S#5 - Game Day #3

[eldaec]

SPP earnt up to the abandonment are kept, then the 'winner' gets awarded however many TDs they need to win by 2 TDs (scoring 3spp for each on a random player) and as Ingmar mentions winner gets both MVPs and both sets of winnings.

[eldaec]

When you abandon you are also supposed to roll a d6 for each level 5+ player, and if you fail to roll 4+, the player leaves the team.

AFAIK cyanide have not implemented that rule.

[Ingmar]

I JUST WANT BIG HAND DAMNIT!

[Teleku]

Yesh, thats a lot.  Well, Merry Christmas early I guess then!   

[Strazos]

Eldaec, I'd look at dropping that lvl 4 Lineman and your Fouler - the lvl 4 is just a bit bloated for what he brings to the table, and the fouler...do you really find yourself fouling that much?

Also, rerolls - I personally run with three, but I think I own up to 5 or so. I've also only been running with 11 players. I had 12, but one died or something, and I haven't wanted to risk giving up more inducements to replace him for awhile now.

EDIT: Also, my new lvl 5 runner did not receive a special skill-up or stat increase, which makes me sad.

[lamaros]

In regards to the Horde, I play Norse a bit different. You need to be efficient on TV because if you can get a wizard and a bribe you can cause some damage while still having a player advantage. That means getting rid of the big stuff unless it wins you games.

You have three dauntless players, two WWs and a Yhetee. This is too much TV spent on guys who can do a similar job. You need to be able to take down big players, but WWs and Yhetee can do this, so why so much dauntless? Especially with the runners. If you play to bash then Yhetee might stay but ditch the runners. If you play to run, with some hits, then ditch the Yhetee. Two runners plus Yhetee is 460TV. Too much tied up for what you get fromt hem.

As people have said, Truckle is expensive. But he dauntless tackles for 110k, which is what Voltan does for 130k, making it fend v dodge. Bravd is 150k worth of... dying a little slower? Dodge and Side Step are handy for sure, and I love it on my Gutter Runners, but if you're playing a bshy norse team it makes no sense to have so much TV locked up in a guy who is only really a ball carrier and half assed marker. To compare:

My GR is 160k and has Block/Dodge/SS/Shadowing/Tackle. And 9 MV and 4 AGI in a running side.
Your runner is 150k and is Block/Dodge/SS/Diving Tackle/Dauntless. And 7 mv and 3 AGI in a bash/run side.

I just can't see the value in runners in this comparison. Doesn't threaten as much on offence or defence, and doesn't suit the playing style of the team as well.

I would drop Old Vincent, probably Eric too. Niggling injury is actually really shit and can cause you a bit of trouble. Especially with an AV 7 side. As I said I dislike runners, so I would ditch Bravd and Voltan. They are over-priced and you have throwers and linemen. Better off with a dauntless lino and a thrower carrier than a runner that does both expensively. If you feel you really need a ball carrier (I don't think Norse do) keep Bravd, but I think both are over-priced and not worth it. If you do keep them then ditch Truckle. I would also drop one reroll. Three is enough, plus you can get leader later on a second thrower if you really want it.

Out:

Bravd - 150k
Voltan - 130k
Eric - 70k
Vincent - 70k
Reroll - 60k

Total: 480k

In:

3x Lineman - 150k
1x Thrower - 70k

Total: 220k.

Even with all these changes you can probably ditch the Yhetee as well. I think you have enough bashing power for this league already. That would free you up another 130k if you swapped him for a lineo.

Total TV loss would then be 390k. You lose Yhetee, two runners, a kick player and a dirty player. 390k of skills on those four players will take you better places than the guys you lost, and you will ditch the niggling stuff.

No kick will suck a little, but I don't think it's the end of the world for norse. Dirty player is also a loss you can manage for the time being.

[Comstar]

Dump the 110K Lineman and one or both of the berzerker's IMHO, and maybe another linemen who has Fend.

In other news, I now have two ST 4 Blodging Blitzers, the new one already had +1MV, which makes up for the other one being -1MV. I fear I need it vs a team of Blocking Sauras, 1/2 of whom have Guard too.

[Ingmar]

Norse runners are *extremely* useful/valuable players, IMO. I would be very hesitant to listen to any advice that involves ditching them. They're fast, they have dauntless, they have your only native agility access. Throwers by comparison are rather terrible.

[Strazos]

and one or both of the berzerker's IMHO

I'd highly suggest against this, as beserkers and werewolves are the core of your team, unless you don't mind not hitting as hard.

I don't really agree with Lamaros' assessment either, though that may just be style. Personally, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of my runners.

