f13.net

I''ve been thinking about getting a new vehicle for a few months now.  I decided that I want an SUV type, nothing huge, but something a little bigger than the car I'm driving now (2007 Chev Malibu).  I'm really leaning towards either a 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe http://hyundaicanada.com/pages/showroom/showroom.aspx?model=santa%20fe (http://hyundaicanada.com/pages/showroom/showroom.aspx?model=santa%20fe) or Tucson http://hyundaicanada.com/pages/showroom/showroom.aspx?model=Tucson (http://hyundaicanada.com/pages/showroom/showroom.aspx?model=Tucson).  The Santa Fe would be the 3.5 GL AWD model, while the Tucson would be the GLS AWD model.  Hyundai has a deal going on now, too, where theres no interest on payments for up to 7 years.  Does anyone have any experience with those two SUV's or maybe recommend another one from a different company in a similar price range or maybe some general car buying tips?  Thanks.

There's nothing really wrong with either one, and they're near the bottom of the price range for the class.  You're not going to get something of significantly higher quality without paying a much higher price, so if you like how those drive and feel, go for it.

Myself, I never buy brand new cars, even when I can afford to buy them with cash.  Let somebody else take the depreciation for driving it off the lot.

--Dave

Only input I can offer is I love my 2004 Santa Fe and when it's time to upgrade, I'll be looking at them again.  I've had no problems with it at all and while the gas mileage isn't fantastic (average 18mpg city) it's fine for me.

You pay rather substantial "soccer mom" premium for going SUV. Do you need that much of a car more than a couple times a year?

Consider Forester or Odessy.

There are two main reasons I want to get an AWD SUV.  The 1st being room.  I'm 6'4 and around...270 :ye_gods:, so I need the space.  The 2nd reason is I live in western Canada.  We had a big snow storm last Thurs. and its been snowing all weekend.  So basically winter isn't over here until after May and having an AWD vehicle would be nice to have.

Land Rover Evoque.  :heart:

I'll echo Sinij on the Subaru Forester. It's of similar size & price as the SantaFe and Subaru *was* giving out some great deals because they'd taken over all of Saturn's shops (locally at least) and wanted to drive business. You might want to give them a look.

If you don't have the hangups others do about driving a Minivan, I'd go with the Toyota Sienna over the Odyssey.  The guy I know who has an Odyssey has had to put it in the shop at least 3 times in the last 3 years and it's only 5 years old. Plus the Sienna is about 3k cheaper, on average.

The only car buying advice I have is the same Dave already gave about buying new.

Wife's father had a Santa Fé and he lives on the front range in Colorado so they get some mighty snow too. The car was horrible in the snow because it turns out that AWD is still shit if the centre of gravity is so far up that the car slides all over the place anyway. As for space, I'm about your height and I don't have significant problems getting into regular sized cars - in fact I fit with room to spare in my friend's Audi TT (which is also an AWD car as it happens). If you need hauling space then I'd suggest an AWD estate car such as one of the Audis or Subarus as the lower centre of gravity really makes a difference in shitty conditions. If you just want an AWD car and don't care about hauling space then I'd still recommend not getting an SUV, they aren't nearly as practical as they look or as safe.

Best friend's wife has a Santa Fe from 03 or so, still in great shape.  We used it to move their dogs from Ohio to Seattle last year.  It has to be getting close to 200k, she's with a non-profit that has her all over the city everyday.  No major issues, but they kept up with maintenance pretty decently.

When we buy our next it will be either a Forester or Outback, though I wouldn't hesitate to look at the Hyundai. 

For realz, the best SUV you could probably get is the Skoda Yeti, but I don't think they sell that in Canada.

edit: VW Tiguan is a sister model so buy that!

I hear you, I am 6'3 and there are some cars that I simply cannot fit into.

AWDs are very nice to have in the snow, but don't assume that AWD will automatically result in decent snow handling. I currently drive FWD manual gearbox car, and I can get through more bad weather than a lot of these SUVs. If you know how to drive stick (and know how to drive it well in the snow) you will get a lot more benefit out of it than AWD.

Also, more and more cars have an option to have AWDs. A lot of them are premium, like Mercedes 4-matic or Infinity X, but some like Subaru (all Subaru are 4WD) are not. Don't automatically assume AWD = SUV or AWD = Good Snow Handling.

For example I recently looked at Subaru and was very impressed with Forester. I had LOTS of room and plenty of headroom, actually it felt like London Cab for headroom. Car is AWD and handled well. It also had fold-down seats and lots of storage room.

Another point to consider - buying new is also a hefty premium. You will be able to get substantially more car for your buck out of 2-year used.

I personally buy all my cars new, but then I drive them for 6-8 years and can afford to buy them outright. Doing math, it only makes sense to get new if you are a) driving them for 6+ years b) don't have to pay interest of more than 1%.

I'm looking at buying a vehicle soon too and holy fuck. Saw a 2010 with 45,000mi on it, where the hell are these people driving back and forth from?

I'm 6'3" and I drive a Fiat 500. It's perfectly comfy.  :grin:

If I had to guess, I'd say they're probably salespeople or product reps.  It's easy to put 100+ miles a day on a car that way.  Hell, I did 75miles per day just going back and forth from the office when I worked at the north end of the city.

My family has an AWD caravan with 200+ HP and has more space than any SUV on the market. Do you need the extra ground clearance or what?

I just bought an SUV (2011 Toyota Highlander) and I enjoy it quite a bit. It's roomy and nice inside and out, pretty comfortable for the wife and the new baby.

I originally looked at the 2011 Foresters (I love my Outback turbo) and thought it was very utilitarian inside, *but* it has a ton of room - not as comfortable as the Highlander, but tons and tons of headroom and legroom. I'd recommend sitting/driving one if you are worried about space. They also handle very well in snow. Get the turbo version if you want it to be fun to drive. (XT model I think).

Any recommendations on a non-domestic, small SUV that I could use to haul kayaks, canoes, and the like in?  My only other stipulation is that it has to have enough room in the back, that I could sleep in it (I'm 6' tall) with the seats folded down or removed. 

I love my GTI, but it just isn't any good for camping and outdoor mountain trips.  I'm also thinking about a tour around Canada and Alaska, so being able to sleep in it is a must.

What's wrong with a roof rack?

Nothing.  I can't sleep in the back of my GTI.

What's wrong with sleeping on a roof rack?

I'm single and don't have any kids.  A mini-van wouldn't be very good for me.  I'm just looking for something a little bigger and more winter friendly than what I have now (I still like my Malibu, great car).

Also i just found out they stopped making the AWD caravan, so you would have to do a search.

Way too lazy to look up dimensions, but Subaru WRX Wagon, if they still make them.

http://www.vw.ca/ca/en_ca/new_models/tiguan.html

I have heard decent things about the Hyundai models. With the exception being resale value and fuel consumption (18-20 or so). The fuel consumption is mainly due to it being an AWD, and its problem across the market with AWD cars/SUVs.

So having said that (based on gas mileage) I would highly suggest you take a look at the brand new Subaru Impreza which has been announced as being the first and only AWD vehicle on the market achieving 36 MPG.
They will producing it in a wagon model with the Outback Sport outfitting (for outdoor enthusiasts).


