What's going right/wrong with launch...

[apocrypha]

You guys know you can flag yourself LFG and also write what you are wanting to do...ETC. Yeah?

And have you tried that to see how successful it is? Because it isn't. Same as all the things WoW tried before the LFD tool weren't successful either.

[Thrawn]

And have you tried that to see how successful it is? Because it isn't. Same as all the things WoW tried before the LFD tool weren't successful either.

This is much more the fault of the players than the game designers though in most cases.

Sucks that they pretty much say they have no current plans for a better system though.

[trias_e]

The fact that I didn't know there is a LFG system already in place is bad.  It needs to be obvious.  Bring the window up when you get a quest for the flashpoint.  Make an obvious button on the UI for it.  People will use it if you smack them in the face with it.

I think a big problem here is that there's so few healers playing finding one is a pain in the ass.  Requiring 1 healer per 4 people vs 1 healer per 5 people just makes it worse.  A WoW-like LFD tool wouldn't help things that much unless you were a healer, you'd still have long queue times.  Only difference is you wouldn't have to be social or active at all in actually getting a group, which I admit is a good thing when it takes forever to get the correct composition lined up.

[Kageru]

That LFG system (checkbox, comment and search) was pretty much the WoW launch system. I'm pretty sure they realised that casuals didn't use it, didn't get groups and didn't stay around. The LFG systems after that were all about the struggle to get the maximum number of people groups when they wanted them.

And SWTOR will face precisely the same pressure and probably end up in the same place.

[Dark_MadMax]

And SWTOR will face precisely the same pressure and probably end up in the same place.

Thankfully by that time I will be done with SWTOR. 

[Zetor]

You guys know you can flag yourself LFG and also write what you are wanting to do...ETC. Yeah?

And have you tried that to see how successful it is? Because it isn't. Same as all the things WoW tried before the LFD tool weren't successful either.

Yep. To this date I have yet to run ANY group instances in lotro (aside from the 2 I ran in a full guild group) since I play on a low-med pop server and the only thing people are LFGing for in the global channel are 2 maxlevel instances that I will probably never hit. (NB: I haven't tried lotro's LFG implementation yet, but I assume it will be a lot better 'cos it can't be any worse :p)

In COH I am lucky enough to play on a high-pop server that has a very active LFG community; that, combined with COH's sidekick system makes finding groups feasible. However, COH also implemented its own dungeon finder, which is even more insanely popular.

In wow and rift I use LFD all the time; they work great, and 95% of my groups complete the dungeons without problems, loot ninjaing, or drama. Vanilla WOW pugs were much worse...

[apocrypha]

This is much more the fault of the players than the game designers though in most cases.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong.

Any time a game dev blames the players for a problem with their game then they are doing game dev wrong, wrong, wrong. And that is the big lesson that Blizzard have finally learned. Players gonna do what players gonna do. Round pegs in square holes just alienates people. You design for the player behavior that you see not the player behaviour you'd like to see.

[Velorath]

I've managed to do every Flashpont so far up until the Foundry, (lv. 37) which I haven't really been able to try yet due to some connection issues.  Had a little bit of trouble getting a group healer for Boarding Party, but aside from that putting together a group hasn't really taken a lot of time.  I think it helps that every FP is accessed from the Fleet which is also home to the AH, vendors, trainers, crew skill trainers, your cargo hold, is a rest area, etc...

[Numtini]

Any time a game dev blames the players for a problem with their game then they are doing game dev wrong, wrong, wrong

I have very mixed feelings about that statement. On one hand, telling players to deal with EQ1 era LFG flagging and non-configurable UI, is bs. However, watching the players in Rift push for everything to be 100% exactly like WoW, I'm not convinced that players should entirely be listened to because at this point if you listen to them: they want WoW because a lot of them have simply never seen anything else.

[Mrbloodworth]

I've managed to do every Flashpont so far up until the Foundry, (lv. 37) which I haven't really been able to try yet due to some connection issues.  Had a little bit of trouble getting a group healer for Boarding Party, but aside from that putting together a group hasn't really taken a lot of time.  I think it helps that every FP is accessed from the Fleet which is also home to the AH, vendors, trainers, crew skill trainers, your cargo hold, is a rest area, etc...

