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Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on July 12, 2011, 11:25:03 AM
Just wanted to warn everyone to kiss your loved ones goodbye, since the apocalypse is upon us. A Dance With Dragons just hit my Kindle. Anyone taking bets on the release dates of the next book? I will take the over.

Looks like the library has 3 copies and 1 on order. Being number 33 on the hold list, I can assume that I will get a copy to read about mid-september.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: WayAbvPar on July 13, 2011, 08:46:30 AM
Got ours from Amazon today - it's very thick. I would have preferred it read it on the Kindle, but I already have all the other books in paper copy ...

I had the same problem- I wanted to read the first 4 again, but didn't want to read the physical copies. I also didn't want to buy ADWD (should it ever come out) physically...so I bought the 4 book omnibus on Kindle  :grin:

Only 2 chapters (plus the prologue) in so far, but already an oh shit moment. Some of it feels slightly off from the earlier books, but that may just be me. So far so good?


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Quinton on July 13, 2011, 11:19:02 AM
One thing that threw me at first is some of the events at the start of book five predate events toward the end of book four.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Ard on July 13, 2011, 01:28:51 PM
Book 5 runs in parallel with book 4.  The stories were originally supposed to be interleaved into one book.  Even after the tv series, I just can't be made to care about this book anymore, it's just been too damn long, and I don't want to reread the other 4 again now.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Merusk on July 13, 2011, 02:37:46 PM
Book 5 runs in parallel with book 4.  The stories were originally supposed to be interleaved into one book.  Even after the tv series, I just can't be made to care about this book anymore, it's just been too damn long, and I don't want to reread the other 4 again now.

There's little need.  Based on the first few chapters, he enjoys retelling things as much as Jordan did.

I'm finding I enjoy the chapters of the characters I suspect he dislikes more than the ones he likes.  Jon Snow, for example has very little bullshit and a lot of story.  Tyrion's chapters... do I need to hear the details of every goddamn object and piece of food?


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Threash on July 13, 2011, 05:01:17 PM
He does have a way of making food sound incredibly good though.  Just finished A Dance with Dragons, it is officially safe to get back on the internet, whew.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Amaron on July 13, 2011, 07:18:53 PM
Book 5 runs in parallel with book 4. 

So you guys have been waiting for this guy to write the book for years and a good chunk of it isn't even a sequel?  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Rendakor on July 13, 2011, 07:23:06 PM
Book 5 was originally supposed to be a part of Book 4; when the author realized how long it was going to end up, he cut it in half (by characters, not chronologically) so ADWD covers the characters that weren't in AFFC in the same time period. The foreword hints, however, that ADWD will go a bit further, and wrap up some things from the characters in AFFC too.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Ingmar on July 13, 2011, 07:31:23 PM
Book 5 runs in parallel with book 4.  The stories were originally supposed to be interleaved into one book.  Even after the tv series, I just can't be made to care about this book anymore, it's just been too damn long, and I don't want to reread the other 4 again now.

It only starts out paralleling 5.

Finished it today, up to his usual standard, IMO, now to wait another 5 years.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Threash on July 13, 2011, 08:33:35 PM
Book 5 runs in parallel with book 4. 

So you guys have been waiting for this guy to write the book for years and a good chunk of it isn't even a sequel?  :ye_gods:

None of them were "sequels" it is all the same story spread out throughout seven books.  That 4 and 5 run parallel doesn't really affect anything.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Bunk on July 14, 2011, 06:01:00 AM
I'm about five chapters in and I'm quite suprised how little trouble I've had remembering who some of these characters are. I think I read Crows about four years ago, but he does a decent job of refreshing you on who people are without going overboard.

Unlike say when I would torture myself with the WoT books, and have to look up characters in the appendex every time he jumped away from one of the core five.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Quinton on July 14, 2011, 12:03:23 PM
Yeah, I was a little worried about starting "cold" without rereading any of the earlier books, but who's who is coming back pretty quickly.  Every now and again I'm surprised by where a character is and I take a moment to recall what happened to get them there.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Khaldun on July 15, 2011, 06:19:28 AM
The "Reek" chapter was the only one where I felt I needed to remind myself of previous events.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Sjofn on July 15, 2011, 03:12:31 PM
Book 5 runs in parallel with book 4.  The stories were originally supposed to be interleaved into one book.  Even after the tv series, I just can't be made to care about this book anymore, it's just been too damn long, and I don't want to reread the other 4 again now.

There's little need.  Based on the first few chapters, he enjoys retelling things as much as Jordan did.

I'm finding I enjoy the chapters of the characters I suspect he dislikes more than the ones he likes.  Jon Snow, for example has very little bullshit and a lot of story.  Tyrion's chapters... do I need to hear the details of every goddamn object and piece of food?

See, I cannot fucking stand Jon Snow or his chapters any more. There is "story" in those chapters but they are boring as fuck.



But yeah, I went in without rereading the first four and like someone else said, the first Reek chapter was the only one where I went "uhhhh, shit, what's going on?"


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Merusk on July 15, 2011, 06:06:12 PM
Oh I wasn't saying the story was any good, just that there was more of it than intricate page-and-a-half descriptions of the surroundings.  Martin's dislike for the character is pretty apparent at this point.

Meanwhile, I enjoyed Tyrion until this book.  Now it's just blatantly obvious that he's Martin's Mary Sue so I'm sick of him.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Sjofn on July 15, 2011, 07:14:16 PM
Neither PoV is really totally great, really. I just cannot give a shit about the Wall and all that any more. Tyrion's PoV I care about more, even when it's meandering (although I wouldn't complain if it meandered less). At least I'm finally giving a shit about Dany's chapters!

My favorite PoV only got ... two chapters? I think? But they introduced my new favorite character (who is not a PoV) who will probably die in a way that makes me angry as a result, but for now I will just enjoy the dude when he gets to be awesome.



Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Margalis on July 15, 2011, 08:36:42 PM
I'm very glad I stopped reading this series.

It's pretty clear that this is going to be another cash-cow that is kept on life support for as long as possible. You know that this series is never going to finish properly.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Ingmar on July 15, 2011, 10:34:25 PM
I'm very glad I stopped reading this series.

It's pretty clear that this is going to be another cash-cow that is kept on life support for as long as possible. You know that this series is never going to finish properly.

He still seems on pace to finish it in 7, which has been his claim for quite a while now.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Threash on July 16, 2011, 11:36:15 AM
I'm very glad I stopped reading this series.

It's pretty clear that this is going to be another cash-cow that is kept on life support for as long as possible. You know that this series is never going to finish properly.

If he wanted a cash cow he would write more than two books in 11 years.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Murgos on July 17, 2011, 05:35:34 AM
I'm very glad I stopped reading this series.

It's pretty clear that this is going to be another cash-cow that is kept on life support for as long as possible. You know that this series is never going to finish properly.

If he wanted a cash cow he would write more than two books in 11 years.

It takes effort to oversee TV Series and Video Game franchises.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Khaldun on July 17, 2011, 04:26:44 PM
In recent interviews. he's suddenly been saying, "It might take eight books". Translated: "My estate is looking into competent ghosts for the last one or two or...however many."

I like "Dance" better than the last one, at any rate.  I do wish he'd either pull the obvious trigger on certain obvious events or fuck with us thoroughly on them and do something completely different. You can tell me The War of the Roses is your template all you like, but once there are dragons and fire priestesses and greenseers and suchlike, those bets are sort of off.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: lamaros on July 17, 2011, 05:41:56 PM
I've read all the first few a couple of times but I have no desire to get the latest one.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Ingmar on July 17, 2011, 06:11:15 PM
So book 5 is where everyone goes Maddox and declares it too popular to like now?


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Merusk on July 17, 2011, 06:16:17 PM
I don't know that I'd go that far.  I think my feelings are summed-up more along the lines of, "it takes too damn long for them to come out to really care about the series anymore."    I just can't get into it, because I know it's going to be another 5-6 years before the next one.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: lamaros on July 17, 2011, 06:28:50 PM
So book 5 is where everyone goes Maddox and declares it too popular to like now?

No, I just feel like it is becoming much less enjoyable for me. More padded, more cliche (more Dany and Jon). My favourite book was actually book 1.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Sky on July 18, 2011, 06:48:09 AM
Sunday a friend mentioned the HBO series and my fiancee was curious because I said it had a lot of royal intrigue and family in-fighting and she loves that crap. Then I got to the stuff about the dragon lady (Dany?) and since it was my least favorite part of the series, it sounded really lame when I tried to explain it. Imo the books would have been way better if he left that part out and really tried to keep the high fantasy stuff out of it and stick to the political and war stuff.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Morat20 on July 18, 2011, 08:04:01 AM
So book 5 is where everyone goes Maddox and declares it too popular to like now?

No, I just feel like it is becoming much less enjoyable for me. More padded, more cliche (more Dany and Jon). My favourite book was actually book 1.
Yeah. I loved the first book or two because it was very anti-cliche. The man seemed to deliberetly set up fantasy cliches in order to curb-stomp them. Plus, he had a fun habit of taking "villians" and giving them their own internal story (and their own POV) and really screwing with the whole hero/villian, good/bad thing.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Khaldun on July 18, 2011, 04:01:15 PM
I thought Book 2-3 were freaking great, and where he really hit the mark of what he was shooting for.  Book 4 should have been, "Ok, winter is here and now shit is DIRE." Instead, well, we're getting a bit close to "Nyaneve twirls her ponytail". 


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Rasix on July 18, 2011, 04:11:55 PM
Not quite there yet, but book 4 and 5 are in "build up to Dumai Wells" territory.   Only about 350 pages into book 5 but it's interesting enough.  A token death or two and some interesting happenings.  It just seems to be moving at a languid pace.  Granted we're not spending 40 pages on Perrin brooding over his abducted wife or Egwene dictating laundry duties, but it all feels like build up.  You know what's going to happen, but it's not happening.  Instead of pulling the trigger and giving us what we want, he's having the build up do interesting things.

This does keep it out of Jordan's pit he found himself in, but it just means that overall less of significance is going to happen and the series will continue to roll on.  It's not going to sputter out or decend into mind numbing boredom, but it's going to continue to move the goal posts farther out.

And yah, I thought 2-3 were fantastic. Better than 1, IMO.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: naum on July 18, 2011, 04:20:31 PM
Not quite there yet, but book 4 and 5 are in "build up to Dumai Wells" territory.   Only about 350 pages into book 5 but it's interesting enough.  A token death or two and some interesting happenings.  It just seems to be moving at a languid pace.  Granted we're not spending 40 pages on Perrin brooding over his abducted wife or Egwene dictating laundry duties, but it all feels like build up.  You know what's going to happen, but it's not happening.  Instead of pulling the trigger and giving us what we want, he's having the build up do interesting things.

This does keep it out of Jordan's pit he found himself in, but it just means that overall less of significance is going to happen and the series will continue to roll on.  It's not going to sputter out or decend into mind numbing boredom, but it's going to continue to move the goal posts farther out.

And yah, I thought 2-3 were fantastic. Better than 1, IMO.

80% of the way completed now in ADWD, 1st half of book was ho-hum, lots of pieces moved about, with little consequence (other than discovery of "what happened" to characters in lieu of previous "cliffhangers"), but in 2nd half, some sparks of plot raveling, engrossing and compelling enough, and I find myself gripped with desiring to finish quickly, to find out what happens…



Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: lamaros on July 18, 2011, 06:13:11 PM
Not quite there yet, but book 4 and 5 are in "build up to Dumai Wells" territory.   Only about 350 pages into book 5 but it's interesting enough.  A token death or two and some interesting happenings.  It just seems to be moving at a languid pace.  Granted we're not spending 40 pages on Perrin brooding over his abducted wife or Egwene dictating laundry duties, but it all feels like build up.  You know what's going to happen, but it's not happening.  Instead of pulling the trigger and giving us what we want, he's having the build up do interesting things.

This does keep it out of Jordan's pit he found himself in, but it just means that overall less of significance is going to happen and the series will continue to roll on.  It's not going to sputter out or decend into mind numbing boredom, but it's going to continue to move the goal posts farther out.

And yah, I thought 2-3 were fantastic. Better than 1, IMO.

Thinking more about it, yeah 2 was probably the best. But 3 not so much for me.



Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Bunk on July 19, 2011, 06:00:34 AM
Not quite there yet, but book 4 and 5 are in "build up to Dumai Wells" territory.   Only about 350 pages into book 5 but it's interesting enough.  A token death or two and some interesting happenings.  It just seems to be moving at a languid pace.  Granted we're not spending 40 pages on Perrin brooding over his abducted wife or Egwene dictating laundry duties, but it all feels like build up.  You know what's going to happen, but it's not happening.  Instead of pulling the trigger and giving us what we want, he's having the build up do interesting things.

This does keep it out of Jordan's pit he found himself in, but it just means that overall less of significance is going to happen and the series will continue to roll on.  It's not going to sputter out or decend into mind numbing boredom, but it's going to continue to move the goal posts farther out.

And yah, I thought 2-3 were fantastic. Better than 1, IMO.

I'm about 300 pages in and I find the main thing I'm doing is flipping back to the maps at the front "ok, these guys are here, but these guys have progressed to this spot..."


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Paelos on July 22, 2011, 06:59:26 AM
I'm 3 chapters into ADWD and I like the snappy dialogue in places. At times I sit there nodding my head with a smirk going, "Ok Martin, that was good."


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Samwise on July 25, 2011, 10:26:31 PM
Finished ADWD last night.

(http://avatarmaker.eu/free-avatars/avatars/cartoons_229/ren_and_stimpy_253/ren_angry_avatar_100x100_37546.jpg)


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Salamok on July 26, 2011, 08:39:31 AM
Finished ADWD last night.

Same here, I'm not sure I can take any more books that hop all over the world to follow yet another character every single chapter.  I'm beginning to think that this is done as a series of cliffhangers gimmick to hide how bad the story really is.  At least he isn't as bad as Jordon and introducing a new plot element (that will never get resolved) in every chapter as well.


Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: Merusk on July 26, 2011, 08:47:35 AM
Finished ADWD last night.

Same here, I'm not sure I can take any more books that hop all over the world to follow yet another character every single chapter.  I'm beginning to think that this is done as a series of cliffhangers gimmick to hide how bad the story really is.  At least he isn't as bad as Jordon and introducing a new plot element (that will never get resolved) in every chapter as well.



Title: Re: Return of the Book Thread
Post by: WayAbvPar on July 26, 2011, 09:19:13 AM
Re- ADWD


Downloaded Ghost Story to my Kindle this morning  :grin: Still need to finish Side Jobs (about halfway through, so I should be able to knock it out today unless work interrupts), and then I get to find out WTF is up with Harry! This has been a good month for nerdy book releases.


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: DLRiley on July 26, 2011, 10:00:47 AM
Finished a ADWD and....

It was worth the preorder but

- John Snow first and foremost is my favorite character and glad what they did with him till the end which depending on spoilers will determine whether i purchase or read book 6.
- The fact that he sends as many people to their deaths as he saves is a fun fact.
- What happened to John when he was about to do some KING OF THE NORTH type shit is.....

-Dany, i hate her yet want to pat her head. no bitch in fiction reminds me of my braty friend from college
-Her point of view is hit and miss, you hate everyone surrounding her now that mormount is gone and you half expecting her to trip, fall, and die because of her stupid.

-tryion, used to be a tryion chapter was what stole the show but now..... ever since his fall from grace the giant of lannister is now a sniveling smart mouth, with very little of his chapters devoted to actual plot...... but it is tryion though the view of him becomes much less than it was back when he was in westerios

--davos onion knight + plot = win

-mess couldn't have fucked john snow

-arya stark kinda pointless

the book as a whole, was a fun read, i'm just afraid that book six the people i hate will still be there, and the people i like will drop like flies.


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: naum on July 26, 2011, 10:34:07 AM
On ADWD:

First half of book was ho-hum, lots of pieces moved about, with little consequence (other than discovery of "what happened" to characters in lieu of previous "cliffhangers"), but in 2nd half, some sparks of plot raveling, engrossing and compelling enough, and I found myself gripped with desiring to finish quickly, to find out what happens -- and whilst there are a few big events that unfurl late in the book, it seemed more like GRRM was setting the stage for book #6.

Which I hope I don't have to wait ~6 years for The Winds of Winter (book #6), like it did for book #5…


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: Samwise on July 26, 2011, 02:38:25 PM
ADWD:



Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: Ingmar on July 26, 2011, 02:39:23 PM
The setup has always struck me as more of 'hot vs. cold' with good and evil on both sides, yeah.


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: lamaros on July 26, 2011, 07:24:23 PM
http://thisrecording.com/today/2011/7/19/in-which-we-taste-the-blood-of-the-dragon.html

Book review.


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: Chimpy on July 28, 2011, 04:27:45 PM
My copy of ADWD is waiting for me at the library. Guess I know how I am spending my saturday!


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: pants on July 28, 2011, 07:15:28 PM
http://thisrecording.com/today/2011/7/19/in-which-we-taste-the-blood-of-the-dragon.html

Book review.

Uhm, what the hell was that about?  That was the weirdest review of anything I've read in a long time.


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: Khaldun on July 29, 2011, 04:00:12 AM
But hilarious.


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: Rasix on July 29, 2011, 11:33:14 AM
ADWD:



That image sums up my thoughts.  It's been 3 days since I've finished with the book, but I'm still not sure what to think. 

It was a fun ride.  It moves along at a good pace and stuff happens.  It's not Jordanesque padding that goes nowhere, but he did have a few chapters that felt pointless.  But man, there was a lot of kicking the can down the road to avoid doing anything monumental.  Even the biggest things that happened, didn't really change much. 


I enjoyed it, but gah.  I'm done pining for this series.  When the next book comes out, I'll be happy and read it.  Until then, I don't care anymore.


Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: Ingmar on July 29, 2011, 11:37:13 AM
Should we have a separate thread for ADWD spoilers?  :why_so_serious:



Title: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread
Post by: DLRiley on July 29, 2011, 12:51:12 PM
Probably.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Samwise on July 29, 2011, 01:40:31 PM
All right, new thread, and I'm declaring it free game for spoilers since you can't very well talk about the books without spoiling the fuck out of them.

I'm intrigued by the notion that Jon might take over the body of one of his killers, maybe unbeknownst to us until he pops up in book 7 saying "SURPRISE, BITCHES," but I got the impression that it was really hard to do that trick.  Seems more likely that he just ends up inside Ghost, which is kinda nice but doesn't leave him in a great position to contribute to the story.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sjofn on July 29, 2011, 02:18:12 PM
I said it before, I'll say it again:

I am sick of Jon. I almost hope he died and stays dead (but he has potential to become interesting again away from the Wall, so I don't completely hope it :P). The Wall and the Others? I don't give a shit. Straight up. Most boring fucking zombie apocalypse ever.

Davos is <3 though. And Manderly is double <3.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: naum on July 29, 2011, 02:19:48 PM
Is Jon dead? Does Melisandre cast some magic to rescue him…?

Puzzled about the closing scene with Daenerys and Khal Jhaqo…

I liked the latter chapters with Barristan the Bold (I like Strong Belwas too) when Daenerys departed on her dragon…

Has Stannis & army really been destroyed?

The chapter(s) with Jaime seemed out of place.

GRRM succeeded in making the Boltons more depraved and reprehensible than the Lannisters…


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Soln on July 29, 2011, 02:22:58 PM
Just came from an hour long speak and signing event by GRRM.  Lovely man.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on July 29, 2011, 02:24:24 PM
I said it before, I'll say it again:

I am sick of Jon. I almost hope he died stays dead (but he has potential to become interesting again away from the Wall, so I don't completely hope it :P). The Wall and the Others? I don't give a shit. Straight up. Most boring fucking zombie apocalypse ever.

Davos is <3 though. And Manderly is double <3.

Surprised that Lord "too fat to sit astride his horse" survived that triple chin-ectomy.  Still, his scenes with Davos and with the Bolton/Frey host were great.  

I liked Jon a lot prior to this, but in this book he was just being man-Stark dumb.  Some times you have to play politics and not always do the right thing by your own conscience, and that's ALL HE DID.  Until the end, but that was interupted with knives.

Ohh yah, the warg stuff.  He'll manage to be less interesting in another body or in a wolf, especially in the wolf.  Outside of his own body, he's not even a Targaryen.

edit: Naum, your avatar is really creepy.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on July 29, 2011, 02:35:29 PM
Ser Bruce time.

Is Jon dead? Does Melisandre cast some magic to rescue him…?

Now that others mentioned the warg bit, I'd bet on that first.  I'd prefer the R'hllor option.  Jon as not-Jon would be retarded.

Quote
Puzzled about the closing scene with Daenerys and Khal Jhaqo…

I assume they're going to have her win back the Dothraki? I don't know.  Her angle went in directions different that I would have chosen, but I'm guessing he has a plan.  Maybe this is her "to go forward, you must go back" moment.

Quote
I liked the latter chapters with Barristan the Bold (I like Strong Belwas too) when Daenerys departed on her dragon…

I would love to see a Stong Belwas POV chapter.

Quote
Has Stannis & army really been destroyed?

I'm guessing ruse.  But perhaps this gets Melisandre to realize that Stannis isn't Azor Ahai and point her toward Dany.

Quote
GRRM succeeded in making the Boltons more depraved and reprehensible than the Lannisters…

They're perhaps the true mustache twirlers in the series now that Gregor is a zombie.  Well, Euron, I guess too doesn't seem to have any good side to him at all.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on July 29, 2011, 02:46:12 PM
WHAT THE SHIT?

I have not read the book yet, why am I the spoiler thread author?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sjofn on July 29, 2011, 02:48:38 PM
Surprised that Lord "too fat to sit astride his horse" survived that triple chin-ectomy.  Still, his scenes with Davos and with the Bolton/Frey host were great.  