Link for 2012 unveiling: http://www.subaru.com/auto-show/index.html
News announcement of 2012 Impreza and NY Autoshow unveiling: http://autoinformed.com/2011/04/07/subaru-to-debut-2012-impreza-at-new-york-auto-show/

Link for what the current 2011 Impreza Outback Sport model looks like: http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza/index.html


Nebu,
I dont know if the roof bars come standard on the Impreza or not for carrying things, nor do I know if a six foot person could sleep in it. I can sleep in the back of my 4Runner with the rear seats folded flat, and have done so while camping with the wife before. But being a V8 my gas mileage sucks (16-18mpg highway usually).

What are you strategies for buying new cars? I try to do it in December, so sales people are desperate to +1 their sales numbers. Aside from that, I try to get close to invoice price (dealers generally get cars 3-5% below invoice price).

As a Canadian, I must say this: the GMC Safari / Chevrolet Astro is the alpha and the omega of plowing through snow like a motherfucking tank while carrying a ton of shit and leaving you enough room to sleep.  It's pretty much the one vehicle that should not have been removed from GMC / Chevrolet's lineup.

I'd buy a used Honda S2000....And have fun all summer.

Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.

And if I was a rich, I'd get the AEV Conversion (http://www.aev-conversions.com/vehicles/jk_wrangler.php), pretty much not going to touch me off road, unless I run out of gas.

I have a jeep liberty that is my daily driver and a CJ-7 that is my fun vehicle to go to Redbird or Bad Lands offroad parks.

Something to think of is finding and old blazer from 1969 to 1991 (1991 last of the straight axles and easy to work on and upgrade), heck sometimes you can find CCUV's (they were the blazers the US Army bought in diesel) for a great price.  Use it when the weather is bad, then keep a fuel saver for when not.

Bad thing is, fuel economy and off-road ability are usually on opposite sides, for off road ability you want vehicle height (from ground to the lowest part of your vehicle, usually your middle of the differential), bigger tires to increase performance, beefier parts, and more parts (extra axle, transfer case), so the deck is stacked against you.  Small 4x4's with small engines are not being made anymore, and the diesel engines keep getting killed in Canada and USA, plus I don't think you would feel comfortable in a smaller 4x4.

Just curious, but does anything really fit you being that tall?  I know many of the guys I know over 6'4" don't feel decent unless it is a bigger car or truck, heck does Lincoln or Cadillac make them big enough anymore?

The Chevy Malibu I currently have has enough leg and head room for me.  I'm just looking for something a little...more than what I have now.  I won't be using it for off roading, maybe just to go camping in the mountains (I live in Calgary and have a nice view of the Rockies every day).  I'll mostly be using it to go back and forth around the city and the odd day trip to visit some relatives that live a few hours away so the AWD would be useful for that considering the type of weather we get here.  Fuel economy is one of the big reasons I'm interested in the Santa Fe and Tucson, so something like a Jeep would be off the table for me.

Frankly, I've found FWD cars with good skid control (meaning they don't skid easily and are still steerable when they do) work better than AWD in the snow.  The only thing AWD does for you in the snow is give you more acceleration, which can get you out of some "stuck" situations that a good driver wouldn't have gotten into in the first place, but will get you into even more bad situation and also let you break all four tires loose at once, giving up *any* control.

Good aggressive tread tires on front wheel drive and an awareness of how the vehicle will handle in a skid is more useful in practice than AWD if you're never going to leave the road, but marketing has convinced a lot of people that they really *need* it in the snow.

--Dave

You've never driven in a place with hills have you? Yea tires always matter most, but you need tires and four wheels turning to get up hills.

My GTI is FWD and did just fine in the Rockies as long as I didn't high center it in deep snow.  To get through windy passes, I'd just put chains on and I'd be good to go.  The best part was that, as a manual, I could put it in gear when I got stuck and push it out by myself with the tires spinning.  Thankfully I can still run fast enough to catch it at idle speed. 

This is the best advice in the thread.

I did the new car thing last car and had a great experience with it.  11 years later I traded it in when I bought another new car.  Hopefully this one will get a solid 8+ years of use as well.

I definitely agree that buying new is questionable if you're expecting to sell it in a couple years, might as well look for something 1-2 years old in good shape for a better value.

Out of curiosity, why does everyone say buying new isn't a bad deal as long as you keep it for a long time?  Wouldn't you get the same benefit if you just bought it a few years old and still ran it to the ground?

I mean, I bought my car new but I also plan to be driving it 8 years from now (and I got 1% APR).  I'm just curious on people's reasons for it being more worth the money than a used car kept for a similar amount of time.

For me, it was more that I liked getting a car in factory condition, never been dinged up, abused, smoked in, whatever, under original warranty with no uncertainty.  Getting the best possible deal (from a purely monetary standpoint) was not the highest priority.  I got 11 years of enjoyable and pain-free use out of the vehicle, with no major expenses, only replacing parts that I expected to need replacing (tires, windshield wipers, eventually had brake work done), except for the alternator that died around year 10.

I don't want to run a vehicle in the ground -- I probably could have gotten quite a bit more use out of the old car, just finally decided to upgrade to something more wagon than coupe, the better to haul people or stuff around as needed.

Gotcha.  I was the same way about having a pure-untouched vehicle.  Then my car got hit 2 days after buying it brand new (with a $7500 repair bill to my insurance cause the douchebag drove away)

That's always the risk, sadly.  I got backed into about a year after buying the last car.  She was clearly at fault, some friends of mine happened to be walking back from lunch and took some pictures documenting the incident, and after two short phone calls ("I hear you were involved in an incident with one of our insured?" "Yes, she backed into me in a parking lot") and a visit from an adjuster, her insurance company covered all costs (about $2500).  The auto body place did a great job of putting things back together and afterwards it was pretty much impossible to tell that anything had ever happened, but it was still sad that somebody messed up my poor car.

I've only owned one car, but I've had it for 14 years now. I'm looking to get a new one myself (I own a 1997 Mustang GT) and I'm thinking about upgrading to one of these:

(http://www.egmcartech.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/2011_dodge_charger_images_main.jpg)

Good truck, though Jeep's taking some hits for QC lately. I would recommend the Toyota FJ, of course, but being tall might be an issue (I'm 6' and have to stop about a car-length from the stop line to see the traffic signal). Not a big deal to me, because otherwise it's wicked comfortable, moreso than the Rav4 I tested. If mileage is a big deal you're probably in the same boat as the Jeep, I get around 18/23 with the FJ, but I learned to drive from a NASCAR driver  :grin:

Really nice in 4WD in the winter, and 2WD in the summer.

I also like Jimbo's idea of the classic Bronco. I think my next purchase will be something like that for the winter and then (depending on gas prices!) either a classic muscle car or a mini cooper/smart car for summer. Hopefully that decision is about ten-fifteen years away.

Buying a car new means you start out with all the major systems at 0 miles, when they generally will need to be replaced or require serious maintenance between 60,000 and 100,000.  If you aren't putting on that many miles every year, you can get 8 years out of a new car with virtually no problems easily.  Hell, many new cars come with some pretty extended warranties.

Essentially, you are making up on the backend with reduced upkeep and maintenance costs what you paid on the front end.  Many sites will put a 5 year cost of upkeep for a car purchase, and you can see the large difference.


If you're married/have multiple vehicles and you have a good mechanic who doesn't soak you, buying only used cars can easily be a better deal.

The other thing to think about on 4 wheel drives, is do you really need them?  I usually go out to my mom and dad's farm, so I can semi-justify it (although the idea of a hybrid ford escape sound appealing, I hate automatics), but how often will you be engaging the transfer case?