Yep, this in itself is a big deal. I personally think a lot of the UI bugs will be addressed soon, and a good deal of new features will roll out over time in the first few patches. Seems like they were shooting for a stable UI first and foremost.

[Maledict]

Any time a game dev blames the players for a problem with their game then they are doing game dev wrong, wrong, wrong

I have very mixed feelings about that statement. On one hand, telling players to deal with EQ1 era LFG flagging and non-configurable UI, is bs. However, watching the players in Rift push for everything to be 100% exactly like WoW, I'm not convinced that players should entirely be listened to because at this point if you listen to them: they want WoW because a lot of them have simply never seen anything else.

To be fair whilstRift has copied a huge amount of WoW it's also doing a lot of innovative stuff on its own - especially in its patches. The game now is more different to WoW than when it launched, and seems to moving further away from WoW with each patch. Instant adventures, single player chronicles, adding a whole new zone to the game - Trion don't seem afraid to try new things.

[Paelos]

I'm avidly against implementing WoWs LFG system in this game. It would be a complete clusterfuck from the story perspective, the tone of the game, and bring with it the downsides of all the WoW problems that the LFG created.

I have no problem with a flagging system. I have no problem with a suggested matching system. I do have a problem with cross-server bandaids on the fact that there still won't be enough tanks and healers to go around for lazy dps who can't or won't organize a group.

[Numtini]

Global looking for group channel and an interface that shows groups looking for people and people looking for groups with options for specific instances or "any." Something easy to use. And honestly, companies need to get over the merging servers thing so there are people to group with.

Four person groups and boring healing classes is a recipe for disaster on grouping, but BW really doesn't seem concerned about about any of the MMO aspects of the game.

[Malakili]

Sorry if this has been posted already, haven't been keeping up too much with this sub form, but here is an interview with Stephen Reid from Bioware about Launch/Headstart http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCHgrEnkQ14&feature=relmfu (Total Biscuit interviewing)

[Maledict]

Global looking for group channel and an interface that shows groups looking for people and people looking for groups with options for specific instances or "any." Something easy to use. And honestly, companies need to get over the merging servers thing so there are people to group with.

Four person groups and boring healing classes is a recipe for disaster on grouping, but BW really doesn't seem concerned about about any of the MMO aspects of the game.

Dunno about the others, but the Operative / smuggler healing system is actually really interesting and fun to play. It's just a shame that due to incredibly shiity talent design you don't really unlock its potential until level 30 or so - until then it just feels like you are playing half a class.

[Kageru]

I've managed to do every Flashpont so far up until the Foundry, (lv. 37) which I haven't really been able to try yet due to some connection issues.  Had a little bit of trouble getting a group healer for Boarding Party, but aside from that putting together a group hasn't really taken a lot of time.

It's generally pretty easy to do all the instances while the population crest is moving through them. The value of an LFG system is magnified a lot after that time (which is partly why delayed launch is not as much fun).

[Montague]

I'm avidly against implementing WoWs LFG system in this game. It would be a complete clusterfuck from the story perspective, the tone of the game, and bring with it the downsides of all the WoW problems that the LFG created.

I have no problem with a flagging system. I have no problem with a suggested matching system. I do have a problem with cross-server bandaids on the fact that there still won't be enough tanks and healers to go around for lazy dps who can't or won't organize a group.

 

[amiable]

I don't know about other folks, but the four person group limit is a god send to small friends and family guiilds. I t means my 8 person guild has enough folks on line to regularly run content, and maybe even raid content eventually.  Seriously, you want a cross server platform to gather 3 other people?  Join a guild of literally ANY size and you will have zero problems finding a group.

[Tannhauser]

So far the game is well-tuned for levels and quests.  Alderan says it tops out at 32 and I just dinged 32 with the LAST quest there! (Might be bonus missions somewhere)

Did that more than once.  Of course my leveling is slowed down now that I'm really cranking out the crafting and trading on the GTN.

[caladein]

Global looking for group channel and an interface that shows groups looking for people and people looking for groups with options for specific instances or "any." Something easy to use. And honestly, companies need to get over the merging servers thing so there are people to group with.

Four person groups and boring healing classes is a recipe for disaster on grouping, but BW really doesn't seem concerned about about any of the MMO aspects of the game.

