Another One Bites the Dust: SWG Edition!

[Ingmar]

So you're saying you had to browse each vendor separately, in-person, to see what was for sale there, but that wasn't inconvenient for the buyer? Even DAOC had a global search for player vendor contents.

How might it work in a grimy fictional galaxy, plagued by civil war and a domineering empire, where much is illicit and spoken in hushed tones? There was a busy official market with global search, but it was price-capped. Your own NPC vendors were not price-capped. So the really good stuff was on private vendors.

Stockpile worthwhile stuff, build a shop, put a sign outside saying what you're selling. If you were any good, people shared waypoints to Ingmar's Weapons on Tatooine. Most things had decay or charges, so you got return customers unless they found better product.

You were listed on the planetary map under vendors. You could add a note to items on the public market, giving people your shop location, and set up a droid that advertised for you in cities.

But the co-operative malls in player cities worked best. Well-known traders would often have a mall outlet in addition to their own shop. People knew it was your outlet because you named the NPC "Ingmar's Guns".

Again, that's all about the seller. I didn't know you could create automated trade channel spam though, that sounds wonderful. 

[Tale]

Again, that's all about the seller. I didn't know you could create automated trade channel spam though, that sounds wonderful.  

I didn't say you could create automated trade channel spam. I said you could have a droid walk around advertising your shop. In speech bubbles above its head.

That's enough "here is my SWG opinion" from people who skipped it. Just accept it was a game of missed potential. It contained successes and disasters. "But is it fun?" is the F13 question and the answer continues to be "nobody can agree".

[Surlyboi]

This all sounds incredibly inconvenient for the person who will buy and use the items in the end.

If you knew where the stuff was and had the creeds to buy it, it wasn't inconvenient.

And in answer to the "But is it fun?" question, it was for me.

[Lantyssa]

That's enough "here is my SWG opinion" from people who skipped it. Just accept it was a game of missed potential. It contained successes and disasters. "But is it fun?" is the F13 question and the answer continues to be "nobody can agree".

I'd sum it up for them this way:  As a game, it wasn't that great.  Ingmar wouldn't have liked it, though it wasn't as bad as he is trying to image, either.  I've just played with him enough to make that assessment.  As a world though it was awesome.

If the gamey bits could have been improved to the point that people who only like games could have had fun, the worldly bits kept for those of us that enjoyed those, and a plethora of bugs squashed, it would have been truly amazing.

[Morat20]

This all sounds incredibly inconvenient for the person who will buy and use the items in the end.

If you knew where the stuff was and had the creeds to buy it, it wasn't inconvenient.

And in answer to the "But is it fun?" question, it was for me.

*shrug*. I can't remember a whole lot of problems with it, mostly because player cities tended to have shuttles which meant getting there was ridiculously easy and I passed through them constantly. So if I was feeling like I should probably pick up some new weapons, I'd probably pass a half-dozen weapon vendors just by moving around. I admit, early on it was probably FAR more of a pain.

But by the time i played, there were established cities, with malls full of of vendors for every good possible with shuttleports and vehicles had just been introduced.  Finding them wasn't a big deal -- the whole "global visibility" thing on the Merchant tree was effectively "Show my vendors on the map". Pick one and it'd give you a waypoint to it.

No, it wasn't as convienent as the Auction House on WoW. On the other hand, it was part of what made player cities really work so...your mileage varies if the slight hassle was worth it. It was certainly easier than buying and selling in, say, EVE. :)

No Jita lag.

[Xanthippe]

That's enough "here is my SWG opinion" from people who skipped it. Just accept it was a game of missed potential. It contained successes and disasters. "But is it fun?" is the F13 question and the answer continues to be "nobody can agree".

I'd sum it up for them this way:  As a game, it wasn't that great.  Ingmar wouldn't have liked it, though it wasn't as bad as he is trying to image, either.  I've just played with him enough to make that assessment.  As a world though it was awesome.

If the gamey bits could have been improved to the point that people who only like games could have had fun, the worldly bits kept for those of us that enjoyed those, and a plethora of bugs squashed, it would have been truly amazing.

I'm looking for a world.  Are there any good worldy games out there besides Rift right now?

[UnSub]

Look, guys, I know what it is to be irrationally in love with a clusterfucked old sandbox MMO, but come on. Some of you haven't come anywhere near completely to terms with just how much stupid bullshit you were overlooking even when the game was "good".

Yeah, but this is a wake. This is all the "hey, remember the time SWG did the thing with that guy and that guy got so mad hahahaha" while ignoring the fact that SWG was a drunk who never paid back loans. The SWG released a title that showed how successful a AAA sandbox MMO can be, which was then eclipsed by a better themepark in WoW in its first month.

