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Author Topic: Buying a new car, need some advice  (Read 341689 times)
Strazos
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Reply #385 on: July 04, 2016, 07:04:53 PM

So I have (or have had, for the past two years) a 2012 Wrangler. Driving it cross-country now, the only issues are:

1) High-speed stability leaves something to be desired...but it's a Jeep, so duh.
2) My rear driver's side blinker goes out intermittently, which is annoying. I'll have to address it once I'm back home. It stopped working for about 10 days...then magically was working for a week, and is now again not working.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Otherwise, it seems pretty dependable...though that could be because I only have about 20k miles on it at this point.

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Selby
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Reply #386 on: July 04, 2016, 07:26:28 PM

Thanks, hell that is one of my issues, I have frame rot on both sides of my Wrangler now, that and replacing the water pump, radiator, & heater core (& thermastat, & hoses/clamps), are pressing issues on my Wrangler.
I believe you're in Ohio if I recall (or at least up north), practically everything up there over 6 years old is going to have frame issues sooner rather than later.  Water pump, radiator, heater core, etc are all just wear items needing to be done on a car once it's hit 6+ years old, sooner if they aren't maintained well.  Jeeps have been somewhat notorious for rot and suspension problems on the Wranglers for a while now and electrical problems go back to the AMC era.  Even here in the south I see cars that have obviously spent most of their time off the road in the dirt without being taken care of and their frames and bodies are having problems.

The good news if you do those items, chances are you're good for another 6+ years without issue, minus the rot issues.  The Liberty is going to continue to nickle and dime you, I've not heard of anyone having great luck with them.  The 2011+ models are going to have more and more Mercedes content on them (read: $$$).

If you need an all-weather vehicle that won't give you too much trouble, the Cherokee with the 4.0 is a pretty solid customer and the Toyota automatic in them gives virtually no trouble.  Run forever.  Consider investing in finding one from the southwest (non-rusty) to be ahead on the vehicle rotting away.
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Reply #387 on: July 04, 2016, 08:43:24 PM

I just broke 150k (mostly Highway, some crazy off road) miles on my 2008 FJ. I'm on the second set of tires, and replacing the original brakes tomorrow. Haven't had any issues, and am just doing the brakes/rotors just in case, they're still in spec, but that many miles is just crazy. I should probably do a tune up too. But it still drives just wonderfully, and after the new brakes are worn in I'll be doing a drive across the Pikes Peak national forest again.
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Reply #388 on: July 04, 2016, 08:48:16 PM

Both our cars are over 150k--a Subaru Forester and an old Saturn. We are edging closer to getting a new car, but both run for the moment pretty well.
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Reply #389 on: July 05, 2016, 12:24:00 AM

I just broke 150k (mostly Highway, some crazy off road) miles on my 2008 FJ. I'm on the second set of tires, and replacing the original brakes tomorrow. Haven't had any issues, and am just doing the brakes/rotors just in case, they're still in spec, but that many miles is just crazy. I should probably do a tune up too. But it still drives just wonderfully, and after the new brakes are worn in I'll be doing a drive across the Pikes Peak national forest again.

Just a heads up, I'd do that tune up sooner rather than later. I'm sure by 08 all Toyota stuff was COP, and the newer coil packs seem to really dislike increased electrical loading. I mean, it's possible that all of my break down maintenance customers have just had really bad luck with their vehicles, but I'm inclined to think their shitty maintenance schedules have karma'd up their lives.

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Sky
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Reply #390 on: July 05, 2016, 09:41:38 AM

Hey Sky and any other FJ Cruiser owners, any real complaints on them? It is sad as hell Toyota stopped making them  sad My son's Liberty is freaking nickle and dime'ing me to death, so I'm thinking of just getting a used 2007 FJ that is really sweet. He doesn't like the Wranglers, so the other thing might be a pickup for him, which case would be a Toyota or Ford (but Ford stopped the Ranger and manual transmissions...grrr).
Still love mine. Only complaint is the VSC (Vehicle Stability Control). On the 07/08 it's always on unless you have 4WD engaged, as of 09 there is a disable switch. 09 also sees the backup camera as standard, and most people need that because of poor rear visibility (I used to drive a dump truck, so I'm used to it, I can back into tight spots without it). The only other negative I can think of is the 07 has a minor flaw in the engine compartment if he's going to go rock crawling (it can crack).