I would dump:

Eric
Mad Hamish
Truckle the Uncivil
Voltan
Reroll

I know I said I like runners, BUT, you managed to build a really nice Thrower so that complicates thing. The rest I think don't add to much when you account for their cost.

[Ingmar]

You could also just roll with the high TV and trust your superior skill to carry you through against inducements, that is my plan!

I think everyone seems to agree you should recycle the level 4 lineman and maybe the fouler and kicker; you could also recycle your -agi berserker as it is hurting his jump up and dodge rolls both. Really the only lineman you really need to keep is the one with guard.

I've also only been running with 11 players.

An AV 7 team with only 11 players is very, very risky.

[lamaros]

Norse runners are *extremely* useful/valuable players, IMO. I would be very hesitant to listen to any advice that involves ditching them. They're fast, they have dauntless, they have your only native agility access. Throwers by comparison are rather terrible.

Expanded my views above.

Runners are nice players, but I don't think they suit the Norse team. For what they are needed to do they are way too expensive. Dauntless bloats them. You can build a better tackler from a lineman much cheaper, while any ball carrier is stuck with dauntless bloat and doesn't get as much from them as you need.

I have always played my Nose teams like this though:

2x Thrower (+20k for a lineman with pass and access is value. Passing is still decent on a 3 agi team, plus you can just get leader on one and then you've got yourself another re-roll and saved 10k from lino+hard reroll)
2x Berserkers (MB, Guard, Piling on, etc)
2x Wolves (Block, Guard, MB)
7-8x Lino (guard where possible, otherwise tackle, with a dirty player. Unless they get decent rolls or you are building a duantless tackler or something start recycling them after two skills. 50k with block is insane value. 90k with block, tackle, fend is nowhere near as great.)

[Ingmar]

You pay as much for dauntless on a runner as you do for pass on a thrower, and dauntless will be useful more often (especially because you're often operating at a guard disadvantage against teams with str 4+ pieces). The price premium on runners is the extra point of movement, which is really really useful.

And again, it is your only native source of blodgers, which is invaluable when you have AV 7.

EDIT:  Your comparison to a GR is sort of goofy since it leaves out that the GR is only str 2.

[lamaros]

You pay as much for dauntless on a runner as you do for pass on a thrower, and dauntless will be useful more often (especially because you're often operating at a guard disadvantage against teams with str 4+ pieces). The price premium on runners is the extra point of movement, which is really really useful.

Except he has 5 players with guard access and three 4+ str players himself. If he ditches the Yhetee then dauntless makes more sense, but three dauntless players with a Yhetee is waste to me.

I also think movement is overrated. It's a matter if what you can do as a team in the term. Unless you can run from really deep (like a GR) that extra movement means little, as you need a screen and are restricted by the speed of that screen/cage. 6 v 7 is not huge, and with GFIs accounted 8 v 9 is even less significant. I might run a GR deep as 9 MV can outpace many sides in the league because not many have 7+ MV players. But 7 MV can't do this as well, even dwarves can run 6 places. Unless you can run deep enough to not get caught, or run enough players deep to provide a screen, that extra one movement isn't much use.

[lamaros]

You pay as much for dauntless on a runner as you do for pass on a thrower, and dauntless will be useful more often (especially because you're often operating at a guard disadvantage against teams with str 4+ pieces). The price premium on runners is the extra point of movement, which is really really useful.

And again, it is your only native source of blodgers, which is invaluable when you have AV 7.

EDIT:  Your comparison to a GR is sort of goofy since it leaves out that the GR is only str 2.

For the purposes of running the ball it makes little difference. You're either caged, or you're running free. If you're running free then 2 or 3 STR is not a big difference, as an assist is usually available anyhow. The big difference is if you can get free of their range through your movement, or if you can get other players in to add a screen. Skaven can do this best because they have FOUR 9MV 4AGI dodge players, so they can run one with the ball and three others to screen. Then with every other player on 7MV helping out. Norse can't compare, to that as they can't dodge anywhere near as much support in.

Elves are next best, as they can also dodge many players, and have some with 8MV and so forth.

Norse can't really play the same type of running game as they don't have the movement and agility across the team. They need to protect their carrier much more, so the extra movement isn't as significant.

[Strazos]

An AV 7 team with only 11 players is very, very risky.

Yeah. I've been thinking of whether it's worth giving up even more inducements to get that 12th lineman. Especially against my next Goblin opponent - while I'm confidant I can get goblins off the field, I'm scared of what a bombardier, ball & chain, or chainsaw could do.  

[Ingmar]

All 5 of those guard players have frenzy, which makes it sometimes a bit hard to predict where they'll land, which makes setting up clean guard lines kind of an adventure at times, unless you just don't want to hit with your frenzy dudes, and I would posit that a Norse team that isn't punching with those players is doing something very, very wrong.