I'm looking for a world.  Are there any good worldy games out there besides Rift right now?

Yes.

AAA, highly polished, strong player-base? No.

[Surlyboi]

Look, guys, I know what it is to be irrationally in love with a clusterfucked old sandbox MMO, but come on. Some of you haven't come anywhere near completely to terms with just how much stupid bullshit you were overlooking even when the game was "good".

Yeah, but this is a wake. This is all the "hey, remember the time SWG did the thing with that guy and that guy got so mad hahahaha" while ignoring the fact that SWG was a drunk who never paid back loans. The SWG released a title that showed how successful a AAA sandbox MMO can be, which was then eclipsed by a better themepark in WoW in its first month.

A theme park with a fucking built-in player base, so several dozen grains of salt.

[ezrast]

Look, guys, I know what it is to be irrationally in love with a clusterfucked old sandbox MMO, but come on. Some of you haven't come anywhere near completely to terms with just how much stupid bullshit you were overlooking even when the game was "good".

Yeah, but this is a wake. This is all the "hey, remember the time SWG did the thing with that guy and that guy got so mad hahahaha" while ignoring the fact that SWG was a drunk who never paid back loans. The SWG released a title that showed how successful a AAA sandbox MMO can be, which was then eclipsed by a better themepark in WoW in its first month.

A theme park with a fucking built-in player base, so several dozen grains of salt.

Um.

Star Wars.

[Sheepherder]

How might it work in a grimy fictional galaxy...

Weapons would be manufactured by a handful of massive corporations, not individual artisans like it's the goddamn middle ages. If I want to buy a handgun I go buy a Glock or something, I don't google up a gunsmith and then go out into the mountains with him to mine for ore like a 19th century prospector. Jesus Christ. Don't even try to appeal to "realism" with this shit.

I came very close to spraying beer out of my nose.

And yes, it's Star Wars.  Warcraft has fucking nothing on that fanbase.

[eldaec]

That's enough "here is my SWG opinion" from people who skipped it. Just accept it was a game of missed potential. It contained successes and disasters. "But is it fun?" is the F13 question and the answer continues to be "nobody can agree".

I'd sum it up for them this way:  As a game, it wasn't that great.  Ingmar wouldn't have liked it, though it wasn't as bad as he is trying to image, either.  I've just played with him enough to make that assessment.  As a world though it was awesome.

If the gamey bits could have been improved to the point that people who only like games could have had fun, the worldly bits kept for those of us that enjoyed those, and a plethora of bugs squashed, it would have been truly amazing.

I'm looking for a world.  Are there any good worldy games out there besides Rift right now?

It's EVE or nothing. Rift isn't a worldy game.

[Morat20]

How might it work in a grimy fictional galaxy...

Weapons would be manufactured by a handful of massive corporations, not individual artisans like it's the goddamn middle ages. If I want to buy a handgun I go buy a Glock or something, I don't google up a gunsmith and then go out into the mountains with him to mine for ore like a 19th century prospector. Jesus Christ. Don't even try to appeal to "realism" with this shit.

I came very close to spraying beer out of my nose.

And yes, it's Star Wars.  Warcraft has fucking nothing on that fanbase.

Warcraft is a fanbase of gamers. Star Wars is a fanbase of, well, Star Wars fans.

SWG did pretty good by the standards of the time. WoW basically worked on an entirely different plane.

[Sheepherder]

Warcraft is a fanbase of gamers. Star Wars is a fanbase of, well, Star Wars fans.

WindupAtheist.  Checkmate, I win.

Seriously though.  You're goddamn insane if you don't think there is a massive overlap between "nerds who play computer games" and "nerds who like space samurai and space cowboys versus space Nazi's in space Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress."

[UnSub]

Warcraft is a fanbase of gamers. Star Wars is a fanbase of, well, Star Wars fans.

SWG did pretty good by the standards of the time. WoW basically worked on an entirely different plane.

Warcraft is a base of RTS gamers. WoW's success past the initial period had little to do with them. Especially with WoW going mainstream, which meant it pulled in a lot of first-time gamers who didn't play the RTS at all.

The Star Wars player base contains a lot of gamers who will buy fairly average titles in the millions of units. SWG's launch hype was heavily based around playing in the Star Wars universe and that's what attracted a lot of early purchases.

To re-cover the same ground, SWG was a poor game for the Star Wars universe, but it wouldn't have been as successful as if it had been Generic Sci-Fi Sandbox: Koster's Revenge.

