Mass Effect 3

[Margalis]

I'm just busting your balls, I barely even know what we're talking about. 

[lamaros]

It wasn't my decision to make, but the (non-)logic of the Council makes sense from my cynical worldview. The political leadership persuaded themselves that the problem had gone away, so they could return to the much more pressing issues of the next election and dealing with those arrogant humans.

"Mission Accomplished!"

No it doesn't. It's poor ret-conning. Especially as they all go "oh Shepard! You saved us from the Reapers!" at the end of ME1.

[UnSub]

That doesn't excuse the council of course, since they are still pulling fucking chunks of the reaper out of the damn station there still.

"Ah yes, the 'Reaper.' You've been reading too many Von Danikenite tracts, Shepard. Think for a moment - is it more likely that Sovereign was an artifact of an ancient, quasi-mythical race of sapient starships... or that it was an unusually large geth dreadnought?"

Shepherd: "As the person who has done the investigation, collected the evidence and can now understand the dead language of the Proteans, I'm going with 'sapient star ship, who has friends that decimated all sentient life in the galaxy last time they were here'. Come with me to Ilos where I will show you how it all went down."

I recognise the narrative purpose / vanity of not having Shepherd believed by the Council, but equally the Council could have said, "We believe you and are working out a plan of approach, but not one that we can tell you about right now" instead of "LALALALA NO SUCH THING AS REAPERS LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU WITH OUR FINGERS IN OUR EARS" that they currently get.

Plus if they think Shepherd is dangerously deluded - and "we're all gonna die when a super-race of machines invade our galaxy from beyond space as we know it" probably qualifies - they probably shouldn't let him be a Spectre any more. But they do, so it raises some interesting questions about their intelligence.

[Ingmar]

I believe it is stated in ME2 that people went to investigate Ilos and the VI was not there (lost power, wore out, whatever) and so Shepherd is the only one who ever talked to it.

[lamaros]

That doesn't excuse the council of course, since they are still pulling fucking chunks of the reaper out of the damn station there still.

"Ah yes, the 'Reaper.' You've been reading too many Von Danikenite tracts, Shepard. Think for a moment - is it more likely that Sovereign was an artifact of an ancient, quasi-mythical race of sapient starships... or that it was an unusually large geth dreadnought?"

Shepherd: "As the person who has done the investigation, collected the evidence and can now understand the dead language of the Proteans, I'm going with 'sapient star ship, who has friends that decimated all sentient life in the galaxy last time they were here'. Come with me to Ilos where I will show you how it all went down."

I recognise the narrative purpose / vanity of not having Shepherd believed by the Council, but equally the Council could have said, "We believe you and are working out a plan of approach, but not one that we can tell you about right now" instead of "LALALALA NO SUCH THING AS REAPERS LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU WITH OUR FINGERS IN OUR EARS" that they currently get.

Plus if they think Shepherd is dangerously deluded - and "we're all gonna die when a super-race of machines invade our galaxy from beyond space as we know it" probably qualifies - they probably shouldn't let him be a Spectre any more. But they do, so it raises some interesting questions about their intelligence.

They just want to fit in with the Quarians and the Geth... and the Krogan and... It's the 'sentient species that are all stupid' universe.

[UnSub]

... and two of his crew, one of who might have specialised in Protean archaeology.

Again, I recognise the narrative vanity, but think it could be better handled. It doesn't help (for me) making the universe more believable by making the Council look incompetently stupid, nor am I fully comfortable with ME's very clear portrayal of "all politicians are bad people".

[Ingmar]

Wasn't Shepherd the only one who could actually understand it due to the beacon thing?

[PalmTrees]

They just want to fit in with the Quarians and the Geth... and the Krogan and... It's the 'sentient species that are all stupid' universe.

This is why the reapers have to kill everyone and let evolution take another stab at making a sentient species that doesn't have its head up its ass.

[Lantyssa]

Wasn't Shepherd the only one who could actually understand it due to the beacon thing?

Liara with the mind-meld.  Though she got a little obsessed after Shepherd's first death.

[luckton]

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/62906/Garrus-Will-Calibrate-Your-Voicemail-For-A-Price

I'll just leave that here.

[tmp]

I believe it is stated in ME2 that people went to investigate Ilos and the VI was not there (lost power, wore out, whatever) and so Shepherd is the only one who ever talked to it.

