Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)

[Chimpy]

You have to remember that Martin's early success as a writer was writing for television. Television is almost never written with an end planned from the get go and it rarely continues to have the same lustre as it progresses.

[Samwise]

Instead, I had purchased the 100 years war or War of the Roses (I forget which) with ice zombies and dragons as a minor backdrop.

You hit the nail on the head.  Here's a quote from the recent Rolling Stone interview:

I did consider at a very early stage – going all the way back to 1991 – whether to include overt fantasy elements, and at one point thought of writing a Wars of the Roses novel. But the problem with straight historical fiction is you know what's going to happen. If you know anything about the Wars of the Roses, you know that the princes in the tower aren't going to escape. I wanted to make it more unexpected, bring in some more twists and turns. The main question was the dragons: Do I include dragons? I knew I wanted to have the Targaryens have their symbol be the dragons; the Lannisters have the lions, the Starks have the wolves. Should these things be literal here? Should the Targaryens actually have dragons? I was discussing this with a friend, writer Phyllis Eisenstein – I dedicated the third book to her – and she said, "George, it's a fantasy – you've got to put in the dragons."

So, yeah, the fantasy elements were in fact an afterthought.  

I loved Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, though, and most of what Tolkien wrote, so of course I love this stuff too and don't particularly care if there's a fight scene in every chapter.  People who signed up for zombies fighting dragons on a roller coaster are gonna have to wait a while.

[schild]

You liked the Baroque Cycle?

Like a knife through my heart. Cryptonomicon was so good and that shit was just unreadable.

[Samwise]

I actually thought Cryptonomicon was muddled and rushed by comparison and didn't enjoy it as much.  Baroque Cycle was loooooong and could have used an editor and/or fewer story lines, but it did at least have a satisfying ending, which is more than you can say about a lot of Stephenson's work.

[schild]

Well, cyberpunk is basically universally shit. Cryptonomicon was muddled, but great to read. Baroque Cycle felt like reading a shitty bible.

[Soulflame]

Oh, wow, a shout out to Phyllis Eisenstein.  I can't hate on him for that.

 

[Viin]

Reamde was good though. 

[disKret]

Reamde was good though. 

Wtf are You talking about. After all his books Ramde was fucking boring with just one interesting idea of "future"-MMO. The rest was boring thrash.

[Ironwood]

I've clearly entered into the Season of Agreeing With Schild.

It's uncomfortable.

Baroque Cycle was far, far, far too big and unwieldy and, really, didn't make much sense really.  (and I don't mean it wasn't understandable).  It was like he took Cryptonomicon and shoved helium into it until it was Stephen King Huge.  Bearing in mind that Crypto contained a fair bit of bloat, and you're looking at one fat pig of a work.

While Wife-Unit is enjoying GoT hugely (mostly due to it suddenly having non-book shit in it so she can be surprised) I've pretty much given up on it.  It may as well be the 'Sophie Turner Show' for me, since that's really the only reason I'm watching.  The character interactions are kinda funny, but if I wanted that shit, I'd watch, you know, a comedy show.  I don't even like the tits anymore, since this season has just taken a really, really sharp turn into Rape-Land.

As for the fat one, it's quite clear he has NO Clue what he's doing.  The show is just going to have to go it alone. 

[Khaldun]

The problem is re: the Wars of the Roses/100 Years War as a model for this narrative, that the middle of those events is full of chaos as life unravels. That's important to the functioning of any retelling of those events (and it's not incidental that the most avid retellers, like Shakespeare, were propagandists for the regimes that re-established order). But it's a storytelling challenge: how do you make chaos interesting, and how do you make it something other than one long rape-and-murder-fest? It's really the same issue as a post-apocalyptic story, and in many ways Game of Thrones IS a post-apocalypse story in which the main protagonists don't *know* yet that they're in the post-apocalypse.

The only way to tell a post-apocalypse story is either to have a few islands of civilization desperately holding out against the chaos or to follow a few charismatic and basically 'good' survivors trying to hold on to decency. That's kind of where the next season (and the last half of this season) of GoT could go, but Martin's books don't help much with that because of the way he fragments the story thematically and follows characters every which-where.

[HaemishM]

The episodes since Joffery died have definitely tailed off.

To be fair, that's what happens to the books too. If it weren't for the stuff they've added this season, it'd be about 7 episodes long instead of 10.

[Paelos]

A Feast for Crows is just awful. Nothing happens in that entire book.

You could literally sum up the entire action of that book in a page, and skip it.

[Chimpy]

I always felt she was very much like that in the books. She is generally pretty soft-hearted and she never really comes across as comfortable being stern.

[eldaec]

I always felt she was very much like that in the books. She is generally pretty soft-hearted and she never really comes across as comfortable being stern.

Reading the books I thought the author intended heart and soul of a concrete elephant but wrote it badly so it came off as weak and feeble woman.