I liked Jon a lot prior to this, but in this book he was just being man-Stark dumb.  Some times you have to play politics and not always do the right thing by your own conscience, and that's ALL HE DID.  Until the end, but that was interupted with knives.

I was totally all "NO DON'T YOU FUCKING KILL MANDERLY YOU FUCKER oh phew I don't have to firebomb your house after all" during that part.  :grin:  And I have to agree with you on Jon being man-Stark dumb. Not quite up to the level of Robb dumb (still, STILL facepalming over that), but damn dude.

I am pretty sure Stannis & company are still alive (well, as alive as they can be in the shitty position they were in), just because the letter demanded the return of Theon and Fake Arya. At the same time, the Mance stuff rang true to me, so ... eh. We'll see. Generally the off screen "deaths" are the most likely to not be dead. Stannis seems like an on-screen death either way. He'll probably get burned to death.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: naum on July 29, 2011, 02:50:03 PM
I reckon we'll discover the answers to these questions in 2017…


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on July 29, 2011, 02:51:35 PM
I'm guessing ruse.  But perhaps this gets Melisandre to realize that Stannis isn't Azor Ahai and point her toward Dany.

Worth noting that in the Melisandre POV chapter, she thinks about trying to see Stannis-as-Azor-Ahai but just keeps getting Jon instead, which could be taken as an indication that Jon is the dude.

On the Stannis army being dead thing, it seems sort of unlikely given the warning about Karstark from the Iron Bank of Braavos dude seems to have arrived in time, and the fact that Ramsay mentions wanting Reek back but Theon was with Stannis's army last we saw them, if I'm remembering correctly.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on July 29, 2011, 02:56:28 PM
Ahh, yes, him wanting Reek and Jeyne back would indicate bullshit.  But yah, Mance is probably not in a happy place right now.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Soln on July 29, 2011, 06:51:11 PM
I reckon we'll discover the answers to these questions in 2017…

he said today either he has "a couple of hundred" or a "a hundred" pages of Book 6 already written and finalized.  They are sections from Book 6 he didn't include.  


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on July 29, 2011, 07:19:05 PM
Probably of missing POVs - Sansa, Samwell, Brienne? There's also the matter of the last guy who was headed off to find Daenrys, the mage maester guy, we heard about everyone else who was headed east.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on July 30, 2011, 05:58:01 AM
The reason I see Jon being Rh'ellor'd is that if he's dead they're not going to just let Ghost wander around live.  Ghost scares the fuck out of people - he's a dead wolf.   Plus, the Warg thing at death takes a conscious effort, you saw it with the wildling guy. It also apparently has a range or requires line of sight since he'd planned on taking over the spearwife because he couldn't see his pack as he was starving.

That's all assuming Jon's dead, though.  Let's face it unless we see a body, GMM has done enough "blacking out" chapter ends that we should know he's not dead by now. Asha and Tyrion alone in this book did the same nonsense.  Theon had a similar "ending" and we thought The Hound was dead, too.

I'm also convinced Coldhands is Benjen Stark, but I'd been convinced of that since we first saw him.

The letter from The Bastard was totally Melisandre. It arrived too soon and pushed Jon in a direction she wanted using secrets only she would know. Plus, as was mentioned, the Iron Banker of Braavos gave them enough warning.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: DLRiley on July 30, 2011, 06:18:59 AM
I can see Jon being dead due to multiple knife wounds to the chest.... but err we had people come back from that right? Right? I can see a reason for Jon being dead, if only for a little while. Jon is the only one holding up the juggling act of thousands of armed wildlings, night watchmen, and queens men, all sitting under the same roof under the wall. The wildlings won't trust the night watch after what they did to Jon, the insuring masacre will probably forfill the "the wall is only as good as there is sworn brothers to protect it" requirement that keeps all manner of dead things and night walkers out.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 01, 2011, 01:10:26 AM
At this point I hope he kills everyone except Arya & Tyrion, just so their chapter numbers go up.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Wasted on August 01, 2011, 02:52:20 AM
I came late the party, ordering the 4 book set whilst the series was playing so I had only finished the fourth to be able to jump right into the fifth.

I think I was getting a little fatigued by the time I was reading this but some things annoyed me in ADWD

I hated Dany not moving anywhere.  I want her to get to Westeros and sitting in Meereen pretty much the whole book was frustrating.  Her meeting Khal Jhoqo whilst the dragon eats the horse bodes well for her getting new allies and revitilising herself (I hope).

As much fun as Tyrion is I don't like him as much when he is stumbling from one captor to another.  He is much better when he has some power.

Jon was pretty cool imho though.  As telegraphed as it was in hindsight it still came as a shock to me at the end.  I too think he will get his kiss of fire.

Theon still being alive wasn't a surprise to me, his ending at Winterfell felt very deliberately ambiguous to me.  I was almost starting to feel sypathetic to him, as much as I hated him in Book 3.

I also agree Manderly is awesome, I also like Tormund, and the Kindly Man.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on August 03, 2011, 04:09:09 PM
Somewhere around 55% the book gets a lot easier to read. It's curious how much the "eastern continent" has become more important than Westeros. I hope that by about 30% of the next one, no one of any importance is left in the eastern continent. (I'm guessing that most of Dany's loyalists are heading for a bad end).

Tyrion is a classic picaresque character. As such he should be having more fun than he has been--that kind of character can fall into a dire situation for a bit, but they should bear it lightly.

I do wonder about Stannis.

I'm sick of Zen killer bullshit (re: Many Faces assholes). I'm cool if assassins want to say, "Look, detachment makes you a better killer", I'm bored by assassins who say, "Don't want to kill anyone until our god/fate/whateverthefuck says so." It's a boring trope.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on August 03, 2011, 04:14:50 PM
It's not that the eastern continent has become more important, only that it was omitted from the last book.  Remember 4 & 5 have the same timeline until about the time you see Jaime. 


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on August 03, 2011, 04:27:55 PM
No, I don't think it's just that. Let's imagine 4 & 5 as one mega-book: in that book, the story emphasis has still switched markedly to places other than Westeros (including Braavosi). With tons of details about those places. Some of those details tell us a lot more about what happened to Westeros characters after Robert's rebellion, or about how the two continents are more entangled than either lets on.

But I'm still REALLY struck at how NO ONE on the eastern continent is even slightly worried about the coming of winter even though they share some of the same latitude. (E.g., this is not equatorial Africa vs. Scandinavia). The Dothraki, for example, should be talking about winter a lot, if they're pastoralists who wander over the interior of Asia Essos.

But it's only the Westerosi who worry about it. This is weird. Seriously, I don't quite understand why people haven't just abandoned the place to its fate. In fact, this is a BIG fucking problem with Martin's whole world-building. He wants to say, "Look, this is medieval times, so I'm justified in the raping and violence because that's realistic." Ok, so it is. But then this should be a world that's much more uninhabited than his world seems to be. Even in human societies that have really big fertile-period population booms (like the Sahel in Africa) you don't have this kind of relative population density in flush times. He doesn't seem to me to have really thought through, "What would a world where there's VERY long seasons plus magical bullshit wintermonsters really look like in terms of where people live and and so on." If there are really parts of his world that winter is no big fucking deal for, head for them. Like humanity did on our actual world--living in Western Europe during the Ice Age was for tough motherfucker bastards and there were VERY few Neanderthals because of it. (Part of the newest theory about why they got swept aside, in fact.)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on August 03, 2011, 04:43:09 PM
I've always figured he just didn't plan that out very well.  As you say, it's a weakness in the world.  It's a giant fucking plot hole, actually, and the only real explanation would seem to be "A wizard did it!"

Hell, even Jordan had trollocs & stuff in Seanchan. They were just wiped out (until recently...)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on August 03, 2011, 05:32:34 PM
He's not a very good writer in many senses, one of which is his 'world building', and it has become more and more noticeable as the series has grown and expanded outside his original loose plans.

He is more of a character and 'event' (I won't call it 'plot', as he seems to focus on things one at a time rather than as a cohesive and comprehensible whole) writer than anything else. Supposedly he got a writing 'epiphany' after being a D&D master (related this in one of the Wild Card's book intros), he worked in TV, etc.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: naum on August 03, 2011, 08:28:21 PM
I am puzzled about the "seasons" thing in general -- how a "season" spans many years -- how is that possible in a medieval (or pre-medieval, it strikes me) setting?

If GRRM explains it, I forgot, and that is possible as it's been a few years since I read books 1-4.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Samwise on August 04, 2011, 12:24:05 AM
Yeah, I was wondering recently how they have a concept of a "year" that's shorter than a "season".  My best guess is that a year is some arbitrary number of lunar cycles (or larger arbitrary number of days), because nothing else makes any sense.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Salamok on August 04, 2011, 01:18:36 AM
hmmm I just felt they have normal non-mystical seasons which combine with the big deity involved mega seasons brought on by the comet.  He never really addresses it head on. 

The Eastern/Valeria continent is R'hllor's main stomping ground, North of the wall is the Other's and the west south of the wall is the contested area, mega-winter won't hit the East unless R'hllor loses some serious ground.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on August 04, 2011, 04:09:18 AM
He never explains it.  He's only recently even begun commenting on food stores and starvation.  Consider how hard a time they've had feeding people even now, in the beginning of 'winter' without it being full-on.  Imagine shit after just 6 months, never mind 2-3 years of it.

It really makes no sense.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on August 04, 2011, 06:01:07 AM
Pretty much, yeah. Imagine having to put food away for 3 years. Pretty much wouldn't everybody in Westeros be, "Well, we're fucked", at this point? Everyone accepts that the winter is going to be long, it's not one of those things where people doubt or disbelieve that it's going to be long, like with the Long Interval in the first Anne McCaffrey Pern book. Yeah, I know a lot of people are talking about how it's bad, but honestly, not enough and not thoroughly--it just doesn't seem like this is a society with the necessary adaptations to make survival through three years of winter possible. How do animals survive? No mammal can eat enough or put on enough weight to hibernate for three years, and it's very clear that in most of Westeros there's going to be no forage. Birds I guess could migrate.

Has Martin said anything explicitly about the "one continent belongs to this god, the other to another"? Because if that's genuinely true, again, why the fuck would anyone live in Westeros? What's so nice about it that it compensates for occasionally having winters that are 3 years long where almost inevitably most of the people and animals living there die? Not to mention the threat of having supernatural monsters and zombies killing everything in sight. Westeros should be the fucking ass-end of the world with a few miserable assholes living there who sometimes go off Viking-style and rip up the warm, comfortable fatcats on the other side of the Narrow Sea. I can buy the ironmen and such, just not the supposed wealth and power and population density of the Lannisters, Tullys and Tyrells. How is any of that even possible if they're sometimes dealing with winters that last one, two or three years unless they have some kind of magic that explains it?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Salamok on August 04, 2011, 07:03:40 AM
Has Martin said anything explicitly about the "one continent belongs to this god, the other to another"?
No, that is just my feeling.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on August 04, 2011, 09:02:28 AM
I don't think there's been one of these "long winters" in a while, so no one alive remembers the last one and thus, they don't give a shit. Only the people on the Wall have actually seen the undead; the rest of Westeros dismisses them as fairy tales. As for how they actually survive these long winters, no fucking idea. But it never bothered me that no one is taking it seriously because that seems to mirror real life pretty well.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 04, 2011, 09:41:01 AM
My take on it.  The winter is only really bad in the north, so they can ship food in from the south when shit catches them unawares, population on coast more likely to survive.  The reason the long winters are remembered are because so many people die, despite preparations, but it's been so long nobody is prepared and what little preparation they had has been upset by the War.

I found the focus on cannibalism interesting and I'd expect to see a lot more along those lines, I recently read Bloodlands (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/oct/09/bloodlands-stalin-timothy-snyder-review) and some of the story elements were very similar to what actually happened in the Ukraine.

My problem with the story goes deeper, I just think he's not going to tie it all together and he's more interested in new viewpoints or boring viewpoints (Cersei for gods sake why?) than writing the characters I actually like.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on August 04, 2011, 02:55:14 PM
Yeah. I know everyone likes to rag on the viewpoint characters, but it's really a bad weakness to keep diffusing the character focus. There is no reason why Barristan Selmy should not be a character whose actions are well-described by someone ELSE's perception. Someone who is a good foil for him, like Tyrion. It feels like Martin is getting bored with his characters and if he's bored, so are we. If he needs the plot to supercede the characters, then don't write a book that's told through viewpoint characters. He's an experienced enough fiction writer to know that.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sjofn on August 04, 2011, 03:24:50 PM
I don't think there's been one of these "long winters" in a while, so no one alive remembers the last one and thus, they don't give a shit. Only the people on the Wall have actually seen the undead; the rest of Westeros dismisses them as fairy tales. As for how they actually survive these long winters, no fucking idea. But it never bothered me that no one is taking it seriously because that seems to mirror real life pretty well.

This has been my impression as well, that Winter-with-a-big-W hasn't happened in a long, long time, thus most people are idiots about it.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on August 04, 2011, 03:40:08 PM
I think I'm correct in saying there's been some variation in the length of the winters over the past few hundreds of years.  But if you take "Winter is coming" to refer to a significant event then the last example would possibly be The Long Night (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Long_Night#War_for_the_Dawn)
Quote
The Long Night is the name given to a period in history where a terrible darkness fell across Westeros and the east. It occurred approximately eight thousand years before Aegon's Landing, in the midst of a great winter that lasted for years. The Long Night lasted a generation and laid waste to much of the world through famine and terror.

Assuming the ending isn't some BSG crap, you'd expect the series to end on an up note at the start of Spring.  Due to the length of time that would involve, I expect the coming of the Others actually makes Winter last longer and their defeat ends the Long Night II.

Edit to add, that's logically how I'd do it, though we might get two books following the life of some wagon maker in Dorne and his annoying neighbour instead.

Double Edit because the last book pissed me off so much I blocked most of it out and I'm thinking about it now, he should stop the sex stuff, some of the recent book was downright creepy, he's on safer ground with cannibalism.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on August 04, 2011, 05:26:04 PM
The sex stuff has always been creepy, especially from female characters. It reads like bad erotic fiction and make me embarrassed to be reading his novels.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on August 04, 2011, 05:41:18 PM
There's good erotic fiction? Lies.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on August 04, 2011, 05:43:11 PM
I think whether or not you find the sex stuff creepy/embarrassing has more to do with you than it does with the writing. (I do certainly make sure nobody might read over my shoulder during those parts, personally.)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on August 04, 2011, 05:53:18 PM
There's not really good erotic fiction, no, but there is good writing about sex.

I find Martin's attempts to be boring, cliche, and/or misogynistic though. I feel more embarassed reading his stuff than, say, the sex in The Line of Beauty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line_of_Beauty) (not that I remember it being especially well written there, just that I remember it being 'not complete crap').


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on August 04, 2011, 06:16:00 PM
Misogynistic I'll give you.  Particularly how Dany can't feel whole without a man.  :awesome_for_real:

Other than that it just reads like most other erotica I've seen. Including Anne Rice's "Beauty" series.. (Well, minus the bondage..)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Quinton on August 04, 2011, 09:52:10 PM
Yeah. I know everyone likes to rag on the viewpoint characters, but it's really a bad weakness to keep diffusing the character focus. There is no reason why Barristan Selmy should not be a character whose actions are well-described by someone ELSE's perception. Someone who is a good foil for him, like Tyrion. It feels like Martin is getting bored with his characters and if he's bored, so are we. If he needs the plot to supercede the characters, then don't write a book that's told through viewpoint characters. He's an experienced enough fiction writer to know that.

I liked that there were characters we only see through the eyes of others.  I don't mind the occasional "whoah X is now a viewpoint and we can get inside their head" thing, but I do think Martin's gone a bit overboard on it and the number of viewpoint characters is rather excessive now.  Also, you don't necessarily have to get inside a character's head to show that what other characters thought about them may have been incorrect or incomplete.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on August 05, 2011, 07:31:09 AM
Exactly. All you need is several viewpoint characters dealing with the same person.

I sure as hell hope he has enough remnant sense as a writer not to try and viewpoint Varys: the mystery of his motivations (even now) is crucial to whatever tension is left in the story.

Martin's repeated line on the sexual content (and violence) is that this is a story derived from medieval Europe and that moderns who haven't read up on medieval Europe aren't really very aware of how violent (sexually and otherwise) medieval Europe was.

I buy that up to a point. Since he's using the War of the Roses and the Thirty Years' War as templates, there's definitely something to it. Some of the things that marauding knights or nobility did to towns or villages actually outdo Martin's violence by a good margin. I was just reading a biography of the Renaissance philosopher Montaigne and one chapter deals with the French civil wars between Protestants and the Catholic state, and there was some remarkably hardcore stuff. One thing that stuck with me is a noble send to pacify one part of southern France who routinely just came into a village, looked around to see if he thought people were Protestant, and then had the whole village killed. He had one of his oldest comrades-in-arms killed, a guy he fought alongside a bunch of times when they were young, because he thought the guy might be a Protestant.

There were also disastrous famines, plagues (not just the Black Death) and so on, with a lot of the horrible consequences you might expect. Though on the other hand, there were things that I'm surprised haven't shown up in Martin, like peasant rebellions and apocalyptic cults. And honestly, if winter is what he's setting it up to be, all of that has to stop dead in the next book. Nobody's going nowhere from this point on. In Northern Europe during the Little Ice Age, you didn't travel in winter whether you were a noble or a peasant, and armies in particular sure as shit didn't go anywhere. That certainly seems to be what happened to Stannis, but by that same standard, Bolton should be just as dead stuck in Winterfell with few supplies.

But the rape? I really think here he's stuck in a cycle of trying to top himself with sexualized gross-outs and justifying them as "medieval". Medieval armies didn't hesitate to use rape to terrorize peasantries and town bourgeois, there was the "droit de seigneur", and there were knights who famously had bizarro fetishes (Malory's Morte d'Arthur very poitely and discreetly describes a bad knight who liked to capture other knights, strip them nude and beat them with nettles). But there's still something about Martin's language, obsessiveness and so on that's squicky and using the 'medieval' as an alibi. It's even worse when he tries to do viewpoint depictions of female sexual desire, like Asha or Dany.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on August 05, 2011, 09:19:42 AM
We're not arguing about the quantity.  It's the quality and the psychology.

i.e. Whenever sex is involved the woman is either a whore, a manipulator using sex for power or some variant of Dany's "ooh a man, make me a real woman! tra la la" bits.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on August 05, 2011, 09:22:57 AM
Next book is going to feature some really awkward/odd/aggressive/creepy sex if Circe manages to get Taena back to court.   Gal's head is not in the right place, it could get a bit weird.

Plus, Sansa.  Yah, you know that'll happen.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on August 05, 2011, 01:39:26 PM
I'm not sure what would be creepier: Sansa/Robert Arryn, or Sansa/Littlefinger.  :pedobear:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: WayAbvPar on August 05, 2011, 02:45:36 PM
I'm not sure what would be creepier: Sansa/Robert Arryn, or Sansa/Littlefinger.  :pedobear:

Robert Arryn and his snotty nose by far. LF is just the average teeny-groper; SweetRobin is disgusting on his own, and adding sex in wouldn't help at ALL.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sjofn on August 05, 2011, 02:47:53 PM
We're not arguing about the quantity.  It's the quality and the psychology.

i.e. Whenever sex is involved the woman is either a whore, a manipulator using sex for power or some variant of Dany's "ooh a man, make me a real woman! tra la la" bits.

Thing is, it mostly makes sense for the feel of the world he's going for. Women are not the equals of men for the most part, so yes, most of the women having sex with a dude are going to come under those three categories. Although I didn't really feel like Dany's scenes (in this book, anyway) were "ooh, make me a real woman!" but "you are hot and I want to fuck your brains out, and I am obsessing over it because I am still a teenager."

Even so, Asha's sex scene was her having sex with a man she cared about, and having a good time with it. <shrug>


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on September 02, 2011, 11:02:14 AM
Hi, I'm late to the party.

Just finished the book.  ARG.

Kind of torn.  I overall still enjoyed it, but there was a lot that annoyed me.  

Plot progression definitely slowed to a god damn crawl this book, compared to the rest (and I just reread the entire series before picking this one up), and I'm not a fan of what he's done with several characters.  Dany's chapters were boring and a waste of time, which sucks since she's been one of my favorite characters from the start.  I mean, when we last left off in book 3, every time we cut back to her she would conquer a new city, or win a new battle, in some awesome manner.  In this book, she sat in her city and whined about not being able to do anything as her enemies surrounded her.  Which they did, with nothing happening for the whole damn book until the dragon scene.  I was really looking forward to seeing what awesomeness she would be up to next in this book, and absolutely nothing happened.

Tyrion went from being awesome fun to read, to me hoping he would die every chapter.  His reaction to his brother at the end of book 3 and this book paints him as a total d-bag.  So his asshole father forced Jaime to lie about his woman/wife, so you fucking blame him and vow to kill him as if its his fault?  His father forced all of them to do what he wanted!  Arg.  He spent the whole fucking book whining about her (despite the fact realistically there is almost no way she actually loved his ugly ass.  I vastly prefer it to be that she really was a whore hired by Jaime).  And then they introduce a fucking female dwarf.  If he wanted a shock ending, they should have killed him instead.

Speaking of which, of course he has to kill one of the only characters left I enjoy (that’s a main character at least).  Hopefully he realizes Snow is to important to kill, since there’s almost no story left worth talking about with him gone.  

