Mists of Pandaria

[Paelos]

So we're back to putting offensive stats on warriors again until Blizzard realizes this is a bad idea. The warrior class is starting to resemble a wheel of time cycle.

[Fabricated]

Yeah, forgot to mention. GC says that you get rage from shield slam, shouts, and autoattacking. So far this seems to be just fine for for aggro purposes since they made threat not matter anymore but it's apparently the consensus on the beta forums is that it is not terribly interesting.

[Merusk]

Autoattacks?  So if you have more haste, you get more rage?

What the fuck is it with GC and his hardon for haste?  I simply don't get it.

[Paelos]

I sort of wish we just had crit and defense as the only melee skills. The rest of them just seem to shift entirely too much.

[Fabricated]

I just wonder if GC realized that tanking was in all honesty a pretty easy, coosh job so long as people accepted your role as the defacto group leader in 5-mans, and as long as everyone else at least tried to do their jobs in raids. I've only ran LFR as DPS so far but outside of Ultraxion you really don't do much when tanking in Dragon Soul. As long as you keep aggro and stay upright you have a lot less to worry about than the DPS/healers.

[Ashamanchill]

I've read a lot of druid posts on the forums and they almost to a man say the changes suck. You sit there til you build 60 rage and hit Savage Defence (or Shield Block), every 6 seconds. I have no clue why they are toying with the tanking rotations at all. They felt about right in this xpac. The last time they reworked something to try to make it 'fun', most of the healers in the game quit.

[FieryBalrog]

Dunno, tanking seems like more responsibility than healing or DPS in Dragon Soul. Just looking at what our tanks have to do intimidates me a bit. The old guild I was in, the majority of our trouble on bosses like Zon'ozz was due to our MT being prone to careless errors (she was also our GL).

Maybe it just sounds harder because I don't tank, but while both healers and DPS have to deal with mechanics, it seems like on the later two-tank fights (Ultraxion, Warmaster, Spine, Madness), the tanks have to both deal with the mechanics and be in great sync with each other, always aware of which tank is handling which Twilight Hour, Impale, etc and smoothly switching off. And any fuckup is much harder to get back from than a DPS fuckup.

[FieryBalrog]

The last time they reworked something to try to make it 'fun', most of the healers in the game quit.

If most of them actually did quit then they were being dumb. Healing was terrible in Wrath and much, much better in Cata, even at launch with the intensive mana micromanagement. I didn't do much BC healing and I've heard that's even better, but the changes were a net plus.

[Fabricated]

Tanking is fine to me right now but overall it's mashy. You just kinda mash your face on the keyboard until you need a CD, then you hit that CD. At least that's as a warrior; you have a priority list but no one is going to notice if you're using devastate too much and not immediately hitting revenge when it lights up or whatever. As long as you're pushing one of the correct buttons that's off CD you're gold really.

[Sjofn]

Druids don't either.

Warriors and Death Knights are the most interactive and, frankly, the most annoying to play.

Yeah, I was pretty sure druids didn't really have to watch shit either, but I never actually got around to leveling my druid all the way to 85 (he's languishing at 83 I think). So I stuck with what I know for sure!  

I should dick around in the MoP beta more, for some reason it's just really not thrilling me. Although the monk, what little I played of it, was pretty fun. Said monk is only like level 7 though before server crashes annoyed me enough to stop, and then I never logged back in.

PERHAPS I WILL LOG IN RIGHT NOW

fake edit: For paladins, Mr. Balrog, Cataclysm is the best for healing. There was basically no difference between TBC and WotLK healing functionally, it just changed which heal you cast for all eternity, no matter what was happening.

[Rokal]

Tanking is fine to me right now but overall it's mashy. You just kinda mash your face on the keyboard until you need a CD, then you hit that CD. At least that's as a warrior; you have a priority list but no one is going to notice if you're using devastate too much and not immediately hitting revenge when it lights up or whatever. As long as you're pushing one of the correct buttons that's off CD you're gold really.

It's the role with the most organizational responsibility, but it's pretty forgiving in actual minute-to-minute gamplay. If you die because you got hit by an attack instead of parrying it, your group isn't going to say "maybe our tank needs to reforge for parry" they are going to say "our healer fell behind and RNG meant the tank got a regular hit."

If you don't follow your 'rotation' correctly, it doesn't really matter. Cata started with tanks having to fight a little bit for threat so you'd want to be using abilities every GCD to stay on top of things. Now? A tank could disconnect during the last 20% of a fight and you'll still probably win without the tank losing threat. This actually happened to us right after the threat changes went into 4.2. We killed normal Baleroc with our tank disconnecting around the 40% mark. They didn't lose aggro, and they were able to survive without actually having to use any cooldowns.

This changed a bit finally in DS, with tanks having more responsibility and having to use cooldowns at the correct time for a few fights or die. The 4-piece bonus for every tank (raid-wide damage reduction cooldown) means that playing well as a tank can have a bigger impact on your raid than it did in T11/12.