[Merusk]

It's the argument that gets trotted out every time SWG's failure to capture anyone but the  "I wanted to live Beru's Life" crowd is pointed out.

You're arguing with world-sim fanatics.  They'll excuse anything because of their zeal for the system itself, never mind how inappropriate for the franchise.  It could have been an actual release of Whamdoodles online and they'd be justifying each and every decision made.

[SnakeCharmer]

Reskin preCU SWG into the Firefly MMO.

[UnSub]

Reskin preCU SWG into the Firefly MMO.

There's an emu project right there.

Especially since the actual Firefly MMO seems to have disappeared.

[Tannhauser]

That's not shiny.

[Kail]

Warcraft is a fanbase of gamers. Star Wars is a fanbase of, well, Star Wars fans.

Wiki sez Warcraft III has something like three million boxes sold (though the citation is out of date, so it may be wrong).  Star Wars: The Force Unleashed has moved something like seven million.

[Surlyboi]

And look at the release dates between the two and the formats in which both were released.

WCIII was released PC/Mac back in the late 90s/early 00s when gaming was much less socially acceptable.

Force Unleashed was released on pretty much Every. Fucking. Console. plus the iPhone and probably Speak N Spells in 2007. Big difference.

Ask Bungie why they chose to go for an XBox release of Halo rather than one for the Mac/PC and they'll tell you, "it was a call between selling a couple hundred thousand boxes and a few million." The two don't fucking compare.

[Fordel]

Actually, Bungie was traditionally a Mac based company and fully intended to have a Mac Release of Halo, but they were bought out by Microsoft so Halo could be the flagship game for the Xbox and blah blah etc.

[SnakeCharmer]

That's not shiny.

Sure it is.  All the archetypes are there...Mal is obviously the smugger/pistoleer, Jayne is the Rifleman/Commando, Wash the pilot, Zoe the Carbineeer/Commando.  River's a TKM.  Simon is a doc.  Change the YT1300 to the Serenity, make the Empire the Blue Hand/Alliance and you're set.  Remove all alien skins and change them to humans, make player cities totally razzable.  Take out Jedi.  SOMEHOW get in atmospheric flight.

Tell me you wouldn't play the shit out of that.

[Kail]

And look at the release dates between the two and the formats in which both were released.

True, it's not exactly a fair comparison.  But I'm not trying to say that there are twice as many SW fans as Warcraft fans or anything.

The point I'm trying to make is that A) it seems weird to say that WoW's success is all because of the Warcraft brand, when WoW easily outsold Warcraft 3 by way more than 2:1, and B) that Star Wars fans aren't these weird luddites who live in theatres and never buy games, even way back in the dimly remembered stone age of 2003.  I can't find sales figures for more relevant SW games or I'd post them (just newer stuff like TFU, Lego SW, and Battlefront), but it's not like Lucasarts have been putting out Star Wars games for decades just on a whim.  Even the dimmest executive would pull the plug after the hundredth game or so if nobody was buying them.

edit:

All the archetypes are there...Mal is obviously the smugger/pistoleer, Jayne is the Rifleman/Commando, Wash the pilot, Zoe the Carbineeer/Commando.  River's a TKM.  Simon is a doc.

Yeah, and don't forget Inara, who - what's that you say?  DIKU will be fine after all?

[UnSub]

I'll accept that the timing of release may be a bit different.

A quick look at the Wikipedia indicates that SWG, SW:KOTOR and SW: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy all launched in 2003. I can see that KOTOR has (to date) .

Anyway, Kail's made the point: there are lots of SW fans out there who look to buy a title just because it is Star Wars. As with many IPs, it is what draws in the initial interest. Hell, it is a major reason why people are excited about SWOR.

[WindupAtheist]

Forget World of Warcraft. That comparison is just SimBeru tards trying to make themselves feel better. It's the way an entire generation of failures in the MMO industry have tried to make themselves feel better. You just go "Sure it wasn't as big as Warcraft, but what is?" and shrug, while implying that Warcraft is only successful because Blizzard has an infinite budget. Sure champ, it's their budget. It's their brand. It's not the fact that they would rather kill themselves than design the sort of technically shoddy shitpile their competition all have reputations for. No, no, it couldn't be that.

SWG never managed to pull ahead of Everquest, despite coming out 4 years later and having the Star Wars license. I don't even mean peak Everquest, I mean it never managed to pull ahead of whatever EQ was doing subscriber-wise at the same time. The peak of SWG was only about 50k subs higher than peak UO, a game that came out in 1997 with Super Nintendo graphics, and you can't even pin that on the stupid diku-loving masses since they're both sandboxes.