If he likes pickups, the FJ is basically an SUV version of a Tacoma.

I just got my second set of tires for my FJ, too. I don't beat it nearly as much as Ratty, I just broke 44k miles  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS  I keep up with maintenance on it and have had zero issues. Refreshing change from Jeeps (always breaking down/requiring repairs). Also been thinking of a tune-up, just because I've had it so long.
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Reply #391 on: August 22, 2016, 07:33:49 AM

So we started our test drives over the weekend. Got lucky with the Mazda dealership, they were slammed so we basically got handed keys and a plate and took the cars. Which was really nice, because we were able to talk about stuff without a salesnerd up our butts and I felt a lot better about the shit I put those cars through (there's a great obstacle course on a parking lot nearby that I use for agility testing).

Mazda CX-3 GT felt pretty underwhelming. Engine should have more power for the size, felt like it was struggling even in the 'sport' gearing. Too bad, it was comfortable and had good tech; but my stubby shortling fiancee felt closed in and didn't like the cargo space (metric is 'can we load our bikes in it?'). Still tentatively in, but probably out.

Mazda 3s GT had similar issues with power. Better than the CX-3, but not much. Really nice handling on the obstacles, ridiculously small turn radius. Super low car, uncomfortably so. Felt like we were sitting on the ground and we couldn't see around most other vehicles. Also comfortable, bigger cabin but still tight for cargo, same tech package. Between the low seating and lack of AWD, I think this one is out already.

Subaru Crosstrek Premium...loved it. Unfortunately they didn't have a premium on the lot, so we drove a mid-range model. Felt plasticky and cheap compared to the Mazdas, and felt like last century compared to the Mazda's tech packages. But oh man, the ride was sooo good. Unfortunately, it's a shit dealership and we had the shit salesman along so we couldn't abuse it properly. And he took so long we didn't have time to drive an Impreza. Fuck that guy. Anyway. Great engine and drive train in this thing, punchy as hell. Suspension was beautiful. Better cargo than the Mazdas, and good seating position. Forgot all about the lack of luxury in the interior because it's just a great driver. It was my favorite from the specs and I'm hoping she gets one, but my money would be on her wanting an Impreza.

We're going to have to drive a few cities away to go to a better Subaru dealer (seriously, fuck that dealership), hopefully drive a premium model and also an Impreza. We can test a Golf in town, not sure we want to waste the time testing the Honda HR-V EX-L. Also hope we can find a Pruis 4 in stock somewhere to test.
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Reply #392 on: August 22, 2016, 07:53:30 AM

Try a Mazda 3 speed.

Subaru's struggle from underpowered engines and a lack of creature comforts.  If you want a nice interior, don't get a Subaru.

I'd also encourage you to test drive a GTI.  Huge fan.

Honda's are underpowered but have nice interiors.  Nice compromise between Mazda and Subaru. 

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Reply #393 on: August 22, 2016, 08:19:08 AM

I wouldn't call the Subaru underpowered at all. She had to struggle to keep it under the speed limit. Though she's lightfooted and doesn't push cars the way I do, but it is for her to drive, not me.

She's not really interested in the GTI version of the Golf. I'll try to get her to try one while we're on the lot.

Is the Mazda 3 speed the 's' version? I think she wanted the 'i' but if the 's' improves the lack of punch in the 3, she might revisit it. But man, that thing sits so low I really didn't like it at all. Also, no AWD. Winter.
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Reply #394 on: August 22, 2016, 08:26:17 AM

If you think the Mazda 3 is too low, don't even bother with the GTI.

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Reply #395 on: August 22, 2016, 08:51:48 AM

The sales dude who sold me my G37 made the mistake of telling me to "drive it like I stole it".

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Reply #396 on: August 22, 2016, 09:26:38 AM

I wouldn't call the Subaru underpowered at all.

