act for a lot of them, and I suppose someone who got endless pleasure about pedophilia and rape jokes might eventually drift beyond the joking. Clearly that's not Gunn.
Velorath
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Reply #2179 on: July 30, 2018, 12:57:40 PM

Despite a lot of talk from Corey Feldman, so far there's Kevin Spacey and Roman Polanski in the "accused by name of pedophilia/underage sex within Hollywood" box, and only Spacey really has been accused of regularly prowling around teenagers working in Hollywood/mass media.

Also Bryan Singer. Plus there was the whole Victor Salva thing which helpfully illustrates the change in the industry in that Disney knowingly went ahead with the production of Powder back in the mid-90's even after finding out that Salva was a convicted child molester and despite protests from one of his victims.
MediumHigh
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Reply #2180 on: July 30, 2018, 02:17:09 PM

Either your held accountable for your online profile. Or your not. And while I don't believe you should be held accountable for your online profile, if we are to use peoples online persona against them keep in mind its a sword that cuts both ways. And worse it can be relatively to whats morally acceptable at any given time. Even if my "edge lord" days I'd never make a rape or pedophile joke so I'm really hard pressed to defend james gunn and go "no no this is line we don't cross, firing people who already apologized for offensive shit they said in their 30s". No we already lapped that line and doing selfies over the ruin careers.

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Threash
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Reply #2181 on: July 30, 2018, 03:41:57 PM

Edit by Trippy: replaced by less headache inducing version:

« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 03:50:02 PM by Trippy »

I am the .00000001428%
Velorath
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Reply #2182 on: July 30, 2018, 10:20:32 PM

Either your held accountable for your online profile. Or your not.

What does that even mean?
schild
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Reply #2183 on: July 30, 2018, 11:16:13 PM

It doesn’t mean anything. It’s not even provocative.
MediumHigh
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Reply #2184 on: July 30, 2018, 11:48:23 PM

Either your held accountable for your online profile. Or your not.

What does that even mean?


It means either your held accountable for every facebook post, tweet, and reddit post or your not. Which at this time is a mute point. You are held accountable the question is by who and when now.

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Abagadro
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Reply #2185 on: July 31, 2018, 12:18:45 AM

Which at this time is a mute point.


"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Velorath
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Posts: 7966


Reply #2186 on: July 31, 2018, 01:00:10 AM

Either your held accountable for your online profile. Or your not.

What does that even mean?


It means either your held accountable for every facebook post, tweet, and reddit post or your not. Which at this time is a mute point. You are held accountable the question is by who and when now.

So you don't actually know what it means either.
eldaec
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Reply #2187 on: July 31, 2018, 02:37:00 AM

Either your held accountable for your online profile. Or your not.

What does that even mean?


It means either your held accountable for every facebook post, tweet, and reddit post or your not. Which at this time is a mute point. You are held accountable the question is by who and when now.

Your != You're

For some reason I find possibly intentional apostrophe abuse more annoying than probably intentional misuse of mute.



« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 02:38:51 AM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Ironwood
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Reply #2188 on: July 31, 2018, 04:26:43 AM

Everyone knows that it's the permanence that's the problem.

It's just riotously unfair to compare Roseanne (tweeted five minutes ago 'Fuck All Niggers') with Gunn (Tweeted years ago some bad taste jokes that have since been apologised, moved on from.)

Now, I have a particular view of the actual content Gunn said (ie ;  what kind of STUPID MOTHERFUCKER WERE YOU ?), but it's quite clear that this type of political dredging NEEDS to have some better judgement thrown around it.

We're literally living in a world where everything a kid does is going to be subject to this kind of permanence, so we need to fucking sort it out.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
eldaec
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Reply #2189 on: July 31, 2018, 05:57:51 AM

The thing I find especially strange about that is that old fuckers like most people here basically never use real names online whereas 'kids today' use traceable real names all the goddamn time.

I don't quite know when or why it changed, but probably blame Facebook.

Not really applicable to a professional entertainer posting on an account they use for their professional business. But for normal people I still find it weird and remarkable that anyone will post anything in public using their real name ever.