Of course, then in one of the ME2 side-quests you find fully working, intact Prothean artifact/beacon thingie, and rather than being given an option to bring it as the proof --sorry, "proof"-- it is placed on your coffee table so it can cutely shrink and expand when you touch it.

No facepalm big enough.

[eldaec]

Bioware games become a lot more interesting once you come to accept that the Department of Main Plots is staffed by idiots and the actual talent is all working in Sideplot Division.

It also helps to reconcile yourself to the fact that bioware feel 'continuity' is just superstitious nonsense.

[HaemishM]

And remember all the heightened security you deal with on the Citadel.

You know, one area of ME2 that disappointed me was the level design of the Citadel. It felt TINY. Yes, there was less walking and more directed experience on the Citadel, but it felt smaller than the prison Jack was held in. That's one thing the whole game's level design missed - most of the places didn't have anywhere near the sense of sweeping grandeur that the levels in the first one did. I realize that wasn't your fault, but your comment reminded me of it.

[Stormwaltz]

Shepherd: "As the person who has done the investigation, collected the evidence and can now understand the dead language of the Proteans, I'm going with 'sapient star ship, who has friends that decimated all sentient life in the galaxy last time they were here'. Come with me to Ilos where I will show you how it all went down."

Vigil is deactivated. Even if it was still around, Shepard is the only one who could understand it - through some peculiar pseudo-scientific means that even an asari with intimate knowledge of Prothean tech couldn't grok. Only people personally loyal to Shepard were present when he spoke to Sovereign - their objectivity is suspect. There are digital records from their hardsuits, but as someone pointed out, it's generally assumed that anyone with enough resources and skill can create a flawless "Photoshop" (this has massive repercussions on the justice system that I don't think are ever explored). And it's implied, at least in the planet descriptions I had time to do before I left, that while there are plenty of Reaper-devastated worlds around the galaxy, they are not recognized as any sort of systemic, galaxy-wide phenomenon. In some cases, "indistinguishable from magic" applies, and the xenoarcheologists assume they're looking at the effects of natural processes.

In short, there's no evidence that Sovereign was anything more than a particularly impressive geth ship. The more Shepard insists that it's really a super-advanced and implacably hostile super-intelligence, the more he looks like the sort of kook that insists there are UFOs in the Bible and aliens built the pyramids.

Plus if they think Shepherd is dangerously deluded - and "we're all gonna die when a super-race of machines invade our galaxy from beyond space as we know it" probably qualifies - they probably shouldn't let him be a Spectre any more.

I completely agree.

[tmp]

Only people personally loyal to Shepard were present when he spoke to Sovereign - their objectivity is suspect. There are digital records from their hardsuits, but as someone pointed out, it's generally assumed that anyone with enough resources and skill can create a flawless "Photoshop" (this has massive repercussions on the justice system that I don't think are ever explored).

If you don't trust a person to deliver facts rather than photoshopped evidence, why would you grant them Spectre status?

In short, there's no evidence that Sovereign was anything more than a particularly impressive geth ship.

For all intent and purposes, what difference does it make? I mean, if it's believed that the geth can build such advanced starships *and* given the stated in the game more than once common belief/fear that the AIs are bound to try to eliminate the organics, shouldn't there be focused effort to prepare for further attacks of such advanced AI-driven starship(s) since their believed makers have proven themselves to be actively aggressive? Effectively boiling down to the same preparations that would need to be done against the "real" Reapers?

It's like after the Pearl Harbor bombing the US government went "welp, that sucked but we shot down their planes. Now, back to business as usual."

[cironian]

It's like after the Pearl Harbor bombing the US government went "welp, that sucked but we shot down their planes. Now, back to business as usual."

They also carefully swept a 100 mile radius around Hawaii, defeating any enemies in there. That should do the trick against an enemy that you well know is based some distance off. (From what's said in ME2 it seemed to me that the big anti-geth operation in-between the games never even bothered to go past the Perseus Veil)

[Velorath]

Only people personally loyal to Shepard were present when he spoke to Sovereign - their objectivity is suspect. There are digital records from their hardsuits, but as someone pointed out, it's generally assumed that anyone with enough resources and skill can create a flawless "Photoshop" (this has massive repercussions on the justice system that I don't think are ever explored).