The MoP design is that they are trying to give tanks more things to do that are actually meaningful now that threat isn't important. Some of the changes so far don't sound great, but we'll see what shape everything is in as the beta gets further along.

[Azazel]

Oh fuck. "Meaningful."

Yeah, that worked out so well last time, didn't it? 

[Nevermore]

The last time they reworked something to try to make it 'fun', most of the healers in the game quit.

If most of them actually did quit then they were being dumb. Healing was terrible in Wrath and much, much better in Cata, even at launch with the intensive mana micromanagement. I didn't do much BC healing and I've heard that's even better, but the changes were a net plus.

I actually liked healing with my Druid in Wrath and hated it in Cata.  I imagine it depends on the class since I know Sjofn much prefers (understatement) Paladin healing in Cata.  Actually, I tried healing on my Paladin in Cata though I only got up to level 70 iirc.  It was fun for single healing but I wouldn't want to raid heal with it personally.

[Ingmar]

Druid was much less fun in Cata, I liked rolling HoTs everywhere, didn't like the hardcasting style nearly as much.

[Sjofn]

The last time they reworked something to try to make it 'fun', most of the healers in the game quit.

If most of them actually did quit then they were being dumb. Healing was terrible in Wrath and much, much better in Cata, even at launch with the intensive mana micromanagement. I didn't do much BC healing and I've heard that's even better, but the changes were a net plus.

I actually liked healing with my Druid in Wrath and hated it in Cata.  I imagine it depends on the class since I know Sjofn much prefers (understatement) Paladin healing in Cata.  Actually, I tried healing on my Paladin in Cata though I only got up to level 70 iirc.  It was fun for single healing but I wouldn't want to raid heal with it personally.

It's pretty much the same for raid healing, people never expect the paladin to do much of it. Comes from having zero AE healing for so long. :P They're actually fine for raid healing (I am told, what with the change to the AE HoT thing), but I haven't done it since that change. I was OK at spot raid healing but I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be THE raid healer.

I totally agree that druid healing is lame in Cataclysm, though, the HoT stuff in WotLK was fun.

[Fordel]

Druid healing in Cata wasn't "Druid Healing" anymore basically. I don't think it was bad mechanically, but it wasn't what I signed up for either. After spending the first 5 years of the game healing one way, then having it all pushed aside for something I didn't have interest in in the first place, felt like ass.

[Rokal]

Oh fuck. "Meaningful."

Yeah, that worked out so well last time, didn't it?  

How else would you describe the tanking changes? What tanks do right now in combat for most groups from 99-0% on a boss, aside from gimmicks like tank swaps, is basically meaningless. You could mash anything (or nothing) and as long as you got threat on the initial pull it wouldn't matter. That's bad gameplay. Good gameplay needs to be a little deeper than 'mash whatever button you feel like, or nothing at all'.

I'd say the attempt to making healing more 'meaningful' in Cata worked out. I still really like those changes on my priest, and thought healing in Wrath was awful from the little I played. Even in LFR I'm encouraged to use 4-5 different abilities on my holy priest, and sometimes it makes sense to just stop healing.

Are people actually looking to go back to a gameplay model where you spam frostbolt from 99-0% and do nothing else? That's what the old healing model was.

[Paelos]

I wouldn't say that I want tanking to be meaningful. I just want to have an impact on the fight.

Meaningful always means there's a downside. There's always a punishment lurking if you don't do well. The ability to have an impact on a fight by performing better than the average player is entirely different. It's the idea that I can play the game as a good tank and help my friends who may or may not be great at their jobs get through the content.

I want impact play at all levels. I think you have that with DPS, and to many degrees with healing. I don't think tanking was there when I left the game a year ago.

[Ironwood]

Oh for the love of God, let's not do this again Rokal.

You're not the voice.  Stop it.

[Rokal]

I wouldn't say that I want tanking to be meaningful. I just want to have an impact on the fight.

I get that 'meaningful' is the new buzz word to hate in gaming, but how else would you summarize the gameplay you just outlined?

You do have an impact on the fight as a tank right now, it's just not... meaningful   You're contributing dps. You're reducing some of the damage you take. It just doesn't add up to much.  

[Fordel]

Are people actually looking to go back to a gameplay model where you spam frostbolt from 99-0% and do nothing else? That's what the old healing model was.

Spamming frostbolt and adding in a few procs and situational abilities, yea, most people would probably love that. It's about all the majority can manage while also keeping awareness for fight mechanics.

[Nevermore]

How else would you describe the tanking changes? What tanks do right now in combat for most groups from 99-0% on a boss, aside from gimmicks like tank swaps, is basically meaningless. You could mash anything (or nothing) and as long as you got threat on the initial pull it wouldn't matter. That's bad gameplay. Good gameplay needs to be a little deeper than 'mash whatever button you feel like, or nothing at all'.

I'd say the attempt to making healing more 'meaningful' in Cata worked out. I still really like those changes on my priest, and thought healing in Wrath was awful from the little I played. Even in LFR I'm encouraged to use 4-5 different abilities on my holy priest, and sometimes it makes sense to just stop healing.