I'm sure I've posted stupid shit that would not look good in the wrong context. Not Roseanne or James Gunn stupid, but stupid nonetheless.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #2190 on: July 31, 2018, 08:33:34 AM

We were the first generation to have the internet and only the savvy ones of us realized what a dangerous clusterfuck it could be, we sure as hell never thought to truly teach our children about the dangers of it, since we didn't even know yet what IT would become . We are going to find the first generation that grows up with the internet being a ubiquitous part of their life are going to be proper fucked. It's going to take those kids growing up to teach their kids how to be safe on it.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Khaldun
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Reply #2191 on: July 31, 2018, 10:38:38 AM

Almost all of my online writing has taken place under my own name and professional identity.

So from the outset I was pretty damn careful about it. That's really what's odd about people who came a bit later: they "acted out in plain sight" and assumed the Internet was ephemeral. I feel like those of us who came early assumed the opposite--if you were on Usenet, you had already seen people dredging up shit from five years ago, or pulling in a post someone made on the WELL or GEnie or something, and you knew: this stuff is as forever as any other kind of writing.
Trippy
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Reply #2192 on: September 18, 2018, 03:59:40 PM

Captain Marvel stuff moved to here: http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=25938.0
justdave
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Reply #2193 on: September 22, 2018, 01:54:56 PM

...if you were on Usenet, you had already seen people dredging up shit from five years ago, or pulling in a post someone made on the WELL or GEnie or something, and you knew: this stuff is as forever as any other kind of writing.

I think you're onto something, there. Now that I look back, Usenet was basically the SERE training of Internet usage.

"They started to resist with a crust that was welded with human brain and willpower."
Trippy
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Reply #2194 on: September 22, 2018, 02:14:14 PM

...if you were on Usenet, you had already seen people dredging up shit from five years ago, or pulling in a post someone made on the WELL or GEnie or something, and you knew: this stuff is as forever as any other kind of writing.
I think you're onto something, there. Now that I look back, Usenet was basically the SERE training of Internet usage.
As an aside early Usenet was a different place than what it would become (which is basically what Reddit is except in purely text form). Back then it was just us people in tech-focused universities and select high-tech companies, all using our real identities, as Khaldun mentioned. Then it became available to the masses (LOL AOL) and all hell broke loose. Also back then the news posting software would admonish you every time you tried to submit an article that doing so would would cause your article to be sent to many many machines costing many many dollars and are you sure you really want to send it? Which would always give me pause and often cause me to either not send or rewrite the article.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #2195 on: September 22, 2018, 02:33:42 PM

It wasn't all roses and sunshine, you can draw a straight line from alt.syntax.tactical to Something Awful and Stile Project, which were the breeding ground of modern troll culture. And although the Crusader Incident (white supremacist email and Usenet spammer) was post-AOL, the perpetrator was a college student (and later became the server admin for the first neo Nazi web sites).

--Dave
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 02:38:45 PM by MahrinSkel »

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
Khaldun
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Reply #2196 on: September 22, 2018, 06:15:34 PM

For sure. But that's the point--if you were there at the beginning, you saw the evil shit that people could do. You saw trolling, you saw doxxing, you saw people catfishing, etc. I remember one WELL-descended forum where there was a person who wrote as if she was a woman in an unhappy marriage and then spun a whole line about her cancer diagnosis, and "she" eventually got unveiled as a chronically ill 55-year old man who had six or seven alts on the same forum.

People who came along a bit later went through the whole same cycle again--they didn't pick up on what we'd all learned--but this time it wasn't a strange little isolated subculture, it was the whole damn world. I guess at least we're at the point where even the noobs understand that, sort of.
Soln
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Reply #2197 on: September 23, 2018, 02:00:51 AM

I always had trouble taking it seriously.  alt.lorne-greene.hamster.ducttape.wesleycrusherdiedie ruined me (I know they were unique and I’m combining 3 together).
Raguel
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Reply #2198 on: October 04, 2018, 02:22:43 PM

tweet from Chris Evans

Rendakor
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Reply #2199 on: October 04, 2018, 03:01:48 PM

What a not-so-surprising surprise!

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jgsugden
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Reply #2200 on: October 05, 2018, 11:12:31 PM

You know, it sounds like a goodbye... but it doesn't actually say it is.

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
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