Oh yeah the only thing dependable on a jeep is the inline 6 engine  ;D  I've had all kinds of shit break and have to fix things, i.e. that damn carter carb was the fucking devil's daughter and all the god damn hoses!  Was so glad to go to a clifford carb, plus depending on where your vehicle is from you have to play chase the rust monster around a lot.  The cool part is usually you and a buddy can fix the shit that breaks, like the alternator starts to whine, so we took it apart, repacked the bearings, and it got me threw until the newer one got purchased.  Don't buy a jeep unless you like to tinker, well the TJ's are a ton better quality than the YJ's and CJ's, can't say on the newer ones.

An older Ford Bronco would be sweet with the 1974 being the sweet spot if you can find one, has the stronger axles and upgraded steering and brakes, just a bear to find in decent condition that isn't expensive.  IH Scout II's are way cool, but good luck finding them, same with dodge power wagons or older FJ's.  I'm not a big fan of IFS (independent front suspension--swing axles) since I do low speed 4 wheeling, but if going fast you can't beat how they can handle the speed and keep you going, just remember it is a bear to work on that suspension (well not as bad as the 80's and 90's since more people make and work on them now).

I like the new Honda CR-Z and the Mini Cooper Convertible, but with my kid and his friends and all the other crap, it would be hard to get around, would end up borrowing my dad's pickup even more.

Nissan makes some pretty nice pickup trucks with 4 doors, just depends on if you need the 5 passenger and an open bed or closed bed.

Can't speak for a good car for snow (now floods, maybe!), but I'd echo the statements on roomy interiors.

DON'T limit your choices to what you "think" you can fit into. I'm 6'1", 270, and my wife's Beetle has so much interior room I don't even put the seat all the way back. (Mostly, but not all the way). I've sat in SUV's that didn't have enough leg or head-room for me -- interior size and dimensions vary more than you'd think.

Look at the best cars/SUVs/Trucks for what you're wanting to do -- mileage, driving conditions, how much you generally pack into your vehicle, etc. I'd also check with people who actually drive them in the conditions you're looking at -- especially if you are looking at an SUV -- it honestly seems like half the 4WD and such options are for people who will never use them, and their handling sucks in those modes because most people who buy the thing won't ever use it.

Narrow it down to the best four or five and THEN go sit in them and see if leg-room and head-room and all that is an issue. Hell, Carmax is surprisingly good for that -- they tend to have so many makes and models that you can go there, ignore the sales pitches, and sit in a dozen different vehicles by a dozen different companies and get a feel for what does and doesn't work.

Although the one car I did buy through there I got a good deal on, and was pretty happy with the service -- but that was eight years ago.

Montana, Colorado, Wyoming, Washington state.  Yes, I have driven on snowy roads that went over hills and mountains, in fact that's what I learned on.  If FWD and chains won't get you up it, you probably don't want to go down the other side, anyway.

--Dave

I'm all for the used car thing, unless you're buying a hybrid. Not about to go without a full warranty etc. on hybrid batteries.

As for buying a car, I found my experience with a car broker (from a local firm that's been around 10+ years) to be great, even when buying new. Buying used would be even better.

You always run a chance of an idiot PO. People that lease (75% of all 2-4 year old used cars) are very rarely take good care of their rides.


Mainly, because you can properly break-in car and can stay on top of maintenance from 0 miles, so you can drive nicer car for longer period of time. I for example, buy new cars and go extreme with maintenance - fully synthetic oil, below-recommended fluid changes, treat leather, service brakes,  don't park it outside, do rust prevention and so on. 2-4 years of quick-lube shops, no rust protection on salted roads, spill soda on gearshifter can do quite a number on longevity of your car. Plus there are some "lifetime fluid" gimmicks that industry doing (thankfully on the way out) that results in damage when people fail to change transmission oil or coolant on time.

Oh to go with the new car advice, leasing is a terrible idea.

I thought it was better if you were a business for tax purposes or something.

I like buying new.  My last 3 cars have been new.  If I had to buy used because I didn't have the money for new then I would (or I suppose if I was looking for a particular year of something).  Otherwise, I'd rather have it at zero miles and have my ass sweat be the first ass sweat on it.  We did briefly consider used for the vehicle class we were looking at, but for the actual one we settled on, used was an impossibility.

The SUV (X3) I got a month ago had 3 miles on it when we drove it home.   :yahoo:  Great ride so far.

I'm the same way, plus there's the peace of mind of being covered under warranty for the duration of your financing.

On that note, I just took home a new car.
Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track.  It's a little more extroverted than I'm used to, but I really wanted a proper RWD car this time.

For a lot less than the depreciation over the first few years of ownership, I can buy a gold-plated extended warranty on a used car.

--Dave

I just buy used cars that still have the factory warranty and buy the same extended warranty.  Spent 15k on a 25k car and I'm ok with that.  The only major repairs I've had to deal with were my own damn fault because I didn't see the gravel on the road that slid me into that Jeep.  :awesome_for_real:

Really, in the days of CarFax, certified used and 3rd party warranties the whole "omg I don't want to inherit someone else's problems" thing is largely fluff and ego.

Bullshit. Just sayin.

Man, I looked pretty seriously at those before I went with the car I bought. They are a really sweet car. Congrats.

Thanks!  It's kinda tough babying it through the break-in process - I want to just wind it out on a nice stretch of road and listen to the engine howl.  :P

:awesome_for_real:

I got the 7yr/70k mile platinum warranty for wicked cheap. I wanted a service contract that would outlast the payments, given a couple incidents with my fiancee's car. The payments are certainly annoying - can't afford a new pc for another couple years....but it's half paid off now!

I also do the undercarriage treatment, salt is a bitch. The service guys actually need to be told to perform all the maintenance listed in the book, they go by miles and I go by time (I put about 6.5k a year on it).

Wasn't possible on a Prius 4 years ago when I bought mine. I am led to believe that depreciation is still quite low on them.

You sir are quite wrong.
The only time leasing DOESNT make sense is on cars that dont depreciate or do-so very little, you drive a helluva lot of miles per year, or you have some sick fascination with maintaining/owning a car for more than 5 yrs.

In regards to low depreciation for cars like the new Prius, their leases are so attractive that it's still smart to lease one if you can get by the down payment (which is easy enough if you use a leasing broker or do some extra haggling.)
The keys are $0 down payment and leases that include maintenance.

I could weigh in on the lease v. own cost/benefit from a financial and tax perspective, but it's technical accounting shit and I'm not sure anybody really wants to go that deep down the rabbithole unless prompted.

During the oil shock right before the recession, there effectively wasn't one. The demand for the car was high enough that used models were going for almost as much as new ones.

Way too much demand, not enough supply. I luckily didn't buy mine until about three months later, when the recession had hit and gas prices fell -- dealerships had a lot of excess inventory at that point.

There was also something I recall about the warranties for used cards specifically on the hybrid batteries being ridiculously expensive.

On why leasing is bad (I'm not saying there aren't certain circumstances where it is a good deal), there are a bunch of reasons:

- You owe money without any collateral. If you end up being unable to pay for a car you bought, they take the car back. If you end up being unable to pay for a leased car, they take the car back and you're still on the hook to satisfy whatever the myriad conditions for getting out of the lease that you signed are. Both situations suck, but getting stuck holding a lease contract sucks more. This may not come up often, but bad shit can and does happen and if you lose your job or something it is usually better to be stuck with a car loan you can't pay off than a lease you can't. But hey there's usually some painful fee you can pay to get out of the lease early.