And even so, 5 players with guard access is significantly fewer than most other bashy teams. Dwarves have access on 9+, orcs on 9, chaos on the entire team, nurgle on 9, lizards on 7, even khemri and ogres have it on 6. And many of those teams have more str 4+ players than the norse as well.

The speed 7 is mostly a defensive advantage, not an offensive one. I play a lot of slow teams, having an extra bit of speed on defense is absolutely huge.

Really the runners are excellent defensive players, maybe the best Norse have access to in a lot of ways.

[lamaros]

All 5 of those guard players have frenzy, which makes it sometimes a bit hard to predict where they'll land, which makes setting up clean guard lines kind of an adventure at times, unless you just don't want to hit with your frenzy dudes, and I would posit that a Norse team that isn't punching with those players is doing something very, very wrong.

And even so, 5 players with guard access is significantly fewer than most other bashy teams. Dwarves have access on 9+, orcs on 9, chaos on the entire team, nurgle on 9, lizards on 7, even khemri and ogres have it on 6. And many of those teams have more str 4+ players than the norse as well.

The speed 7 is mostly a defensive advantage, not an offensive one. I play a lot of slow teams, having an extra bit of speed on defense is absolutely huge.

Really the runners are excellent defensive players, maybe the best Norse have access to in a lot of ways.

I guess this will have to be a difference of playstyle. I play the Norse as cheap and one-dimensionally as possible. I would play humans if I wanted to play the type of game the runner player suggests to me.

Strazos' side is much more like I would play norse, though I would still drop the runners and Eilif for linos and a thrower, out to 12 players. That would make his TV 1620, which would be pretty darn low for such a hard hitting team. (Getting inducements for a wizard, bribe and babes against many of the other old teams, and not giving up too much against the young ones that he would dismantle).

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Norse runners are *extremely* useful/valuable players, IMO. I would be very hesitant to listen to any advice that involves ditching them. They're fast, they have dauntless, they have your only native agility access. Throwers by comparison are rather terrible.

Or any advice that hinges on comparing a player to a Gutter Runner, which is strongly in the running for the best player in the game.

That said, most of what Lamaros said was on point. Unskilled Norse linemen are fantastic value for money, and I would suggest always having 2 or 3 to stick on the LoS.

Of course, you should probably wait one more game before you enact any sweeping changes!

[Llyse]

Recycle anyone with niggling.
Drop to 3 rerolls
Drop the dirty lineman
Drop the level 4 lineman if you have cash

Consider keeping old mangled Vincent since kick is awesome

[Ice Cream Emperor]

I guess this will have to be a difference of playstyle. I play the Norse as cheap and one-dimensionally as possible in matchmaking.

Fixed it for you?

Taking a two throwers over a runner on a Norse team is just straight-up misguided. If you keep acting like the Runner is primarily an offensive player, and comparing him to GRs of all things, of course he is going to look crappy. Why not compare him to other players that are actually available to the Norse team? He's the best ball carrier by a significant margin -- agility access pretty much guarantees that -- and he's also one of the best clutch defensive pieces available to the team. A Norse team without at least one Runner is not sensible.

And yes, Strazos, you should have 13 players. I mean, look at our first game. All I had to do was win the toss and get a few above-average rolls and you were in serious trouble -- and that was against elves! On an AV7 team with no plan B going down to 8 or 9 men early is only going to snowball horrifically, and you have the best-value unskilled linesmen in the game. Two players for 100 TV is like two free apothecaries that always roll badly hurt, from the point of view of winning games.


And while I'm holding forth: there's really only two teams in the game that don't want to have 13 players the moment they can afford them (Orcs and Dwarves, natch), and even then it's usually going to be a good idea. The key to managing TV is not having less players, it's making sure your subs are as cheap as reasonably possible.

[Ingmar]

I would probably only have 12 players if I didn't need the extra one as deathroller insurance, but as you say, dwarves are the exception.

[Strazos]

13 players would unfortunately make me dangerously bloated, in my opinion, though something I'll still look at. However, I am acutely aware of my lack of a bench at the moment, but the way I see it if running with a short bench is the difference between giving up a wizard and a few other assorted things, and seeing crap like Morg n Thorg constantly but having 2 linemen on the bench...I might just choose the former.

Also I'd posit that, seeing as my team is made to maim people and I only inflicted a single casualty on my last opponent (with 19 armor breaks), you getting those two early CAS with elves was a bit more than "above average."

[Llyse]

I'd still consider playing with 13 players.