What I hope will happen:  John rez’ed by light god, free to kick ass and take names without restriction of vows, the letter from Bolton was just a ploy by red lady to stop him from ranging north, Stannis and the gang is still kicking, North unites with awesome cleverness from Lard Lord to kill all Boltons and Freys.

What I’m afraid will happen (which means GRRM will do it):  John wargs himself into Ghost and runs around being a horribly annoying POV character/thing, Stannis really was wiped out by Bolton (Theon/Ashas/Jeyene all probably left with the Iron Bank envoy when defeat looked inevitable), we get a whole lot more of boring ass Bastard of Bolton being over the top evil and nothing happening in the north.

Having said all that, I still mainly enjoyed the book (well, till the end) and several of the other characters with fewer chapters were still fun.  Arya continues the path to be a total bad ass.  Enjoyed her chapters, and I really like the whole lore and background behind the faceless men.  Looking forward to her in the next book (which means she’ll die).  Onion knights stuff was good, and I continue to like his character (wish we had gotten some more chapters for him after he was sent off however).  Barristian makes a good POV character as well, though not really needed.

I also concur that Lard Lord Manderly is awesome.  I hope they don’t kill him.  I really want to see him fuck over the Boltons to death somehow.  But still, the fact that he killed several important Freys and then fed them to everybody at the wedding was spectacular.

Also, why are you guys questioning that Cold Hands is Benjen stark?  He comes right out and says it in the book.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: WayAbvPar on September 02, 2011, 11:22:09 AM
Quote
Also, why are you guys questioning that Cold Hands is Benjen stark?  He comes right out and says it in the book.

Can you quote the passage you are talking about? I certainly missed it if it is explicitly said.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on September 02, 2011, 11:25:23 AM
It is not ever explicit.

Shit, none of the background stuff is ever explicit.

Also, I am pretty sure after reading this book that Martin jumped the shark a while back and has begun going into a full-on RobertJordanian "just keep writing" death spiral. Only instead of introducing more boring plot lines with the same characters and never killing anyone off, he is killing everyone off and introducing new characters by the bucketload.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on September 02, 2011, 11:37:58 AM
Quote
Also, why are you guys questioning that Cold Hands is Benjen stark?  He comes right out and says it in the book.

Can you quote the passage you are talking about? I certainly missed it if it is explicitly said.
Hmm, sorry, I just went back and reread.  It was this passage that I thought said it:

“A monster,” Bran said.
The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. “Your monster, Brandon Stark.”
“Yours,” the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer’s song of “Yours, yours, yours.”

For some reason I read that as him saying Benjen Stark, probably because there has been heavy foreshadowing ever since book 1 that it would be him (in book 1, Bran is told the story of a hero who journeyed beyond the wall for years, and survived by being rescued by the children of the woods.  Bran then asks if they thought that's where his uncle Benjen went then, to get help from the Children of the Woods, and was down with them.  And now coldhands shows up working with the children...).  And also because it was pretty late at night when I was reading that, heh.

So, my bad.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 02, 2011, 12:36:32 PM
Jon is gonna be a wolf, at least for a while.  Otherwise there would be no point to the prologue that basically goes out of its way to remind you what happens when skinchangers die.  I doubt he will stay that way though, during one of Melisandres chapters at one point she thinks "i keep asking R'hllor to show me Azhor Azzai and all he shows me is Jon Snow".


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on September 02, 2011, 12:40:40 PM
Jon is gonna be a wolf, at least for a while.  Otherwise there would be no point to the prologue that basically goes out of its way to remind you what happens when skinchangers die.  I doubt he will stay that way though, during one of Melisandres chapters at one point she thinks "i keep asking R'hllor to show me Azhor Azzai and all he shows me is Jon Snow".

Yeah, which doesn't really say much for Melisandre's deductive abilities.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 02, 2011, 12:42:18 PM
I like that actually.  She is continuously shown what is going to happen and she keeps screwing up the interpretation of it.  Still, when someone who can obviously see the future tells you to watch out for daggers in the dark you keep a god damned body guard, even she mistook one girl for another.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: WayAbvPar on September 02, 2011, 12:46:22 PM
I like that actually.  She is continuously shown what is going to happen and she keeps screwing up the interpretation of it.  Still, when someone who can obviously see the future tells you to watch out for daggers in the dark you keep a god damned body guard, even she mistook one girl for another.

I think that is why I was so glad to get a POV from her- it really took the mystery and BS away from here and showed her to be just as human and fallible as everyone else, which makes her interesting and not annoying like she was before.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Draegan on September 02, 2011, 12:54:29 PM
I finished this on wednesday and I agree with a lot of what Teleku said.

Tyrion was still the same awesome I thought, but it was all travel scenes.  Kind of annoying until the end where he signed up with the Second Sons.

Daenerys was irritating because it was all about her doing nothing, wanting to fuck Daario, and doing shit in a non-badass way.  She got lost in her savageness. As she kept her dragons penned up she lost the "Blood of the Dragon" attitude.  She's going back to the beginning now and I think she'll be back as a badass raining fire down upon her enemies.

I love the whole political battle of King's Landing from AFFC and liked seeing that plot line moved on.

The whole Bolton plot line was boring and irritating.

The Wall plot lines were pretty stale, but moved a bit.  Everyone here has already said what will happen to Jon.  GRRM needs to get his character out into the world a bit I think.

The whole Quentyn/Dorne plot was interesting but I'm glad he's dead.  I fell asleep a few times during his chapters.

Looking forward to more Jamie/Brienne.

They need to clean up the whole Asha/Theon plotline, consolidate the eastern continent.  Bring everyone to the Western continent.



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 02, 2011, 12:59:25 PM
I thought the Bolton/North stuff was the best part of the books.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on September 02, 2011, 01:10:43 PM
I liked the north political stuff overall.  So seeing what was going on in Winterfell and Stannis's army was cool.  It was neat to finally get some decent insight into the lords and political situation of the north, which never felt as fleshed out as the rest of the realm, despite it being half the damn realm.  What I hated specifically is Ramsey Bolton.  The character is just so god damn over the top cruel and shallow its annoying having him around.  I wish it was just Roose, who is a much cooler villain.  I'm really hoping that Ramsey pisses off his Dad somehow and finally has the bastard flayed.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Draegan on September 02, 2011, 01:31:43 PM
What I hated specifically is Ramsey Bolton.  The character is just so god damn over the top cruel and shallow its annoying having him around.  I wish it was just Roose, who is a much cooler villain.  I'm really hoping that Ramsey pisses off his Dad somehow and finally has the bastard flayed.

This is what I hated.  Which was a ton of the Reek chapters.  Or all of them.  Roose was a badass guy that I enjoyed reading about.

The wall/Stannis stuff was good.

Actually, everything with Theon was retarded.

I did like how Bran talked to him through the trees.  That was kinda cool.  Needed more Bran.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 02, 2011, 02:11:23 PM
What was Bowen Marsh hoping to accomplish anyways? The nightwatch is outnumbered a few hundred to a few thousand by now and the wildlings aren't just going to march back over the wall just because Jon got Ceasered.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on September 02, 2011, 02:47:32 PM
My thought was that the whole, "Onward, to Winterfell!" was just a bridge too far.  Everything else could be hung on defending the realm form a bigger threat, even if they disagreed with it.  The moment John decided to get involved in the political struggle directly by deliberately breaking his oath, the rest of the brothers couldn't take anymore.

Needed more Bran.

Bran does get things moving.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: murdoc on September 02, 2011, 03:34:54 PM
I also concur that Lard Lord Manderly is awesome.  I hope they don’t kill him.  I really want to see him fuck over the Boltons to death somehow.  But still, the fact that he killed several important Freys and then fed them to everybody at the wedding was spectacular.

Wow, it totally went over my head that he did that. I'll have to reread those chapters. That IS pretty badass.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 02, 2011, 03:39:29 PM
The best part is that he enjoyed eating them as much as everyone else.  Then got drunk and requested the song of the Rat King.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Cheddar on September 02, 2011, 03:43:24 PM
Finished the series a couple weeks ago.

Book 5 pissed me off, what with Dany's wedding. 


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sjofn on September 02, 2011, 04:42:41 PM
I find it surprising anyone gave a shit about Dany ever, really. I have always found her chapters annoying and meandering and while I understand why it's important she exist, important she be a PoV, I hated her chapters almost universally. Until this book, for some reason. YES, I would've prefered she get moving or whatever, but seeing her actually struggle with being a ruler, seeing her be more than a hot mary sue who's totally going to ride in with DRAGONS and KICK EVERYONE'S ASS and then EVERYTHING WILL BE AWESOME because for some reason it's good the CRAZY INBRED ROYAL LINE get back in power was definitely an improvement in my eyes.

But then, I also found the shit with the Wall and Jon Snow horrifically boring and was glad Jon got stabbed, however red herring-y not-really-dead that winds up being.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ruvaldt on September 02, 2011, 06:16:20 PM
I agree, Sjofn.  I never liked Dany's chapters before, but in this book they actually hooked me.  I found myself looking forward to her chapters as time went on, and I've never felt that way before.

Like many others, I thought Davos and Barristan's chapters were the highlights of the book.  Tyrion's chapters were a disappointment; Martin seems to have descended into caricature there.  He'd better have something spectacularly awesome planned after all of that nonsense.

I liked the book.  Looking forward to more, but I sure hope he doesn't go all wargy with Jon.  I didn't enjoy his chapters in this book, and if he goes in that direction I'll like his chapters in the next book even less.  It's a shame too because his stuff with the wildlings was a highlight of books 2 and 3.  Does anyone else find the wolf stuff tedious?  I've honestly never cared for it, regardless of the characters it involves.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 02, 2011, 06:32:01 PM
Apparently "the battle of ice" and "the battle of fire" were supposed to be in this book but got pushed back to the next.  No wonder it seems like nothing happened.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 04, 2011, 08:50:16 AM
Was Theon castrated? they seemed to imply it several times but i'm not convinced.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on September 04, 2011, 10:30:49 AM
I never got that.  He'd have moaned about it more than his fingers, considering he was fucking anything that he could get his hands on.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ruvaldt on September 04, 2011, 12:19:22 PM
I do remember it being implied, but I can't remember where exactly.  I've lent out my copy or I'd look it up.

Edit: I did a little looking in an ASoIF forum and found a quote that pointed me in that direction.

Quote
Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me."
For a moment he did not understand. "I... do you mean... m'lord, I have no... I..."
"With your mouth," Lord Ramsay said. (p. 499)

And then Ramsay Bolton descended further into cartoonish super-villainy.  Theon also mentions losing "that other thing" in an earlier chapter.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: DLRiley on September 04, 2011, 12:37:07 PM
I think impotent is probably the word. Though he could have had some skin removed from off the top.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on September 04, 2011, 03:28:55 PM
Finished it yesterday.

Parts that I liked: Jon's stuff didn't bother me at all, and I liked the interplay in the north between Stannis and the Watch trying to balance out not taking a part. Yall seem to take a fairly dim view of it, but I think it's very true for anybody who has ever tried to lead in a situation where you have extremely limited resources and almost no real help.

I like Arya's stuff, although it was too brief. This was the first time as a character she didn't annoy the hell out of me by not doing anything. She is moving in a direction, and there will be blood.

Tyrion's stuff. He's still smart-assed trying to escape all kinds of different obstacles, but the "where whores go" stuff was really contrived. Tyrion wouldn't give a shit what his father's dying words were. The fact he spends so much time dwelling on it makes no sense. Adding another dwarf doesn't bother me, but I don't love it either. The detail about keeping the pipes of Casterly Rock flowing was brilliant.

What I didn't like: Dany's plotline, as stated, changes total direction as she just whines and whines and whines. Several offers come up for her to just GTFO and leave but she doesn't. You are running a country, just walk away. Why she gives a damn about these people makes absolutely no sense. They hate her, they want her gone, but she insists that for some reason they need and love her?

I didn't get the love for the Davos stuff. It just seemed odd and out of place to me. I also thought the Bran stuff was really boring. Oh he's in the wilds. Oh he found a tree people. Oh he's a tree now or something. Mystical tree bullshit. Whatever.

What I hated: Ramsay Bolton is ridiculous. Nobody is like this except in GRRM's bizarro world where the cruelest most unrealistic people live on in unchecked retardery. Far be it from Roose to actually deal with this fucker he knows is systematically murdering his line. No, no, let's promote him! It'll make for great story telling having a completely unchecked unredeemable evil-bad running around in the North.

Asha. Don't fucking care. The whole iron men line for that matter. It's stupid, it's pointless, and it has zero to do with what we know is happening. Who gives a fuck about her? Every chapter with her was a slog, even moreso because it involved Theon and Ramsay. They just sail around being pointless.

I want more Dany getting the hell out of that stupid slaver continent. I want Jon to go all zombie-Jon and kick ass. I want Aegon to start fucking people up. I want Cersei to get boiled in oil. I want Tyrion to come back and start the boiling pot. I want Arya to knife everyone who has it coming. I never want to hear about Sansa again. I want the Ironborn to go full Styx and just Sail Away. I want Jaime to just get over himself and run off with the Maid of Tarth. I want Varys to titter as he's getting burned alive. I want Tommen to take his kittens and escape to kitten land where nobody will bother him.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ruvaldt on September 04, 2011, 05:13:34 PM
What I didn't like: Dany's plotline, as stated, changes total direction as she just whines and whines and whines. Several offers come up for her to just GTFO and leave but she doesn't. You are running a country, just walk away. Why she gives a damn about these people makes absolutely no sense. They hate her, they want her gone, but she insists that for some reason they need and love her?

I actually got the sense that the vast majority (former slaves) were in favor of her rule, but the previously ruling elite were against her.  Also, the reason she's so hellbent on staying is her feeling of responsibility for those freed slaves' current situations.  Once she saw the rise of Cleon and destruction of the ruling council that she established in Astapor, and the subsequent fall of Cleon/Astapor, she felt a personal responsibility for the care of those she liberated.  I think that she should leave the continent too, but I absolutely understand her justification for staying.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 04, 2011, 06:19:26 PM
The whole point of her staying in Mereen was that she wanted to rule one city, if she fails miserably at that how can she go and conquer a whole kingdom?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on September 04, 2011, 06:56:16 PM
The whole point of her staying in Mereen was that she wanted to rule one city, if she fails miserably at that how can she go and conquer a whole kingdom?

Massive cultural differences? It's one thing to rule a people you know rather than as a foreign devil they will never accept.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on September 04, 2011, 07:01:25 PM
She's never even been to westeros.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ruvaldt on September 04, 2011, 10:10:21 PM
She clearly wants to go though.

No, she refused to leave the city because she felt responsible for the people there and didn't have enough boats to take them all with her when they offered her a way out.  She wanted to create a lasting peace that would stand up once she left.  I don't think she views Meereen as training wheels for Westeros, or at least I haven't seen anything in the books to make me think that way.  It is also clear that the majority of her subjects loved her, and that she cared for them.  Just look at what she did with the refugee camps outside Meereen when they were suffering from the bloody flux.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Murgos on September 29, 2011, 10:22:21 AM
I just finished this last night.  I'm not sure what I think of it yet plot wise.  I didn't expect that to happen to Jon, at least not that severely.  But I guess GRRM had painted himself into a corner and needed to get out of it.  I suppose the best way for Jon to get out of his vows is that he's dead, though not permanently.

As far as the weather thing on the last page goes, you guys are aware that seasons come mostly from axial tilt and not orbit right?  Otherwise winter would happen on both sides of the equator at the same time.  I'm pretty sure you can have an erratic wobble (or really, periodic but over a grand period with numerous minor oscillations) and a regular year.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Samwise on September 29, 2011, 10:40:22 AM
I'm not sure if you can have a "wobble" in the axis like that, can you?  A rotating body will tend to continue rotating around a fixed axis; for the axis to change the direction of rotation has to change, which requires the application of torque.  Maybe one of our resident astrophysicists will pop up to correct me.

Alternatively, maybe a wizard did it.   :grin:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on September 29, 2011, 10:43:43 AM
It is fucking fantasy, the world can do whatever it wants.

Maybe their sun is manic-depressive but its mood swings are on a galactic timescale.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Draegan on September 29, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
Its fucking magic, duh.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on September 29, 2011, 02:02:06 PM
Quote
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
        Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)
        English physicist & science fiction author (1917 - )



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Murgos on September 29, 2011, 02:41:51 PM
I'm not sure if you can have a "wobble" in the axis like that, can you?  A rotating body will tend to continue rotating around a fixed axis; for the axis to change the direction of rotation has to change, which requires the application of torque.  Maybe one of our resident astrophysicists will pop up to correct me.

Alternatively, maybe a wizard did it.   :grin:

If you hit a top or a gyroscope it will wobble for a bit and eventually sort itself out (a damped oscillation).  For a planet that could take a few thousand millennia.

e:  Anyway, I think I like the book in it's component parts but dislike it when taken as a whole.  It pretty much exists because GRRM screwed up 10 years ago and stuck an overly honorable Jon Snow on the Wall and a bunch of way too young dragons with a way too young Dany in the middle of nowhere.

I'm pretty sure that what just happened was the reset button got pressed on those two characters and they popped back about two books worth of plot development personally while  advancing their characters (and the rest of the Starks) and the rest of the world and now they get to start again.

In Dany's case this is literally what happened.  She is back with Drogo's Khalasar out in the Dothraki sea again but is older and has a fully grown dragon.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Samwise on September 29, 2011, 02:53:04 PM
That I can buy.  Maybe a moon or something smashed into the planet at some point?  That would make for a neat bit of backstory.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on September 29, 2011, 03:26:36 PM
I'm not sure if you can have a "wobble" in the axis like that, can you?  A rotating body will tend to continue rotating around a fixed axis; for the axis to change the direction of rotation has to change, which requires the application of torque.  Maybe one of our resident astrophysicists will pop up to correct me.

Alternatively, maybe a wizard did it.   :grin:

If you hit a top or a gyroscope it will wobble for a bit and eventually sort itself out (a damped oscillation).  For a planet that could take a few thousand millennia.

e:  Anyway, I think I like the book in it's component parts but dislike it when taken as a whole.  It pretty much exists because GRRM screwed up 10 years ago and stuck an overly honorable Jon Snow on the Wall and a bunch of way too young dragons with a way too young Dany in the middle of nowhere.

I'm pretty sure that what just happened was the reset button got pressed on those two characters and they popped back about two books worth of plot development personally while  advancing their characters (and the rest of the Starks) and the rest of the world and now they get to start again.

In Dany's case this is literally what happened.  She is back with Drogo's Khalasar out in the Dothraki sea again but is older and has a fully grown dragon.

The original plan he had was to just stick a 5 year gap here instead of having 2 books, which I don't know why he thought he could do given the various cliffhangers at the end of Book 3.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: naum on October 06, 2011, 08:14:23 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/AB8iW.jpg)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sand on October 06, 2011, 09:07:40 PM
Finished the first three books in the last week and a half. (Staying home from work really increases your reading!  :why_so_serious: )
On Book Four now. LOVING the whole series thus far.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sand on October 19, 2011, 09:59:26 AM
Half way through book 5 now.



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on October 21, 2011, 03:53:54 AM
Well, I dunno, it's not like there's a dragon trainer around to help her out. For all she knows, dragons just automatically listen to whomever they've imprinted upon.

In retrospect, I find myself annoyed by the guns-on-the-mantlepiece that don't get fired in this book--and I think that's evidence for Martin developing a worsening version of Jordan's Syndrome. Lord Manderley, for example. I get what he did at the feast, but I honestly expected that he was going to poison them all. Which would have been fine--it wouldn't have gotten Stannis out of freezing to death if Martin also actually wants to pull that trigger, in fact, it would have made the whole situation more ironic. I'm also sort of sick of the 'can-you-top-this' violence and sex. He can keep 'topping' himself by superior *storytelling*--the Red Wedding was what it was because it made enormous narrative sense, not because it was a yet-more-extreme description of grotesquerie.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on October 21, 2011, 07:30:33 AM


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on October 21, 2011, 07:44:05 AM
I agree it's fairly annoying that the major events of the book were basically never resolved. We follow Stannis all over the north through POV chapters with Jon,  the Greyjoys and a little bit of Davos/Melisandre, all building up the confrontation with the Boltons and what do we get? To be continued.... Same thing in Meereen, city is sieged the whole book, a number of important characters and military forces converge on the city, and the book ends just as its' all coming together for a bigass battle (Barristan will be forced to sally now that the Yunkai are flinging plague inside, his plans were all ready anyways).

I'm not exactly sure if Dany will return to Mereen right away in the next book, or what she will immediately do with her new Khalasar, but I'm guessing at some point she flys over to Asshai and learns more about r'hllor, ancient wisdom, shadows, dragonlore, and other arcane. This fullfills the part of the prophecy "to go west you must go east" and that shadow priestess has been trying to get her over there for a while. Regarding her semi-feral dragons, at some point that issue will most likely be solved by her getting her hands on that dragon horn victarion brought over to Mereen since she's presumably immune to the side effect of it charring the blower's lungs and other vital organs. She's being setup to basically become Queen of the world at this point since a bunch of the free cities are sliding into her pocket. I presume she will eventually subdue slaver bay, a slave rebellion is being set up in Qarth, Pentos is in play with that sellsword captain who's promising his loyalty to whomever can deliver it to him, you gotta assume some shit's gonna go down in Bravos with the sealord sick, the bankers on the move in Westeros, and an important POV character there.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: naum on October 21, 2011, 08:52:41 AM
Do we need the spoiler tags? I thought the thread was already pre-spoiler-ized…


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on October 21, 2011, 09:41:43 AM
Honestly, I want her dead. It'll never happen, but I would really enjoy Arya killing her.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: WayAbvPar on October 21, 2011, 09:42:45 AM
I just want of her dragons to fry her and eat her.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on October 21, 2011, 09:47:42 AM
I just want of her dragons to fry her and eat her.