Merging low population servers doesn't change that the server population for a contemporary Diku past the first few months is almost all at level cap.  Servers will need to be many times larger to have enough players to run instances between the first one or two and the level cap ones with a mature game's level distribution.

To your point about four person groups, I disagree for the reason above.  I'll frequently get queues as damage on characters queued as healer+damage or tank+damage when running mid-level dungeons in WoW or Rift.  Lowering the group number does mean there need to be more healers and tanks per damage dealers (which is an issue at level cap) but reducing the group size helps everywhere else, both in mid-level flashpoints and in heroic/area quests.

As for boring healers, I've only played Operative but I'm enjoying it in spite of buggy Operations frames.  The mechanics are less complicated than what I'd play with in WoW or Rift, but the execution required as a result of variable energy regen makes it the most fun I've had in years.

[Fabricated]

I'm avidly against implementing WoWs LFG system in this game. It would be a complete clusterfuck from the story perspective, the tone of the game, and bring with it the downsides of all the WoW problems that the LFG created.

I have no problem with a flagging system. I have no problem with a suggested matching system. I do have a problem with cross-server bandaids on the fact that there still won't be enough tanks and healers to go around for lazy dps who can't or won't organize a group.

No LFG won't stop the community from being shit, it'll only stop you from ever running the low-level flashpoints that aren't Esselles ever fucking again when almost everyone has hit cap 3 months from now.

I'll say that again since you seem to be in the denial phase of "MMO players are 99% shitheads" again for some reason: No LFG will absolutely NOT improve the community or prevent it from getting worse.

You're literally making the case for a slightly less retarded version of the retard-rocks from WoW. The only thing easier than spamming LFG is pushing a button and getting a group; it's just that the former usually takes a lot longer than the latter. Nothing inbetween that will work, as evidenced by the LFG flag thing that NO ONE IS USING.

[Ingmar]

The haters on the WoW LFG are forgetting just how fantastic it is for the leveling characters. You can make a decent argument that it is 'bad' at max level - I disagree but at least the argument is coherent. You really cannot make that argument for leveling characters; it is unequivocally a good thing for those characters. It's completely awesome for leveling in WoW and would be here too.

[Sjofn]

Especially after the initial rush of people is past. Leveling dungeons went from "barely done" to "easy to do, if you want, even as dps" with LFD.

[luckton]

The haters on the WoW LFG are forgetting just how fantastic it is for the leveling characters. You can make a decent argument that it is 'bad' at max level - I disagree but at least the argument is coherent. You really cannot make that argument for leveling characters; it is unequivocally a good thing for those characters. It's completely awesome for leveling in WoW and would be here too.

This.  While LFD does give the lazy a somewhat 'free ride' at max level, it does make an enjoyable leveling process.

But I think we all agree that something is needed that's better than what we have right now.  As it stands, I feel like I stepped back into the days of command-line driven UIs like EQ and DAoC 

[Koyasha]

I don't know about other folks, but the four person group limit is a god send to small friends and family guiilds. I t means my 8 person guild has enough folks on line to regularly run content, and maybe even raid content eventually.  Seriously, you want a cross server platform to gather 3 other people?  Join a guild of literally ANY size and you will have zero problems finding a group.

Technically you really only need one other person, since so far I haven't had any issues doing anything with 2 players + 2 companions, even on 4-person missions.  And with companions able to do a variety of jobs, you don't need any specific role filled, generally - you can choose companions to fill those roles.  May not be viable in whatever passes for raids, but all the flashpoints I've done it's perfectly workable.  Anyone that's complaining they can't find one other person to play with...well, I'm not sure what I can say about someone like that.  Really, just outlevel them and come back later, you're obviously playing this like a single-player game if you can't find just one person to group with.

The haters on the WoW LFG are forgetting just how fantastic it is for the leveling characters. You can make a decent argument that it is 'bad' at max level - I disagree but at least the argument is coherent. You really cannot make that argument for leveling characters; it is unequivocally a good thing for those characters. It's completely awesome for leveling in WoW and would be here too.

Considering that leveling characters isn't really the point here, and you'll get there just by doing all your quests anyway, this function of an LFD system is completely pointless.  The 'point' in WoW is to get to max level so you can get to the 'real' game.  The 'point' in SWTOR is to play the story, so leveling characters don't actually gain any benefit from flashpoint leveling.  Sure, you can level that way, just like you could theoretically level by doing nothing but space missions, but the game isn't and shouldn't be designed specifically to support (and especially not encourage) that playstyle.

