Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)

[eldaec]

Pretty sure he's either legitimized or he isn't. So it isn't just 'as a stark'.

If legitimisation sticks then the targ side applies too.

[Rendakor]

Well, it's sort of tricky because typically the term is used by a father, officially acknowledging a bastard child. In Jon's case a simple decree might make him a Stark, but someone would need to offer some proof of his Targaryen ancestry before anyone would recognize it. Robb noted that Jon was his heir, but word of that doesn't appear to have traveled since Stannis was offering him legitimization in the end of Book 3. Catelyn knows about it, but she hasn't done much talking since coming back as a zombie so the whole situation is sort of up in the air.

[eldaec]

Technically you don't know if Robb's will either legitimised anyone or who is his heir. We know he discussed Jon with Catelyn, and we know he then gave a will to a group of Lords who conspicuously did not ride to Castle Black following the red wedding.

Howland Reed has knowledge of both the will and the events at the tower of joy.

[Rendakor]

I had completely forgotten that Robb sent off a will; it hasn't been mentioned since the Red Wedding has it?

[eldaec]

No, it is assumed to be at Greywater Watch with Howland Reed, Maege Mormont, and Galbert Glover.

I would assume they've realised the truth about Jon, and that at some point they'll emerge and try to build a faction around him. If someone else is named heir to Robb I'd be surprised, but it is possible. In that case they might try to build a Jon-for-iron-throne, ???for-winterfell ticket. But that seems awfully and unnecessarily complex.

[Merusk]

I begin to suspect Howland Reed is more insidious than currently shown.  He's around when too many big things happen, even if we don't see him.

[eldaec]

Possibly, his perfect kids suggest otherwise though.

At the very least I expect he's on the right page in understanding the role of magic in current events. The obvious big dislocation this society has to face is when the high born community have to accept the return of magic. That event gives the writer an opportunity to shake all the major factions around, and for good or ill Reed will be in the centre of it.

[Arthur_Parker]

I begin to suspect Howland Reed is more insidious than currently shown.  He's around when too many big things happen, even if we don't see him.

He got beat up by three Squires and had a girl rescue him, maybe that's changed him, but it's a fairly steep ladder to climb to insidious from there.

[Threash]

That's a super villain origin story right there.

[eldaec]

I really don't know the convention on spoilers for this.

But the TV seemed to spoil a moderately significant book mystery this week.

Robb Stark has an heir, ergo, Jon might well not be named in his will, since Robb only needs a regent.

This would explain in a pretty satisfactory manner why the witnesses to the will are holed up at the greywater watch. Seems likely Jeyne and the Blackfish are headed the same way.

[Teleku]

Keep in mind, its really iffy about what way they are going with Robbs wife in the TV version.  That same episode where she was writing a letter he couldn't read, hinting at secrets.....  I don't know, I hope not, but I'm just waiting for her to end up being a true backstabber in this version, as opposed to an unwilling participant.  She very well could be lying about the baby along with everything.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Then there's all this too:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Westerling/Theories

It's all getting pretty murky between these plot discrepancies and secret letters. Is stuff like changing descriptions sloppy writing or a clue to a secret conspiracy? Some people who have given it a lot of thought seem to believe the latter.

[eldaec]

I've always felt the change in description was not an accident, but pregnancy isn't the only explanation.

I find it hard to imagine a satisfactory way for TV wife to be corresponding with tywin, but you never know. I could imagine TV wife dying at the red wedding, though that would also be a spoiler, since it tells us Jeyne can't be that significant going forward.

But I can't help thinking an heir explains the (non)behaviour of Mormont, Glover, and Reed better.

[Phred]

Seeing as the last book came out 3? 4? years ago with no next book in sight and the non readers made their own thread can we go back to the game of thrones thread? 3 seem a bit redundant and the only thing that sparks discussion is the tv show.

[Merusk]

The last book came out 2011, some folks don't want to discuss books in the TV thread because the two are no longer tightly related.  It is odd the TV discussion is happening here vs. in that thread, though.

[Ingmar]

As of 4 posts ago, we were still talking about the books. I don't think there's a topic drift problem.

[eldaec]

I'm not sure I get the issue.

Conversation above is about Jeyne Westerling being missing from half way through 3 to the end of 5 and whether she is or isn't pregnant, and how that might explain the (in)action of other characters in those books.

The TV show show references are because in an episode written by GRRM the equivalent character said 'hey guyz I'm preggers'.

[Arthur_Parker]

Maybe we need a fourth thread that I can avoid discussing which of the other three to post in.  

[eldaec]

So I was pretty sold on Martin's fake out re Jeyne being pregnant.

And the return of balance to the universe well handled.

[Threash]

I know the TV show can't spend any time on minor characters but I wish Dacey Mormont and the small John would at least been identified before the slaughter.  I saw a really fat guy with twirly mustaches and a mermaid pin sitting next to the Blackfish so they obviously took the trouble to try to match the extras to their book counterparts.

[K9]

Saw this, thought it was pretty cool. Word clouds of all of Arya's chapters from the first five books.

[K9]

George RR Martin has announced that he has finished writing The World of Ice and FIre, and it should be hitting the shelves in October.

 

[Engels]

That's like writing the Simarillion before finishing the Return of The King.

[Khaldun]

Ok, I think he might as well take out an ad in Vanity that says, "I HAVE WRITER'S BLOCK OK, FUCK OFF".

[Merusk]

Writers block or he's bored with the series.  I remember reading he's done similar with his other projects, too.

[Chimpy]

I am sure that his writers block will miraculously cure itself once HBO gets within a season of the end of the current books.

[Pennilenko]

Everybody knows that gobs of money is the best cure for mental blockage.

[Khaldun]

I don't think so in this case. He's got gobs of money already. He just is clearly having a hard time finishing it. It might be that he's written himself into a corner: too many stories that need closure, and too much of a commitment to not providing neat closure to most of the stories. Now if this was generic fantasy series #55,504, it would be pretty easy:

[Merusk]

2/10 no Gendry, Hound, threesome or lesbianism. Would not read again.

[Chimpy]

Oh, I vaguely remember him saying at one point that the decision to split the fourth book into two parallel sets if characters instead of shortening the length of time it covered was a mistake and led him to paint himself into a corner he couldn't get out of.

[shiznitz]

I am 30% through Dance with Dragons and I am enjoying it quite a bit.  I held off reading it for so long because I heard so many middling reviews of it.  Yes, it is of a different pace than the first three, but it is better than Feast (which I also liked and actually re-skimmed before I started Dragons) which was still a good book on its own.

[HaemishM]

I haven't started Dance yet, but Feast was NOT a good book. It was about 1/2 of a good book and 1/2 a book of stories that went nowhere, did nothing and felt like filler with lots of important events happening somewhere off-page.

[Khaldun]

Oh, Gendry and Hound are implicitly covered in the big wrap-it-up fan-favorite end battle. Basically just think the Battle of Hogwarts, GoT style. Gobs of fan service.

Threesomes are for when you're still wasting time; if you're going for the quick wrap-up generic fantasy ending #236, the threesomes need to wait for after the end of the big battle. Happy endings!

[shiznitz]

I haven't started Dance yet, but Feast was NOT a good book. It was about 1/2 of a good book and 1/2 a book of stories that went nowhere, did nothing and felt like filler with lots of important events happening somewhere off-page.

Well I enjoyed all the Brienne parts and since those were spread over the entire book, it kept me interested.  Sam and Gilly can die in a wagon fire.

[HaemishM]

I would have enjoyed the Brienne parts more if I felt they were leading to anything. Most of the book just seemed to be time-wasting filler while the kingdom disintegrates.