That would work. Frankly, why the hell do we give a crap about these foreign lands? Nothing going on over there has meant anything to the story since we moved on from her Sun-and-Stars.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on October 21, 2011, 10:10:27 AM
Well she wasn't going to conquer the world with a couple baby lizards, something had to happen for a few years.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sand on October 21, 2011, 10:14:58 AM
Well she wasn't going to conquer the world with a couple baby lizards, something had to happen for a few years.

Except for training. Because you know who needs to train a future giant, flying, fire breathing lizard?
She reminds me of dog owners who never took their dogs to training, enforce no discipline and dont pick up their poop. It makes me burn with the rage of a thousand suns! :drill:


Yes its my nit to pick.  :grin:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on October 21, 2011, 10:26:14 AM
I just want of her dragons to fry her and eat her.

That would work. Frankly, why the hell do we give a crap about these foreign lands? Nothing going on over there has meant anything to the story since we moved on from her Sun-and-Stars.
Uhh


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on October 21, 2011, 10:49:41 AM
Well she wasn't going to conquer the world with a couple baby lizards, something had to happen for a few years.

Except for training. Because you know who needs to train a future giant, flying, fire breathing lizard?

Nobody who's got a fancy McGuffin being delivered by a character with a doom clock ticking above his head.

"No man may blow it and live."  Gee, George, we couldn't figure THAT riddle out at all.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on October 21, 2011, 09:26:38 PM
I guess if you discount the large and powerful exile army from across the sea that just landed and is now sweeping across the south (and will likely team up with one of the most powerful kingdoms), posing the greatest threat to the throne yet in all the books.  Or the fact that Illyrio has been actively funding/supporting the Spiders actions in the west.   Or that Bravos looks to be interveining heavily in the west concerning who will take the throne, as well as funding the wall.

If your talking Dany specific, even when she left Drogo's horde, she has still remained that ever looming threat on the horizon against the west, due to her dragons (which are probably more important to taking the west than all the Dothraki in the Dortharki sea).  So yes, her actions are important to the plot in the west, even if she got bogged down the fuckstupid this book.

I'm talking about her specifically. Her POV sucks. She's looming? LOOMING? Fuck looming. That's something you do for a book as you settle some hash with your backstory. It's been 5 novels and she hasn't moved out of the East. First novel, she's set up as a threat, Second novel, she gathers momentum. Third novel, she gets an army. Ok, a normal person at this point would have her at least start to move on her ultimate goal of conquering the West. BUT NO! We get to watch her bitch and moan in a city (that nobody gives a shit about and that has no effect on anything else) so that we can piss away even more time and GRRM can watch the TV checks and extra sales rooooooooooooooooooll in.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on October 21, 2011, 10:30:50 PM
Well, again, the original plan was for this book to not exist at all - there was just going to be a '5 years later...' jump, but he decided to do away with that and so he had to come up with what is essentially a bunch of filler for Dany so she ends up at the right point after all the time passes. And it really does largely feel like filler.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Murgos on October 22, 2011, 06:01:43 AM
It's kind of pointless to argue about Dany's continued presence in the story since she's in the title she's not going anywhere.  A Song of Fire and Ice.  Of course the title is meant on a couple of levels but still, she's one of them.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on October 22, 2011, 07:14:05 AM
You're right. She's not GOING ANYWHERE.

That's the problem. I don't mind her in the story if she gets off her ass, quits talking about wearing her stupid dresses and floppy ears, and starts fucking people up in Westeros.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Azuredream on October 22, 2011, 08:13:21 AM
That isn't limited to Dany, I think everything could do with at least a little bit of consolidation. There are too many separate pieces acting independently and not enough interaction between the various plots going on.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sand on October 22, 2011, 09:52:00 AM
You're right. She's not GOING ANYWHERE.

That's the problem. I don't mind her in the story if she gets off her ass, quits talking about wearing her stupid dresses and floppy ears, and starts fucking people up in Westeros.
The "floppy ears" shit is only half as bad as that fucking line "I'm only a young girl, and don't know about...."
That she says every single time she does something. Once or twice is cute. Every time is GRATING.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Cheddar on October 22, 2011, 04:49:19 PM
You're right. She's not GOING ANYWHERE.

That's the problem. I don't mind her in the story if she gets off her ass, quits talking about wearing her stupid dresses and floppy ears, and starts fucking people up in Westeros.
The "floppy ears" shit is only half as bad as that fucking line "I'm only a young girl, and don't know about...."
That she says every single time she does something. Once or twice is cute. Every time is GRATING.

She doesn't know anything.  She led a sheltered life, was told she would totally roxxors, then was married to a guy who (at first) treated her like a whore.

I took the whole premise like she was trying to "do the right thing" and is now at the point where she will snap and fuck shit up.  As angry as it made me I am actually happy with this angle.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on October 24, 2011, 11:14:59 AM
I'm talking about her specifically. Her POV sucks. She's looming? LOOMING? Fuck looming. That's something you do for a book as you settle some hash with your backstory. It's been 5 novels and she hasn't moved out of the East. First novel, she's set up as a threat, Second novel, she gathers momentum. Third novel, she gets an army. Ok, a normal person at this point would have her at least start to move on her ultimate goal of conquering the West. BUT NO! We get to watch her bitch and moan in a city (that nobody gives a shit about and that has no effect on anything else) so that we can piss away even more time and GRRM can watch the TV checks and extra sales rooooooooooooooooooll in.
I was responded mainly to your "why do we even care, nothing she has done has mattered to the west since she left Drogo" point.  As you just pointed out above, books 2 and 3 did matter.  She was gaining momentum and building an army, and was looking to move on to the west.  I'm right along with you saying I hate how her story line went in the current book, but that's only the current book.  She's been one of my favorite characters to follow up to book 5, and I think has been very relevant to the story as a whole, until this point.

Also, I liked the "I'm only a young girl" lines.  She was sarcastically insulting them every time she said it.  She never actually meant it.  She always said it in response to somebody who was saying something dumb.  Basically saying, I'm a young girl none of you respect, but even I know your idea is stupid.  We're doing it my way instead, you fucking idiot.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Tale on January 04, 2012, 03:20:38 PM
'These Last Two Are Gonna Be Real Turds,' George R.R. Martin Assures Fans (http://www.theonion.com/articles/these-last-two-are-gonna-be-real-turds-george-rr-m,26934/)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on January 04, 2012, 06:53:07 PM
Are you sure he didn't post that article before Book 4 came out?  :why_so_serious:

Oh Onion, never change.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Evil Elvis on January 04, 2012, 09:28:29 PM
Sample chapter for the next book looks pretty good.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on January 05, 2012, 08:14:32 AM
Very good find, thanks. And I don't mind reading it now, since I know by the time it comes out I'll have forgotten it all.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: NowhereMan on January 06, 2012, 02:55:10 PM
So over Christmas/New Years I tore through all five books, which probably has left me with a better and more enthusiastic picture of the series than most of you guys who have been spending the last 8 or 9 years reading them. Oddly or not I'm finding myself generally agreeing with assessments of which characters are boring/filler and which are great reads. Daenarys has gotten a lot more interesting, perhaps differing from a few I found her sections picked up a lot after she decided to settle in Meereen. I know the point of the book is Westeros but I really can't find myself caring too much about the Taergaryen claim to the throne, her journey to reclaim it just isn't a story I care too much about (although I would have really loved to have read Tywin Lannister's reaction to fucking dragons appearing to destroy his carefully laid plans) but when she decided to settle to actually try and govern and change a whole people it felt like the character actually had plots and events going on that mattered, to them at least. The teenage girl aspect of it is a little annoying ("oh Daario, take me away and ravish me you daring sell-sword!" gets old pretty quick) but she's one of the few rulers we've seen so far who's first concern is actually their people for the sake of the people. Tyrion probably came closest just because he clearly recognised that fucking over the smallfolk was a bad idea, Robb felt the whole Stark duty as a Lord that left you in no doubt he'd not be a dick in any way but I never got the impression he really cared. He certainly cared more about securing the Riverlands than the welfare of the people living in them

Tyrion definitely became far, far less interesting when he left Westeros and decided to just be an utter, unrepentant bastard rather than his previous unhappy schemer. I don't know if the character is now being written with self-pity as his driving motivation and this just isn't enjoyable to read or if there's something else at stake but there's clearly a difference in how he acts (pointless cruelty as opposed to using his wit to stab at bullies). I would have loved to have seen him up against Grandma Tyrell a lot more. As far as the new direction goes, I hope to fuck he manages to ditch that dwarf girl in a convent somewhere, she's the polar opposite of Tywin Lannister in terms of being laughed at and neither are fucking reasonable positions (no-one can ever laugh at me because that's weakness vs. the only way to make people like is if they're laughing).

I'm not sure about Jon Snow, the whole dragging the Wildings off to Winterfell thing seemed so out of left-field for a character who has consistently resisted all efforts to get involved without all that much foreshadowing previously (in terms of the decision rather than the reaction, that was pretty well foreshadowed in him getting rid of all of his friends so he didn't mix with the men and keeping everyone he didn't like/trust to keep an eye on them). I'm guessing the result is going to be bloodshed, possibly halted by Lady Melisandre and the Queen's Men at the Nightfort followed by nothing of any note happening for a couple of books. My personal theory is that the Melisandre's spells working better at the Wall involve her leeching the power of the Wall itself and she continues to weaken it as she tries to fight off the Dark God. I imagine this will at some be followed by the revelation that the Dark God she's fighting isn't the power behind the Others and Bran flies out in the form of a winged Mammoth before being shot by a Dornish hunter in the pay of Varys.

I'm also waiting for something horrible to happen to Arya, largely along the lines of her killing off Ser Selmy or one of the other likeable characters to help Littlefinger in whatever game he's playing.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on February 08, 2012, 08:22:56 AM
Reading this now.  Good god this is a steaming pile of contrived shit so far.  I'm only about 40% into it, so maybe it will improve.  I'm not optimistic.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: RhyssaFireheart on February 08, 2012, 09:07:51 AM
I recently went back to try rereading the books so that I could pick up the most recent one and I haven't been able to get into book 1 again at all.  I put it down to start reading something else, then another something else, and now it's just sitting on my side table.  I liked the book the first time I read it but I can't seem to get into it a second time around.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on February 08, 2012, 07:48:14 PM
I have the same problem with book 1;  I can't read the beginning anymore.  I start about the time they get to King's Landing and go from there.

Then again I don't read any of them in order anymore.  I just pick a random page, flip to the start of the chapter and read for a while.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on February 10, 2012, 05:43:54 AM
Over halfway through now and not a goddamned thing has happened.  

Someone should remind Martin about how important it is to advance the story.  

Edit:  The Onion wins again (http://www.theonion.com/articles/these-last-two-are-gonna-be-real-turds-george-rr-m,26934/), as usual. 

Quote
"For starters, there'll be no mention of the dragons at all, because I'm pretty much sick of writing about dragons at this point," said Martin


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on February 13, 2012, 12:10:42 PM
I have the same problem with book 1;  I can't read the beginning anymore.  I start about the time they get to King's Landing and go from there.

Then again I don't read any of them in order anymore.  I just pick a random page, flip to the start of the chapter and read for a while.

I read a lot of books like that, especially ones I've re-read a half a dozen times. My favourite is probably the rise and fall of the 3rd reich, I've basically turned it into a bathroom reader.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on February 14, 2012, 09:30:51 AM
This books are made for rereads, there are tons of things that mean absolutely nothing at all the first time you read them but complete genius when you read them knowing what happens after.

e-fixed spoiler tags- WAP


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on February 29, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
So now I'm 85% into this and not a goddamned thing has happened.   :oh_i_see: :heartbreak:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on February 29, 2012, 04:38:40 PM
So now I'm 85% into this and not a goddamned thing has happened.   :oh_i_see: :heartbreak:

Into which one?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on February 29, 2012, 04:48:11 PM
Dance of Dragons.  Sorry, should have clarified.

It's been less of a dance and more of a slog.  I suppose every author needs their God Emperor.....


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Quinton on March 04, 2012, 04:57:06 PM
After the last two books, I am convinced GRRM's original plan to do a five year fast-forward after setting everything up was the right call and scrapping it to continue the story in "real time" was a mistake.  Oops!  Too late for him to go back and fix it now.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Thrawn on March 04, 2012, 07:11:41 PM
So now I'm 85% into this and not a goddamned thing has happened.   :oh_i_see: :heartbreak:

Into which one?

I assumed he meant the series as a whole.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on March 05, 2012, 02:33:02 PM
After the last two books, I am convinced GRRM's original plan to do a five year fast-forward after setting everything up was the right call and scrapping it to continue the story in "real time" was a mistake.  Oops!  Too late for him to go back and fix it now.

But then, how else could he continually punish us with more Dany slogging? The fact that I expect her to win at the end makes it even more disgusting.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Samwise on March 05, 2012, 03:04:01 PM
After the last two books, I am convinced GRRM's original plan to do a five year fast-forward after setting everything up was the right call and scrapping it to continue the story in "real time" was a mistake.  Oops!  Too late for him to go back and fix it now.

But then, how else could he continually punish us with more Dany slogging? The fact that I expect her to win at the end makes it even more disgusting.

I expect her to get eaten by one of her dragons.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on March 08, 2012, 07:08:21 PM
Honestly, the motherfucker
What the fuck?  I think he's had a few too many cheetos. :uhrr:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on March 08, 2012, 11:13:14 PM


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ruvaldt on March 08, 2012, 11:28:36 PM


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on March 09, 2012, 06:44:31 AM


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Draegan on March 09, 2012, 08:22:11 AM
This is a spoiler thread, no need to put everything in spoilers right?

Anyway, the end of the last book and how the next one will begin is pretty obvious. 

Also, I'm really really interested in the plot line that we didn't get a sniff of in the last book with what is happening in Oldtown.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on March 09, 2012, 12:49:38 PM
He could have written the past two books in five chapters.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Draegan on March 12, 2012, 01:22:48 PM
I really loved the 4th book.  Book 5, not so much.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on March 12, 2012, 01:35:56 PM
Really? exact opposite for me, book 4 would have been good if i cared more about the characters but i didn't so i didn't particularly like it.  It was still good story telling, the Samwell/Dorne/Brienne/Iron Men stuff was fine but it is not what or who i wanted to read about.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on March 12, 2008, 06:56:06 PM
Well, as it stands there are so many loose fucking ends that he won't be able to finish it up in 10 books.   :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ruvaldt on March 12, 2012, 10:45:40 PM
That assumes he'll tie up all of the loose ends though.  I think good storytelling is the kind which leaves some mystery behind.  Plus, it's not really a cohesive story like, say, the Lord of the Rings trilogy in which there was an obvious beginning and end.  The series could've begun with the War of the Usurper or any number of other events; the ending will be the same way if Martin lives long enough to write it.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: shiznitz on March 13, 2012, 06:54:33 AM
I am re-reading Feast now before I start Dance and I have to say that I am enjoying it much more now than I remember when I first read it 7 years ago.  I read the first 4 almost back to back to back to back so Feast might have suffered in comparison at the time or just suffered from overall Martin fatigue.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Tale on January 28, 2013, 05:21:18 PM
I just finished books 1-5 for the first time. Some thoughts sparked by posts in this thread:



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on January 30, 2013, 03:32:56 PM
On Tale's stuff.


1. My concern by the end of book 5 about that was there are only 2 books theoretically left and we don't know anything about the 'main' event.

2. Jon Snow broke an oath and from the very first prologue we're told how that means you end up dead. I'll be pretty disappointed if he turns straight into a Catelyn style zombie. I imagine he'll live on within Ghost and eventually meet up with Benjen and Brandon. We know bodies can be preserved in the cold at the wall, maybe he does shit and later gets to reawaken after saving the wildlings in the north.

3. Could be right, I also think he helps maintain the belief that Dany is the answer to everything. I really find it hard to see her conquering Westeros but clearly Martin wants us to think that she will.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on February 01, 2013, 08:51:46 AM
I'm hoping that Tyrion gets hooked up with Daeny and slaps her silly bitch ass straight.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on February 01, 2013, 09:19:58 AM
Technically book 5 was actually Book4 pt2, so we've got 3 more books to go.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on February 01, 2013, 09:37:48 AM
I don't think Jon Snow is dead, I think that the R'hllor witch, Melisndre, had a double in for him just like with Mance Rayder's execution. 


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Bunk on February 01, 2013, 12:15:35 PM
Nah, he's dead. He has a wolf named Ghost. That to me is something Martin setup in book one, fully planning to have Jon's "ghost" inhabit his wolf.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on February 01, 2013, 04:08:37 PM
If he's not dead GRRM needs to get in his delorean, head back to the early nineties and redact all those passages when half the cast from Gared, to Master Cressen, to Robb Stark, drops dead as a direct result of oath breaking.

Even Jaquen shits his pants at the prospect of an oath being at risk.


More interesting is where that note came from. I'm not convinced it came from Ramsey. He's not smart enough to kill Jon by raven.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Tale on February 02, 2013, 08:37:25 PM
Nah, he's dead. He has a wolf named Ghost. That to me is something Martin setup in book one, fully planning to have Jon's "ghost" inhabit his wolf.

Hmm yeah he could tem up with Summer, Nymeria and her pack. They could probably bring the big pig into line and be part of the war. Warg corps.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Zaljerem on February 04, 2013, 12:42:28 PM
Regarding Jon Snow: We know from the Varamyr prologue and from Bran/Hodor that wargs can take other human's bodies. We know from the whole Beric/Catelyn resurrection that people can come back to life. Melisandre's visions see Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again.

Taking all of the above, he's dead but he'll be back, first in Ghost and then as a man, possibly even his old body. That's my guess.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on February 05, 2013, 04:39:21 AM
The only thing that bugs me about this whole train of thought is that it seems more and more like "normal fantasy": the prophecy of the hero, the last-minute save from armageddon, etc.

It almost seems opposite to what Martin's been doing overall with the series. I'd almost expect the whole thing to be an elaborate fake-out, to have Jon be dead-dead, Melisandre the inexpert interpreter of weird delirious imagery being sent to her by a force beyond human understanding, and the walkers to be unbeatable.

I'd actually settle for the series winding up to a where the political rivalries in Westeros become irrelevant as winter kills most and the walkers kill the rest, the few survivors of whatever faction gather in King's Landing, and the story becomes less "who will defeat the White Walkers, save the land and sit on the Iron Throne" and more "who will be able to delay the walkers long enough to Dunkirk the last five thousand Westeros people off the continent into an uncertain future across the Narrow Sea." Maybe he could have Dany and Tyrion be the rulers of a ragged city of ghosts and survivors, since I think by that time the three of them will be pretty expert about those lands. And Westeros just settles into an unending winter under the control of snow zombies who have to deal with occasional terrorist attacks by Bran hanging around in the weirwoods.

It just doesn't feel like this series should end with heroic sacrifices, some kind of magic McGuffin, a prophecy fulfilled, the proper heirs with the proper blood restored to their proper throne, any of that stuff.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on February 05, 2013, 05:12:48 AM
King's Landing wouldn't be the last redoubt,  Dorne would be.  They've mentioned a few times that winter never reaches Dorne.  Following the "all the tropes are broken and everything people say is shown to be BS" setup, this Winter would.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on February 05, 2013, 05:17:40 AM
I love how everyone thinks there is some grand plan for the whole series. Martin has said he wanted to write about the War of the Roses but in a fantasy setting. That tells me his whole premise is writing about politics/incest/intruige/etc. and not about some grand overarching plot. Maybe he does have an endgame in mind, but I can't bring myself to really even care if he does. I will borrow the next one from the library in a couple five years when it comes out, and be underwhelmed like I was with the last one.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on February 05, 2013, 05:33:56 AM
One thing people misread in the early books was the idea that 'anything' can happen and  'nobody is safe'.

It really was standard fantasy from the start. Just well hidden because it goes slowly and you see it from limited points of view.

Everything is subject to inviolable prophecy. People live and die according to a specific code, and to serve narrative themes/morals. 'Shit happens' was never a theme.

The clever part was showing that from the micro scale so that it isn't initially obvious, and having most of the characters make the same mistake of thinking people like Rheagar or Ned died because they stood on their honour.

Ned Stark didn't die because of his honor, he died because he considered Cersei Lannister beneath him. Robb Stark didn't die because of political intrigue, he died because he broke his oath.

But the really clever part will be how you close it all out in a satisfying way while sticking to this method of storytelling. I think FoC and DwD really needed to set up the 'magic vs non magic' conflict the way GoT set up the war of five kings. As it stands I really don't see 2 books being nearly enough.

My guess is the ending will see the citadel beat off the whoever is bringing the magic (Quaithe?) and westeros separate back into 7 kingdoms (crowns for everyone). But just giving everyone who needs it a death or a redemption under that structure isn't going to leave much space for the plot.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on February 05, 2013, 05:41:35 AM
Two books certainly won't be enough with where he's painted himself into.  The problem being he's 65 and not in the best of shape, so I'd put money on there not being a 'next' book much less two or three.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: tazelbain on February 05, 2013, 11:31:25 AM
I see it as the Game of Thrones and the dead are for the most part bad players.  Ned in particular thought that the whole Game was beneath him not just Cersai.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on February 05, 2013, 01:13:36 PM
Ned wasn't a bad player, Manderly's story confirmed it wasn't just Arryn who won the throne for Robert, not to mention smashing the iron island rebellion, and keeping a Targareyn heir up his sleeve for 20 years.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 25, 2013, 11:00:37 AM

I don't even think it'll be that complicated

Book stuff btw He is stabbed, but nothing in the book indicates that he is killed from the stabbings. I'm sure someone(thing) will save him from a mortal stab wound


His wolf is called 'Ghost'.
He's a Stark.
The wildlings called him a warg, other wargs survived in animals after dying.
ALSO HIS WOLF IS CALLED GHOST.
So...


