Camelot Unchained

[Sparky]

I think PVE with a threat of occasional ganks is still PVE.  Unless you're going to argue that, say, EVE has no PVE.  Splitting hairs really.

[Ingmar]

Yeah but you're saying a game has good PVE, when actually what you're enjoying is the PVP facet of it. The PVE in DAOC was shit regardless of whether someone tried to kill you or not.

[Venkman]

There's dozens of niche MMOs that have PvP. That part is valid. But that these represent a sizeable enough market to target with a responsibly-budgeted and produced PvP-focused MMO? Nah.

Don't confuse PvP and RvR.

I'm not. One's a method, the other's a motivation. Unless you're implying RvR is somehow a bigger market than the niche PvP, it's splitting hairs on the core point.

DAOC's pve was bad. GW2 is not.

It wasn't all bad.  I have very fond memories of that dungeon that rotated between the factions.  On a rotation you'd have stealthers of the other faction hiding out, PVPers of our own chasing down reports of enemies and PVEers trying to grab the very nice rewards.  MMOs nowadays tend to be very shy about exposing PVEers to any risk of PVP because sure it's aggravating to have your time wasted by an internet psycho, but it did add a frisson to the grind.  Long as the rewards make up for the added risk it's a nice option I think.

iirc that was the Darkness Falls zone? I did like that alot. But I also wouldn't compare DAoC PvE to GW2. Everything about both are very different. Except that occasionally there's groups of mobs standing around waiting to be killed

[Ingmar]

There's dozens of niche MMOs that have PvP. That part is valid. But that these represent a sizeable enough market to target with a responsibly-budgeted and produced PvP-focused MMO? Nah.

Don't confuse PvP and RvR.

I'm not. One's a method, the other's a motivation. Unless you're implying RvR is somehow a bigger market than the niche PvP, it's splitting hairs on the core point.

Not at all. There are almost no games that serve the RvR market, which is a *different* niche market than the "dozens" of other niche PVP games. It is incorrect to say that an RvR game will be competing directly against free for all PVP games and arena PVP games, because there is a reasonably large group of players who are not served at all by those games.

[Venkman]

Ah I get ya. You think there's a large potential market for MMO-style RvR.

I'm skeptical. There's been the potential for such a market for 10+ years once broadband became pervasive and we passed the point that just playing on launch month was a high achievement.

I think that potential market doesn't exist. Maybe DAoC never really being huge and them WAR being a high profile failure skewed perceptions. But then, SWG skewed perspective of the potential for a UO-style MMO too. And Planetside 2 is likely no bigger than Planetside 1.

It'd take a company with sufficient skill and deep pockets to even just try any of these old ideas again. But why should they? A decade ago when everything was shiny and new and people would actually pay for this stuff, really??, they could afford to smoke and mirrors the VCs and angel investors with promises of like-EQ-but-better and then like-WoW-but-better and then go on to hail mary into f2p just to keep the lights on.

But things have matured too much for even the most ignorant money people to bite, especially when big budget games in general are contracting at the same time "$3 is too much for an iPhone game" is rising.

So the other option is a small but dedicated team to find a way to do RvR right but on the cheap. Somehow.

[Nebu]

What?  a few instanced BGs is "enjoyable pvp"?  I mean those 2 games would be among the last on my list as "enjoyable pvp".  RIFT class balance pvp wise was also in the "roflmao" category  .

Best pvp game available is WoT, but you can't really call it an MMO.  It has advancement, complexity, and a great balance of strategy and twitch.  It is also instance based.  I played DAoC for 6 years and it was fun for its time, but playing on a Euro freeshard lately has reminded me that the game definitely had its issues.

So what pvp MMO's do you consider not ROFLMAO worthy?  I can't think of a single one save Shadowbane... which was laced with other issues.

[Dark_MadMax]

Best pvp game available is WoT, but you can't really call it an MMO.  It has advancement, complexity, and a great balance of strategy and twitch.  It is also instance based.

I also agree that WoT is quite good when it comes to instanced non-fantasy pvp, and there  more good pvp games  -such as planetside2 for example.

So what pvp MMO's do you consider not ROFLMAO worthy?  I can't think of a single one save Shadowbane... which was laced with other issues.

I consider GW2 to be probably best fantasy pvp on the market right now. Not without its issues but its a bar other projects have to match at least.  WWW is solid.