If you don't trust a person to deliver facts rather than photoshopped evidence, why would you grant them Spectre status?

In short, there's no evidence that Sovereign was anything more than a particularly impressive geth ship.

For all intent and purposes, what difference does it make? I mean, if it's believed that the geth can build such advanced starships *and* given the stated in the game more than once common belief/fear that the AIs are bound to try to eliminate the organics, shouldn't there be focused effort to prepare for further attacks of such advanced AI-driven starship(s) since their believed makers have proven themselves to be actively aggressive? Effectively boiling down to the same preparations that would need to be done against the "real" Reapers?

It's like after the Pearl Harbor bombing the US government went "welp, that sucked but we shot down their planes. Now, back to business as usual."

I don't think the council didn't trust Shepard and thought he would make up evidence.  They thought that the evidence Shepard found was just an elaborate hoax by Saren, which was done to manipulate the Geth into following him.  With Saren dead, presumably the Geth wouldn't be as big a threat.

[ajax34i]

It's also possible that the Council's response is denial, similarly to how current governments would react to claims of UFO's and aliens.  BUT, a short while later, an unofficial agency (Cerberus?) does pay you a visit, writes down what you're saying, and generally tries to at least consider an actual threat response plan, however ineffective it may be.  I guess it'll all depend on everyone's reaction to the arrival of the Reapers - will they be completely surprised, or does Shepard get a call asking him to take charge of an already-prepared team, ship, fleet, intel on Reapers, etc.

[tmp]

I don't think the council didn't trust Shepard and thought he would make up evidence.  They thought that the evidence Shepard found was just an elaborate hoax by Saren, which was done to manipulate the Geth into following him.  With Saren dead, presumably the Geth wouldn't be as big a threat.

But how is the giant spaceship that's part of machine master race supposed to work as hoax to trick the geth into doing Saren's biddings, when it's at the same time also supposed to be the product of the geth? If it's built by the geth then they know it's not a machine god and have no reason to follow it/Saren. If they believe it's a machine god they should follow then it couldn't be built by them... and 2km long starship with completely unknown technology goes way beyond photoshopping as far as forging evidence goes.

edit: another thing re: lack of evidence that i just remembered... does the game ever provide reason not to give you option to just page the council about location of the derelict Reaper you visit in ME2, so they can see it for themselves? It's been a while so i just can't remember.

[Stormwaltz]

edit: another thing re: lack of evidence that i just remembered... does the game ever provide reason not to give you option to just page the council about location of the derelict Reaper you visit in ME2, so they can see it for themselves? It's been a while so i just can't remember.

No, we didn't think of it at the time. The Reaper mission was originally designed to be something of a "red alert" mission - TIM calls you up and says, "I just lost contact with my team - go there NOW and rectify the situation." That changed when the IFF was bundled into the mission, and I didn't have the presence of mind to consider all the spin-off effects.

It's like after the Pearl Harbor bombing the US government went "welp, that sucked but we shot down their planes. Now, back to business as usual."

I treated it as a 9/11 metaphor. Bad guys from far away pull off an devastating attack of surprising technical sophistication in the middle of our territory. Well, that's over - now let's redouble our efforts to keep the dirty foreign synthetics where they live. Patrols along their border to prevent them from entering our territory. Aggressive sweeps in areas we've seen them. Inside our own territory, let's pass a bunch of ineffective, privacy destroying laws to keep the robots from getting into sensitive places. Hm. We don't see any more geth coming out of the Veil, so we must have won. Back to planning the next election and restoring consumer confidence!

I'm not going to claim the logic is airtight. It requires you to assume a level of smug complacence on the part of the Council that ill-suits the leadership of the most powerful alliance in the galaxy. I have an extremely cynical view of the leadership of the most powerful nation on Earth, so to me its plausible enough to get a bye.

[Morat20]

I believe it is stated in ME2 that people went to investigate Ilos and the VI was not there (lost power, wore out, whatever) and so Shepherd is the only one who ever talked to it.

Of course, then in one of the ME2 side-quests you find fully working, intact Prothean artifact/beacon thingie, and rather than being given an option to bring it as the proof --sorry, "proof"-- it is placed on your coffee table so it can cutely shrink and expand when you touch it.

No facepalm big enough.