Noit to mention this handy little passage from the last book which specifically TELLS you exactly what is going to happen: 
Quote
The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, lined in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

The problem with that though is that the book 5 intro goes out of it's way to tell us about how untrained as a warg he is. Also it tells us about how a man in a wolf's personality will eventually disappear. I think Murdoc's explanation is more likely than Jon Snow, boy Wolf, no matter how many capital letters you use.



If you want to be practical about it (though prophecy and symbolism is far more reliable) the problem with "he's not quite dead" is that it leaves him stuck at the wall as a deserter. The watch would have to keep stabbing him until he really was dead.

Going off as the wolf gets him away from the wall, with a body back at the wall, which we have conspicuously been told has cells which preserve bodies. It also gives the watch an excuse to accept that Jon's watch is ended. Plus we're repeatedly told of the importance if saving the people gathering North of the wall.

Back on symbolism, he's now been born a second time in smoke and salt, AP mentions direct prophecy above, and oathbreakers always have to pay a price.

From the TV thread, I removed the spoilers tags, I'll reread this thread from the start as I've kinda gotten over my disappointment with the last book by now.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 25, 2013, 11:07:35 AM
We really need a tv show thread for book readers, not just a show thread and a book thread.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on April 25, 2013, 12:17:12 PM
That's been suggested many times, but nobody's started it.  I don't have HBO and only catch the show when season DVDs come out so I'm not starting it.

I originally interpreted Mel's vision as a simple statement that John was a warg, surrounded by people who were intent on killing him, not a prophecy about his future. Although, his face disappearing half-seen would lend more to that theory than my own reading.

Still, will be be reborn the way Cat and and the Knight have been, or inhabit some other body because he's just special and won't have to learn the way the wildling did?

Come to think of it.. he won't have to learn.  Bran will teach him how, as he's already doing it with Hodor and has tried contacting John a few times already.  He'll teach John so he doesn't get lost in Ghost, then take-over some noble's body so he can marry Dany and unite the lands.  What candidate for being possessed?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 25, 2013, 01:13:42 PM
Quote
Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow

Above from a Dany vision I believe.

I can't see Jon permanently stealing a body from anyone who still had a use for it, seems too much like "bad magic".  If we're looking around for for bodies to stick him in, Others/White Walkers have blue eyes, maybe his own body gets animated after death and he could retake control of it?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Cheddar on April 25, 2013, 03:10:24 PM
Quote
Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow

Above from a Dany vision I believe.

I can't see Jon permanently stealing a body from anyone who still had a use for it, seems too much like "bad magic".  If we're looking around for for bodies to stick him in, Others/White Walkers have blue eyes, maybe his own body gets animated after death and he could retake control of it?

Ooooh good theory.  This has been done before (cold hands).


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 25, 2013, 03:25:24 PM
I haven't really delved into the possible plot lines before, but picking up on this Threash's comment.

Aegon my ass, that's the son of Illyrio and a Blackfyre former whore.

Yeah, I'd buy that, the fake Dragon.

Also on Tyrion, Aerys, the Mad King had a thing for Tyrion's mother? 
Quote
Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."
Quote
"You... you are no... no son of mine." Tywin's last words

The dragon has 3 heads.

Daenerys Targaryen
Tyrion Lannister Targaryen (her half brother)
Jon Snow Targaryen (her nephew)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on April 25, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
I believe that is the most common theory for the 3 heads thing right now, yes.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on April 25, 2013, 03:52:02 PM
I hadn't heard a theory about Tyrion.  Would certainly explain a few things.

* Naming his hated dwarf child a name so close to his own. Tyrion was twisted from birth, but it would be a way of reclaiming something of his pride.
* Treating the last vestige of his beloved wife like shit.  It's not his kid that killed her.
* As it's not his kid, it's made him even more bitter and angry that Tyrion's the best of the bunch.  Underscores the idea that Lannister blood is not fit to rule in any capacity.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 25, 2013, 04:51:07 PM
I haven't really delved into the possible plot lines before, but picking up on this Threash's comment.

Aegon my ass, that's the son of Illyrio and a Blackfyre former whore.

Yeah, I'd buy that, the fake Dragon.



Yeah, there's the whole "mummer's dragon" thing.  The Golden Company, who's only reason for existence was to put the Blackfyres in power.  Septon Meribald tells Brienne and Pod a story about an Inn with a black dragon sign that had it taken down and thrown in the river once the Blackfyres rebelled and took it as their symbol, but the head washed back ashore red with rust.  And Illiryo marrying a whore? who happened to have silver hair?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Phred on April 25, 2013, 11:14:09 PM
  What candidate for being possessed?

I don't think Theon is very happy with his life currently.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 25, 2013, 11:53:48 PM
I hadn't heard a theory about Tyrion.  Would certainly explain a few things.

* Naming his hated dwarf child a name so close to his own.  was twisted from birth, but it would be a way of reclaiming something of his pride.
* Treating the last vestige of his beloved wife like shit.  It's not his kid that killed her.
* As it's not his kid, it's made him even more bitter and angry that Tyrion's the best of the bunch.  Underscores the idea that Lannister blood is not fit to rule in any capacity.

I like the symmetry of Tyrion killing Jaime's father, years after Jaime had killed Tyrion's father.  Their mother is still a true born Lannister, just as Jon's mother is a true Stark.

Though the symmetry still works if Tyrion is Tywin's only true child and Cersei & Jaime are children of Aerys....


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 26, 2013, 03:02:36 AM
Cersei, I've never liked the character nor understood why she needs a viewpoint, so she's probably the easier twin to figure out over Jaime.

Quote
Cersei:"When will I wed the prince?"
Maggy:"Never. You will wed the king."
Cersei:"I will be queen, though?"
Maggy:"Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Cersei:"Will the king and I have children?"
Maggy:"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."
Maggy:"Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Valonqar is apparently the High Valyrian word for "little brother", so assuming Tyrion and the Twins have a different father, Jamie or Tyrion will kill her, but only after all three of her children are dead.

So again, it could go either way which seems to indicate George put all this in place for a reason.

Quote
Ser Barristan to Daenerys:
"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.

Might hint at twin Targaryen's, Jamie being the third head of the Dragon, but Tyrion had Dragon dreams when young.

Quote
Jon wonders why he reads of dragons when they are all dead, and Tyrion replies that he used to dream of having a dragon of his own and started fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock that he would stare at for hours. Sometimes he would imagine that Tywin was burning in the fire; other times it was Cersei.
...
Tyrion complements him for facing a hard truth rather than ignoring it and says he hardly ever dreams of dragons anymore.

I'd guess Tyrion is the more likely a Targaryen so less liable to be true, but Tyrion is better traveled in the seven kingdoms, been to the wall, talks with Maester Aemon (a Targaryen Great Grand Uncle), already friends with Jon and about to meet Dany.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 26, 2013, 05:20:21 AM
Personally I hope Tyrion is a Lannister. Having him and Jon both be hidden Dragons seems a bit rubbish. That said, I suspect you can learn a lot from the scenes where TV dialog matches the book word for word, and the Tyrion/Tywin scene early in season 3 took a lot of unnecessary detail about Tyrion's parentage and Casterly Rock.

Also the Valonqar doesn't necessarily have to be Cersei's little brother. There are any number of other younger brothers available.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on April 26, 2013, 05:46:39 AM
Don't forget Cersi was born first.  She's the eldest of all the children.  Given how he's turned from Cersi and how she's pretty much irredeemable, it's most likely going to be Jamie who kills her.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 26, 2013, 06:25:58 AM
Don't forget Cersi was born first.  She's the eldest of all the children.  Given how he's turned from Cersi and how she's pretty much irredeemable, it's most likely going to be Jamie who kills her.

If i had to guess after she kills Tomnen when she realizes she's lost him to Margaery.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 26, 2013, 02:48:02 PM
One question I honestly don't have a clue about but suspect is pretty central to everything, and would be surprised if there aren't clues I've missed:

What does Varys want?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 26, 2013, 03:11:04 PM
I haven't really looked into it but from what I recall Varys seems to act in the best interests of the common people, so I'd say he wants a just king.  He liked Ned but thought he was beyond saving.  He was playing a long game at supporting Viserys & Daenerys but had the backup of fake Aegon, those plots were years in the making.  

If true, the story about the guy in the box seems to indicate he's involved in the magic war which seems to be "really evil", trapped box guy, versus "not that evil all the time", but maybe the Old Gods make up a third side in that war.

Personally I hope Tyrion is a Lannister. Having him and Jon both be hidden Dragons seems a bit rubbish. That said, I suspect you can learn a lot from the scenes where TV dialog matches the book word for word, and the Tyrion/Tywin scene early in season 3 took a lot of unnecessary detail about Tyrion's parentage and Casterly Rock.

Also the Valonqar doesn't necessarily have to be Cersei's little brother. There are any number of other younger brothers available.

I can't decide if I want the Twins to be Targaryen or Tyrion.  Hair coloring and geographic location to the Dragons make Tyrion seem logical to me at the minute.  Downside is it makes Tywin's cruelty towards him more justified and I don't like that.  I do like that Tywin apparently ordered the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon and Tyrion would be their uncle.

The couple of sample chapters released for the next book are worth a read, Theon Greyjoy (http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/sample-chapter-from-winds-of-winter.207815997/) & Arianne Martell (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/).

I'm looking forward to the next book as one way or another we'll leave the wall behind and hopefully learn a lot more about the white walkers through Jon's viewpoint as I think he's going to somehow represent the Ice in the title of the series.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 26, 2013, 03:51:03 PM
Patchface (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Patchface) is a character I'd like to see more of.
Quote
"Fool’s blood. King’s blood, blood on the maiden’s thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye".
Obvious reference to the Red Wedding.

Quote
"Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish".
Patchface says the above, similar quote from Varys below.
Quote
"The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eat the little fish, and I keep on paddling".


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 26, 2013, 04:23:44 PM
I haven't really looked into it but from what I recall Varys seems to act in the best interests of the common people, so I'd say he wants a just king.  He liked Ned but thought he was beyond saving.  He was playing a long game at supporting Viserys & Daenerys but had the backup of fake Aegon, those plots were years in the making.  


He killed Kevan for the simple reason that he was doing too good a job holding the realm together.  I'd say the only ones he's been reliably working for are the Targaryens.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 27, 2013, 01:06:32 AM
But if pro-targ, he can't be anti magic.

Dany was warned about the perfumed seneschal.

And if he is not pro-targ, why send Tyrion to her?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Phred on April 27, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
I haven't really looked into it but from what I recall Varys seems to act in the best interests of the common people, so I'd say he wants a just king.  He liked Ned but thought he was beyond saving.  He was playing a long game at supporting Viserys & Daenerys but had the backup of fake Aegon, those plots were years in the making.  


He killed Kevan for the simple reason that he was doing too good a job holding the realm together.  I'd say the only ones he's been reliably working for are the Targaryens.

Are you saying Varys killed Kevan cause other then by inaction that's not how I remember it, and Tryion seems to think he did it.



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 27, 2013, 01:32:06 AM
Varys killed Kevan by shooting him with a crossbow then having his little birds stab him with knives.

Are you thinking of Tywin?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Phred on April 27, 2013, 01:34:07 AM
Varys killed Kevan by shooting him with a crossbow then having his little birds stab him knives.

Are you thinking of Tywin?

Oops shit :)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 27, 2013, 01:45:30 AM
But if pro-targ, he can't be anti magic.

Dany was warned about the perfumed seneschal.

And if he is not pro-targ, why send Tyrion to her?

I'm not sure what people mean when they talk about an anti-magic side.

Blood/Fire Magic (Dragons, warm resurrection, Shadows, future visions)
Cold Magic (White Walkers, cold resurrection)
Water Magic (Greyscale, Drowned men, future visions)

Old Gods (Trees, future visions, wargs?)

Just a quick stab at the above.  Fire and ice opposites, water in the middle, blood freezes and burns.

Quote from: Stannis Baratheon
Ser Barristan once told me the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned."


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 27, 2013, 04:06:10 AM
Varys explicitly claims to Tyrion that his driving force is hatred of all magic users, Marwyn states that the Citadel 'killed the dragons' and works to keep magic out of the world. The various magic forces may or may not be aligned to each other, but at the very least they all seem to benefit from the rising tide. The types of magic don't seem exclusive as there seem to be various users of multiple strands.

Varys being behind Aerys' descent to madness (or Robert's campaign to kill Rhaegar) wouldn't really come as a shock, but again makes you realise his interaction with "Aegon" and Dany isn't necessarily supportive.

The only satisfying solution I can see is that:
Possibly aligned to the Citadel, he wants control of Westeros from behind the throne, because his faction is considers itself the only one smart enough to not screw everything up.
He overthrew Aerys because Aerys sought magic.
Sidelined or killed Aerys' children having realised this would only happen over and over.
Found he could not control Robert or the state while power was based on the balance of the houses rather than a dominant king.
"Aegon" is the solution he sees to ending the war of the roses and installing someone acceptable and pliable but whose claim won't be challenged.

But there are problems with this, he allowed Dany to have the Dragon eggs after all.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 27, 2013, 04:40:58 AM
Marwyn states that the Citadel 'killed the dragons' and works to keep magic out of the world. The various magic forces may or may not be aligned to each other, but at the very least they all seem to benefit from the rising tide. The types of magic don't seem exclusive as there seem to be various users of multiple strands.

Interesting, Patchface could be referring to obsidian candles, one of which it was reported that Marwyn managed to light.

Quote
Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

Quote
One green and three black candles were brought to the Citadel from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom of Valyria.

Quaithe (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quaithe)

Quote
"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.

I had forgotten the "perfumed seneschal" quote, Sun's son would seem to be the son of House Martell, Quentyn, mummer's dragon, fake Aegon, others seem obvious too.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 27, 2013, 07:28:10 AM
Patchface (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Patchface)

I had a brief look at various explanations for what Patchface is saying, if somebody else mentioned this I didn't see it, but could "under the sea" translate to something like "in Valyrian Freehold"?  

Possibly both present tense, as in potentially useful information, and past tense as you need that to solve the key.

Quote
Under the sea, the birds have scales for feathers. I know. I know…
In Valyrian Freehold there are Dragons.
Quote
It is always summer under the sea. The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know. I know…
It's always summer in Valyrian Freehold.  The ladies wear flowers in their hair and weave gowns of silver
Quote
Under the sea it snows up, and the rain is dry as bone. I know. I know…
The Fourteen Flames is an immense chain of volcanoes extending across the neck of the Valyrian peninsula.  In Valyrian Freehold Snow is Ash, rain is lava.
Quote
The shadows come to dance my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord...
No key, but Daenerys recalls hearing that the first dragons had come from the east, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai and the islands of the Jade Sea.  The Dance of the Dragons was a civil war during Targaryen rule, most of the Targaryen dragons were killed in the war.  Dragons have returned.
Quote
Under the sea, you fall up. I know. I know…
In Valyrian Freehold, you can fly.  (Not sure about this one at all).

Quote
Here we eat fish, under the sea, the fish eat us. I know. I know…
Here we eat fish, in Valyrian Freehold, the fish eat us (The Doom fragmented the land surrounding Valyria itself into numerous smaller islands, creating the Smoking Sea between them)
Quote
Under the sea no one wears hats. I know. I know…
If the key is referring to Valyrian and the surrounding area that is now the smoking sea, hats won't do you much good underwater  (Not sure about this one at all either).

Quote
Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.
In Valyrian Freehold, volcanoes, bubbles, as mentioned earlier the magic candles came from Valyria.

Quote
“Under the sea the crows are white as snow.”
Very difficult.  Crows could be men, like the men at the wall, simple crows, ravens, snow might be ash, white could be white walkers, dead men, white ravens even


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 27, 2013, 09:06:23 AM
regarding the volcanos, they may be a clue to mirri maz dur's prophecy about drogo returning when mountains blow (ash) in the wind, the whole up is down, east is west, etc seems to be an important theme of everyone's prophecies, and I don't know what that really refers to.

"Dany must go to Asshai" seems far too prosaic. It implies GRRM is very proud of some kind of mass reversal he has planned.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on April 27, 2013, 10:44:50 AM
I honestly don't think he has thought out much beyond where his next cheeseburger is coming from at this point.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Phred on April 27, 2013, 11:29:09 AM
I honestly don't think he has thought out much beyond where his next cheeseburger is coming from at this point.

The guy could have a lifetime supply of cheeseburgers catered to him at this point. He's fucking rich. Most authors usually have a plan for the beginning and the end of a story in their heads before writing. The middle supposedly takes care of itself.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 27, 2013, 11:59:01 AM
He has in fact shared the plan of where the story will go with the TV guys, at least a basic summary of how each character ends up.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on April 27, 2013, 12:21:37 PM
That's a change from the last thing I heard him say, which was that he left instructions for his notes to all be burned if he died without finishing it.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 27, 2013, 12:41:50 PM
I honestly don't think he has thought out much beyond where his next cheeseburger is coming from at this point.

I dunno I think he's very careful with the Prophecies.

From Storm of Swords, Jaime's dream, while using a bearskin for a pillow on weirwood stump, the dream predicts Brienne facing the Bear in the pit. 

But it's also showing Casterly Rock, home of the Lannisters.

Quote
“Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

There's no Tyrion there, the one Lannister Jaime would certainly list before Joffrey, but Jaime can also see the shapes of the others and still doesn't mention Tyrion, the one shape that would be easier to identify than a face in the dark.

Full section, lengthy so spoilered


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 29, 2013, 12:46:00 PM
Any thoughts on Lemore (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lemore)?

A lot of people seem convinced she is Ashara Dayne (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ashara_Dayne), there are just not a lot of missing females in the books, the men are more likely to leave home.

I can see the appeal as you can trace a lot of the plot back to the Tourney at Harrenhal and more specifically the Knight of the Laughing Tree (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree).  She could give a view point on that, plus Ned's visit to her after the deaths of Arthur Dayne & Lyanna Stark (Lyanna does seem a fairly good fit for the mystery of the Knight of the Laughing Tree).

I've also never been happy that the secret of Jon's birth was going to be solved by Howland Reed, it's been way too obvious for too long now.  When/If Howland appears in the books people will be skipping pages ahead to see if he says anything about the Tower of Joy.  There are so many more plot lines Ashara could tie together, she might possibly have even been a wet-nurse to Prince Aegon (if real) due to her role as lady-in-waiting to his mother.

People don't seem put off that much by the fact Tyrion didn't mention her eyes being purple.
Quote
Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter

That doesn't bother me as much, Tyrion seems to have darker hair in the TV series, even though could have dyed it any colour.  I can imagine that physical characteristic clues George put in the books being a lot more obvious in a TV series and he's since adjusted his writing.

What does bother me is she seems too old.  If he'd lived Ned would be 37 at the same time as Tyrion describes Lemore as "being over forty years old", I think it's stretching things to have her ~5 years older.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 29, 2013, 01:46:37 PM
Yeah, the purple eyes is kind of a deal breaker in my opinion.  That would've been mentioned, or a way to change the color of your eyes would have been casually dropped at some point in the previous books.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 30, 2013, 06:28:00 AM
I think you're reading too much into Jamie's dream. Tyrion is certainly a Lannister just as Jon is certainly a Stark.


Lemore/Ashara feels like fandom taking 2 unsolved mysteries and sticking them together without evidence.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 30, 2013, 06:58:49 AM
The ground work is in place if George wants to make the Twins or Tyrion Targaryen, I only noticed the slight oddity of Jamie's dream at the time I posted it.

I agree on Lemore, but that's just what people do (though Jon Connington did dance with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal).  As for Tyrion, maybe George won't go there now so many people have guessed, maybe it was never intended.  I don't buy that Tyrion must be Tywin's son as they are so alike, Jaime has always been very easy to manipulate and Cersei is pretty dim.  Tyrion has been desperate for Tywin's approval all his life, you even see that in the last book, he doesn't have a clue what to do now that Tywin is dead.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 30, 2013, 08:54:01 AM
I think you're reading too much into Jamie's dream. Tyrion is certainly a Lannister just as Jon is certainly a Stark.


At this point if Jon turns out to be a Stark that would be a massive retcon.  Hell, that was the one question Martin posed the TV guys before he let them do the show.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on April 30, 2013, 09:40:18 AM
I think you're reading too much into Jamie's dream. Tyrion is certainly a Lannister just as Jon is certainly a Stark.


At this point if Jon turns out to be a Stark that would be a massive retcon.  Hell, that was the one question Martin posed the TV guys before he let them do the show.
How so?  I thought it was pretty much the accepted theory by everybody that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 30, 2013, 09:48:40 AM
I think you're reading too much into Jamie's dream. Tyrion is certainly a Lannister just as Jon is certainly a Stark.


At this point if Jon turns out to be a Stark that would be a massive retcon.  Hell, that was the one question Martin posed the TV guys before he let them do the show.
How so?  I thought it was pretty much the accepted theory by everybody that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

That's would make him a Targaryen bastard (a "Sands" i guess since the tower of joy was in Dorne), or a Targaryen if Lyanna and Rhaegar married at some point or if he got legitimized.  Not a Stark.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on April 30, 2013, 09:50:37 AM
The "not a Stark" thing posed to the TV writers referred to Jon's lack of nobility and ability to inherit Winterfell, I thought.  Martin being concerned the writers would do the usual TV-writer thing and try to inject tension with some sort of hope Jon has about being able to one day, yadda, yadda, yadda.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on April 30, 2013, 10:02:28 AM
No he specifically asked them "who is Jon Snow's mother" on their very first meeting.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 30, 2013, 10:11:49 AM
Producers David Benioff, Dan Weiss & George R.R. Martin Talk GAME OF THRONES Season 3 and 4, Martin’s Cameo, the End of the Series, and More (http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-3-4-george-r-r-martin-interview/)

Quote
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: I did ask them a few pointed question to determine whether they had actually read the books, and they gave me the right answers.  So, we shook hands and they took the ball and ran with it.  The next thing I knew, we were in business with HBO.