- Leases also almost always have mileage limits beyond which they charge you extra, and these limits are set low enough to come into play if you're really using the car regularly (and if you're not, you REALLY should just buy used.) The mileage limit is typically 12,000/year at the most. If you drive more than that (and most people do - I have a very short commute and only occasional trips of an hour-ish, and I put about 15k/year on my car) you are probably going to get bent over on the mileage charges. 20 cents a mile or whatever it is at these days adds up.

- When you get to the end of it, you have jack shit to trade in on the next one. You just keep paying full price, forever. If you buy the car, you pay a similar amount of money but at the end of it you have A CAR that you can trade in on the next one. In most cases when talking about a new car and a 5 year period (personally I can't see myself replacing my car more often than every 10 years, YMMV) the savings on the trade in for the next car will certainly exceed any savings there might be between a lease payment and a loan payment (its even better if you bought the car outright) especially if you are prone to fucking yourself on the mileage limits frequently.

- Probably there are several other reasons that I missed.

I'm sure there are certain tax situations where it makes sense, like if you can write the whole thing off as a business expense. I am also pretty sure you can write off depreciation, though, so always check with your local Paelos imo. Basically leasing is great... if you are a car dealer. You get to people pay for most of the cost of a new car, and at the end you get the car back to sell as a used car to someone else.

I guess if you had 2 years to live or something it would make a certain amount of sense.

Heh, in a normal car loan you still essentially owe money w/o any collateral.  This is why you're lucky to get a decent loan rate at a 5 yr. loan (banks really dont give a shit about using your car as collateral).  At which point you'd likely have spent over $30k for a $20k car.  Literally $10k is down the drain at the end of your loan period, not including depreciation on the car, taxes, maintenance, etc.

Also, leased cars are extremely easy to transfer/swap these days (info. travels much faster than 10+ yrs ago)... sometimes even at a profit (if you've got a car at high demand like the Prius).  Typically a dealer/broker will gladly take the car back if it means they can re-lease or sell it for more.  Now, if you OWNED the car you're pretty much immediately underwater on the loan, which means even selling it doesnt help you really.  Defaulting and getting it repoed doesnt mean you're free and clear either.

As for "trading in" (and getting crap for trade-in value) and buying new and all that nonsense.  Rarely does a car last you 5 yrs.  You can perpetually buy new or even used likely every 5 years and get killed in down payments and finance charges if you'd like... but to me perpetually paying a measly $250/month on a $40k car with free maintenance is a lot smarter.

(shrug)
Really, the only argument is mileage.  I never go over 10k/year in my cars and I've got no time to worry about bullshit carloans and maintenance so for me a lease is smart.
If I was daddy warbucks and could afford to put 50% down+repairs/warranty obviously that's a different story.

Nobody uses bank loans for buying new cars. I'm paying more than anyone I know at 1.9% APR, one person here is paying .9%, the other is paying no interest. A bank loan when I bought my truck in 2008 would've been around 11%.

I don't know what kind of vehicles you're driving that won't last 5 years, you need to look into better quality, son!

[edit]If I sold my truck for its Blue Book value right now (2 and a half years later), I'd walk away with $6k in my pocket. Buy a vehicle people want, with a solid reliability rating.

I'm not sure what planet he's posting from.

Cars that last under 5 years?  50% down? Huh?

I can only assume that on his planet the acidic atmosphere destroys cars at a faster rate than we experience here on Earth.

Well, I know plenty of people that don't own the same car for more than five years so maybe he meant that instead of it breaking down into dust. I still wouldn't call it a rarity, though.

I've had my car for seven years now and am looking to buy something soon. Not much more than five but then again it's a '96.

Arguing leases are worse than buying a car is like arguing renting is worse than buying a house.
Neither are always true.
If you like being in a new car every 2 to 3 years due to work (driving clients around etc) which is shorter than the industry average of 5-6 (which covers 95% of owners), then leasing is for you.
If you are able to maintenance covered (which is still rare when buying), then leasing is for you.
If you arent able to save a significant down payment and cant afford normal monthly payments without the down payment, then leases are for you.
Finally if you are a company and want to simply turn the keys over at the end of 3 years and have new vehicles delivered for your corporation, leasing is for you.

Is it easier to get raped by the sales people when leasing, more so then buying? Yes. Caveat Emptor.

There is no such thing as gold-plated warranty. Even "everything covered" warranty would not cover things that break most.

Buying extended warranties = waste of money. Huge scam perpetuated by fine print lawyering.

Do the math on total cost of ownership over 5 years. Leasing is by far most expensive option.


This is always the case when you borrow money. If you borrow, and most people do, leases are *always* higher interest than financing.

An extended warranty on my current car would've saved me a fuckton of money.

No it wouldn't. They would have showed you fine print and explained why none of it is covered. Extended warranties cover some engine work, some transmission work, compressor, alternator and some emission parts. Things that are not very likely to ever break in the modern car that would be eligible for extended warranty. If you car isn't "properly" maintained, and that includes buying all pointless schedule items that are money-maker for the dealer, like grease the fucking door hinges, or you put  any mods on you car forget about getting any money out of your warranty.

For example typical extended warranty would cover for head gasket failure, but only up to 120,000 miles or 5 years while you could expect any new car engine to not need it for the first 10 years or 200,000 miles. The same goes for almost any other component that they would cover, way below median life. Another example - most would tell you suspension is covered, but read fine print what they consider as a wear-and-tear item.  Another example - you put after-market stereo in your car; they now will deny you any and all electrical/wiring claims by blaming your stereo. Another example - you put short shifter kit on your car; you now voided any engine, transmission or drive train work.

The one time extended warranty makes sense if you _knowingly_ buying a lemon. Another one if you plan to race the shit out of your car and know how to game the system by taking off/hiding mods.

Does an extended warranty normally not cover the same things the factory warranty does? If that's true then you might be right, I'd have to go read the fine print to know for sure.

Edit: same things

Read the fine print. It doesn't.

Understood.

My only experience with an extended warranty was exactly like Sinij says.  Every little thing had a weasel clause to allow the warranty company to get out of fixing it. My personal example was transmission related: it had to just "break" and it couldn't have been brought in a mechanic because it was slipping, leaking ANY fluid, missing shifts, etc.  The electronic sensors were also not covered and neither were planetaries.  Basically it had to just up and mechanically die (and not break the case, which if you know auto trannies they rarely just up and die without major case failure) and anything else was not covered.  The fine print in that thing that I spent hours going over with the transmission repair guy was unreal.

Okay, fine, let me restate that: I could buy another used car with the amount that a new car depreciates in the first few years.

--Dave

Oh noes depreciation!

We buy new cars and drive them into the ground. Our reason is basically security, we want one car that is reliable--at one point it was for long trips and now it's because we have the sprog. So at any one time we generally have a 0-6 year old car and a 5-12 year old car. It's probably not logical. But we are willing to pay for it and our premium for buying new is rather low because we buy Japanese economy cars. They have low depreciation, so we wouldn't get much of a discount for buying recent used. And they're usually among the cheapest dozen or so cars available, so it doesn't amount to a large amount of money anyway.

I am a four/all wheel drive skeptic. Here's a great rule of thumb: if everyone where you live doesn't change from regular to snow tires in the winter, you don't need 4wd to live there. It's expensive and kills your gas mileage. (And if you think $4 is some kind of peak, you're crazy. It's only going to go up.) And I've lived in rural towns in the foothills of the Berkshires and driven past jeeps stuck in the snow while driving a fwd. Also, isn't there a mandate for all cars in the very near future to have traction control?