I don't remember that one.

[tmp]

I treated it as a 9/11 metaphor.

I did consider that analogy but thought it'd be too risky/bad taste to bring it up

Using this metaphor though, i'd say it also shows the game council logic fails pretty badly -- the US declared "war on terrorism" in response and actually went to kick what they considered to be the source on their own territory. To mix the metaphors a bit, i'd consider the appearance of the "reaper" an equivalent of your enemy demonstrating they are capable of building WMDs *and* actually using one on you. And in our own world the governments who feel they could just become potential targets of such attack... do their darndest to track down potential factories and blow them up sky-high if they are capable of pulling that off (like Israel is currently declaring they'd do)

So to instead let such enemy sit unpestered, allowing them to freely cook however many more such weapons they feel like cooking for the next attack, rather than enter their territory in force to locate and blow up the docks where the next "geth superstarhips" could be built... that's not just dumb, that's insane. And there's no amount of "well, governments *are* that dumb hurrhurr" that can make it plausible for me -- if just because it'd require such stupidity to extend over entire species, so they don't notice and question the stupidity of their glorious leaders, and/or demand actions to be taken.

[tmp]

I don't remember that one.

I had to look up the details, turns out i mixed up two missions. The coffee table sphere thingie is in the Firewalker DLC. The beacon is found in Rose Nebula side mission of the core game. A video of it is here

(it doesn't blow up or anything after you're done watching. You get the "mission complete" screen which says "Recovered Prothean relic.")

[Margalis]

I treated it as a 9/11 metaphor.

I don't have the best memory but from what I can recall right after 9/11 people were like "well, this was probably just a one-off thing, no way they have the inclination and resources to do something like this again." Certainly the possibility that terrorists would try further shenanigans involving planes was quickly dismissed.

Again, I don't have the greatest memory though.  

...

In all seriousness, the explanation is that it's a plot contrivance.

[lamaros]

No one would know you worked on the game from your comments Stormwaltz, no one! 

[Triax]

I treated it as a 9/11 metaphor.

I did consider that analogy but thought it'd be too risky/bad taste to bring it up

Using this metaphor though, i'd say it also shows the game council logic fails pretty badly -- the US declared "war on terrorism" in response and actually went to kick what they considered to be the source on their own territory. To mix the metaphors a bit, i'd consider the appearance of the "reaper" an equivalent of your enemy demonstrating they are capable of building WMDs *and* actually using one on you. And in our own world the governments who feel they could just become potential targets of such attack... do their darndest to track down potential factories and blow them up sky-high if they are capable of pulling that off (like Israel is currently declaring they'd do)

So to instead let such enemy sit unpestered, allowing them to freely cook however many more such weapons they feel like cooking for the next attack, rather than enter their territory in force to locate and blow up the docks where the next "geth superstarhips" could be built... that's not just dumb, that's insane. And there's no amount of "well, governments *are* that dumb hurrhurr" that can make it plausible for me -- if just because it'd require such stupidity to extend over entire species, so they don't notice and question the stupidity of their glorious leaders, and/or demand actions to be taken.

Easy enough to fix:
Alien Council
Shepard:  You've not taken me seriously, we have to deal with the threat from the Reapers
Turian Councilor: Ah yes, the "Reapers".  You really seem to have bought into Saren's gambit.  We're not so easily fooled, we've been preparing our counterattack against the Geth beyond the Perseus Veil over the last 2 years.  Our plans are almost ready to be launched.
Salarian Councilor: Yes, our STGs have been monitoring them closely looking for weaknesses within their patrol routes and actions, we are quite prepared Shepard.
Asari Councilor: Additionally, we've provided the Batarians with ships which are easily converted to warships to launch a "deniable" suprise attack against the Geth to draw their attention.  Using back route channels, we've supplied them sufficiently and begun negotiations for them to rejoin the Council races on a purely probationary status.
Shepard: But the Batarians have a grudge against humanity.
Turian Councilor: Hmm, we hadn't considered that possibility.  We'll have to form a committee to consider the implications of that, but of course it's much too late to stop our plans now.
Asari Councilor: And then there was the regrettable incident which occurred in the Batarian system which almost ruined everything.  What did you think you were....what is that?
Turian Councilor:  What do you mean the fleet was destroyed in dock by giant dreadnaughts of Geth design, where did they come from?
Salarain Councilor: The entire armada is gone, but...no time, tell my assistant "I hear my mother calling", he'll understand and take the appropriate measures...

