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Author Topic: DC to "Reboot Everything"  (Read 150084 times)
Lantyssa
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Reply #105 on: June 20, 2011, 06:46:23 AM

As I only really read Marvel as a youngster, I wouldn't mind reading some DC titles and any advice on good ones and where to start would be appreciated (or even some good marvel ones as well)
I hear DC is launching a couple of #1 titles.  Those are probably a good place to start.

(Seriously, good luck.  No telling what will be good or bad with a relaunch.  Also I never enjoyed DC much, except for the Vertigo line.)

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Minvaren
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Reply #106 on: June 20, 2011, 04:14:53 PM

Slight detour, but...

The problem with Ultimates is that continuity can build up again quickly and shitty creative teams can fuck things up even further.  Look at shit like Ultimatum.

I found a copy of Ultimatum at Half-Price Books a week ago, got around to reading it over the weekend.  If I didn't know better, the creative team for it must have been inspired by X3...   swamp poop

"There are many things of which a wise man might wish to remain ignorant." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
NowhereMan
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Reply #107 on: June 21, 2011, 12:41:57 AM

Yeah, I really liked the idea of the Ultimates universe and the first two runs were good but it really suffered from the fact that the writers seemed to decide they should just retell every big story from the main continuity rather than trying to tell new stories or letting things build slowly. The result was all the stupid stuff from continuity they had started out escaping from coming right back in and also making the whole thing feel really rushed, disjointed and confusing. It's really a shame and frankly one the editorial team probably bear the blame for most of all. I think the books would have benefitted a lot from EiC that put their foot down on retarded stuff happening or even banned too much retelling of famous stories.

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Margalis
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Reply #108 on: June 21, 2011, 03:15:28 AM

The problem with Ultimates is that they were in the end ostensibly to attract new fans but were actually geared towards old fans.

If you aren't familiar with the original then the alternate take isn't interesting just by being alternate - that's the only take you know. Look at someone like Ultimate Captain America - he's a pretty terrible character. The only thing that makes him interesting is that he's so different from regular Captain America, but that's not anything a new fan could pick up on. Instead they just get a dead-end unlikable character.

A lot of the writers saw a lot of chances to play around and wink at old fans - what if we made this good guy a bad guy, or reversed a certain event? So it becomes a greatest hits remix.

The whole concept is kind of a dead end anyway though. In the end it build up it's own continuity and now you have the normal universe, the Ultimate Universe and need a third one now that Ultimate is long in tooth.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #109 on: June 21, 2011, 06:08:57 PM

A lot of the writers saw a lot of chances to play around and wink at old fans - what if we made this good guy a bad guy, or reversed a certain event? So it becomes a greatest hits remix.

Agreed. I enjoyed the Ultimates universe while I read it, even tried to catch them all for a while, but the fact they sped through lore from the 616 universe (The Clone Saga! Legion! Ultron!) meant it was painting by numbers, albeit with a darker pallette.

Margalis
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Reply #110 on: June 21, 2011, 07:42:16 PM

They did the clone saga? Lol. Hey, why not revisit the single worst idea in the history of marvel comics?

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Sir T
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Reply #111 on: June 21, 2011, 08:59:35 PM

The clone saga is when I stopped reading comics regularly. It was one of the dumbest ideas I had ever seen and spoiled the whole thing for me.

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Reply #112 on: June 22, 2011, 08:22:55 AM


Margalis
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Reply #113 on: June 22, 2011, 10:17:18 AM

Quote
In re-imagining the story for the Ultimate Universe, Brian Bendis inserted many references to the original Clone Saga. Among them are that the brief appearances of the characters Miles Warren and Ben Reilly; Peter re-examining his relationship with MJ; an amnesiac Gwen Stacy appearing from nowhere, then turning out to be more than she seems; Aunt May experiencing a heart attack; a "Scarlet Spider" (Spider-Woman) evading Peter and later being used as a plot dump; a half-formed, semi-insane clone appearing several times, specifically wanting to protect MJ; a 'mystery women' called 'Jessica'; an old friend and colleague of Norman Osborn appearing to have been manipulating the scenes from behind (Dr. Mendel Stromm in normal Marvel continuity, Otto Octavius in Ultimate Marvel continuity), later revealing unseen powers over robotics.

Kind of the problem with Ultimates in a nutshell.