All of his non-sociopathic female characters are the same to be honest.

[Chimpy]

Well of course his non-sociopathic women are terribly written, the guy obviously understands women as well as your typical "visit GenCon every year" neckbeard   .

[Soulflame]

Tyrion was the only worthwhile thing in the books as well.

[Rendakor]

Which is why Feast was such garbage.

[eldaec]

Tyrion was the only worthwhile thing in the books as well.

I get why people follow along tv shows that frustrate them, but seriously? You finished off 5 fucking enormous novels after concluding only 1 in 10 chapters was worth reading? Do you hate yourself or something?

[Soulflame]

Tyrion was the only worthwhile thing in the books as well.

I get why people follow along tv shows that frustrate them, but seriously? You finished off 5 fucking enormous novels after concluding only 1 in 10 chapters was worth reading? Do you hate yourself or something?

No.  I read book 1, and was horrified when Martin killed off Ned Stark.  Literally the only likable character in the entire series, and Martin kills him off.

I read book 2, and wished death upon everyone but Tyrion.

I tried to read book 3, but gave up only a few chapters in.

I read threads here and there on GoT, because I wanted so much to like the series, but just didn't.  Everything I've read since then confirms my notion that Tyrion is the only somewhat likable character, and that everyone else should be turned into a snow zombie.

[Riggswolfe]

Maybe I'm not remembering events in the books but the show feels like it is accelerating quickly. That said, next season will have to introduce all the Dorn stuff from the later books which will bring all this momentum to a screeching halt when paired with Dany's tale of doing a lot of nothing.

[eldaec]

Maybe I'm not remembering events in the books but the show feels like it is accelerating quickly. That said, next season will have to introduce all the Dorn stuff from the later books which will bring all this momentum to a screeching halt when paired with Dany's tale of doing a lot of nothing.

In terms of pages per episode I'm fairly certain this is the slowest season yet.

[tazelbain]

I wonder how long till GRRM gets placed on the same shelf as Robert Jordan.

[schild]

Shouldn't he have been on the same shelf since book 1. From everyone I've talked to about the series, it's all shit shit shit in hindsight. Sweet at the time, total crap once it wore off.

[Numtini]

Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.

[Riggswolfe]

Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.

I feel the exact opposite. The Jordan books were a chore and got worse as time went on. Every damn woman in his books was the same character and all of them were in love with Rand Al'thor. The Jordan books are the only books in my entire life where I've said "fuck it, I'm skipping these chapters."  The first 3 Games of Thrones book were pretty damn good but these last two suffer from Jordanitis. It's a thing!

[Paelos]

Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.

Comparably, they are the same. Jordan's books turned to shit by book 5.

[Rasix]

Hey, Dumai's Wells was in 6.  Of course, that's pretty much the shark jumping point, until the books get back on the rails (much) later.

As much as we like to rail against books 4&5 of A Song of Ice and Fire, they just don't compare to the slow books of Jordan.  Jordan turned slow into a braid-pulling art form.

As is, I think book 3 could have easily been one longer season, but they need to stall.  These next two seasons are going to piss people off.  It'll be like the middling slow seasons in Deadwood and Sopranos.

[HaemishM]

Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.

I feel the exact opposite. The Jordan books were a chore and got worse as time went on. Every damn woman in his books was the same character

This. SO MUCH THIS.

I find I tear through Martin books while the Jordan stuff drags. Maybe it's being dragged down by all the braid-tugging.

[Phildo]

I feel like I just lost time while reading some of Jordan's later books.  At least I can point to things I remember from the last two Ice & Fire books.

Can't disagree about there being some strong similarities, though.

[Shannow]

I wonder if Book 6's release will be tied to the start of Season 5 and/or we might see some fairly large divergence from the plot of the books in the TV series.

Frankly I find the whole process kind of fascinating, a book series being written at the same time as TV series of the book is being made...with the TV series popularity does the tail begin to wag the dog? Has it affected GRRM's writing?

[Paelos]

I wonder if Book 6's release will be tied to the start of Season 5 and/or we might see some fairly large divergence from the plot of the books in the TV series.

Frankly I find the whole process kind of fascinating, a book series being written at the same time as TV series of the book is being made...with the TV series popularity does the tail begin to wag the dog? Has it affected GRRM's writing?

If it has, it can only affect it for the better. TV shows usually demand action and conflict.

[Ingmar]

I don't think they're even close to as meandering and pointless as later Jordan books, personally. That's some hyperbole-cancer action right there.

[Typhon]

I read the second book, with nary a mention of the Whitewalkers and said, 'this fucker is trying to Jordan me", and didn't go a book further.

As far as I'm concerned it's not hyperbole in the least, it's spot-on.

[Phildo]

Again, the White Walkers are the fantasy window dressing.  Or the dessert, depending on how you want to look at it.

[Yegolev]

What happened to that Ice and Fire book thread?