Arena really dropped the ball with spvp  though when they could have made it very popular , now it in rather dead than alive . most duelers/arena pvp'ers right now are playing moba (LoL/Dota2) ,wow arena or nothing at all. Which kinda makes me sad cause none of those are particularly great  (well LoL is great but its moba)

I think that potential market doesn't exist. Maybe DAoC never really being huge and them WAR being a high profile failure skewed perceptions. But then, SWG skewed perspective of the potential for a UO-style MMO too. And Planetside 2 is likely no bigger than Planetside 1.

I tend to think this way too.  market is just not very large. I mean Planetside2 is great game, yet it is not very big. There is nothing truly wrong with GW2 WWW ,it is awesome in many ways and objectively way better than DAOC ever was or could be , yet community is lukewarm about it . Large mmo pvp market is a myth - it is sizeable , but you really ought to do something exceptionally great if you want capture large part of it as there are plenty of offerings out there which have "good pvp" - even though its not always fantasy and more often than not instanced. 

Most real pvp'ers (as in those who play it for fun)  gave up on ever getting good pvp in mmos and pvp where its good, not where there are elfs.

[Nebu]

I consider GW2 to be probably best fantasy pvp on the market right now. Not without its issues but its a bar other projects have to match at least.  WWW is solid.

I think our disagreement is one of personal taste then.  I found the PvP (both 5v5 and WWW) in GW2 to be bland.  I bought GW2 for the pvp and was very disappointed. 

[satael]

Rift and SWTOR both had enjoyable PvP but they were still too gear dependent.  Rift suffered from some serious balance issues as well.  The difficulty with a pvp game is that you need to provide an advancement path that a) won't make the power differential too great and b) won't turn it into a WoW gear-fest.

Rift World PVP was bad. I was in a guild that tried to do it but there was no real reason for the other side to try and stop us from roaming the map or holding some point. We even had some scheduled times for this (by announcing it in advance on the forums) but it amounted to nothing. The only  time world pvp was any fun was when we had arranged to fight against some other guilds in advance but even that was pretty meh 

[Nebu]

I agree completely.  I played on a pvp server for a while in Rift and it was a joke.  The BG's had moments where they were fun though. 

[Dark_MadMax]

I consider GW2 to be probably best fantasy pvp on the market right now. Not without its issues but its a bar other projects have to match at least.  WWW is solid.

I think our disagreement is one of personal taste then.  I found the PvP (both 5v5 and WWW) in GW2 to be bland.  I bought GW2 for the pvp and was very disappointed. 

I should have clarified that its best fantasy pvp mmo on current market yet  that doesnt meant its amazing or even good  for me to play as pvp game.  I bought gw2 for pvp as well yet I only play it for world exploration (world and events imho the best part of GW2 by far)

Just if judging objectively GW2 pvp is pretty good if compared to competition. It lacks a lot of focus ,polish and features to make it good spvp game , but as far as www goes  there is no better offers right now if RvR is your cup of tea (they even added www ranks/progression this patch) . GW2 pvp is better than WoW, Rift ,SWTOR, TSW or whatever.   A

[Falconeer]

I feel it's a huge stretch to compare PvP games like World of Tanks and Rift when trying to determine which are the good PvP games out there.
As far as I can remember no one used to call, say, Quake deathmatch "PvP" back in the 90s, and since the term was coming from MUDs it took the first open world multiplayer RPGs to make the term popular, so UO, EQ and so on. Not a big deal, technically everything that puts two players against each other is PlayerVsPlayer (Pong first PvP game ever?) but do you really feel comfortable comparing Warthunder to Guild Wars 2 to Battlefield 3 to Blood Bowl to World of Warcraft to Day Z? Does it make any sense?

There's plenty of games these days where you can play to kill other players and have lots of fun and/or compete. World of Tanks is certainly one, so is Planetside, so is GW2 WvW, so is Mechwarrior Online, and so is League of Legends, and Day Z and EVE. It's just that the only thing they have in common is the human factor  and the need to kill. They don't do it the same way, don't do it at the same pace, don't do it with the some tools, don't do it with the same rules and don't necessarily do it according to the same ethics. So how can you just name "good PvP games" without separating them in several different subcategories?

[Nebu]

Just if judging objectively GW2 pvp is pretty good if compared to competition. It lacks a lot of focus ,polish and features to make it good spvp game , but as far as www goes  there is no better offers right now if RvR is your cup of tea (they even added www ranks/progression this patch) . GW2 pvp is better than WoW, Rift ,SWTOR, TSW or whatever.   A

I will agree with your statement.  It's the best we have... which is a pretty sad commentary on what the market currently offers. 