My understanding is leasing works out great for the 1950s crowd. People who buy a new car every other year. And yes, these people do still exist, though as far as I can tell they did, in fact, develop their purchasing habits in the 50s and 60s. We have several part time workers here who are retired well off women who have no need to work, but as far as I can tell, keep part time jobs for some "mad money" for the sole purpose of driving a brand new luxury car at all times. (This means we have several Lexuses in the parking lot that angry taxpayers throw in our faces as proof we're being over paid.)

I had an extended warranty. They're a joke. Even if you can cajole them into fixing things, they will do the absolute minimum. So if there's some bad widget in your transmission (and this is what happened to me) and the standard repair is to replace it and replace X, Y, and Z because they're cheap money, they're guaranteed to go if the other part did, and the thing is already disassembled which is 90% of the cost, the warranty will replace only the broken part and won't even allow you to pay for X, Y, and Z on your own money. And there I was 20k miles later after the warranty expired needing X, Y, and Z replaced. My understanding is these companies often disappear playing the bankruptcy and open under a different name thing.

 :facepalm:

I don't think you understand depreciation.

I really want to pick up one of these.

(http://www.fresnoscion.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/2011-scion-xb.jpg)

Needs black rims though.

One of my friends was bitching today that the gas pumps kept cutting off the gas at 75 dollars, and was bitching because she wanted to fill up her truck and she kept having to run it twice.

Which made me want to add -- definitely want to look at mileage. Gas isn't going to get cheaper.

Mileage wasn't something I paid any close attention to when I got my truck a couple years ago, and I'm seriously regretting it now.  I'm currently in the process of looking into what vehicle to get when I trade in the truck, and it's pretty high on the list of important criteria.  Unfortunately, I'm hampered in that not many vehicles have great headroom or legroom for someone who's 6 ft. 5. 

You'd be surprised.

Ford F150: Front Headroom 41", Front Legroom 41.4"
Honda Fit: Front Headroom 40.4", Front Legroom 41.3"

I'm trying to avoid another truck if I can, but I'll have to take a close look at the Honda Fit, it'd slipped my notice when I was first trying to find stuff with decent interior dimensions.  Thanks! 

I reiterate: Go to a Carmax, ignore the selling attempts, and sit in as many vehicles as you think might fit your needs. All it takes is time, and you can get a good idea of what manufacturers and models are likely to have the room you want.

Yep, I'm hoping to have time in the next week or so to start looking in earnest before I really start having to travel a lot again. 

Wait.  The Berkshires get snow?  When did that happen?


AWD/4WD doesn't help you stay on the road.  At all.  That's all your tires, which means that if you live in a climate with harsh and snowy winters you should have snow tires.

AWD/4WD help you accelerate and move forward.  In any place where you can see regular snowfalls of 6"-12"s, this is massively helpful to get going and to push through the drifts and tailings left by snowplows.  Also, if you do go off the road, it's usually easier to get a AWD/4WD back out.

Here, a major problem is driveways and intersections... places where the snow plows have pushed up a bank of snow & ice tailings that you need to bust through.  A 4WD, with better power and a higher wheelbase, has a much easier time then a car (or SUV on a car base).

Just about the only time I get stuck now, it's when I get the bodywork stuck on a snow drift...  which wouldn't be a problem if I didn't drive an Escape (which is on a car wheelbase).

I think I may have the car for you! (http://www.ford.com/trucks/transitconnect/)  :D  All kidding aside, I'm seeing more and more of these around town, and I think they're pretty keen.

I've seriously considered something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1929-Ford-Model-Tudor-Sedan-Hot-Rod-Rat-Rod-/300549249485?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item45fa2199cd#ht_500wt_1182) for a summer ride, too.  :drill:

I am not 6'5, but I can tell you that a lot of smaller cars have a ton of room as they are much more efficient on use of space than larger cars are. My friend has a Scion XB (like posted above) and it has more head/leg room for all passengers (front and back) than my parents' full-size Ford Expedition. It also gets close to 30 miles a gallon. Big problems are it looks like a damn shortbus and it has the guages in the center console which bugs the hell out of me.

I bought a diesel truck specifically because of this.  20MPG from a 5000lb truck that I can haul everything I own around in sure beats the gas equivalent of 8-12.  And I skipped the 4x4 as well (amusingly which is why the guy was selling it).  I use it for actually moving stuff around and since I have no friends with a truck...  I fill it up every 6-8 weeks after having driven ~350-400 miles or so and still have 3/8 of a tank.

Personally, I consider having to pay fuel prices a part of owning a car.  It allows me to get to work in 15 minutes vs. the 60 minutes public transportation takes.

As far as cars to fit in... sure being 6'3" myself I've had problems... but not anything overly recent.  Most of the "damn this car is tiny" comes from 70's and 80's econo-boxes I rode around in during high school.  My 2005 RX-8 has headroom issues, but not horribly.  All of the other cars I own have plenty of room.

Sure, if you don't mind driving THIS

(http://citizented.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/shit_car.jpg)

Generally speaking, anything made before mid 50s is not highway-worthy, unless its a sports car.

I'm at the point where I don't really care if it looks goofy or not, as long as it's comfortable for long drives and gets better mileage.  Between travel for work and trips to get the hell away from West Texas, I rack up a lot of hours on the road in a month.  Unfortunately, the few I've hopped into so far to test have me feeling like I'm in a clown car. 




Yeah, I don't mind paying for fuel in general.  Not that it matters, public transportation isn't an option at all for me out here.  Where it starts to hurt is whenever I travel.  I do get reimbursed for mileage for work travel, but it still adds up pretty quick, and it can get painful whenever I travel to Dallas or Austin.  I'd much rather spend that money elsewhere.   While having a truck has been handy at times, I really need something different for day to day use. 

More like a 4-5 year old version of the same model.  A 5 year old car generally costs half as much as the brand new version of the same model (there are numerous exceptions, as well as cars that go down in value far faster because they suck).

--Dave

Suck or are undersold. You've got 4-5 years of consumer feedback and repair history by that point to decide which it is, though.

And let's not pretend that buying new is an worry-free guarantee.  Work buddy had bought a brand-new Buick LaCrosse that had several problems with the belts and interior in the first 12 months. (Right up until he got rear-ended  :awesome_for_real:)

Didn't they design the lwb version around carrying a sheet of 4x8 material?

And! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1pklvKKnd0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1pklvKKnd0) (Actually that might be the transit, not the transit connect).

I like hondas fine, but I'm a tall guy too and my big feet never fit the damn pedals. I would never feel safe driving one until they space those suckers out a little more.

The only highway I use is optional. We're a two-car household, so in the summer we could use her compact for longer trips and in the winter we'd use the FJ.

I just plucked it out of the air to show that small cars may very well have good amounts of room. We love our Fit and probably will end up getting a second when the Mazda dies. It's cavernous inside. by folding all the seats, including the front, I was able to put a double bed from Ikea in the thing and was able to close the hatch. Not bad for something that gets 35+ mpg. And it's a load of fun to drive.

Currently they are selling 2011 4 door tundras for $22k with 0% financing for 5 years, I seriously doubt you could pick up a 2 year old one for under 20 and you certainly aren't going to get a 0% loan on it.  Seriously instead of blindly quoting rules of thumb just tell people to look at the deals and do the friggen math.  Wife just bought a new Camry hybrid, we paid 2k under msrp and financed it at 0%, pretty sure that deal wont be there in 6 months and with the 0% financing I can pretty much be assured I will never be under water on the car.