0-60 in ~9s seems like an eternity to me.  I'm adjusting to my Jeep Wrangler being sluggish and it does a 6.7s.

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Reply #397 on: August 22, 2016, 09:32:05 AM

The sales dude who sold me my G37 made the mistake of telling me to "drive it like I stole it".
You don't need to do that though, unlike the VTEC Hondas where you had to hit the higher RPMs to get it to switch over to the performance cam profile.
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Reply #398 on: August 22, 2016, 09:39:31 AM

If you think the Mazda 3 is too low, don't even bother with the GTI.


Yeah, just get another SUV. You keep talking about "road height" and "seeing around other vehicles"  You're not getting that with SUVs and Minivans on the road. As a lifetime Sedan driver (fuck SUVs) you learn skills to compensate for the inability to see through other vehicles these days because every motherfucker on the road has to "sit high so I can see."  Ohhhhh, I see.

*cough*

Anyway, just go for the SUVs and stop looking at crossovers. They'll all be too low for you.

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Reply #399 on: August 22, 2016, 09:43:04 AM

Where does "I need to see over the other cars" end?

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Reply #400 on: August 22, 2016, 09:46:15 AM


'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
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Reply #401 on: August 22, 2016, 10:00:47 AM

Anyway, just go for the SUVs and stop looking at crossovers. They'll all be too low for you.
This is for her, not me. She doesn't want a large vehicle, she currently drives a Toyota Matrix and would buy another if they still made them.

As I said, I think the Crosstrek is about perfect. But at the end of the day, it's her decision.

My vehicle is the exact one I want and it's small by truck/suv standards. It's built on a Tacoma frame. We really don't have to do the 'suvs are huge and stupid' hippy bullshit every time, do we?
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Reply #402 on: August 22, 2016, 10:18:11 AM

The sales dude who sold me my G37 made the mistake of telling me to "drive it like I stole it".

I can't be sure, but I'm pretty confident the salesman made a black joke.
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Reply #403 on: August 22, 2016, 10:38:30 AM

Kind of but not really. I first heard that in the context of the Honda Del Sol where you essentially had to drive at near redline all the time to get decent engine performance from it because of the above mentioned VTEC system. There were earlier engines with VTEC but they either weren't designed to be sporty cars or had larger displacements so didn't need to be driven hard all the time to get decent performance. The S2000 also had this issue as well.
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Reply #404 on: August 22, 2016, 10:44:57 AM

Anyway, just go for the SUVs and stop looking at crossovers. They'll all be too low for you.
This is for her, not me. She doesn't want a large vehicle, she currently drives a Toyota Matrix and would buy another if they still made them.

As I said, I think the Crosstrek is about perfect. But at the end of the day, it's her decision.

My vehicle is the exact one I want and it's small by truck/suv standards. It's built on a Tacoma frame. We really don't have to do the 'suvs are huge and stupid' hippy bullshit every time, do we?

Only every time you bring-up visibility over other cars. You keep saying it's for her, but you're going to influence things when you make comments like that and clearly aren't happy with the choice. It's not a hippie thing as there's good reasons not to like them but I won't rant.


Anyway, back on the Mazdas, the "S" is a step-up from the Sports or the I model. The sports and i models are all 155hp 2.0L engines, the S models are 185hp 2.5L engines. If you want more than that, again, the SUV market is where manufacturers want you to go.

Not sure why you're getting 'it's too low' from the 3. It's got more ground clearance at 6.1" vs.  the Matrix's 5.8" It's 2" shorter though so maybe the lower roof is making you uncomfortable. You're about the same height off the ground, though.

If you had a pickup problem with the 155hp model, I don't know why you didn't with the Subaru as those are only 148hp. Gearing options, probably.

After those two cars, the Prius and the GTI, you're sort of out of 5-door options. The Honda Fit is much smaller, the Ford Focus is a Ford, BMW 4-series is going to be much more expensive, Yars is the Smartcar of Toyota, Chevy Sonic has no cargo, and the Volt has range issues being electric.  Not sure you can fit bikes any of them.

Hyundai also has the Veloster, but I'm not a fan of their cars. Great warranty, though.