If you feel bloated cut down to two rerolls, and get leader for the third?

Also you have a surehands player right? (My Necro team don't even have that and they're at 1940 TV  )

[lamaros]

Taking a two throwers over a runner on a Norse team is just straight-up misguided. If you keep acting like the Runner is primarily an offensive player, and comparing him to GRs of all things, of course he is going to look crappy. Why not compare him to other players that are actually available to the Norse team? He's the best ball carrier by a significant margin -- agility access pretty much guarantees that -- and he's also one of the best clutch defensive pieces available to the team. A Norse team without at least one Runner is not sensible.

Not at all. I think he is worse defensively to the GR too ;P.

I am not comparing Thrower to Runners. I am comparing throwers to linesmen. Pass is seriously underrated, as is leader.

I was comparing the runner to the GR in regards to how he compliments their respective teams. The GR is a needed player for the Skaven playstyle. The runner is somewhat incidental to the way Norse win matches in my view. Happy to disagree.

[Strazos]

Negative, there's never really been room for it.

With the amount of blocks I have to throw, and the possibility of chefs, I'd think that going to 2rr would be very risky. I use to have a thrower to basically act as a lineman with a reroll, but he eventually got himself gimped and killed.

Frankly, I'm not even sure how I got down to 11, as I had a good number of players in the past.

[Strazos]

The runner is somewhat incidental to the way Norse win matches in my view. Happy to disagree.

At least in my experience, dodge and sidestep have proven to be far too valuable to pass up. Dodge is great for holding onto the ball and moving around, and sidestep opens up the option of sideline cages. Dauntless is a bit more situational, but I've never regretted having it.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

I was comparing the runner to the GR in regards to how he compliments their respective teams. The GR is a needed player for the Skaven playstyle. The runner is somewhat incidental to the way Norse win matches in my view. Happy to disagree.

I am happy to disagree too, but this statement -- after talking about how valuable Pass is on the Norse -- is kind of beyond the pale. Pass is more useful than Blodge on a ball carrier and potential clutch blitzer? If the Runner is incidental then the Thrower is muzak from one elevator over.

[Llyse]

Yep, passing with Agi 3 is an option but not a necessity especially for Norse.

Leader is why you have 1 thrower, some Norse coaches don't even have one

[Ice Cream Emperor]

but the way I see it if running with a short bench is the difference between giving up a wizard and a few other assorted things, and seeing crap like Morg n Thorg constantly but having 2 linemen on the bench...I might just choose the former.

Morg costs like what, 500k? That's an entire team of linesmen. Like literally ten of them. It's not two extra linesmen that are giving your opponents all those inducements, it's your actual team -- and you need them to win the game either way.

Anyways, the case has certainly been made, so I won't belabor it further. But I reiterate that our first game wasn't that far above average. (It was that in combination with my own players avoiding injury that pushed it towards exceptional.) If you need more evidence of its common-ness, consider how the replay went: the same but in reverse, and snowballing in much the same way.

[lamaros]

I was comparing the runner to the GR in regards to how he compliments their respective teams. The GR is a needed player for the Skaven playstyle. The runner is somewhat incidental to the way Norse win matches in my view. Happy to disagree.

I am happy to disagree too, but this statement -- after talking about how valuable Pass is on the Norse -- is kind of beyond the pale. Pass is more useful than Blodge on a ball carrier and potential clutch blitzer? If the Runner is incidental then the Thrower is muzak from one elevator over.

I said pass was under-rated and that leader was useful, as compared to a team that just had linesman. Not exactly blowing the thrower up as MVP. Thrower + Thrower (w/ Leader) = 160k. Lineman + Lineman + reroll = 160k. That's two players with pass for free!

You should really get a bench though Stras. 100k for two lineman will not ruin you in inducements. Hell, ditch your over-priced +AV guy and get two for him. Instant bench at no cost.

[Llyse]

Why are we helping the enemy? 

[Ingmar]

This might be the dwarf talking, but I'd rather my opponents all take Morg rather than wizards.

[Sjofn]

The Norse aren't a passing team? 

I love my runners. They are easily my favorite piece on the Norse.

[Strazos]

You should really get a bench though Stras. 100k for two lineman will not ruin you in inducements. Hell, ditch your over-priced +AV guy and get two for him. Instant bench at no cost.

Oh, I know I should have a bench - I'll probably be buying players after my next match anyway. I think I'm still traumatized from last season, where I had a bunch of games facing crazy inducement stuff (such as MnT, at least twice).

Also, it's not an instant bench at no cost - I'm be sacrificing a bit of survivability on the line and tackle.

[lamaros]

Armor? Pfft! Back your men in to never get knocked down!