I have a 2007 Acura RDX I bought new.  The car is awesome.  It has lots of room like a small SUV but it drives like a sports car in some ways.  I wore out the tires in less than 40,000 miles I drive it so aggressively.  I use the shifting paddles (99% of it downshifting) for cornering and passing all the time. 

A really fun and practical car.

Buy new to avoid buying Shiz's old car  :grin:

Or my ex-GF's old car, she would buy a new car drive it for 35k miles w/o changing the oil then go get another new car.

This is not atypical, plus sale prep _designed_ to mask problems like that, so its not like you can do due-diligence and discover these problems. Still, I am surprised oil filter didn't plug by 35K, she must not drive on dusty roads.

It'll be fun trying to talk my service rep into oil changes before 15000 miles.  I really don't wait to wait that long.  Shit's dusty here.

You need to do more math.  Tundras get real-world MPG of 16-18 tops on the highway and cost $90 to fill the tank.  They're giving them away because at $4 per gallon nobody's buying what they're selling.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/26248.shtml

Everytime I gas up, I love my Prius more.

I wasn't comparing it to a Prius, I was simply stating that currently you can get a much better deal on a new tundra than a used tundra.  And if you need a full sized truck (which some people do) you are going to have a hard time finding anything above 20mpg.

I wasn't comparing it to a Prius either, that was Morat's Smug cloud invading the conversation and heading towards Denver.  Nobody's mentioned needing a truck other than "damn, not happy I bought one it's a gas guzzler."  The post certainly wasn't germaine to the original topic, much less what it's evolved in to.   

Agreed. I have them change the oil every time I have my 6 month service done. I should hit 15k miles with my 2 1/2 year service in May. After raising hell with the service department (nicely, but persistently), they usually perform everything I ask for, but I have to write it all out and verify over the phone that they understand what I wrote. They won't even stamp the damn maintenance log if I don't tell them.

The link Merusk provided is interesting, but it's a guideline. I get better mileage out of my FJ, but I drive it like an old lady most of the time. But I do use AC, 4WD, hilly driving, towing and carry loads. (not at the same time!) Not that we've had the conversation about folks who need utility vehicles vs those who don't, or how fast/slow people drive  :dead_horse:

Just had to haul my two new honeycrisp trees last night and really missed my pickup. I love the FJ but I should probably be driving a Tundra or at least a Taco.

Sorry, that was just general "Gas is fucking expensive" smugness, since I live in truck country (most driven by people who never use the beds for anything). I don't think they have out-and-out hybrid trucks, but I do know they have some smaller SUV's that have hybrid models with mileage in the high 20s and low 30s.

I can't fathom buying a car, truck, or SUV now without mileage being right there below "Does it do what I want it to do" on the decision list. I wouldn't buy a Prius for hauling shit around the mountains (although I drove mine through the million dollar highway in winter), but if I was faced with a dozen trucks that'd do the job, which gets the best mileage would be next.

It was a South Park joke.  I thought the Denver line would have given it away.  Apparently Abogadro and I were the only two who saw the episode.

I have a 2wd V8 2010 Tundra for work. I absolutely need it and have replaced the bed liner with a rhino liner after the factory liner wore out. I pay attention to fuel very closely. I drive like an old man, keep the rpms low. Being a six speed helps a lot. My best fuel mileage is 20 mpg. What saves me is most of my business needs are very local, within 20 miles or less. Ive owned fords and gms. I would never consider a different truck than a toyota now. Best truck if you need a truck.

My current car (05 Altima) was totaled, salvaged and retitled.  So I got it very cheaply.  The drive train is great, the roof leaks a bit, suspension is a bit off, and I really, really need new rotors (my fault there) but it's my favorite car so far.  That thing that was rattling loudly fell off at some point and so now it's relatively quiet.  Trouble with buying salvaged cars should be obvious.

Finding a low-mileage WRX is hard.

It's easier at a Subaru dealer.  ;)

That much is certain.

Didn't see any answers to this:  I joined a local credit union and use their fleet buying service.  They provide this as a service to CU members, and generally you can get anything made for less than $500 over wholesale dealer price (the fleet service combines 20+ member vehicle orders into one so they can negotiate a fixed margin with the dealer).  You don't even have to step foot on a lot until it's time to pick it up, so you don't even have to run the gauntlet of asshole salespeople until it's too late for them to do anything about it. :grin:

Where can I find "wholesale dealer price" figures?

I think he means "Dealer Invoice" which you can find at edmonds etc.

That is really the only "consistent" number you are going to find, the actual price any given dealership pays varies widely because it is based on volumes and all kinds of incentive packages from the auto-makers to the dealers.

1) Decide on the car you want based on need and affordability.

2) Decide on features that are must have or must not have.

3) Email the internet salesman at dealers around telling them what specifically you want and asking for a price.  They might not all respond but some will. The more direct you are about when you will buy the better.  Buying in the last week of a month is best since the dealer has to pay insurance for each car on its lot every month.

4) Take the lowest email bid you get and try and get another 5% knocked off in person.

You should have a decent - if not the best - price after that.

It also pays to know that extra features like leather upholstery can be added by the dealer.  My wife got us leather on a new Sienna for free.  The dealer just zipped it on over the factory upholstery.  So we bought the cheaper model but got leather.  I had no idea this was even possible and I have bought 5 cars in my life.

Also, trading in is almost always better than trying to sell your old car yourself, even if the trade in value is lower because you save the sales tax.

For example, assume a sales tax of 6%.

You want to buy a $20,000 car so tax would be $1,200.

You think you can sell you old car for $4,000 but the dealer only offers you $3,800.   If you take the $3,800, your sales tax bill will be lower by $228 (3800 x 6%) so you effectively sold your care for $4,028.

Autotrader (http://www.autotrader.com/) is a decent place to look for used and even new cars/trucks.  I got a decent deal on my current ride there.  Many times the Autotrader price is less than the sticker price on the lot for used stuff. 

According to autotrader, my truck was a really good investment!

High resale values?

I agree with this. I used a broker who got me a great deal, but I originally used USAA's car buying service which gives you pricing for 3 local dealers at their discount rate (all on their website). It was really useful to try pricing out several different vehicles to see which ones I could get the lowest below MSRP. (In November 2010, I found several models of brand new 2010s 15-20% below MSRP through USAA).

Cheapest one on there is going for more than I owe. Most have about 40-60k more miles and are $4-5k more. I don't have any after-market parts, but it's loaded and I haven't hit 15k miles after 2.5 years (should hit it this weekend, actually). I did get a pretty good deal on it, though.

I guess there's another lesson for the hive mind: look into the values of older models of the vehicle you're considering; as well as reliability. I had a pretty good idea that the FJ would hold value, being quirky and niche; but I'm glad reliability has borne out, given I bought the second year of production.

I'm looking at a bunch of 2008 Lexus ES 350's that have between 30-40k miles on them. They fall into the $21-23k range when I do some research. Does anybody have any Lexus experience they would like to share at this time?

All I know is that they have among the highest resale value among mid size luxury vehicles.  That seems like a good thing. 

I'd be interested in upkeep costs.  Many of the luxury brands are expensive as hell to maintain due to part cost premiums and finding a mechanic qualified to keep them under warranty.   

Lexus is an expensive toyota. Interior and exterior parts spendy, mechanical, not so much

I am aware of the Toyota part. I'm not so worried about it breaking down on me or the horsepower part of it as much as the creature comfort and general upkeep part.