Comic book companies try out a scheme to attract new readers every couple years. I was horrified recently to see sales numbers of comics these days - the top title is selling something like 100,000, with most titles sub 60k. IIRC X-Men #1 sold a couple million. So whatever they are doing isn't working.

Comics have so many problems right now - price, distribution model, content. None of these attempts to grab new readers ever address any of those. When I started reading comic books they cost 75 cents. When I stopped they were $2.75 - same length, not any better content. (Nicer paper and coloring process though I suppose)

I think I'm with the people who believe the best course of action is to sell thicker Shonen Jump style books with multiple titles in them. Makes it a lot easier to have one-shots, mini-series, etc, and switch the undercard around without confusing everyone and introducing new #1s all the time. If you want to do something that spans all the X books you can put all the relevant issues in one fat product. More bang for the consumer buck, more durable, easier to stock in stores, etc.

I believe Marvel is about to start doing something like this, but there aren't many (any?) details available and the number of books seems quite large, like 10+ thick books.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
HaemishM
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Reply #114 on: June 22, 2011, 11:54:03 AM

They also need to embrace more digital distribution options, with a resultant decrease in the price of each book. Let's face it, $3 for a 32-page comic book is just crazy.

palmer_eldritch
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Reply #115 on: June 22, 2011, 03:36:09 PM

I used to read comics back when I was a teenager (the 80's) and recently got a moto xoom and have been trying to get back into them. Tablets work great for comics!

Anyways I couldn't believe the different version of each. I feel totally lost and was looking for a place to start and have a continuous story line.

Right now I am reading the ultimate x-men and am quite enjoying that but have no idea where to go next, they all just seem to be one big convoluted clusterfuck and I have no idea how anyone would jump in as a complete noob. It just seems like too much work to find and a starting place. Oh and don't even get me started on crossovers......

As I only really read Marvel as a youngster, I wouldn't mind reading some DC titles and any advice on good ones and where to start would be appreciated (or even some good marvel ones as well)

If you are interested in getting back into the X-Men, you could work your way through the major trade paperbacks which tell something like a coherent, continuous story between them.

You'd be missing out a lot of stuff but not anything that really matters when it comes to getting up to speed with the story.

House of M - everything changes for X-Men and mutantkind in general
Messiah Complex - moves the story on from the cliffhanger ending in House of M
Messiah War - you could miss this out but it's surprisingly good
Utopia - I think this one is dissapointing but it does have a major plot event for the X-Men
Second Coming - as the name suggests, relates back to Messiah Complex and Messiah War
Generation Hope - carries on the story from Second Coming

That would be plenty of time (and money) spent and would fill you in on what's going on with the X-Men pretty well. Not everyone likes House of M but I thought it was great, and in any case it launched a plotline which has dominated the X-Men books for the past six years so it's a good place to start. (House of M is kind of a follow-up to Avengers Disassembled but you don't need to read that to get on track with the X-Men).

It sounds like you might have missed some other great X-Men comics - check out the trade paperbacks of Grant Morrison's New X-Men run and Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run. Those books are well worth reading, but if your aim is to get to grips with current continuity then it's the stuff I listed above that will help.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 05:21:49 AM by palmer_eldritch »
NowhereMan
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Reply #116 on: June 23, 2011, 02:01:31 AM

Personally if you wanted to get back into comics I'd say fuck 95% of Marvel's current ongoings (but then I didn't really like House of M and the fact that stories from then have pretty much been based on it bias me a lot. If you enjoy M then you might get on with all the recent stuff) and dive into the Cosmic stuff. Annihilation War is a really great event comic not particularly tied to continuity. It uses quite a number of established Marvel characters but ones that haven't been used all that much in the last decade or so, so you really don't need to be familiar with continuity or back story outside of general knowledge of the universe (like knowing who Galactus and Thanos are). It's also really good, pulpy, space opera and leads off into a couple of ongoings that I really haven't looked at in a year or so. Need to check back into Nova and The Guardians of the Galaxy and see if they're still fun or have devolved into crap.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Velorath
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Reply #117 on: June 23, 2011, 02:47:31 AM

Need to check back into Nova and The Guardians of the Galaxy and see if they're still fun or have devolved into crap.