David and Dan, what was the specific question that George asked you?

DAN WEISS:  He asked us, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”  We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer.  At that point, George didn’t actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell.  We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

Found the above if it helps.

Eldaec might just mean by nature Jon is a Stark as Ned was his father figure, in addition to presumably being his uncle.  I'm confused as to if people here don't think his mother is Lyanna, which does seem obvious so not exactly a "shocking answer".

Edit to add, pretty sure Ned said Jon shares his blood, which would indicate Ned, his older brother or Lyanna.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on April 30, 2013, 11:30:54 AM
It would be a pretty shocking answer if they still thought Ned was the father.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 01, 2013, 01:50:00 AM
The four great bastards.

1. Daemon Blackfyre (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daemon_Blackfyre) was a bastard son Aegon IV.
One of his sons was Aegon Blackfyre, who possibly had female descendants leading to the Blackfyre whore and the current live (fake) Aegon (Targaryen), so he'd really be Aegon (Blackfyre).

Threash's mention of the story of the Black Dragon to rusted Red Dragon inn sign fits with this so well.

2. Aegor Rivers, aka Bittersteel (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegor_Rivers), was a bastard son Aegon IV.
On his deathbed, Bittersteel commanded the men of the Golden Company to boil the flesh from his skull, dip it in gold and carry it before them when they cross the sea to retake Westeros. His successors had followed his example.

3. Brynden Rivers, aka Bloodraven (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers), was a bastard son Aegon IV, he was a Targaryen loyalist during the Blackfyre Rebellion.  He's the Three-eyed crow teaching Bran to be a greenseer.

Quote
It is also theorized that Bloodraven was actually present at Whitewalls, using his famous sorcery to disguise himself as a knight named Maynard Plumm. This is supported by Ser Maynard's knowledge of Dunk, as well as the fact that Dunk noticed that Plumm's features began to look less authentic the longer he looked. This kind of magic is also used in A Dance with Dragons, when Melisandre makes Mance Rayder appear to other men as Rattleshirt.

So with three of the four bastards still in play (Bittersteel just being a skull carried by the Gold Company), I think the fourth is likely to make an appearance.

4. Shiera Seastar (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shiera_Seastar)

Quote
Shiera was renowned as a famous beauty and seductress, with long Targaryen silver-gold hair, and a heart-shaped face. Although she had two mismatched eyes, (one blue, the other green), it was said that the "defect" only enhanced her beauty.
She was a great reader, even at an early age, spoke many languages, and maintained a large and arcane library. She also was reputed to share her mother's skill in the dark arts

Her father sired her upon the ninth and last of his mistresses, Lady Serenei of Lys, the last daughter of an ancient but impoverished line of Valyrian nobility. Shiera's mother was disliked by Aegon's courtiers and considered cold and haughty; it was rumored that she was much older than the king, practicing dark arts to retain her youth and beauty. Serenei was considered by many the most lovely of Aegon's mistresses. She died in childbed, bringing forth Shiera, her name meaning "Star of the Sea."
Shiera never married, but took many lovers, and numerous duels were fought for her favor. Her half-brother Bloodraven was her most ardent suitor, and repeatedly proposed marriage to her. Although she refused to marry him, she did share her bed with him. Her other half-brother Bittersteel was said to have also desired her, which only served to increase the hatred between Bloodraven and Bittersteel.
Her relationship with Bloodraven was widely known, and there were rumors that she bathed in the blood of maidens to retain her beauty. She was known to possess a famous necklace, alternating sapphires and emeralds to compliment her unusual eyes.

You can make a case for Shiera having the most concentrated Valyian noble blood of all characters, aging slower and having the Dark arts, which Bloodraven used to disguise his appearance as Ser Maynard (one theory which I think is true, quotes below from The Mystery Knight)

Quote
Dunk whirled. Through the rain, all he could make out was a hooded shape and a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder.
...
Aegon the Unworthy had bedded half the maidens in the realm and fathered bastards on the lot of them, supposedly. Worse, the old king had legitimized them all upon his deathbed; the baseborn ones born of tavern wenches, whores, and shepherd girls, and the Great Bastards whose mothers had been highborn. "We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true."

"And who's to say we're not?" Ser Maynard quipped.

So if she's already in the books as a character I think the two strongest contenders are :-

Lemore (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lemore) or Quaithe (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quaithe)

Lemore becuase Shiera was described as a seductress who spoke many languages, and maintained a large and arcane library.

Or my slightly preferred possibility of Quaithe because she's been one of the few to give Daenerys good advice, uses magic heavily, "mask made of starlight, and the stars whisper in a woman's voice".  It would also align Shiera with Daenerys, Bloodraven with Jon Snow.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 01, 2013, 02:28:16 AM
To elaborate.

If Lyanna is his mother, he's a Stark regardless of what else he might be - as evidenced by the 400 pound wolf that follows him around. He might also be a Targaryen.

Assuming he is both, and if legitimized, he is the currently Aerys's heir, and I think he'd outrank Sansa for winter fell on account of his penis. Though not sure.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on May 01, 2013, 07:22:04 AM
Robb also legitimized him as a Stark before getting ganked.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 01, 2013, 02:02:32 PM
Pretty sure he's either legitimized or he isn't. So it isn't just 'as a stark'.

If legitimisation sticks then the targ side applies too.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on May 01, 2013, 07:44:18 PM
Well, it's sort of tricky because typically the term is used by a father, officially acknowledging a bastard child. In Jon's case a simple decree might make him a Stark, but someone would need to offer some proof of his Targaryen ancestry before anyone would recognize it. Robb noted that Jon was his heir, but word of that doesn't appear to have traveled since Stannis was offering him legitimization in the end of Book 3. Catelyn knows about it, but she hasn't done much talking since coming back as a zombie so the whole situation is sort of up in the air.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 01, 2013, 10:45:50 PM
Technically you don't know if Robb's will either legitimised anyone or who is his heir. We know he discussed Jon with Catelyn, and we know he then gave a will to a group of Lords who conspicuously did not ride to Castle Black following the red wedding.

Howland Reed has knowledge of both the will and the events at the tower of joy.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on May 02, 2013, 12:49:05 AM
I had completely forgotten that Robb sent off a will; it hasn't been mentioned since the Red Wedding has it?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 02, 2013, 01:57:06 PM
No, it is assumed to be at Greywater Watch with Howland Reed, Maege Mormont, and Galbert Glover.

I would assume they've realised the truth about Jon, and that at some point they'll emerge and try to build a faction around him. If someone else is named heir to Robb I'd be surprised, but it is possible. In that case they might try to build a Jon-for-iron-throne, ???for-winterfell ticket. But that seems awfully and unnecessarily complex.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on May 02, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
I begin to suspect Howland Reed is more insidious than currently shown.  He's around when too many big things happen, even if we don't see him.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 02, 2013, 02:40:11 PM
Possibly, his perfect kids suggest otherwise though.

At the very least I expect he's on the right page in understanding the role of magic in current events. The obvious big dislocation this society has to face is when the high born community have to accept the return of magic. That event gives the writer an opportunity to shake all the major factions around, and for good or ill Reed will be in the centre of it.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 02, 2013, 03:10:27 PM
I begin to suspect Howland Reed is more insidious than currently shown.  He's around when too many big things happen, even if we don't see him.

He got beat up by three Squires and had a girl rescue him, maybe that's changed him, but it's a fairly steep ladder to climb to insidious from there.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on May 02, 2013, 03:46:07 PM
That's a super villain origin story right there.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 16, 2013, 09:38:36 AM
I really don't know the convention on spoilers for this.

But the TV seemed to spoil a moderately significant book mystery this week.

Robb Stark has an heir, ergo, Jon might well not be named in his will, since Robb only needs a regent.

This would explain in a pretty satisfactory manner why the witnesses to the will are holed up at the greywater watch. Seems likely Jeyne and the Blackfish are headed the same way.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on May 16, 2013, 09:42:00 AM
Keep in mind, its really iffy about what way they are going with Robbs wife in the TV version.  That same episode where she was writing a letter he couldn't read, hinting at secrets.....  I don't know, I hope not, but I'm just waiting for her to end up being a true backstabber in this version, as opposed to an unwilling participant.  She very well could be lying about the baby along with everything.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on May 16, 2013, 12:34:53 PM
Then there's all this too:
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Westerling/Theories

It's all getting pretty murky between these plot discrepancies and secret letters. Is stuff like changing descriptions sloppy writing or a clue to a secret conspiracy? Some people who have given it a lot of thought seem to believe the latter.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 16, 2013, 02:14:16 PM
I've always felt the change in description was not an accident, but pregnancy isn't the only explanation.

I find it hard to imagine a satisfactory way for TV wife to be corresponding with tywin, but you never know. I could imagine TV wife dying at the red wedding, though that would also be a spoiler, since it tells us Jeyne can't be that significant going forward.

But I can't help thinking an heir explains the (non)behaviour of Mormont, Glover, and Reed better.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Phred on May 17, 2013, 02:32:21 PM
Seeing as the last book came out 3? 4? years ago with no next book in sight and the non readers made their own thread can we go back to the game of thrones thread? 3 seem a bit redundant and the only thing that sparks discussion is the tv show.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on May 17, 2013, 03:15:55 PM
The last book came out 2011, some folks don't want to discuss books in the TV thread because the two are no longer tightly related.  It is odd the TV discussion is happening here vs. in that thread, though.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ingmar on May 17, 2013, 07:45:33 PM
As of 4 posts ago, we were still talking about the books. I don't think there's a topic drift problem.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 18, 2013, 03:17:21 AM
I'm not sure I get the issue.

Conversation above is about Jeyne Westerling being missing from half way through 3 to the end of 5 and whether she is or isn't pregnant, and how that might explain the (in)action of other characters in those books.

The TV show show references are because in an episode written by GRRM the equivalent character said 'hey guyz I'm preggers'.



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on May 18, 2013, 05:52:23 AM
Maybe we need a fourth thread that I can avoid discussing which of the other three to post in.  :drill:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on June 03, 2013, 02:47:01 PM
So I was pretty sold on Martin's fake out re Jeyne being pregnant.

And the return of balance to the universe well handled.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on June 04, 2013, 10:08:01 AM
I know the TV show can't spend any time on minor characters but I wish Dacey Mormont and the small John would at least been identified before the slaughter.  I saw a really fat guy with twirly mustaches and a mermaid pin sitting next to the Blackfish so they obviously took the trouble to try to match the extras to their book counterparts.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: K9 on October 24, 2013, 08:28:37 AM
Saw this, thought it was pretty cool. Word clouds of all of Arya's chapters from the first five books.

(http://i.imgur.com/bMsCgI5.jpg)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: K9 on March 09, 2014, 05:07:52 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/fZiA1nK.jpg) (http://imgur.com/fZiA1nK)

George RR Martin has announced that he has finished writing The World of Ice and FIre, and it should be hitting the shelves in October. (http://grrm.livejournal.com/360175.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

 :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Engels on March 09, 2014, 05:24:08 PM
That's like writing the Simarillion before finishing the Return of The King.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on March 09, 2014, 05:32:14 PM
Ok, I think he might as well take out an ad in Vanity that says, "I HAVE WRITER'S BLOCK OK, FUCK OFF".


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on March 09, 2014, 07:55:20 PM
Writers block or he's bored with the series.  I remember reading he's done similar with his other projects, too.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on March 09, 2014, 08:28:45 PM
I am sure that his writers block will miraculously cure itself once HBO gets within a season of the end of the current books.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Pennilenko on March 09, 2014, 08:54:26 PM
Everybody knows that gobs of money is the best cure for mental blockage.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on March 10, 2014, 05:55:50 AM
I don't think so in this case. He's got gobs of money already. He just is clearly having a hard time finishing it. It might be that he's written himself into a corner: too many stories that need closure, and too much of a commitment to not providing neat closure to most of the stories. Now if this was generic fantasy series #55,504, it would be pretty easy:



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on March 10, 2014, 06:23:43 AM
2/10 no Gendry, Hound, threesome or lesbianism. Would not read again.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on March 10, 2014, 06:37:02 AM
Oh, I vaguely remember him saying at one point that the decision to split the fourth book into two parallel sets if characters instead of shortening the length of time it covered was a mistake and led him to paint himself into a corner he couldn't get out of.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: shiznitz on March 10, 2014, 08:56:22 AM
I am 30% through Dance with Dragons and I am enjoying it quite a bit.  I held off reading it for so long because I heard so many middling reviews of it.  Yes, it is of a different pace than the first three, but it is better than Feast (which I also liked and actually re-skimmed before I started Dragons) which was still a good book on its own.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: HaemishM on March 10, 2014, 08:59:19 AM
I haven't started Dance yet, but Feast was NOT a good book. It was about 1/2 of a good book and 1/2 a book of stories that went nowhere, did nothing and felt like filler with lots of important events happening somewhere off-page.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on March 10, 2014, 09:02:26 AM
Oh, Gendry and Hound are implicitly covered in the big wrap-it-up fan-favorite end battle. Basically just think the Battle of Hogwarts, GoT style. Gobs of fan service.

Threesomes are for when you're still wasting time; if you're going for the quick wrap-up generic fantasy ending #236, the threesomes need to wait for after the end of the big battle. Happy endings!


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: shiznitz on March 10, 2014, 11:26:11 AM
I haven't started Dance yet, but Feast was NOT a good book. It was about 1/2 of a good book and 1/2 a book of stories that went nowhere, did nothing and felt like filler with lots of important events happening somewhere off-page.

Well I enjoyed all the Brienne parts and since those were spread over the entire book, it kept me interested.  Sam and Gilly can die in a wagon fire.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: HaemishM on March 10, 2014, 11:29:19 AM
I would have enjoyed the Brienne parts more if I felt they were leading to anything. Most of the book just seemed to be time-wasting filler while the kingdom disintegrates.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Lantyssa on March 10, 2014, 02:09:17 PM
His choosing to split the books based on geography did the readers a disservice considering most of the likable characters are stuck over in Dances.  That and nothing of much significance occurred in Feast.  Those two could benefit from collating them together.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: pants on March 10, 2014, 02:32:28 PM
Most of the book just seemed to be time-wasting filler while the kingdom disintegrates.

Yup, I think thats his problem there.  He is clearly wanting to show how shit everything has gone to - but I can't help feeling he could have done that quicker.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on March 10, 2014, 02:42:14 PM
His choosing to take 5-6 years to release books pretty much ensures whatever he puts out will be a disappointment.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on March 10, 2014, 03:11:42 PM
I don't think so in this case. He's got gobs of money already. He just is clearly having a hard time finishing it. It might be that he's written himself into a corner: too many stories that need closure, and too much of a commitment to not providing neat closure to most of the stories. Now if this was generic fantasy series #55,504, it would be pretty easy:


Mind if I repost this on facebook the day Season 4 starts, as a "spoiler"?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Samwise on March 28, 2014, 06:35:27 PM
CHAPTER FROM THE NEXT BOOK OMG OMG OMG OMG (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/)

Spoilers, obviously.



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 28, 2014, 07:56:30 PM
CHAPTER FROM THE NEXT BOOK OMG OMG OMG OMG (http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/)

Spoilers, obviously.



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Lucas on April 17, 2014, 10:01:51 AM
Finally, another update via Martin's twitter!!

https://twitter.com/_GRRM_/status/456824016641486848/photo/1


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on April 17, 2014, 01:06:17 PM
Finally, another update via Martin's twitter!!

https://twitter.com/_GRRM_/status/456824016641486848/photo/1
A bit disappointing - that is exactly what I thought that character would do.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Engels on April 17, 2014, 02:23:04 PM
Typo on the first sentence is lols.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 05, 2014, 02:20:22 PM
Probably buying time since the source material is running out.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Chimpy on May 05, 2014, 02:30:59 PM
Probably buying time since the source material is running out.

At this point in the story the source material is about as action packed as a Jane Austen novel.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Soulflame on May 05, 2014, 02:35:17 PM
It contains almost as much fantasy too.

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Rendakor on May 05, 2014, 02:50:09 PM
They're still a ways behind the books at this point, so that's not a valid excuse.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Threash on May 05, 2014, 02:53:52 PM
Only on some of the storylines, some are basically caught up.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Rasix on May 05, 2014, 02:55:00 PM
I imagine they're going for a book 4 and book 5 as separate seasons at this point.  They need to give Martin time to DO SOMETHING and probably flesh out the timelines for when they have to pass him (and I have to go into hiding from the internet).  Get used to this pacing, it's only going to get worse.   The internet is going to go crazy with all of the important characters that won't be dying anytime soon.

Only on some of the storylines, some are basically caught up.

Isn't Dany basically done with her book 3 content?


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: eldaec on May 05, 2014, 03:19:31 PM
They've said they are going to do book 4 and 5 chronologically, half in season 5, half in season 6.

That said, this makes no real sense since they also said they'd aim to finish in 7 seasons.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Teleku on May 05, 2014, 03:21:20 PM
My comparison to LOST is because I think they are stalling and the writers have no idea where they are heading. So instead we get fans telling us how nothing happening is just fine BECAUSE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT FAPFAPFAP. Meanwhile, I just wanted to know what was happening with the monsters.

Except in this case I'm fairly damn sure they don't know because the original author hasn't finished anything.
Have you read the books?  They aren't stalling or making shit up.  They're following the stories perfectly.  This is exactly what happened in the books at this time.  Hell, almost all of book 4 was people wondering around doing random shit that affected fuck all.  Though with the TV writing, I'm sure it will be much more entertaining.   :awesome_for_real:  If anything, they are pushing things ahead faster than the books because they are setting up stuff right now that happens in book 4, that didn't have any setup in book 3.

This is nothing like lost where they were very much just making shit up to keep the series running.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: MediumHigh on May 05, 2014, 09:10:22 PM
I was surprised they did the reveal for the murder this early.  That doesn't come till later books.  But I guess they needed to do more to flesh out the characters this season and show just how dangerous everybody is.

Actually yes and no. Dance and Feast were suppose to be one book originally but for obvious reasons split up.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: angry.bob on May 06, 2014, 10:24:00 AM
They need to give Martin time to DO SOMETHING and probably flesh out the timelines for when they have to pass him (and I have to go into hiding from the internet).  

Give him time? Hasn't he been writing this shit for 30 years or something with like seven years between books? I could impregnate a woman, raise the child, send it to college, and babysit my new grandchildren in that amount of time. Looking at pics of the guy he's on the verge of his internal organs exploding and leaving the whole mess without an ending.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 06, 2014, 10:36:21 AM
Just do what Jordan did, make notes on how it's supposed to finish, and let Brandon Sanderson fill in the details.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Threash on May 06, 2014, 11:07:29 AM
Martin doesn't need more time, he needs motivation.  The show catching up to him and spoiling his books might encourage him.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 07, 2014, 11:33:36 AM
Game of Thrones was never supposed to be straight-up fantasy, though, and you know that.  At least no more than The Tudors was considered fantasy.  Most of the magic in this world happens off-screen or in extremely limited capacities, and the focus is on the political intrigue and sexy goings-on behind the scenes.  The fantasy aspects are mostly there as window dressing.

Literally, the first chapter of the books have a guy getting his head ripped off by his zombie captain raised by ice wraiths.

I don't know what you mean by "never supposed to be" but when the chapter introduces ice zombies, I'm thinking that's not the case.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: apocrypha on May 07, 2014, 11:38:51 AM
I'm agreeing with you schild, just slightly less vehemently.  :grin:


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Phildo on May 07, 2014, 11:49:10 AM
And then the ice zombies disappear for basically the rest of the next five books, and the dragons do fuckall  90% of the time except act as a minor deterrent.  Emphasis on the minor, since people still insist on fucking with Danaerys.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Samwise on May 07, 2014, 12:07:10 PM
The ice zombies are in the prologue but not the first chapter IIRC -- the first chapter is Bran watching Ned execute the deserter.  It's been a while since I read the first book but I remember GRRM saying in an interview that he wrote that chapter before he had any of the rest of the story or world figured out.  The ice zombies in the prologue set up why the deserter was there, but the deserter himself isn't important or interesting anyway.  It's all just scene dressing.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: schild on May 07, 2014, 12:08:08 PM
I'm sorry, but that motherfucker needs an editor. You don't get to introduce fucking ice zombies and dragons and white walkers and whatever fuck the else and not do anything with them.

I hope HBO says fuckit and gets their own writers to tell the story.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: schild on May 07, 2014, 12:08:37 PM
Someone obsessed with fanfic should go back and cut 3/4 of every novel out and make one actual good novel.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 07, 2014, 12:10:10 PM
Exactly, yall are handwaving away the prologue like it's nothing. That's the first place the reader sets eyeballs to page. That's your tone-setter.

You don't get to introduce ice zombies in the opening to your first book and then not address it as a fantasy piece.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Threash on May 07, 2014, 12:16:25 PM
The ice walkers and Dany finally getting over to the seven kingdoms are the end of the story, you all are asking for the climax to happen in the middle.  We are talking second half of the last book shit.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: schild on May 07, 2014, 12:21:06 PM
There's no reason to crunch that shit into the last book that he may never write due to massive heart failure.