Human Council
Shepard: You've not taken me seriously, we have to deal with the threat from the Reapers
Human Councilor 1: Ah yes, the Reapers, what a load of bullshit the Turians fed you through Saren.  How did you ever come to believe that?
Human Councilor 2: Yes, Shepard, it was obvious that the Turians were behind this all, we know how they operate.  And Saren, their top Spectre at the helm of the "sneak attack" on the Citadel...
Human COuncilor 3: It almost worked, they would've been able to step in a seize control, but we beat them to it.  But we needed the time to build up, they've been arming up as well, building dreadnaughts and the like.
Human Councilor 1: Yes, our fleets are almost ready, and we were going to use the Batarians to launch a second front, we've reached a compromise with them which will settle old debts between us.
Human Councilor 3: Yes, they were never to the true threat to humanity, not like the Turians have been since the beginning of our journey into the cosmos.
Human Councilor 1: And that whole problem in the Batarian system, you could've ruined it all Shepard, what were you....what do you mean the fleet was taken out in port, how did this happen?  But those bases are secret, how?
Human Councilor 3: Geth ships leading the charge, those Turian bastards, they were working with the Geth all along.  Just as we suspected.

[Stormwaltz]

Using this metaphor though, i'd say it also shows the game council logic fails pretty badly -- the US declared "war on terrorism" in response and actually went to kick what they considered to be the source on their own territory.

I should have spent more time describing a sort of Maginot Line-ification along the Perseus Veil. Maybe I would have if I'd been on the project into the side quest stage.

The 9/11 analogy only takes it so far. The geth in this case were less like al-Qaeda and more like a rogue section of the Chinese army. The US can roll over small mideast countries looking for the people who screwed them, but they couldn't roll over China. The best they could do would be to surround them with a military cordon, attempt to diplomatically isolate them (inapplicable in the case of the geth; they've already diplomatically isolated themselves), and watch them reaaaal close.

[UnSub]

Wasn't Shepherd the only one who could actually understand it due to the beacon thing?

Vigil spoke English (and was offline following ME1, which was convenient). And Shepherd theoretically still understands Protean, which means that Ilos becomes a massive tech cache of incredible value that s/he can personally unlock. Some of the info on the planet would probably relate to the Reapers.

I'm aware I'm picking holes in a space opera narrative, but it generally stems from the disconnect I get every time the Council acts like morons.

[tmp]

I should have spent more time describing a sort of Maginot Line-ification along the Perseus Veil. Maybe I would have if I'd been on the project into the side quest stage.

The 9/11 analogy only takes it so far. The geth in this case were less like al-Qaeda and more like a rogue section of the Chinese army. The US can roll over small mideast countries looking for the people who screwed them, but they couldn't roll over China. The best they could do would be to surround them with a military cordon, attempt to diplomatically isolate them (inapplicable in the case of the geth; they've already diplomatically isolated themselves), and watch them reaaaal close.

Uhh... okay, i'm sorry in this case, but the idea that the geth are China-sized force capable of giving the council races combined a run for money (which is what i'm getting from this analogy) ... well, the thought that there isn't any furious military buildup to prepare for further attacks from such powerful threat and/or people screaming bloody murder to get one going, that makes it even more impossible to accept, not less

I mean, it's not like the council guys actually know it's a 'rogue section of the army' that have attacked them, because as you point out the geth don't return diplomatic calls and don't make their own. So as far as the council is aware, they got their Washington DC nuked out of the blue by the regular geth, and maybe managed to beat the attacking force but the active war with the geth is present and ongoing, with no way to tell how soon the next attack is coming, how big it will be and what's going to be the target.

With a prospect like that --"the Reds Chinese are coming!"-- there srsly should be lot of preparations going for it in the game background, very much of the sort they'd be doing for the "reaper" attack, i imagine. And really, it's not like the entire plot of ME2 wouldn't fit well together with that, with Shepard doing the same stuff but as regular Spectre work, investigating suspected 'geth attacks' on the colonies. With the bonus it'd avoid making the entire galaxy act like a bunch of morons just to accomodate the plot, which is how it unfortunately feels now ;/

(and like Triax said, it's not like such setting couldn't be neutralized easily enough at the start of ME3, to whatever degree was deemed suitable)

[rk47]

It also helps to reconcile yourself to the fact that bioware feel 'continuity' is just superstitious nonsense.