Nova ended a year or so back with issue #36.  Guardians of the Galaxy ended with #25, which I think also coincided with Thanos Imperative.  I think Abnett and Lanning took a short break from the Marvel Cosmic stuff following their Annihilators mini, and are coming back in September with the Annihilators vs. Avengers mini.  They're also doing a new Resurrection Man comic (a character they created) as part of DC's reboot.
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Reply #118 on: June 23, 2011, 04:28:13 AM

I don't know that any of this will change the ultimate problem: that most comics are written for a teenage boy who is now in his 30's and 40's.

My daughter and her friends read comics,  but they all come from Japan, not the US.  She says she likes the stories and characters better.  It probably helps that they speak to current teens (and girls) rather than trying to keep that older audience by being written & illustrated by old fanbois.

Just a thought.

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HaemishM
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Reply #119 on: June 23, 2011, 08:07:54 AM

The House of M and most of the stuff that followed off it was absolute shit. I don't know much about the X-Men stuff that came after, but what I read of it wasn't very good.

Margalis
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Reply #120 on: June 23, 2011, 09:01:45 AM

There's also just basic stuff like not being able to maintain a schedule. When I was a kid I remember every book came out on time every month. These days you have "monthly" series that come out 3 times a year.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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Reply #121 on: June 23, 2011, 03:18:28 PM

Anyways I couldn't believe the different version of each. I feel totally lost and was looking for a place to start and have a continuous story line.
I felt the same way about 7 years ago when I got back into comics. Found that I couldn't read superhero books anymore, at least not the ongoing monthly titles. I've stuck with mainly miniseries and random graphic novels unconnected to continuity.

Similar story here, except I browsed a few issues with the Spider-Clone saga in full swing, and some other guy was Spider-man, and decided that I wasn't willing to pay for that. Especially on my income at the time.

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Furiously
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Reply #122 on: June 24, 2011, 12:34:18 AM

After spending 20 years in a wheelchair, it appears the "reboot" will have Barbara Gordon in her old suit again.

NowhereMan
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Reply #123 on: June 24, 2011, 01:03:07 AM

Hooray? Seriously having spent so many years totally legitimising a wheelchair bound character who's found her own niche in the universe why would just 'presto, chango!' her back again?

Also I'm too lazy to google it but has Power Girl got a new costume as well? It's just I'm trying to imagine her costume sans cleavage and bare legs and my mind is failing to picture anything.

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koro
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Reply #124 on: June 24, 2011, 02:57:22 AM

Power Girl is pretty much gone entirely (much to my girlfriend's chagrin, since it was actually a pretty decently-written book for a good while), killed by low sales and a somewhat convoluted backstory. If she's not, she's "benched" like Cass Cain and Stephanie Brown and will likely not show back up in the books for a good long while.

I'm pretty ambivalent towards Babs becoming Batgirl again, since she was always "my" Batgirl growing up. I'd rather see Stephanie in the role, but I won't complain too much about Babs, since being pretty much the only wheelchair-bound hero in a world where Batman can have his own broken back fixed up and people routinely come back from the dead is a little jarring. Though I suspect DC wasn't expecting the amount of negative heat they've been getting over the decision, especially from disabled people who saw her as an inspiration.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 03:08:45 AM by koro »
SurfD
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Reply #125 on: June 24, 2011, 01:12:46 PM

I'm pretty ambivalent towards Babs becoming Batgirl again, since she was always "my" Batgirl growing up. I'd rather see Stephanie in the role, but I won't complain too much about Babs, since being pretty much the only wheelchair-bound hero in a world where Batman can have his own broken back fixed up and people routinely come back from the dead is a little jarring. Though I suspect DC wasn't expecting the amount of negative heat they've been getting over the decision, especially from disabled people who saw her as an inspiration.
While I was reading up on Green Lantern stuff on the wiki to catch up on lore after the movie, I came across a note that appearently something like 95% of the "heroes come back from the dead" stuff was attributable to some evil superbeing from the DC equivilent of the afterlife demension, who was defeated at the end of the whole "full spectrum lantern corps war".  So after that point, dead heroes should have stayed much more dead.

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Sir T
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Reply #126 on: June 24, 2011, 06:51:12 PM

Last I checked Aunt May (marvel) was still making cakes...

I mean ffs They should just have ended Spiderman when Aunt may on her deathbed told peter that she had known he was Spidey since the beginning and had been playing along for years. Or at least left it there as a great moment in comics. Then suddenly she was brought back to life/never was dead/time bullets yo/something equally stupid that caused me to throw something against the wall. The whole thing was just so daft that I just abandoned the whole thing.