He's just a bad writer who wrote a great first book and now people can't fucking stop reading them.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 07, 2014, 12:37:19 PM
There's way too many people that bow to the alter of character development and ridiculous journey.

It's really really easy to "develop" characters by slowly revealing backstory the author already knows, and by making them act differently after a terrible event. Bravo. And yet people eat that up like hotcakes.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Soulflame on May 07, 2014, 12:53:13 PM
I've possibly said this before.  I bought the first book based on reading the prologue.  I thought I was getting a high fantasy novel.

Instead, I had purchased the 100 years war or War of the Roses (I forget which) with ice zombies and dragons as a minor backdrop.

I was not pleased.  I gave up about 1/3 of the way through book 3, thinking that unless the walkers annihilated everyone, the ending was going to not be good enough for me.

That he's basically arsed around since then, with a high probability of not ever finishing the series, fills me with a large amount of glee.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: schild on May 07, 2014, 01:05:00 PM
I couldn't even get through the prologue + first chapter of the first book. It was awful. I tried reading it right after I came off Black Company.

Now, that's a few thousand pages of people doing stuff, being political, AND walking around. It's like the holy grail of neckbeard literature.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: tazelbain on May 07, 2014, 01:10:45 PM
I don't think he gives a shit about 'pleasing the fans'.  He writes what he wants to write.  If he wanted to please the fans, Robb Stark would be sitting on the Iron Throne using Joffrey's head as a footstool.
I am saying he wise to enjoy adulation of the fans now because its going vanish when the ending inevitability disappoints.  These popular, long running series can never live up to the hype that builds around them.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tannhauser on May 07, 2014, 02:50:17 PM
Not going to disagree with you there.  I'm old enough to remember the Wild Cards books he had a hand in.  First two books were great then they trickled off to crap.  True he didn't write every story but I saw the same thing happening here.  That (and the Red Wedding) is why I quit at Book 2 of GoT.  He's not a closer.

I would love to be proven wrong though.

This season is boring.  They resolve who killed Jon Arryn like a reminder to pick up dry cleaning.  At least the sword fight was good.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Chimpy on May 07, 2014, 03:48:38 PM
You have to remember that Martin's early success as a writer was writing for television. Television is almost never written with an end planned from the get go and it rarely continues to have the same lustre as it progresses.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Samwise on May 07, 2014, 04:09:31 PM
Instead, I had purchased the 100 years war or War of the Roses (I forget which) with ice zombies and dragons as a minor backdrop.

You hit the nail on the head.  Here's a quote from the recent Rolling Stone interview (http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423):

Quote
I did consider at a very early stage – going all the way back to 1991 – whether to include overt fantasy elements, and at one point thought of writing a Wars of the Roses novel. But the problem with straight historical fiction is you know what's going to happen. If you know anything about the Wars of the Roses, you know that the princes in the tower aren't going to escape. I wanted to make it more unexpected, bring in some more twists and turns. The main question was the dragons: Do I include dragons? I knew I wanted to have the Targaryens have their symbol be the dragons; the Lannisters have the lions, the Starks have the wolves. Should these things be literal here? Should the Targaryens actually have dragons? I was discussing this with a friend, writer Phyllis Eisenstein – I dedicated the third book to her – and she said, "George, it's a fantasy – you've got to put in the dragons."

So, yeah, the fantasy elements were in fact an afterthought.   :awesome_for_real:

I loved Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, though, and most of what Tolkien wrote, so of course I love this stuff too and don't particularly care if there's a fight scene in every chapter.  People who signed up for zombies fighting dragons on a roller coaster are gonna have to wait a while.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: schild on May 07, 2014, 04:42:52 PM
You liked the Baroque Cycle?

Like a knife through my heart. Cryptonomicon was so good and that shit was just unreadable.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Samwise on May 07, 2014, 04:49:10 PM
I actually thought Cryptonomicon was muddled and rushed by comparison and didn't enjoy it as much.  Baroque Cycle was loooooong and could have used an editor and/or fewer story lines, but it did at least have a satisfying ending, which is more than you can say about a lot of Stephenson's work.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: schild on May 07, 2014, 04:54:19 PM
Well, cyberpunk is basically universally shit. Cryptonomicon was muddled, but great to read. Baroque Cycle felt like reading a shitty bible.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Soulflame on May 07, 2014, 06:44:07 PM
Oh, wow, a shout out to Phyllis Eisenstein.  I can't hate on him for that.

 :heart:


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Viin on May 07, 2014, 09:15:06 PM
Reamde was good though.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: disKret on May 08, 2014, 12:25:27 AM
Reamde was good though.  :awesome_for_real:

Wtf are You talking about. After all his books Ramde was fucking boring with just one interesting idea of "future"-MMO. The rest was boring thrash.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Ironwood on May 08, 2014, 01:47:51 AM
I've clearly entered into the Season of Agreeing With Schild.

It's uncomfortable.

Baroque Cycle was far, far, far too big and unwieldy and, really, didn't make much sense really.  (and I don't mean it wasn't understandable).  It was like he took Cryptonomicon and shoved helium into it until it was Stephen King Huge.  Bearing in mind that Crypto contained a fair bit of bloat, and you're looking at one fat pig of a work.

While Wife-Unit is enjoying GoT hugely (mostly due to it suddenly having non-book shit in it so she can be surprised) I've pretty much given up on it.  It may as well be the 'Sophie Turner Show' for me, since that's really the only reason I'm watching.  The character interactions are kinda funny, but if I wanted that shit, I'd watch, you know, a comedy show.  I don't even like the tits anymore, since this season has just taken a really, really sharp turn into Rape-Land.

As for the fat one, it's quite clear he has NO Clue what he's doing.  The show is just going to have to go it alone. 


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Khaldun on May 08, 2014, 07:42:56 AM
The problem is re: the Wars of the Roses/100 Years War as a model for this narrative, that the middle of those events is full of chaos as life unravels. That's important to the functioning of any retelling of those events (and it's not incidental that the most avid retellers, like Shakespeare, were propagandists for the regimes that re-established order). But it's a storytelling challenge: how do you make chaos interesting, and how do you make it something other than one long rape-and-murder-fest? It's really the same issue as a post-apocalyptic story, and in many ways Game of Thrones IS a post-apocalypse story in which the main protagonists don't *know* yet that they're in the post-apocalypse.

The only way to tell a post-apocalypse story is either to have a few islands of civilization desperately holding out against the chaos or to follow a few charismatic and basically 'good' survivors trying to hold on to decency. That's kind of where the next season (and the last half of this season) of GoT could go, but Martin's books don't help much with that because of the way he fragments the story thematically and follows characters every which-where.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: HaemishM on May 08, 2014, 11:49:14 AM
The episodes since Joffery died have definitely tailed off.

To be fair, that's what happens to the books too. If it weren't for the stuff they've added this season, it'd be about 7 episodes long instead of 10.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 08, 2014, 12:59:05 PM
A Feast for Crows is just awful. Nothing happens in that entire book.

You could literally sum up the entire action of that book in a page, and skip it.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Chimpy on May 12, 2014, 05:44:57 PM
I always felt she was very much like that in the books. She is generally pretty soft-hearted and she never really comes across as comfortable being stern.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: eldaec on May 13, 2014, 12:07:12 AM
I always felt she was very much like that in the books. She is generally pretty soft-hearted and she never really comes across as comfortable being stern.

Reading the books I thought the author intended heart and soul of a concrete elephant but wrote it badly so it came off as weak and feeble woman.

All of his non-sociopathic female characters are the same to be honest.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Chimpy on May 13, 2014, 04:43:10 AM
Well of course his non-sociopathic women are terribly written, the guy obviously understands women as well as your typical "visit GenCon every year" neckbeard  :why_so_serious: .


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Soulflame on May 13, 2014, 04:44:23 PM
Tyrion was the only worthwhile thing in the books as well.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Rendakor on May 13, 2014, 09:59:48 PM
Which is why Feast was such garbage.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: eldaec on May 14, 2014, 12:20:15 AM
Tyrion was the only worthwhile thing in the books as well.

I get why people follow along tv shows that frustrate them, but seriously? You finished off 5 fucking enormous novels after concluding only 1 in 10 chapters was worth reading? Do you hate yourself or something?


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Soulflame on May 14, 2014, 08:27:14 AM
Tyrion was the only worthwhile thing in the books as well.

I get why people follow along tv shows that frustrate them, but seriously? You finished off 5 fucking enormous novels after concluding only 1 in 10 chapters was worth reading? Do you hate yourself or something?
No.  I read book 1, and was horrified when Martin killed off Ned Stark.  Literally the only likable character in the entire series, and Martin kills him off.

I read book 2, and wished death upon everyone but Tyrion.

I tried to read book 3, but gave up only a few chapters in.

I read threads here and there on GoT, because I wanted so much to like the series, but just didn't.  Everything I've read since then confirms my notion that Tyrion is the only somewhat likable character, and that everyone else should be turned into a snow zombie.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Riggswolfe on May 20, 2014, 11:54:01 AM
Maybe I'm not remembering events in the books but the show feels like it is accelerating quickly. That said, next season will have to introduce all the Dorn stuff from the later books which will bring all this momentum to a screeching halt when paired with Dany's tale of doing a lot of nothing.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: eldaec on May 20, 2014, 12:07:04 PM
Maybe I'm not remembering events in the books but the show feels like it is accelerating quickly. That said, next season will have to introduce all the Dorn stuff from the later books which will bring all this momentum to a screeching halt when paired with Dany's tale of doing a lot of nothing.

In terms of pages per episode I'm fairly certain this is the slowest season yet.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: tazelbain on May 20, 2014, 12:17:27 PM
I wonder how long till GRRM gets placed on the same shelf as Robert Jordan.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: schild on May 20, 2014, 12:27:16 PM
Shouldn't he have been on the same shelf since book 1. From everyone I've talked to about the series, it's all shit shit shit in hindsight. Sweet at the time, total crap once it wore off.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Numtini on May 20, 2014, 12:39:20 PM
Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Riggswolfe on May 20, 2014, 12:45:48 PM
Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.

I feel the exact opposite. The Jordan books were a chore and got worse as time went on. Every damn woman in his books was the same character and all of them were in love with Rand Al'thor. The Jordan books are the only books in my entire life where I've said "fuck it, I'm skipping these chapters."  The first 3 Games of Thrones book were pretty damn good but these last two suffer from Jordanitis. It's a thing!


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 20, 2014, 01:12:21 PM
Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.

Comparably, they are the same. Jordan's books turned to shit by book 5.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Rasix on May 20, 2014, 01:17:16 PM
Hey, Dumai's Wells was in 6.  Of course, that's pretty much the shark jumping point, until the books get back on the rails (much) later.

As much as we like to rail against books 4&5 of A Song of Ice and Fire, they just don't compare to the slow books of Jordan.  Jordan turned slow into a braid-pulling art form.

As is, I think book 3 could have easily been one longer season, but they need to stall.  These next two seasons are going to piss people off.  It'll be like the middling slow seasons in Deadwood and Sopranos.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: HaemishM on May 20, 2014, 01:41:23 PM
Jordan was a lot more readable. I still haven't finished the last book. It's like slogging through mud.

I feel the exact opposite. The Jordan books were a chore and got worse as time went on. Every damn woman in his books was the same character

This. SO MUCH THIS.

I find I tear through Martin books while the Jordan stuff drags. Maybe it's being dragged down by all the braid-tugging.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Phildo on May 20, 2014, 01:43:04 PM
I feel like I just lost time while reading some of Jordan's later books.  At least I can point to things I remember from the last two Ice & Fire books.

Can't disagree about there being some strong similarities, though.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Shannow on May 20, 2014, 01:49:44 PM
I wonder if Book 6's release will be tied to the start of Season 5 and/or we might see some fairly large divergence from the plot of the books in the TV series.

Frankly I find the whole process kind of fascinating, a book series being written at the same time as TV series of the book is being made...with the TV series popularity does the tail begin to wag the dog? Has it affected GRRM's writing?


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Paelos on May 20, 2014, 01:53:02 PM
I wonder if Book 6's release will be tied to the start of Season 5 and/or we might see some fairly large divergence from the plot of the books in the TV series.

Frankly I find the whole process kind of fascinating, a book series being written at the same time as TV series of the book is being made...with the TV series popularity does the tail begin to wag the dog? Has it affected GRRM's writing?

If it has, it can only affect it for the better. TV shows usually demand action and conflict.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Ingmar on May 20, 2014, 02:00:07 PM
I don't think they're even close to as meandering and pointless as later Jordan books, personally. That's some hyperbole-cancer action right there.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Typhon on May 20, 2014, 02:02:30 PM
I read the second book, with nary a mention of the Whitewalkers and said, 'this fucker is trying to Jordan me", and didn't go a book further.

As far as I'm concerned it's not hyperbole in the least, it's spot-on.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Phildo on May 20, 2014, 02:09:55 PM
Again, the White Walkers are the fantasy window dressing.  Or the dessert, depending on how you want to look at it.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Yegolev on May 20, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
What happened to that Ice and Fire book thread?


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Riggswolfe on May 20, 2014, 02:26:18 PM
I read the second book, with nary a mention of the Whitewalkers and said, 'this fucker is trying to Jordan me", and didn't go a book further.

As far as I'm concerned it's not hyperbole in the least, it's spot-on.

If he sticks to finishing it in two books* I'll disagree. If a decade from now he's working on book 10 then I'll not only be done with this shit but I'll be in total agreement with you.

*Finishing it in two books does not mean splitting each of them into two long ass books that are "all the same book".



Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Samwise on May 20, 2014, 02:29:05 PM
What happened to that Ice and Fire book thread?

All right, all right.  Gimme a sec to scrub up.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Samwise on May 20, 2014, 02:40:07 PM
Operation successful.  Some loss of sensation in the extremities is to be expected.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Phildo on May 20, 2014, 09:22:11 PM
But I don't want to post in this thread, damn you!


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 21, 2014, 01:31:22 AM
I don't give a rat's ass how many books he writes so long as I enjoy reading them.

And fuck all you haters, I enjoyed Feast.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on May 21, 2014, 06:54:49 AM
Why?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: tazelbain on May 21, 2014, 06:57:24 AM
It's all just maneuvering so Podrick can take the Iron Throne.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 21, 2014, 07:53:09 AM
Why?

Because there was enough character stuff to keep me interested. I liked Sam's journey, I liked watching KL fall apart, I liked the emergence of the sparrows, I liked the psycho Stark chapters, I liked that it starred to fill out the world beyond that directly affecting the 3 Targaryean Sues, I liked the Kingsmoot, I even started to like Brienne. It wasn't as good as Storm, sure, but I enjoyed it.

And on a forum where people unironically post in defence of Pacific Rim, KotOR2, First Contact, the Courtship of Princess Leia, World of Warcraft, Iron Man 3, and Hearthstone, I think Feast gets way more shit than it is owed.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Paelos on May 21, 2014, 08:03:13 AM
Cersei's stuff in King's Landing was the highlight of the book for me, mostly because I got to see a character I hated go to pieces.

My problem with it is that it's 1100 pages. There's constant overuse of internal conflict in this book. I don't mind character development, but it's handled poorly and repetitively in my mind here. We get it, the characters are torn between love/duty/trust/role. Okay FFS, move on to some actual plot flow.

The issue is that Dance and Feast should have been one book, with about 1,000 pages cut.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: WayAbvPar on May 21, 2014, 08:36:56 AM
Why?

Because there was enough character stuff to keep me interested. I liked Sam's journey, I liked watching KL fall apart, I liked the emergence of the sparrows, I liked the psycho Stark chapters, I liked that it starred to fill out the world beyond that directly affecting the 3 Targaryean Sues, I liked the Kingsmoot, I even started to like Brienne. It wasn't as good as Storm, sure, but I enjoyed it.

And on a forum where people unironically post in defence of Pacific Rim, KotOR2, First Contact, the Courtship of Princess Leia, World of Warcraft, Iron Man 3, and Hearthstone, I think Feast gets way more shit than it is owed.

This. Weakest of the series, but still better than SO MUCH other stuff, especially in the genre.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on May 21, 2014, 10:15:02 AM
The problem I have with the books is that, outside of the first one, I just can't re-read them. They were good the first time but unlike most other authors/series in the genre which I can reread multiple times (even Jordan in his amish bondage fantasy worst) I just can't re-read them.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on May 21, 2014, 10:16:52 AM
I think I've read the first 3 about 4 times now.  :ye_gods:  Even read 4 twice.

I would start another re-read in prep for 6, but I just don't have the free time anymore. 


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on May 21, 2014, 11:22:35 AM
You have several years to finish :P Also, this is one of the more rereadable series ever.  Some stuff completely changes meaning knowing what comes next, there is so much foreshadowing and hints of what's to come that only jump out at you on subsequent readings.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: WayAbvPar on May 21, 2014, 11:39:06 AM
Re-reading them is actually very interesting. There are TONS of hints about future events woven into dreams and prophecies and shit. Actually kinda cool how much you can see forshadowed.

e- Threash said pretty much the same thing  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on May 21, 2014, 12:15:40 PM
You have several years to finish :P Also, this is one of the more rereadable series ever.  Some stuff completely changes meaning knowing what comes next, there is so much foreshadowing and hints of what's to come that only jump out at you on subsequent readings.
This. I'll probably do rereads for 6 and 7 (and Sanderson's inevitable 8, 9 and 10) once they have firm dates.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: murdoc on May 22, 2014, 07:49:01 AM
You have several years to finish :P Also, this is one of the more rereadable series ever.  Some stuff completely changes meaning knowing what comes next, there is so much foreshadowing and hints of what's to come that only jump out at you on subsequent readings.

I have read the first 3 books 5-6 times each and the last two a couple of times. I think it's extremely rereadable.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Venkman on May 23, 2014, 06:45:37 PM
I have read through entire series of far worse storytellling just because the world was interesting enough to keep going.

I think some of the hate here and in most places around here (and shit, the whole internet) is because of the tendency of western culture forum posters to try and find new ways to raise the bar on hyperbole. or, all of this:

And on a forum where people unironically post in defence of Pacific Rim, KotOR2, First Contact, the Courtship of Princess Leia, World of Warcraft, Iron Man 3, and Hearthstone, I think Feast gets way more shit than it is owed.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on May 23, 2014, 10:50:46 PM
My inability to reread the books multiple times is more about the fact that I, personally, just don't feel re-"hooked" on them like I did the first read. I even liked some of the bits in Feast and actuallly think Dragons was worse overall even with the "better" character arcs.

I read through the whole series through Feast twice, but when I tried to re-read them since then I have stalled out no later than about 3/4 through the second book.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on May 26, 2014, 12:15:56 PM
I wonder if Book 6's release will be tied to the start of Season 5 and/or we might see some fairly large divergence from the plot of the books in the TV series.

Frankly I find the whole process kind of fascinating, a book series being written at the same time as TV series of the book is being made...with the TV series popularity does the tail begin to wag the dog? Has it affected GRRM's writing?

Fine with me. The HBO people are doing a great job editing GRRM's story which at points get quite turgid. GRRM put together a fantastic fantasy world, but isn't exactly the greatest writer, and he doesn't seem to enjoy writing all that much either given the pace at which he does it, and how he himself has described it as basically forcing himself to do it. I mean what would you rather be doing in that situation? Sitting alone in your office all day labouring over wordy paragraphs you don't particularly enjoy writing, or hanging around on the game of thrones set with all the cool actors and staff, or at HBO headquarters? Probably at this point GRRM is open to working with them on wrapping it all up in a way that's more coordinated with the TV show, probably including getting help on the writing.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Tannhauser on June 15, 2014, 08:18:35 AM
I don't know, I know plenty of people who quit before A Dance with Dragons because 50 good pages doesn't make 1054 shitty pages worth reading. Which is basically exactly what you just described.

I quit after the first two books.  They were well written and I enjoyed them, but after the Red Wedding I knew there was no future for me with the books.  Well that and everyone says that the last two books go off in the weeds.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones
Post by: Threash on June 15, 2014, 09:00:35 AM
Red wedding was on the third book.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Tannhauser on June 15, 2014, 11:50:09 AM
First off, I wandered into the wrong thread!  Second, I knew someone was going to be confused about my Red Wedding statement.  I read the first two books then watched the Red Wedding episode then quit buying the books right there and then. 

I do admit he built an amazing fantasy world, but he's pretty rough on it's inhabitants.  Plus, I don't think he finishes it in book form.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on June 16, 2014, 02:31:04 PM
I'm betting that sometime in 2015 we'll get an announcement that the TV show will end their story differently than the books. 

I can't imagine that GRRM wants the show to 'spoil' his books, and they keep dropping elements from the show that seem like they're key based upon what we've seen in the books.  I think we'll see book 6 released before season 6 starts on TV (that gives him 2 years), and that book 6 will still heavily inform seasons 5 through 7 - but I think book 7 and season 7 end up being dramatically different - as in different people survive and perhaps a different person ends up on the Iron Throne.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: kaid on June 16, 2014, 02:56:36 PM
I'm betting that sometime in 2015 we'll get an announcement that the TV show will end their story differently than the books. 

I can't imagine that GRRM wants the show to 'spoil' his books, and they keep dropping elements from the show that seem like they're key based upon what we've seen in the books.  I think we'll see book 6 released before season 6 starts on TV (that gives him 2 years), and that book 6 will still heavily inform seasons 5 through 7 - but I think book 7 and season 7 end up being dramatically different - as in different people survive and perhaps a different person ends up on the Iron Throne.


I think they will come to largely similar endings but may get there differently. Frankly at the glacial pace the author writes at and the fact he seems to be having more fun just flitting around the globe than actually finishing the series I think HBO is our best chance at some closure to this story.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Venkman on June 16, 2014, 05:28:53 PM
That.