The creature comforts are nice, but like all luxury cars they don't last indefinitely.  Some last a decent while (10-15+ years) while occasionally nuisance things like the lit needle gauges or the completely electronically controlled AC doors and diverters start to die or behave weirdly after a few years.  Those are usually the most annoying thing since they aren't by nature trivially easy to work on nor are the parts cheap to replace (assuming a good shop knows what is wrong and isn't just throwing parts at it hoping it goes away).

For whatever it's worth, I just bought an '11 Ford F-150 Supercrew 4x4 with the ecoboost twin turbo V6.  It's advertised to get 22 mpg on the highway, but I averaged nearly 24 mpg on a 700 mile round trip.  Not too shabby for a 4x4 in the 6000lb range that can tow nearly 12,000 lbs.  Expect it to get better as I get more miles on it.  Not 30mpg, but certainly 25-26mpg shouldn't be out of the question.  Probably more expensive than what you're looking to spend, though.  

Paelos - the wife's aunt has a late model ES350.  She loves it, and has put a ton of miles on it.  It's not quite "just a more expensive Toyota", as there's some pretty big differences in the drive train and other running gear.  I've driven it a handful of times and can tell you it's pretty much the best riding car I've ever been in...Bank vault quiet on the inside - so much so it's almost unnerving.  Personally, if I were in the market for something like that, I would go for one of the IS or GS models simply because they're RWD.  I *still* really dislike FWD cars.

Maintaining luxury car isn't trivial expense, especially if you have low tolerance for some of the comforts Not Working. One of my daily drivers is 25 year old German land yacht. Gas mileage isn't terrible ether, I get about 22mpg highway but I get to drive a comfy ride with ridiculous amount of power. Over last 10 years I easily spent over 30,000 just keeping it on the road. Years 8-12 were by far the worst, and now I am starting to see some of the things I fixed back then come back again. Trick to owning older luxury cars is to know (you have to be mechanically inclined) when something about to fail and fix it before it causes more damage. Plus do all the small stuff yourself.

To add more to above - you actually need to know a bit about automotive mechanics to drive _any_ luxury car out of warranty. About the worst financial mistake you can do is to take out-of-warranty luxury car back to a dealership for _any_ reason that is not a recall. They are _trained_ by dealership on how to rip you off.

Can't believe SUVs are still going for as much as they are, even early-2000s ones with miles on them.  :oh_i_see:

Americanz dun' be very smrt.

Bought a 2008 Honda Fit on Thursday. Love it so far, sips gas. It's amazing that it's so small from the outside but feels huge on the inside. With the way the rear seats fold around I can fit anything in there.

Thinking about getting the windows tinted but I'm afraid to from seeing all the crappy bubbly tints on everyone's cars here.

You should put a spoiler, some ground effects and spinners on that shit yo.

I just bought a Ford F150 gas guzzler.   :grin:

After moving a couple tons of soil I'm missing my pickup.

The only type of tint that wouldn't bubble or turn purple involves baking glass with chemical additives. Generally if it isn't from factory, it will go bad in only couple years.

An update from the OP, I ended up going with the 2011 Hyundai Tucson GLS AWD.  After taxes (go go no provincial sales tax in Alberta) and fees, they wanted over $32,000.  I managed to get them down to an even $30,000.  With my trade in (got what I was looking for there too) and a small cash down payment shaved another $5k off and my payments are being done bi-weekly with 0% interest over 6 years.  Overall I'm pretty happy so far.  Its the perfect size for me (Sante Fe was a little too big), the 4 cylinder engine has some surprising power, its nice to drive, looks good inside and out (vastly different appearance from earlier models) and the radio controls on the steering wheel is great.  I even was able to make use of the heated seats a few times. :heart:  If you're looking for a smaller SUV type vehicle, I'd recommend giving the 2011 Tucson some consideration.

I've gotten the windows on all my vehicles I have ever owned tinted and not ever gotten a single bubble. The last car I had, I had for 7 years.

In my area it really depends on the quality of the work. Some "discount" dudes here, stuff falls apart in about year and a half. One guy in town that you have to arrange a meet to look at the car first though, I've never seen his stuff bubble. Our climates pretty mild though.

100F weather for 6 months of the year. The only tint I see here is factory or bubbling/peeling kind.

Good ol' LA.

Unless you're lucky enough to have covered parking where you work, you can count on your dash warping, your tint bubbling, and the steering wheel / gear shifter leaving burn marks on your hands like that nazi dude in the first Indiana Jones movie.  And that's using a window screen.

Weigh that against having your roads over-salted and eating away your car from underneath. I understand some salt in the proper conditions, but our roads are white in the spring. I THINK YOU GOT IT, DPW.

I live in San Antonio and have had aftermarket tint on 3 cars and they've all done fine.  It's like anything else, I think, in that you generally get what you pay for. 

Have you been going to the same place for all 3 in SA? I'd take a recommendation from someone that's had tinting done here in Austin, as well.

Look at it from the bright side: at least it makes deer hunting easy. :why_so_serious:

No.  My father in law got his done about 2 years ago at Mother's window tint and it has been good.  Many dealerships will have an aftermarket person/group they can recommend as well or they may have people that can do it in house.

So I have a question, and I didn't feel like creating a brand new thread for it.

I have a 2010 Ford Fusion I bought new and have taken good care of it (regular and on time oil changes).  I am considering whether it's worth buying an extended warranty (official one from Ford, not the scam ones).  Usually I am against extended warranties as they are scams in Best Buy and the like, but I'm wondering if it's worth it for a car I plan on keeping for a long, long time.

Right now my car comes with a 3 year, 36k mile bumper to bumper warranty.  A 6 year, 75k mile complete extended warranty (I drive about 13k miles a year) will cost $2285. 

Have people found extended car warranties worth it or not really?

With the truck I had, I got an extended warranty, and it ended up being a waste of money.  Things didn't start breaking down on it until the extended warranty had expired. 

$2285  will cover a ton of problems on a Ford Fusion.  That seems insane.  Have you had any issues with the car?  I have found that a car will hint early about its long term condition.  Assuming your car is now only 2 years old and you haven't needed any non-standard service, I would think that price is nuts. 

Do you have to get your car inspected before you buy the warranty?  How does that work?  What prevents you from buying the warranty at the first sign of trouble?

Nope, the only problem I have had is my Stereo's amplifier is bad and needs to be replaced (awaiting the part now) but other then that the only thing that's needed to be done is oil changes (which is good considering someone hit it while it was parked 2 days after purchasing and did $7500 worth of damage to the rear side of it).

I guess that's true, that $2.2k can cover a lot of damage if the need arises.

I think an extended warranty is worth it. Around year 5 random things will start to break .. Of course, you may get lucky and never experience a problem - but if you were, wouldn't it be nice to know you don't have to drop 5k into the car to keep it running another 5 years?

I think that you need to find another repair shop if those are the price quotes you're getting.

Heh I just took that out of my post - I realized I was quoting prices for sets not singles.

If you are going to drop that on a warranty, you might want to just stick that into a saving account and bust it out when you need it. Not a whole lot of repairs that would cost that much at a sitting, especially if you know a guy...

Consumer Reports severely downgraded new Honda Civic. Surprising.