Are people actually looking to go back to a gameplay model where you spam frostbolt from 99-0% and do nothing else? That's what the old healing model was.

Posts like this make me think Greg Street has joined F13 under the handle 'Rokal'. 

[Paelos]

I would say that I want to be influential as a tank, not meaningful.

Influencing a fight is an option. You can decide whether or not you want to influence something. When you are meaningful to a fight, you have a serious, important quality or purpose. You can't slack off. It's a job that must be done all the time, or it's failtime.

That's why I want jobs to be influential, not meaningful.

[Fordel]

I think Paelos is talking about the ability to carry other players. Which I would agree with. Before Cata, a few decent players could pick up the slack for a few under preforming players.

Couldn't really do it Cata release though and it caused a lot of roadblocks.

[Paelos]

I think Paelos is talking about the ability to carry other players. Which I would agree with. Before Cata, a few decent players could pick up the slack for a few under preforming players.

Couldn't really do it Cata release though and it caused a lot of roadblocks.

Bingo.

[Ingmar]

That isn't about whether what you're doing is meaningful or not, that is about where the pivot point is set for content difficulty.

[caladein]

I would say that I want to be influential as a tank, not meaningful.

Influencing a fight is an option. You can decide whether or not you want to influence something. When you are meaningful to a fight, you have a serious, important quality or purpose. You can't slack off. It's a job that must be done all the time, or it's failtime.

That's why I want jobs to be influential, not meaningful.

I still don't understand how you can influence something when the result isn't in question.  If the result is in question if enough players forgo influential contributions, then what's the difference between "influential" and "meaningful"?

[Ingmar]

Yeah I don't see a distinction either.

[Rokal]

Posts like this make me think Greg Street has joined F13 under the handle 'Rokal'.  

Sorry, you're like a year late on the conspiracy bandwagon there.

Oh for the love of God, let's not do this again Rokal.

You're not the voice.  Stop it.

I would rather contribute to discussions in threads about the games I'm playing than just posting worthless one-liners every few days like you.

I would say that I want to be influential as a tank, not meaningful.

Influencing a fight is an option. You can decide whether or not you want to influence something. When you are meaningful to a fight, you have a serious, important quality or purpose. You can't slack off. It's a job that must be done all the time, or it's failtime.

I'm just not really understanding a great enough distinction. If there was a role that had 'do X or fail completely' at the moment, it's tanks for some DS gimmicks. It's an important, serious, and specific role that will cause your group to fail if you ignore. But it's just that: a gimmick. Core tanking gameplay still has little to no impact on your group.

Whether I play my druid tank to the best of my abilities, or just hit Mangle and swipe every 10 seconds, it's not really going to influence the success of the group. I like the concept of tanks being more responsible for their own survivability. Lay on Hands has always seemed like a pretty awesome ability for Paladin tanks. If you're paying attention to your health, you can completely save yourself without assistance from another player. More abilities like it and deathstrike would be welcome.

Then I see the beta details where people are talking about waiting around for rage for shield block, and it just seems like another boring tanking model in-progress. Shield block is already in the game. Warrior tanks already use this as often as possible. It has a very small impact on your own survivability, or your group's success. If shield block still barely has an impact on my survivability, what's my motivation to use it correctly instead of just watching Netflix? Where is my motivation to improve as a tank?

I'm not really sure how Blizzard should fix it. Part of the reason I'm excited about Guild Wars 2 is because they're mostly doing away with the concept of dedicated tanks and dedicated healers. That's certainly one way to solve the problem.

[Pennilenko]

Jeesus, quit slap fighting and get this thread back on track to talking about information about MoP.

[luckton]

Speaking of healing changes, how about those spec changes that lock out healing spells that DPS/tanks used to use every so often  

- Resto Druids are now the only type of Druids that can use Regrowth, Nourish, and Lifebloom
- Holy Paladins are now the only type of Paladin that can use Holy Light
- Holy Priests are now the only type of Priest that can use Heal
- Resto Shaman are now the only type of Shaman that can use Healing Wave and G. Healing Wave

[Ingmar]

Wasn't CoH always a holy spec spell?

[Rokal]

Speaking of healing changes, how about those spec changes that lock out healing spells that DPS/tanks used to use every so often  

I don't really mind the change. It was nice being able to heal in emergencies as a Shadow Priest, for example, but I didn't need 10 different heals to do it. As a shadow priest if I get Prayer of Healing, PW:S, and Flash Heal, that's enough.

The hybrid classes have some really insane ability bloat, and I'm happy that they're trying to cut down on that.

The absolute worst is druids, who it seems like could fill 2 bars with feral abilities (that wont fit on the 10 slots you got for cat or bear) that you will almost never use as a resto or balance druid. Do I really need more than 10 abilities for bear form as a resto druid? All I really want is taunt, 1-2 damage abilities, and a 1-2 utility spells.

[luckton]

Wasn't CoH always a holy spec spell?

Indeed.  Fixed 

[Sjofn]

It will make zero difference to my protection paladin or bear druid, that's for sure.