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Reply #405 on: August 22, 2016, 12:01:17 PM

Kind of but not really. I first heard that in the context of the Honda Del Sol where you essentially had to drive at near redline all the time to get decent engine performance from it because of the above mentioned VTEC system. There were earlier engines with VTEC but they either weren't designed to be sporty cars or had larger displacements so didn't need to be driven hard all the time to get decent performance. The S2000 also had this issue as well.


VTEC engages around 5k for me and redline is around 7.5k. I don't push it that often, but my RAM air intake growls pretty nicely when I do. Outside of the occasional open road 'let it rip' moments, I keep it more in the maximum gas mileage range.

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Reply #406 on: August 22, 2016, 03:10:25 PM

Kind of but not really. I first heard that in the context of the Honda Del Sol where you essentially had to drive at near redline all the time to get decent engine performance from it because of the above mentioned VTEC system. There were earlier engines with VTEC but they either weren't designed to be sporty cars or had larger displacements so didn't need to be driven hard all the time to get decent performance. The S2000 also had this issue as well.


I assume that was not what he was saying.  Rather he probably figured out I wanted something sporty and was urging me to test it.  I believe he regretted it.  I know my father-in-law did. why so serious?

I can't be sure, but I'm pretty confident the salesman made a black joke.

I did buy it in Alabama so yes, this is entirely possible.  Maybe I should not have asked for the large rims.

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Reply #407 on: August 22, 2016, 04:40:18 PM

This is for her, not me. She doesn't want a large vehicle, she currently drives a Toyota Matrix and would buy another if they still made them.

As I said, I think the Crosstrek is about perfect. But at the end of the day, it's her decision.

My vehicle is the exact one I want and it's small by truck/suv standards. It's built on a Tacoma frame. We really don't have to do the 'suvs are huge and stupid' hippy bullshit every time, do we?

You guys should check out the Scion iM, which is pretty much the spiritual successor to the Matrix.  5-door Toyota hatch, though it's a bit weak (137HP) in the engine department.  Even looks pretty nice, IMO.  The Hyundai Tucson with the 1.6 Turbo might also be worth looking at.  A buddy of mine bought one a couple of months ago, and it's a damned nice (if small) CUV.

After those two cars, the Prius and the GTI, you're sort of out of 5-door options. The Honda Fit is much smaller, the Ford Focus is a Ford, BMW 4-series is going to be much more expensive, Yars is the Smartcar of Toyota, Chevy Sonic has no cargo, and the Volt has range issues being electric.  Not sure you can fit bikes any of them.

Hyundai also has the Veloster, but I'm not a fan of their cars. Great warranty, though.

The Veloster is completely gutless unless you buy the Turbo (which is actually pretty entertaining) - it's also maybe a half-size smaller than what they're looking for - same with the Yaris and Sonic - the Cruze is pretty close, and the upcoming Cruze 5-door looks pretty spiffy.

As for the Focus, if you can drive a stick, I'd recommend them.  Avoid the twin-clutch monstrosity they're using as the automatic option - it's a huge failure point on those cars (same for the Fiesta) with its own extended warranty because of all of the issues.  That said, I love my ST - it's a complete hoot to drive.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 04:45:28 PM by MisterNoisy »

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Reply #408 on: August 22, 2016, 05:42:37 PM

I wouldn't call the Subaru underpowered at all.

0-60 in ~9s seems like an eternity to me.  I'm adjusting to my Jeep Wrangler being sluggish and it does a 6.7s.

You must own the fastest Jeep Wrangler ever made
Kind of but not really. I first heard that in the context of the Honda Del Sol where you essentially had to drive at near redline all the time to get decent engine performance from it because of the above mentioned VTEC system. There were earlier engines with VTEC but they either weren't designed to be sporty cars or had larger displacements so didn't need to be driven hard all the time to get decent performance. The S2000 also had this issue as well.


Pretty much all gasoline engines are like this. Power = Torque x RPM. Peak torque will be around 4000, 4500 and peak power somewhere above that. Even people running the big 250+ HP engines are only running around the 50-100 range for the majority of their driving, with the top end around 150. While that isn't low, the point is that no one really feels these cars are underpowered when driving in these ranges*.