I'm raging as fuck at this, too when I realized all the killed party members in DAO came back to life in the second one because the devs 'wants it that way.' Also, the TOR lore rape 'No, Revan was mindwiped. *TWICE* by the JEDI, and now by the Sith Artifact. This shit is just a bad fanfic. Oh let's not forget Kreia, the only woman in Star Wars galaxy who hated the force for what it is...SHE WAS CONTROLLED BY A SITH ARTIFACT TOO. GAHHHH, I hope ME3 doesn't allow this sort of dumbfuckery. It's the last game in the trilogy. Let Shepard go out with dignity.

[Morat20]

Tmp,

In ME2, there are several news items about Council military buildups -- the Turians are effectively getting a ton more power, building far more dreadnoughts, etc. Two years isn't a lot of time to even rebuild what they lost, much less expand.

I think there's an item about the Asari rebuilding the Destiny Whatmakecallit to twice it's former size.

[TripleDES]

In short, there's no evidence that Sovereign was anything more than a particularly impressive geth ship. The more Shepard insists that it's really a super-advanced and implacably hostile super-intelligence, the more he looks like the sort of kook that insists there are UFOs in the Bible and aliens built the pyramids.

By that logic, he should still be fighting an uphill battle in ME3, since I didn't see anything at the end of ME2 nor its DLC, that suggests the council or Citadel races are meanwhile thinking otherwise. And since

edit: another thing re: lack of evidence that i just remembered... does the game ever provide reason not to give you option to just page the council about location of the derelict Reaper you visit in ME2, so they can see it for themselves? It's been a while so i just can't remember.

It conveniently loses orbit and gets lost in the thick planet's atmosphere after you shot up its core.

[Ingmar]

Tmp,

In ME2, there are several news items about Council military buildups -- the Turians are effectively getting a ton more power, building far more dreadnoughts, etc. Two years isn't a lot of time to even rebuild what they lost, much less expand.

I think there's an item about the Asari rebuilding the Destiny Whatmakecallit to twice it's former size.

Yeah the ambient news broadcast things are full of stuff like that. Pretty sure there was also mention of such things in the daily news delivered via the Cerberus network at the launch screen.

[UnSub]

It also helps to reconcile yourself to the fact that bioware feel 'continuity' is just superstitious nonsense.

I'm raging as fuck at this, too when I realized all the killed party members in DAO came back to life in the second one because the devs 'wants it that way.'

I've said it before, but BioWare don't do good stories / narratives, they do good characters. This is possibly because (as Stormwaltz has shown) that the stories might undergo sudden, wide ranging revisions that have to be done quickly to meet development timelines. This doesn't leave much time for the continuity police to go through it and check that the new narrative doesn't leave a lot of dangling threads that players can pick at.

The other issue is that BioWare gives players some freedom within games, but catering to that freedom over several games is just too difficult / expensive. It's probably one of the reasons that BioWare track online stats so closely - they want to make story options / ramifications that cover 80% of the base rather than spending the money to develop content less than 5% will ever see. I still have to play through ME2 with my xenophobic renegade, but I'm interested to see how Wrex reacts to her given that she never let him on the ship.

[Morat20]

I've said it before, but BioWare don't do good stories / narratives, they do good characters. This is possibly because (as Stormwaltz has shown) that the stories might undergo sudden, wide ranging revisions that have to be done quickly to meet development timelines. This doesn't leave much time for the continuity police to go through it and check that the new narrative doesn't leave a lot of dangling threads that players can pick at.

I was actually pretty interested in the gift system -- and the conversation options -- with the characters in DA. They did a really good job with the characters, and they were pretty consistent on what would give and lose rep (or whatever it was called) in conversations.

Morrigan took me a bit to get ahold of, until I realized she was so sensitive about her personal freedom that even hinting at something that sounded like you making a choice for her (or limiting her choices) would piss her the fuck off. Any time where I have to sit down and actually think about the characters personalities -- and they're consistent enough to actually understand -- is a pretty good job, you know?

Not a lot of games offer that.