[sam, an eggplant]

TOR is a dikuclone. It's not a special snowflake. It just has a somewhat better leveling experience than the alternatives. if you think the point won't be to get to max level "where the real game starts" after the release rush ends, you're simply not paying attention. Otherwise, customers will level up a couple alts and then quit the game.

Mouth-breathers pushing back on LFD sound like the forum-dwelling mongoloids arguing against mods because recount exposed their brain damage. These tools are popular because they're good. Players like them. Players rely on them. They make the game better. Any alternative to LFD must actually be superior to LFD and accepted by players as such.

Flagging for LFG, LFG channels, meeting stones, etc, are not improvements. They are all proven failures.

Is it possible to improve on WoW's grouping system? Of course! Off the top of my head... you could work up some sort of persistent "player reputation" feature to reward good players by getting them in groups more quickly, or to reward more loot. You could build content for groups of 2 DPS, or multiple tanks, or tailored to specific classes. You could create solo instances that expand into group instances and then finally into raids. Any empty slots could be filled by companions and/or NPCs, allowing even solo non-guilded players to see content otherwise unavailable. You could allow players to queue specifically for multiple pieces of content, rather than restricting them to one or random, and give the same rewards.

The game should be built to "support" whatever playstyles customers enjoy. If players love PvP, they should be able to level via warzones. Same with space combat. If these activities aren't rewarding (and rewarding is defined by being just as legitimate, valid, and fast as other alternatives) people won't do them, even if they enjoy them, and you just wasted all that time developing a feature that will never be used. This fact is probably surprising to the numbnuts on the TOR forums, but it's isn't exactly a secret amongst the MMO cognoscenti, so to speak, and the fact that a poster on f13 doesn't know it is a bit disheartening.

[Reg]

So people aren't allowed to dislike the WoW style LFG tool?  Good to know!  God knows, I'd hate to find myself out of step with public opinion.

[sam, an eggplant]

When you can describe a superior alternative that players will accept, you'll have a supportable position.

The judges are generous today, and will accept an alternative that passes the initial smell test and hasn't already been tried and proven a failure. Can you think of one?

Also, I just thought of another improvement-- when you step into an instanced area in TOR, treat that as queuing for that specific content, and match up with other players in your server cluster. No more "/1 LFG for bantha's trousers and spice spice baby PST". Wouldn't that be nifty?

[Velorath]

I've managed to do every Flashpont so far up until the Foundry, (lv. 37) which I haven't really been able to try yet due to some connection issues.  Had a little bit of trouble getting a group healer for Boarding Party, but aside from that putting together a group hasn't really taken a lot of time.

It's generally pretty easy to do all the instances while the population crest is moving through them. The value of an LFG system is magnified a lot after that time (which is partly why delayed launch is not as much fun).

You only need to find three other people.  Hell, I did Boarding Party (quest is lv. 33) as a lv. 36, with another 36 and a 35, and we got all the way to the last boss encounter with a companion as our only healer.  Besides that, gear is easy enough to get through commendations, crafting, or quest rewards, that you don't need to hit all the Flashpoints as you're leveling, and if you miss one and want to do it for the story, you can always do the hard mode version when you get to lv. 50.

[amiable]

Mouth-breathers pushing back on LFD sound like the forum-dwelling mongoloids arguing against mods because recount exposed their brain damage. These tools are popular because they're good. Players like them. Players rely on them. They make the game better. Any alternative to LFD must actually be superior to LFD and accepted by players as such.

Those tools are popular because a certain hardcore segment of the population likes to use them to play a certain way and beat the rest of the population upside the head with the data.  LOTRO has neither an advanced LFG mechanism, damage parser or extensively modifiable UI and it is a terrific game.  The fact that folks prefer this model to WoW does not mean they are "forum-dwelling mongoloids": they just have a different opinion than you.

Honestly your post illustrates precisely what is wrong with WoW and why casual and friends and family groups are fleeing that game in droves.  