I was shocked about GW2 to be honest.  GW's best feature was the pvp.  I found it quite strange that it would be the world PvE that would shine in GW2.  Of course, the craptastic dungeons didn't disappoint.

[satael]

Just if judging objectively GW2 pvp is pretty good if compared to competition. It lacks a lot of focus ,polish and features to make it good spvp game , but as far as www goes  there is no better offers right now if RvR is your cup of tea (they even added www ranks/progression this patch) . GW2 pvp is better than WoW, Rift ,SWTOR, TSW or whatever.   A

I will agree with your statement.  It's the best we have... which is a pretty sad commentary on what the market currently offers. 

I was shocked about GW2 to be honest.  GW's best feature was the pvp.  I found it quite strange that it would be the world PvE that would shine in GW2.  Of course, the craptastic dungeons didn't disappoint.

GW2 probably had the best time played/price paid -ratio of any game in a long while for me and it was all due to the wvw which kept me interested for 6+ months (stopped playing when the wvw-patch came out)

[Xanthippe]

DAOC's pve was bad. GW2 is not.

It wasn't all bad.  I have very fond memories of that dungeon that rotated between the factions.  On a rotation you'd have stealthers of the other faction hiding out, PVPers of our own chasing down reports of enemies and PVEers trying to grab the very nice rewards.  MMOs nowadays tend to be very shy about exposing PVEers to any risk of PVP because sure it's aggravating to have your time wasted by an internet psycho, but it did add a frisson to the grind.  Long as the rewards make up for the added risk it's a nice option I think.

iirc that was the Darkness Falls zone? I did like that alot. But I also wouldn't compare DAoC PvE to GW2. Everything about both are very different. Except that occasionally there's groups of mobs standing around waiting to be killed

Yes, Darkness Falls - that was a lot of fun when it switched over, although the trains were... well, trains. I saw DF more as wvw than pve but it was both.

[Spiff]

I doubt GW2 will be used much as a motivator for new and bigger efforts into RvR really. Not because it's bad, but how do you make money out of it?
It's all about the RMT, which fits very well with sparkleponies, sex/race/name changes and whatnot, but I see those as things a PvE crowd would care most about.
If you start selling things that actually matter to people focused on RvR you very quickly get into Pay-to-Win territory and scare the masses off in droves.

People might be ready to accept slight boosts bought with actual cash in something like WoT, but in GW2 the same would cause an uproar.

Arenanet just saw a gap in the market and wanted to cast a net as wide as possible, but it's pointless to spend time and money on improving and balancing something like RvR 'till it's as polished as it could be. There's no money in it and who cares if those people swim off to a new shiny? It's not like they're losing a sub.

It just doesn't fit the financial setup of these MMOs, even less so in a game that doesn't have a sub and those seem to be going the way of the dodo (and rightly so).

[HaemishM]

The PVE in DAOC was shit regardless of whether someone tried to kill you or not.

This must be repeated. Seriously, the DAoC PVE was so goddamn bad no matter how much danger you added to it. So few mob models, no mob AI other than ATTACK IN STRAIGHT LINE, just absolutely dreadfully boring.

[Threash]

The only decent pvp game out on the market right now is Age of Wushu. 

[Nebu]

The only decent pvp game out on the market right now is Age of Wushu.  

The walkthru videos of the game look amazing but the Rock-Paper-Scissors model gives me concern.  I'll definitely check it out.

[Falconeer]

The only decent pvp game out on the market right now is Age of Wushu. 

As much as I like all my PvP-addict colleagues, this statement is just silly.

[Draegan]

Silly is being nice.

[Fordel]

The PVE in DAOC was shit regardless of whether someone tried to kill you or not.

This must be repeated. Seriously, the DAoC PVE was so goddamn bad no matter how much danger you added to it. So few mob models, no mob AI other than ATTACK IN STRAIGHT LINE, just absolutely dreadfully boring.

Oh that isn't entirely true, plenty of mobs could cast spells. They just used the same interrupt system players did. 

[kildorn]

The PVE in DAOC was shit regardless of whether someone tried to kill you or not.

This must be repeated. Seriously, the DAoC PVE was so goddamn bad no matter how much danger you added to it. So few mob models, no mob AI other than ATTACK IN STRAIGHT LINE, just absolutely dreadfully boring.