But then Mephesto just waved a magic wand and the last 30 years never happened, so that's ok...

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stu
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Reply #127 on: June 25, 2011, 01:54:14 AM

Abnett and Lanning... Resurrection Man

This is great news!  DRILLING AND MANLINESS I might go and try to find a trade of the original series too.

Visual guide to the relaunch (possibly a BW):

« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 01:59:02 AM by stu »

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Teleku
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Reply #128 on: June 25, 2011, 10:14:32 AM


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Merusk
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Reply #129 on: June 25, 2011, 10:25:33 AM

 Heart Sohmer

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Sir T
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Reply #130 on: June 25, 2011, 10:36:37 AM

Now that is a really sweet comic.  Heart

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Khaldun
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Reply #131 on: July 02, 2011, 08:37:42 PM

Sweet comic that quietly underscores how unsweetly stupid continuity-choked comic storytelling has become.
Azazel
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Reply #132 on: July 03, 2011, 08:55:40 AM

After spending 20 years in a wheelchair, it appears the "reboot" will have Barbara Gordon in her old suit again.

Was that from The Killing Joke? I have a dim memory of it, but I was never a Batman monthly reader. Just TPs and 1-offs.

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Reply #133 on: July 03, 2011, 10:48:55 AM

Yes.
Tannhauser
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Reply #134 on: July 03, 2011, 11:12:33 AM

If you haven't read "The Killing Joke" kill everyone in your way to purchase it.
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Reply #135 on: July 03, 2011, 05:07:02 PM

I concur.

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DLRiley
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Reply #136 on: July 07, 2011, 04:09:23 AM

If you haven't read "The Killing Joke" kill everyone in your way to purchase it.
comic books aren't that badass anymore.
angry.bob
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Reply #137 on: July 07, 2011, 05:47:21 PM

If you haven't read "The Killing Joke" kill everyone in your way to purchase it.
comic books aren't that badass anymore.

I'm glad that my comic reading days were the 1980's. The stuff before it is all sort of derpy and the industry post-Image heyday is fucking-a baby-to-death awful. I've tried several times to get back into comics, especially for a common hobby with my kid, only to be turned off on how fucking retarded they are. Sadly, a couple of the books I did manage to find that I liked got killed by DC's reboot. I really liked the Amanda Connor PG, but the book lost it's appeal fast after she left and the story started skipping because I wasn't going to read the 20 other books they shoehorned her into for whatever storyline was going on. Some shit with evil Max Lord or something. 80's JLA > than the entire current lines of DC and Marvel together.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 09:44:56 PM by angry.bob »

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Khaldun
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Reply #138 on: July 07, 2011, 06:43:25 PM

There was one hope that this would all work out well: that they'd launch a shitload of comics that broke decisively with continuity-choked crap and got great art/writing teams on any concept that they thought was worth doing.

Well, about 50% of the FIFTY-TWO TITLES they're trying to launch have the absolute same utter shit writers and artists that have been sinking their monthly books for years, with no hint of a conceptual twist that will make the character or title more interesting. J.T. Krul, for example, has TWO ongoings in the relaunch. This is the guy who penned a four-issue miniseries with Green Arrow's ex-sidekick that killed off his young daughter and had the sidekick high on heroin fighting muggers in an alleyway with a dead cat that he thought was his daughter. Not played for morbid camp. Every hack that's been killing DC slowly is getting a chance to kill it faster. Sure, there's about 5-10 sort of potentially interesting concepts/teams in the mix, but under a quarter of viable titles doesn't strike me as a good publishing model or even a good way to develop future intellectual property for movies or TV shows.

Warner really needs to just shut DC down for about six months, shit-can everyone, and then hire a few fresh people who are just going to tell good stories with the basic core characters.
Khaldun
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Reply #139 on: July 17, 2011, 04:32:50 PM

So, some very good storylines by good writers are effectively shutting down well before they should. And...for what? I'm one of the manboys that the whole thing is supposedly supposed to make happy. Right, more Geoff Johns continuity porn--old characters in new 90s costumes with some nostalgia hooks and some surplus decapitations and arms-ripped-off. Just as incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't read comics for ages. SHUT THE WHOLE THING THE FUCK DOWN. Now.
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