You can split the details, but the endings really gotta match otherwise what's the point? Just spin off a separate TV show like "Game of Thrones: North of the Wall" or something if you want to have creative freedom or need to adhere to artist contracts or whatever.

Otherwise, imagine Harry Potter having endings that differed between the book and the movie. That just wouldn't fly at all :-) (though I guess book 7 came out even before they needed a script for movie 7?).


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on June 16, 2014, 05:29:59 PM
I think they will come to largely similar endings but may get there differently. Frankly at the glacial pace the author writes at and the fact he seems to be having more fun just flitting around the globe than actually finishing the series I think HBO is our best chance at some closure to this story.
If not HBO, than Brandon Sanderson. :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on June 18, 2014, 10:02:25 AM
Lots of adaptions end differently than the books.  Quite frankly, if it wasn't written by a US author, the US screen adaption USUALLY changes the ending.  GRRM is mostly US, but his writing is not restricted to the US tropes.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on June 23, 2014, 11:36:59 AM
It kind of is, he's just better than most at making you overlook the trope until it hits.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Tale on June 26, 2014, 08:30:12 PM
Quite frankly, if it wasn't written by a US author, the US screen adaption USUALLY changes the ending.  GRRM is mostly US, but his writing is not restricted to the US tropes.

Speaking of GRRM being a US writer, his style inconsistencies often bother me. One moment he's adapting Olde English rules for how people speak in Westeros. The next, he entirely drops it and a character says "I'll write you", an invention of American English. Outside the US, it's "I'll write to you".

He's entitled to make up the rules of his creation, but the mish-mash of US and original English gets a bit bizarre. It's probably just that I use British and Australian English for a living.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: K9 on January 01, 2016, 05:58:41 AM
Well this doesn't bode well... (http://grrm.livejournal.com/462643.html)

One of the first comments:

Quote
Have you ever lost any chapter from Winds? Screen it lol

Response

Quote
Never. And you know why? Because I write my fiction with WordStar 4.0 on a DOS machine. Stable as a rock, with none of the glitches of Windows-based systems.

Which doesn't fill me with confidence. It wouldn't amaze me if there is only a single copy of his TWOW draft stored on a single 17 year old computer.

Also, the dude needs to stop blogging about the Hugo awards and finish his damn story.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on January 01, 2016, 06:07:14 AM
Guys a dick and will not finish for one reason.  The story will be finished by HBO in 2 years and he'll say some bullshit about there being no point and there's other stories to tell.

He was bored three books in. If it hadn't taken off the way it did we wouldn't even be this far.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on January 01, 2016, 06:09:55 AM
There is nothing new about him using his ancient machine to write this stuff. He has talked about it all the time.

I noticed that he wrote a Prequel book when I was at the Library a couple weeks ago: "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms".

I think we are definitely looking at a Robert Jordan scenario where he kicks the bucket with several books left.

Plus, what Merusk beat me to. The dude doesn't care about anything but the money it makes him and he is probably making several times what the book sales would get him from HBO for the series.

And frankly, the books have been mostly shit since at best the third book.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on January 01, 2016, 06:23:54 AM
It's not a prequel book, it's a collection of the three short stories he has already written.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sky on January 01, 2016, 08:21:42 AM
I don't get why everyone wants him to finish, since as mentioned, it was a good open-ended trilogy.

So I don't hate on G man, in fact I adore the guy because he's a huge mini collector and patronizes a bunch of great painters for his collection. He's a holy grail patron, and there are only a handful of them in the world!


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: HaemishM on January 01, 2016, 10:36:45 AM
The dude doesn't care about anything but the money it makes him and he is probably making several times what the book sales would get him from HBO for the series.

Even "NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER" books make shit compared to the kind of money you can get selling screenplays or film rights for movies or TV. I was fucking flabbergasted when I saw the actual numbers. Minimum according to Screenwriters Guild for just selling the rights to someone who actually writes the screenplay is $30k with about $3-$6k up front even if the goddamn screenplay never gets sold. Put that number up against something like Stephanie Meyer's advance on one of the later Twilight books (which has sold a bazillion fucking copies) was about $45k which has to be made up by sales before she gets another goddamn dime. If you actually sell the screenplay for a movie, minimum is $300k. The disparity in dollars between book sales and movies is just goddamn sick.

Hence the reason I'm adapting my first novel into a screenplay and shopping it. Because fuck...


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Lucas on January 02, 2016, 03:07:44 AM
Winds of Winter update:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: MediumHigh on January 02, 2016, 03:47:20 AM
Memoirs of a hack writer....


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Threash on January 02, 2016, 09:37:23 AM
If i was him there would be no way in hell i would spend the last few years of my life miserably doing a chore i hate to keep a buncha nerds happy that are going to be disappointed anyways.  Let HBO finish the story, then just tell people "yup, that's how it ends".


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on January 02, 2016, 10:37:26 AM
That is not how you get your ego stroked and the man is vanglorious in ways I haven't seen from authors in a long ass time.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: HaemishM on January 02, 2016, 12:27:23 PM
Or in other words, he is a writer.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on January 02, 2016, 01:11:43 PM
Haem, he would have made a fuckload more from book sales than from TV money. Getting the TV show means money because it is publicity for the books, much more than it means money for the rights.

He has sold a lot of books. He'd sold a lot before the series even came out on TV, but now?  :grin:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on January 02, 2016, 02:02:34 PM
Really? I don't think I know anyone who watched the show than ran out and decided to start reading the books.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ard on January 02, 2016, 02:06:45 PM
The game of thrones books are the number one series I see people on the bus reading on a daily basis over the last year, along with the martian.  So yes, he's selling a TON more books now to people who probably would not have otherwise read it.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Velorath on January 02, 2016, 02:58:30 PM
Haem, he would have made a fuckload more from book sales than from TV money. Getting the TV show means money because it is publicity for the books, much more than it means money for the rights.

He has sold a lot of books. He'd sold a lot before the series even came out on TV, but now?  :grin:

I'm pretty sure the real money is from the merchandising that sprung up after the TV show hit.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: HaemishM on January 02, 2016, 05:48:59 PM
Oh yes, the book sales most certainly feed off of the TV show. But on a pound for pound basis, he's going to make more money from screenplays, royalties from DVD (since he's producing, I assume he's got his beak wet on the back end) and such than he will from selling the books. Book royalties are really really shit compared to other mediums, especially when you have to split them with publishers.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on January 02, 2016, 07:00:59 PM
Really? I don't think I know anyone who watched the show than ran out and decided to start reading the books.

I did this.

Apart from the running part.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on January 02, 2016, 11:37:21 PM
Oh yes, the book sales most certainly feed off of the TV show. But on a pound for pound basis, he's going to make more money from screenplays, royalties from DVD (since he's producing, I assume he's got his beak wet on the back end) and such than he will from selling the books. Book royalties are really really shit compared to other mediums, especially when you have to split them with publishers.

Depends entirely on his contract. I'd wager he has still made more from the books.

He was selling millions of them before the TV series even came out, and Forbes estimate that he sold 8 million books and took in $15 million in 2011 alone from book sales.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2012/08/09/women-on-the-rise-among-the-worlds-top-earnings-authors/



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on January 03, 2016, 04:30:09 AM
So he made 1.5 million per book. That's a hell of a contract.

Article won't load on mobile so I can't see the details of how they figure that. The above is my, wtf numbers, reaction.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on January 03, 2016, 05:22:07 AM
No, he made about $2 per book sold.

Which isn't unusual at all.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on January 03, 2016, 05:55:00 AM
Just to nitpick what someone said. In Television, "Producer" is synonymous with writer (usually for an entire series and not just individual episodes) unlike in movies where the producer is the moneyman who gets earlier cuts of the profits.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Tmon on January 03, 2016, 06:35:00 AM
If i was him there would be no way in hell i would spend the last few years of my life miserably doing a chore i hate to keep a buncha nerds happy that are going to be disappointed anyways.  Let HBO finish the story, then just tell people "yup, that's how it ends".

I suspect there's a contract and fairly hefty advance with a publisher to consider.  As long as he at least pretends to work on the final bbok(s) he can probably avoid any legal hassles with them.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on January 03, 2016, 11:42:37 AM
No, he made about $2 per book sold.

Which isn't unusual at all.

Gah fuck early morning math.  How the hell did I come up with that one.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on January 03, 2016, 11:43:21 AM
You're an architect.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: MediumHigh on January 03, 2016, 01:06:37 PM
In the meantime, if the tv ending sucks GRRM can jump out and say " Oh but the tv execs refused to show my true vision" but if the book ending sucks " Well I was rushed to  finish the series now that the tv show ended".

Basically lose lose. The tv show writing is definitely not good enough to end the series at the same series highs of season 1 but the books writing is getting to the point that its highly unlikely this will end in anything worth reading or waiting for. 


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: HaemishM on January 03, 2016, 01:29:49 PM
No, he made about $2 per book sold.

Which isn't unusual at all.

$2 a book hardcover and I'd wager a $1-$1.50 a book for paperbacks, and that's probably a pretty favorable contract based on his previous copious amounts of work.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on January 03, 2016, 02:45:05 PM
You're an architect.   :why_so_serious:

Which means I'm lucky I didn't think of it in 12s instead of base 10.  :why_so_serious: It was the morning time on the shitter. I blame being half-awake with no coffee and 5 1/2 hours sleep.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 05, 2016, 10:36:23 AM
Yet another reason to adjust your body clock and do your pooping at work!


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on January 05, 2016, 11:35:26 AM
Which means I'm lucky I didn't think of it in 12s instead of base 10.  :why_so_serious:
Interesting, and here I thought only us CS majors did silly shit like that!  Though next question, not actually knowing much of the field, why?


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2016, 12:18:44 PM
Because 5 feet and 8 feet are 60 and 96 inches not 50 and 90.  You draw in inches as an Architect, not feet like a civil engineer.

And never Metric, because Fuck a 90cm door instead of a 3' door.  :awesome_for_real:

Which is interesting because while it's only ~1/2" off of a 'standard' door, all other dimensions are similarly off.  So I've found you get a vague sense of unease as you pick it up. (The human eye can detect as little as 1/8" of an inch difference without realizing it.) You also seem to run into corners for a few hours when traversing a fully metric building instead of an english units one because of the difference. Not that I've been in one more than a few times, but those were my observations.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on January 05, 2016, 12:28:09 PM
...
Which is interesting because while it's only ~1/2" and inch off of a 'standard' door, all other dimensions are similarly off.  So I've found you get a vague sense of unease as you pick it up. (The human eye can detect as little as 1/8" of an inch difference without realizing it.) You also seem to run into corners for a few hours when traversing a fully metric building instead of an english units one because of the difference. Not that I've been in one more than a few times, but those were my observations.
Which seems like a great friggin reason *to* do metric.  Set up cameras and watch the guests fall all over the place. 

If you ever build stairs, amuse yourself by making each stair 1/8" too tall....


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2016, 12:46:29 PM
That would be as advisable as a Doctor removing an arm "for the Lulz" or a Lawyer zelously sending incriminating evidence to the Prosecution. We've got professional licensure and ethics standards to uphold, even if we price ourselves like bargin basement whores making 1/5th the money of a contractor. Architect is a profession run by business people who'd rather be artists with all the logic and acumen you'd expect from that. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on January 05, 2016, 03:58:23 PM
If architects don't make enough money: 1.) There isn't enough financial incentive for someone to bother suing you, and 2.) YOu're not paying enough in professional fees for your profession to censure you properly.  You're golden.  Commence with the unethical, dangerous and childish pranks. 


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Lucas on January 08, 2016, 06:29:37 AM
sorry for the off-topic, but this might serve as a gentle reminder  :grin:

(http://words.usask.ca/cmrsblog/files/2015/03/everybody-died.jpg)


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on April 25, 2018, 10:24:10 AM
 New GRRM tits and dragons book in November (http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/04/25/fire-blood-on-the-way/).



Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on April 25, 2018, 10:50:11 AM
While I appreciate you updating this thread to inform me of GRRM's update, I also want to do extreme violence to both of you for this update.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rendakor on April 25, 2018, 10:59:06 AM
Fuck him for not finishing the goddamn series. And fuck me for probably buying this shit anyway.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: schild on April 25, 2018, 11:21:19 AM
nice, ya'll get a shitarillion

grats


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ard on April 25, 2018, 12:47:41 PM
I was totally expecting an update to this thread to be his obituary.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Brolan on April 25, 2018, 06:44:47 PM
Fuck GRRM; the HBO series will be my ending since he'll die long before he finishes any books.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on April 25, 2018, 07:14:05 PM
He should really just hand the series over to Sanderson now, instead of making everybody wait till he's in the grave and his publisher does it.  Since if he's written 1,000 pages of pure bullshit instead of finishing the god damn book he was supposed to finish years ago, he obviously has no intention of working on this shit ever again.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: BobtheSomething on April 25, 2018, 07:34:38 PM
I'm pretty stoked.  This new book outlines the history of the Targeryens, which means we will have canon depictions of Targeryens kings in armor on dragons, which means CMON will have the rights, nay the imperative, to create and sell a plastic dragon rider mini for their book-based tabletop game, which means in two years I'll be able to go onto Miniature Market and pay 30% MSRP for a sweet-ass dragon king miniature.  Feels good.


But there's no way I'll ever read this shit.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Brolan on April 25, 2018, 08:04:46 PM
Also, this is the shit he is working on instead of finishing WoW?  :mob: :mob: :mob:


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on April 25, 2018, 08:40:27 PM
Fuck this. Fuck him. Fuck all of it.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on April 26, 2018, 05:10:43 AM
Fuck this. Fuck him. Fuck all of it.

This


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Lucas on April 26, 2018, 08:41:37 AM
This is a comment from a related article published on Polygon  :grin: :

Quote
In the time since A Dance With Dragons was released, I have:

Got married
Moved
Finished my associate’s degree
Started and completed my bachelor’s degree
Moved again
Been promoted 3 times
Had my first child
Seen 13, soon to be 14 new Marvel films
Purchased 3 brand new game consoles, and seen all of them receive successors


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on April 26, 2018, 09:43:53 AM
#1: Dance will not be released in 2018.

#2: I have a pet theory that he has written the entire rest of the series and is just holding onto it as a giant FU to all the people that complain about how long he is taking.  Not really.

#3: I have a conspiracy theory that Dance is done, but he doesn't want it out until HBO is done as the story diverges from the shows enough that he thought it would be confusing - or that the books would spoil something for the show.  Also a BS theory, but fun to think about.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on April 26, 2018, 10:05:45 AM
Dance has be out for about 7 years now.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on April 26, 2018, 10:22:53 AM
Dance has be out for about 7 years now.
So it won't be released in 2018.  :-)

I meant Winds.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rasix on April 26, 2018, 10:31:56 AM
I know.  :awesome_for_real: I need to have some fun with all of this.

I see theory #2 floated in just about any reddit thread on this (I sub to r/books). Anyhow, if he's secretly done, then he's an asshole. So "fuck him" still stands.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: jgsugden on April 26, 2018, 10:49:50 AM
I had a chance (in 2013 or so) to take a bet that would have paid off $1 for every day before/after January 1, 2017 that Winter is released... I was going to take the over.   We decided not to do it in the end, but man, I would have been having fun right now.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: pants on April 26, 2018, 03:20:52 PM
Nah, he's not done.  He's just got the world's largest case of writer's block, with a side dose of 'Ive got a fuckload of money, so I don't need to bust my arse to get this damn book done'.  In any other industry, he'd just sell out and retire to count his pennies and do side projects (like all the other random books).  We saw that when he started (Dance or Feast?  I can't remember) and had to redo it when he realised the 10-year-fast forward wasn't going to work.  That's what knocked this train off its tracks.

I'm done with the books, and to a lesser extent the TV.  I'll watch the last two seasons, but just for completionism.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Draegan on April 26, 2018, 04:33:46 PM
This is a comment from a related article published on Polygon  :grin: :

Quote
In the time since A Dance With Dragons was released, I have:

Got married
Moved
Finished my associate’s degree
Started and completed my bachelor’s degree
Moved again
Been promoted 3 times
Had my first child
Seen 13, soon to be 14 new Marvel films
Purchased 3 brand new game consoles, and seen all of them receive successors

My Life:

I was on my honeymoon when the book came out.
Since then I've:
Bought 2 houses.
Changed jobs 3 times.
Had 3 kids.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Sir T on April 26, 2018, 04:59:03 PM
The real reason is he cant figure out a way to have long meandering passages on the food available at court feasts in the middle of the eternal winter war. I don't see the King of the walkers sitting down for a 2 day feast.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: NowhereMan on April 27, 2018, 04:07:21 AM
Sanderson has said he actually tried doing a SoIaF entry himself and the result was so awful he's been too embarrassed to show it to anyone else.

He's also published 26 books since Dances with Dragons was released (some of those being short stories but still!).


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: K9 on April 27, 2018, 06:51:02 AM
I doubt Sanderson wants anything to do with ASOIAF; he's got his own thing going on now.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Chimpy on April 27, 2018, 07:19:28 AM
I doubt Sanderson wants anything to do with ASOIAF; he's got his own thing going on now.

He also doesn’t seem to have the fetishes required to write a book that would fit the Martin template. (Or at least he isn’t able to articulate them  :why_so_serious: )


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on April 27, 2018, 07:06:29 PM
I know everybody thinks it's because he actually found the god of tits and wine and so doesn't want to finish.

But I honestly think he wrote himself into a cul-de-sac and has no idea how to get out without reconfirming the more conventional plot arcs the series runners have defaulted to. So he's just going to leave it because he really doesn't know how to write his way out.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on April 27, 2018, 07:25:52 PM
I know everybody thinks it's because he actually found the god of tits and wine and so doesn't want to finish.

But I honestly think he wrote himself into a cul-de-sac and has no idea how to get out without reconfirming the more conventional plot arcs the series runners have defaulted to. So he's just going to leave it because he really doesn't know how to write his way out.

He started doing that about halfway through book 2. Fell in love with (some of) his characters, and his "world" and entirely lost the thread that was driving the series.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: schild on April 27, 2018, 10:06:52 PM
guys i know this is gonna be crazy but

is it possible he's just a bad writer


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: HaemishM on April 27, 2018, 10:13:47 PM
He's not actually that bad a writer though. I mean, he's not what I'd call greats in literature, but he's not a bad writer. His entire body of work is one of an interesting genre writer. Song is a pretty remarkable work just in terms of sheer wordage. Even the worst of the series are better than most of Jordan's epic. Epic fiction ain't always easy.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: lamaros on April 28, 2018, 01:03:14 AM
guys i know this is gonna be crazy but

is it possible he's just a bad writer

He isn't great, but Game in particular is well written and interesting, with a clear focus.

But the books, like Harry Potter before them, have gotten more self obsessed, indulgent, and generic as they've continued.

For someone who was so keen on avoiding putting the fantastic elements in focus and more interested in intrigue he has obviously slipped a long way, and there's no saving the position now.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Khaldun on April 28, 2018, 05:53:24 PM
You want to see him at his height, go back and read the original short story version of "Sand Kings". But the first Game of Thrones and even the next two are pretty tightly written for this sort of thing.

Keeping in mind his models, the 100-Years War was a real muddle in the middle too. A lot of pointless killing, a lot of the most interesting individuals from the first part died or went home, etc.  It didn't become narratively exciting again until the last 40 years, with Agincourt, Joan of Arc, etc. and then the War of the Roses to follow in England.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on April 28, 2018, 08:32:38 PM
I always thought his model was basically just War of the Roses?

And he’s a fine writer (or was, at least for fantasy), he just obviously ran into the biggest writers block in history after getting to the end of the the first plot arc (The first three books).  Which he obviously had already plotted out in his head before time, as he pumped out the first three books all within 1-2 years from each other.  As I’m sure I’ve mentioned 100 times, he really should have stuck with his first instinct to to do the time jump between book 3 and 4, instead of bogging himself down trying to explain everything that happpened.  It was all setup perfectly, and then devolved into a mess.

This though.... yeah, this is proof he’s pretty much given up.  1,000 pages of fake history bullshit, instead of the 1,000 pages you were supposed to have spent the last 7 years working on.  I just say give it to Sanderson as a joke since he finished the Wheel of Time (and frankly, his three books were better than anything Jordan had written since the 90’s), but seriously.  Just like, find a competent writer and hand things over along with your notes, so you can spend your few remaining years bathing in baconators or what ever the fuck.  I’m sure, just like Jordan, he has the ending worked out.  Just no idea how the fuck to get there.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: eldaec on May 01, 2018, 08:21:11 AM
If it was just war of the roses, it would be a lot easier to wrap up.

There would be another round of the war of n kings with everyone's kids and this time it would end when Henry VI/Tommen kills himself and the throne goes to someone who can unite the country under a  stark/Lannister marriage pact.

The magic elements that represent the greater game have been there since the start but where the series genuinely falls down imo is that they haven't been properly integrated into the PoVs of the characters we know and it is hard to imagine that being done in a satisfying way in the last 25% of story.

I had no problem with Feast and Dance for what they were, but I find really hard to believe they've left us two books away from the end of the tale.

No idea if he's given up but really hard to imagine that 8 years of writing is going to lead to a good book.


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: Teleku on May 01, 2018, 08:44:09 AM
It's going to give us a shitarillion though.  AMAZING!!!


Title: Re: Song of Ice and Fire Book Thread (SPOILERS)
Post by: ghost on May 09, 2018, 07:06:31 PM
He's definitely going to get a cheeto lodged in his left anterior descending artery before he can get close to finishing.