Oh that isn't entirely true, plenty of mobs could cast spells. They just used the same interrupt system players did. 

There was the Sidi boss that just ran away constantly and randomly put 100 stone items in your inventory to overburden you!

But yeah, Darkness Falls was fun because of the other players fooling around, and the one bugged mob with no leash range that would randomly flatten the area. It wasn't fun because of the pve.

[Velorath]

I already paid for one flawed follow-up to DAOC with WAR. To be honest, I'd probably do it again for another if not for the fact that there's no way you can fund an MMO with a two million dollar Kickstarter (plus whatever other funding they have). Shame because I loved the setting of DAOC, and it was one of the rare times I really had fun with PVP.

[UnSub]

The Kickstarter is roughly 50% of the way to the target with 24 days to go.

[Nebu]

The Kickstarter is roughly 50% of the way to the target with 24 days to go.

I'm not optimistic it will make it.  It started off with a bang, making it to 800k in a couple of days.  It has been reduced to a trickle since.  MJ better do some bush beating on the marketing campaign or he's going to come up short.

[Falconeer]

As Darniaq said, what MMORPG can be made, and be functional, with 2 million dollars? I think what they are trying to do here is to use Kickstarter to get the word out and then hope at some point to attract some other money during the next 3+ years of development. If they asked for 10M they would have never made the mark but the whole thing would have sounded less fake.

[Nebu]

The money is simply to develop 'proof-of-concept'.  I assume that he wants to create the engine and sell its capabilities to investors for more money.  Also showing investors that he already has preorders in the pipeline can't hurt.

[EWSpider]

As Darniaq said, what MMORPG can be made, and be functional, with 2 million dollars? I think what they are trying to do here is to use Kickstarter to get the word out and then hope at some point to attract some other money during the next 3+ years of development. If they asked for 10M they would have never made the mark but the whole thing would have sounded less fake.

The budget is $5 million (not that that's a whole more compared to the budget of say GW2).  Mark Jacobs started by kicking in $2 million of his own money and he has received another $1 million from investor(s).  The Kickstarter is just another source of funding.  As you say, once they burn through that $5 million if they aren't finished with the game at least they should be at a point where they could attract some more money.

[satael]

How binding are the kickstarter rewards actually? I mean they are selling beta access for certain dates (and even internal testing if you pay enough).

fake edit: nevermind, there's the magical est. attached to the dates so they can duke nukem forever it if they don't get enough actual investors when the kickastarter money runs out

[Hutch]

MJ better do some bush beating on the marketing campaign or he's going to come up short.

Mark Jacobs talks to Forbes

To sum up:
- Kickstarter is awesome. We're taking chances. We're edgy!
- DAoC 2 Camelot Unchained has no PvE. It's all RvR, all the time, baby!
- Did I mention that I invented the term "RvR"?
- We're not going to have time or budget to come up with a traditional MMOG endgame. We're counting on emergent behavior.
- I am such a dinosaur that I think this game, that I've already admitted is niche, will stay afloat with a subscription model.

[Paelos]

Kickstarter is so important to the industry.  Publishers are going under without new ones coming into play.  It’s scary when publishers have all the power.  Kickstarter and crowdfunding are going to be incredible tools for developers as long as we don’t screw it up

I'm just going to go ahead and save that for later, Mr. Jacobs.

[Nebu]

MJ really doesn't have to do much to have a niche success on his hands.  WAR core concepts + less PvE + better balance + 3rd faction + less CC.  I think that would be enough to have a 50-100k subscriber base for at least 6 months. If he's expecting much more than that, he's in a delusional state beyond recovery.

[Malakili]

MJ really doesn't have to do much to have a niche success on his hands.  WAR core concepts + less PvE + better balance + 3rd faction + less CC.  I think that would be enough to have a 50-100k subscriber base for at least 6 months. If he's expecting much more than that, he's in a delusional state beyond recovery.

I've been saying for a while now I hope more developers go for this style low budger, lower expectations niche game.  If nothing else, maybe kickstarter will help to encourage that style of development.

[calapine]

MJ really doesn't have to do much to have a niche success on his hands.  WAR core concepts + less PvE + better balance + 3rd faction + less CC.  I think that would be enough to have a 50-100k subscriber base for at least 6 months. If he's expecting much more than that, he's in a delusional state beyond recovery.

I don't think you could call those numbers a success, not even with the niche qualifier.