"Sure it was no Warcraft..."

Haha, no shit?

[Sheepherder]

I can't find sales figures for more relevant SW games or I'd post them (just newer stuff like TFU, Lego SW, and Battlefront), but it's not like Lucasarts have been putting out Star Wars games for decades just on a whim.

According to VGChartz Dark Forces (1995) has sold 1 950 000 copies.  Warcraft: Orcs and Humans has sold 2 079 792.

[Ratman_tf]

Blizzard also has a little online action RPG you may have heard of.

The Blizzard fanbase is what got that ball rolling. Not just the Warcraft fans.

I rather liked the simberu game, and I still think it could have worked if the rest of the game was as good. I like a lot of Raph's ideas and design ethos, but seems to lack that certain oomph in the action/combat area that a Star Wars game needs to shine.

[Morat20]

What's amazing is how many people stuck with it despite the glaring issues. It wasn't the Star Wars license that did that. There was a point where the game became more playable, despite being badly flawed, but that was a LONG time after launch.

I mean, how long was it before they had cities and vehicles working?

Broken spawn system, no real questing hubs, some half-done themeparks, a weird and complex set of undocumented mechanics to really do anything more than kill womp rats (buffing, the HAM system, armor -- shit, even how to find things).

The license got people to buy the box, but something kept a surprising number of people playing it. And it wasn't lightsabers.

Although I second the Firefly MMORPG idea. :) Especially if the space part can have a bit of the Wing Commander Privateer feel...

[Lantyssa]

Yeah, and don't forget Inara, who - what's that you say?  DIKU will be fine after all?

Entertainer.

What better way to heal one's mind wounds?

[Morat20]

Yeah, and don't forget Inara, who - what's that you say?  DIKU will be fine after all?

Entertainer.

What better way to heal one's mind wounds?

Entertainer/Image Designer.

Seriously, if you wanted a makeover, who else would you go to?

[Merusk]

What's amazing is how many people stuck with it despite the glaring issues. It wasn't the Star Wars license that did that. There was a point where the game became more playable, despite being badly flawed, but that was a LONG time after launch.

People stuck with Shadowbane and Auto Assault until the end, too, despite both having huge tech problems and being shitty games.  Usually around here we deride those people and say they have shitty taste or are simply fanatics for the game system and have a laugh.  With SWG somehow that argument is deemed invalid and it's because the game, 'just had so much potential.'

[Numtini]

Neither of those games had anything like the following that SWG had. There is a dedicated group out there who wants that kind of a world. For some Eve does it, for others they want something more personal.

I half wonder if UO will see an uptick in December.

[SnakeCharmer]

If Fallen Earth was less FPS and more tab target autoattack, they could probably put together a mediocre ad campaign of 'come get your virtual world' here! and probably see an uptick in subs.

[Malakili]

If Fallen Earth was less FPS and more tab target autoattack, they could probably put together a mediocre ad campaign of 'come get your virtual world' here! and probably see an uptick in subs.

I actually felt like it wasn't FPS enough.  Or, maybe to be more accurate, it was an FPS with pretty mediocre gun play.  It was probably the single biggest turn off for me. 

[palmer_eldritch]

What's amazing is how many people stuck with it despite the glaring issues. It wasn't the Star Wars license that did that. There was a point where the game became more playable, despite being badly flawed, but that was a LONG time after launch.

I mean, how long was it before they had cities and vehicles working?

Broken spawn system, no real questing hubs, some half-done themeparks, a weird and complex set of undocumented mechanics to really do anything more than kill womp rats (buffing, the HAM system, armor -- shit, even how to find things).

The license got people to buy the box, but something kept a surprising number of people playing it. And it wasn't lightsabers.

Although I second the Firefly MMORPG idea. :) Especially if the space part can have a bit of the Wing Commander Privateer feel...

It wasn't as bad as that. Within a couple of months my friends and I had our little town set up with people running shops. a base for the PvPers who'd go off and fight rebels, and a tavern where people hung out. Not too far away you'd find the local harvesters mining ore and minerals to keep the industrialists going. My bounty hunter friend would dissapear off to other planets for days and come back with a collection of high quality hides to sell to the crafters.

Even in that basic state it was a lot of fun for some people. The world also changed - NPC bases nearby would come and go, and new people would turn up and place their houses or businesses close to ours.

The key thing I think is that it was a totally different experience to Everquest or WoW, both games which I also like. Although WoW and SWG are both considered MMOs and are superficially similar, I'm not sure it even makes sense to look at them as members of the same genre.