[eldaec]

The haters on the WoW LFG are forgetting just how fantastic it is for the leveling characters. You can make a decent argument that it is 'bad' at max level - I disagree but at least the argument is coherent. You really cannot make that argument for leveling characters; it is unequivocally a good thing for those characters. It's completely awesome for leveling in WoW and would be here too.

While I agree. Sidekicking would be even better.

Flashpoints in SWTOR currently have a window of just a few hours in the levelling process where you can conceivably play them.

I'm all for cross server matchmaking, but sidekicking so I can play them with the people I actually want to play them with either before or after the tiny level-appropriate window, seems like a much higher priority.

Basically EA need to finish the god damn game before the shiny wears off.

[Koyasha]

The game should be built to "support" whatever playstyles customers enjoy. If players love PvP, they should be able to level via warzones. Same with space combat. If these activities aren't rewarding (and rewarding is defined by being just as legitimate, valid, and fast as other alternatives) people won't do them, even if they enjoy them, and you just wasted all that time developing a feature that will never be used. This fact is probably surprising to the numbnuts on the TOR forums, but it's isn't exactly a secret amongst the MMO cognoscenti, so to speak, and the fact that a poster on f13 doesn't know it is a bit disheartening.

No, it shouldn't be built to support whatever playstyles customers enjoy.  It should be built with a specific idea and concept in mind, or else it tries to do everything and therefore does nothing well. 

It's true that you shouldn't waste time developing features that won't be used, though.  That doesn't mean you should develop a whole bunch of features and ensure they're used - it means you should be selective about what features you put into the game in the first place, so you don't waste time developing a feature that doesn't fit with the concept and idea of the game.  SWTOR's concept is clear: Standard BioWare RPG with lots of players.  And to stick to that concept, no LFD system is needed.

Now, on the topic of sidekicking - I'm not sure if that would be ideal, but certainly mentoring down would be entirely beneficial.  Sidekicking up might present potential issues of seeing content 'out of sequence' where a low level character does something before doing those things leading up to it, but I'm not sure on that since I haven't seen everything yet.  Maybe that wouldn't be an issue, or there's a way around the problem.  Regardless, mentoring down would definitely be something good to implement.

Also, on the general topic of things going right and wrong with launch, I have been experiencing a major annoyance: UI problems.  Even setting aside the lack of basic functionality that all games should have (specifically, being able to move around UI elements to arrange them how you want) the chat window seems to have some major bugs with additional tabs.  And there's the problem with 'show sith corruption' not sticking, therefore needing to be manually reset every time I zone.  Hopefully they can get these UI problems solved soon, as they're some of the most generally annoying issues thus far.

[apocrypha]

Large budget, triple A games aren't lofty concepts and developer dreams. They're business projects with a high investment requirement and big risk factor with potential long-term high rates of return.

SWTOR has one goal: sell enough boxes and retain enough customers to realise a rate of return acceptable to its investors.

Looking at WoW's LFD tool and the extent of its usage shows that a very large proportion of MMO subscribers both want and use it. If SWTOR persists without such a tool then they will either have to make FPs irrelevant to most players or they will have to develop a suitable LFD tool. The current system is unsustainable past the first couple of months.

[amiable]

Large budget, triple A games aren't lofty concepts and developer dreams. They're business projects with a high investment requirement and big risk factor with potential long-term high rates of return.

SWTOR has one goal: sell enough boxes and retain enough customers to realise a rate of return acceptable to its investors.

Looking at WoW's LFD tool and the extent of its usage shows that a very large proportion of MMO subscribers both want and use it. If SWTOR persists without such a tool then they will either have to make FPs irrelevant to most players or they will have to develop a suitable LFD tool. The current system is unsustainable past the first couple of months.

I don't think the "if WoW had it, then SWTOR NEEDS TO ALSO HAVE IT!!!!!" mentality really applies to this games.  Folks are flat out tired of WoW and looking for another triple A title.  In terms of WoW a cross-server LFG tool was essential because you needed 5 people to run any end game content, the design of this game is a lot different.  You only require a single other person in order to run flashpoints (at least pre-50).  Lets see how this plays out, but I imagine the only use of LFG will basically be for the 8+ raid dungeons, which are mostly going to be run at the guild level anyway.

[Murgos]

Why the fuck did we just have this discussion again?  They've said repeatedly now that a LFD tool is coming eventually.

Jesus fuck people.