The biggest factors in being able to really get anything out of cars of almost any power level today is

1) transmission: Automatic transmissions slip under high power; won't hold gears unless you're aggressive all the way through the cycle, and won't downshift in advance of acceleration. These are the things that make a car feel zippy. (that and low weight)

2) drivetrain: If its front wheel drive you won't get anything off the line due to the weight shifting and losing traction but won't make much of a deal for at-speed acceleration. Ideal is RWD for everything but the snow but AWD is just fine so long as you don't push it hard in corners to the point of under-steer. Though AWD will necessarily be slower due to the added differential adding weight.

*The exception is if you're at a high elevation. Wooo boy, took my 150 HP Mazda 3 through the Eisenhower Tunnel and that was tough going.
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Reply #409 on: August 22, 2016, 05:50:28 PM

This is for her, not me. She doesn't want a large vehicle, she currently drives a Toyota Matrix and would buy another if they still made them.

As I said, I think the Crosstrek is about perfect. But at the end of the day, it's her decision.

My vehicle is the exact one I want and it's small by truck/suv standards. It's built on a Tacoma frame. We really don't have to do the 'suvs are huge and stupid' hippy bullshit every time, do we?

You guys should check out the Scion iM, which is pretty much the spiritual successor to the Matrix.  5-door Toyota hatch, though it's a bit weak (137HP) in the engine department.  Even looks pretty nice, IMO.

Only problem with Scions is Toyota is sunsetting the brand. If it's anything like when GM closed all those brands then you'll be pressed to find parts for a while until the aftermarket catches up. I experienced this in my Saturn and it wasn't fun.

http://pressroom.scion.com/releases/scion+transition+toyota.htm

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Reply #410 on: August 22, 2016, 06:03:05 PM

This is for her, not me. She doesn't want a large vehicle, she currently drives a Toyota Matrix and would buy another if they still made them.

As I said, I think the Crosstrek is about perfect. But at the end of the day, it's her decision.

My vehicle is the exact one I want and it's small by truck/suv standards. It's built on a Tacoma frame. We really don't have to do the 'suvs are huge and stupid' hippy bullshit every time, do we?

You guys should check out the Scion iM, which is pretty much the spiritual successor to the Matrix.  5-door Toyota hatch, though it's a bit weak (137HP) in the engine department.  Even looks pretty nice, IMO.

Only problem with Scions is Toyota is sunsetting the brand. If it's anything like when GM closed all those brands then you'll be pressed to find parts for a while until the aftermarket catches up. I experienced this in my Saturn and it wasn't fun.

http://pressroom.scion.com/releases/scion+transition+toyota.htm

Yeah, I know about the brand going away, but I'm pretty sure the iM is coming along for the ride to the mother ship along with the 86/FR-S.  Either way, the iM is largely derived from the Auris sold elsewhere in the world and shares a driveline with other Toyotas, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

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Reply #411 on: August 22, 2016, 06:30:24 PM

You must own the fastest Jeep Wrangler ever made

2012 Jeep Wrangler sport with a 6 speed manual. The time came directly from Motor Trend.  Apparently there are thousands of them on the road.   Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Quote
Thanks to the new 285-hp 3.6-liter V-6 than in its previous generation, the Wrangler is no longer the rolling roadblock it was with the old pushrod 3.8 engine. In our testing, a six-speed manual-equipped Wrangler Sport accelerated from 0-60 mph in 6.6 seconds, and came to a dead stop from 60 mph in 147 feet.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 06:37:22 PM by Nebu »

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Reply #412 on: August 22, 2016, 07:16:25 PM

I was right. Before I made the post I looked up 0-60 times and the 2012 wrangler sport was the fastest wrangler ever made hence the joke.
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Reply #413 on: August 22, 2016, 07:52:11 PM

The FJ can dump gas into the engine and really kick into gear nicely. Scares the shit out of the old lady when I pass, because I just stand on it and BAM I'm down the road.

Really love the torque and power on it.

Anyway, it's a no to the Fit etc tiny cars. And she's only looking at auto trans. She will probably try the GTI because the VDubs dealer is the only decent one in our city, so we can spend time there (versus traveling an hour+ to find a good Subaru dealer).
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Reply #414 on: August 22, 2016, 09:32:23 PM

Kind of but not really. I first heard that in the context of the Honda Del Sol where you essentially had to drive at near redline all the time to get decent engine performance from it because of the above mentioned VTEC system. There were earlier engines with VTEC but they either weren't designed to be sporty cars or had larger displacements so didn't need to be driven hard all the time to get decent performance. The S2000 also had this issue as well.
Pretty much all gasoline engines are like this. Power = Torque x RPM. Peak torque will be around 4000, 4500 and peak power somewhere above that. Even people running the big 250+ HP engines are only running around the 50-100 range for the majority of their driving, with the top end around 150. While that isn't low, the point is that no one really feels these cars are underpowered when driving in these ranges*.
That is how regular car engines work* but that's not how VTEC works.

With regular engines there's a band of high torque for a few thousand RPMs and then a steep fall off until the engine reaches its redline and peak HP on these engines usually comes right after the torque starts to fall off as you mentioned. With VTEC the torque fall off comes much later in the RPMs which means peak HP doesn't come until much closer to the redline.

E.g. here are some dyno graphs (from this article).

Here's the turbocharged 2.0L 2007 VW GTI graph:




And here's the 2.0L 2007 Honda Civic SI graph:



Notice how the torque on the Civic, even though it's substantially lower than the GTI's doesn't drop significantly until it reaches almost the redline. There's even a noticable bump in torque when it switches to the high RPM cam profile, though that's just an extra bonus as it's the extended torque range and the higher redline that gives it the high HP.

Both are 2.0L engines but the VW is turbocharged and the Honda is not. It's VTEC that allows for the Civic to have a comparable HP output without the turbocharging but you have to drive it at crazy high RPMs to get that sort of output while the GTI you do not.


* Unfortunately my example uses a turbocharged engine as a comparison which has its own differences from a regular non-VTEC, non-forced induction engine but it's close enough to make my point


« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 09:34:18 PM by Trippy »
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Reply #415 on: August 22, 2016, 10:50:03 PM

Turbos spin up fast enough now that they aren't really any different than a NA engine config. It probably has a flatter curve than a normal 2.0L NA engine.

I have to say I did not realize that Honda was that aggressive with its number jobbing. That is one shitty torque curve for regular driving. I mean 6 to 8 is about the same as 4 to 6 so it should be possible to set a ratio that lets you stay in that range. But if for any reason you have to hop it Christ that is terrible. And those ratios are going to make your normal driving just suck

Buuuut even then the Honda makes 60-120 from 2.5 to 5. The Jetta makes 50-140 from 2 to 4. Which should be about the normal driving ranges. The Honda isn't that much weaker.
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Reply #416 on: August 22, 2016, 11:11:13 PM

Turbos spin up fast enough now that they aren't really any different than a NA engine config. It probably has a flatter curve than a normal 2.0L NA engine.
Yes a well tuned turbo does have a flatter and extended torque curve which is why it wasn't as good as comparison as I was looking for.
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Reply #417 on: August 23, 2016, 03:08:52 AM

Went to talk to the Ford dealer this past weekend and he was really pushing me towards 2013-2015 Fusions. They're ok cars, but I am not sure I'm a huge fan of the all electronic digital radio/AC/dash controls. My mom had an Edge and her display just used to randomly turn off (including the AC), requiring shutting the car off and turning it back on. That would drive me crazy. I sat in a Subaru but it felt super cheap inside & I didn't like the fit of the seat or steering wheel. I'm not sure they make cars for me anymore...
Merusk
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Reply #418 on: August 23, 2016, 04:06:11 AM

Camry may be the khakis of cars but it's popular for a reason. You should take a look if you were considering a Fusion.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Selby
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Reply #419 on: August 23, 2016, 05:47:49 AM

That's exactly what my dad said. I miss the days of bigger cars that made getting in & out easier!
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