One of the things to be wary of with extended warranties is that they are often structured to be for a set period of time.  Usually 24-36 months.  What is often obfuscated by the contractual jargon is that the coverage period usually starts from when you get the contract, not from the lapse of manufacturers warranty.  I.e. you will have a period of overlapping coverage not a period of extended coverage.

Read the contract carefully and remember that you are NOT dealing with the manufacturer in most cases when negotiating an extended warranty.  It's usually some third party insurance firm.

Just an extension of the trend from the previous year, looks like the new models in our new economy are mostly the previous models with many corners cut.  Consumer reports downgraded a few models the previous year as well (the Odysey being 1 IIRC). 

Personally I think Honda is slipping quite a bit across the board, after my car shopping/buying experience from 3 months ago I would say that over all the fit and finish on Toyota's seemed much better than what Honda had to offer (I've always been a bit of a Honda admirer as well).  I realize there are a ton of Honda Fit fans out there but the interior felt pretty bottom of the barrel to me and maybe I'm just used to bigger cars but it was pretty gutless during the test drive.  I realize it isn't a luxury car but I think for similar money I'd rather roll the dice on a Psion, Corolla or Hyundai Elantra.

Maybe it is all in my head and I'm just sour because the Honda dealer I went to pissed me off beyond belief.

They're doing the same thing that VW is doing for their US-market Jetta and Passat and decontenting them somewhat to become more price competitive with the likes of Kia and Hyundai, who have really stepped their game as of late - the Elantra is probably the best small car available in America right now.  The basic plan is to just make it bigger, skimp on things like interior materials and stuff people don't see (remember when the Civic had a proper independent rear suspension?) where possible and make sure there's a headline grabbing stripper model 'Starting at...'  Hell - they've been doing it with the Accord for years - they sell the Euro Accord here as an Acura.

While most enthusiast publications/blogs (and even CR) have expressed their disappointment with these new downgraded versions, I don't think the average American car buyer cares - most people just want something fairly inexpensive, roomy, boring and reliable anyway.

I personally test drove many pre-"facelift" Honda and Acura cars and could not see much difference between upper trim Hondas and any Acuras. Personally I felt Acuras interface was too cluttered with unnecessary buttons, as if designers had to ask themselves "what rarely-used feature can we add to differentiate from Honda"? I see "cheapening" as justified to bring it more in line with the brand, but it isn't accompanied by equivalent price drop. In my mind there is no doubt that Civic (and Accord to a degree) over 1997-2010 era became too luxurious and well engineered, to the point that aftermarket performance parts weren't doing much for them. Now, I think Honda went wrong way about cutting costs - eliminating independent suspension will piss off enthusiasts (one of core markets) and cheapening interior well make upper trims a dud (who would buy anything but a base model?).

It would be interesting to see if kids still rice Civics in a couple years or switch to something else.

Edit: Out of curiosity I went to look up 2012 Civic and website still states Multi-Link Rear Suspension for all trims and models (both Si and DX), now they don't explicitly state "independent" but I think its implied.

It's the Euro model that has the torsion beam rear suspension.

Woops - looks like I mixed them up.  :P

With a 75% chance that the Saturn's going to the auto graveyard I'm faced with finding a new ride.  First instinct will, as usual, be to find a pre-leased in great shape and run with whatever I can get that I enjoy driving and has the closest amount of features.

However.. I can get a decent deal through USAA on a 2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid.  It's tempting since I know gas is my greatest expense after mortgage & student loans.  Anyone have any info or anecdotes on these other than what I can find on the usual car sites?

I have a non-hybrid 2010 Fusion and I love it.  The Microsoft Sync system is fan-fucking0tastic, especially if you have a decent smartphone.  I know with the hybrid version you don't have as much trunk space so if you do a lot of travelling you should make sure you have enough for a suitcase (I don't remember how big they said the battery was).  Also, 2 people at the ford dealership told me it's still not worth paying extra for a hybrid unless you do an extreme amount of city driving so I would definitely look at that (though who knows how high gas prices will be in 3 years).

In the last 1.5 years I've only had to have standard oil changes done, one minor recall fix (so minor they just waited till my next oil change to do it), and the ampliphier in my stereo blew not too long ago (which they fixed under warranty).  Other then that I've had no issues, although my back side was heavily rebuilt after my car was hit 2 days after purchasing it ($7500 worth of repairs).

If you're looking for good gas mileage in a nice car a non-hybrid Corolla is a really good value.  You're almost always going to be better off going for a non-hybrid with higher gas mileage because hybrids are so expensive and the maintenance on my father-in-law's Civic hybrid is expensive.  You might examine the Auto Trader website for a 2-3 year old used car.  That will be the overall best value you can get. 

For gas mileage, I'm seeing fantastic reviews for the new Hyundai Accent which gets 40mpg. It's a completely new car--the old one wasn't much to speak of. It's far larger and supposed to be quite nice.

The trouble with Asian cars is they always fail to have the features I want.  If I wanted such a bare-bones approach I'd just buy one of the cheapest and lowest-mileage used vehicles I could find.   I really enjoy having a multi-disk CD & sunroof and I haven't seen those on most of the "good, cheap" cars from those manufacturers.  Hell, I don't think any of them actually do sunroofs now that I think of it.

Plus the only way of getting a non-hatchback accent is to get the base vehicle.  :oh_i_see: 

New Camry hybrid coming in October is supposed to get 41mpg, is not a hatchback and the sunroof comes in an upgrade package, upgraded stereo has multi-disk CD and usb or bluetooth iphone/ipod/driod/music player of your choice integration.  You would think it would perform at least as well as the current model Camry hybrid and drive more like a V6 than a hybrid.

Step up one notch to the Elantra (http://www.hyundaiusa.com/build-your-hyundai/?vehicle=elantra&year=2012) then.  The Limited ($21K) includes leather, sunroof and other goodies (heated rear seats in a compact?) and tops out at $23K with the tech package (adds nav, bluetooth, pushbutton start, rearview camera, etc.)

Still gets 40MPG highway according to EPA, though what I've read seems to indicate that your mileage will definitely vary.

You may have a hard time finding one - I was at the dealership (a fairly high-volume outfit) last week for scheduled maintenance, and they had a grand total of one Elantra in stock.

New model year is right-out, unfortunately.  If they total my vehicle once the final estimate is in, I'll have 7 days of rental coverage then I'm on my own.  Living in the city I do with it's passionate hatred of all things even remotely public transport and being that I'm opposite end of the city of all the Ohio people I work with, going a month or two without a car won't cut it.  :heartbreak:

I'll take a look at the Elantra when I get home, thanks MN.  Last I looked you couldn't find those features short of the top-end vehicles but apparently that's changed in the last few years.  (Or I just sucked at navigating their websites in 2005)

If you need features I can't imagine that the Ford Focus wouldn't be perfect.  The Sync system is great on my truck.  I would still stay away from Hybrids.

Wtf, who uses CDs these days?

*edit* Bluetooth and USB ports are where it's at.

*rasies hand*

Don't judge me!

Bluetooth & USB require both devices. I'm the luddite without a phone, recall.  My most techhy device is my ipod.

You can take my physical media when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

You, on the other hand.  Well the publishers will take your digital whenever they damn well feel like it.  :grin:

I ended up with a Hyundai Sonata a few months ago, and from what they told me, bluetooth/usb is standard on all their vehicles now.  It also came with an iPod specific cable so that it all runs through the car stereo.  Like the Elantra, the Limiteds come with all the stuff like a sunroof and cd changer.  I've been getting higher than advertised mileage on it as well.  You may be able to find a deal on the 2011s as they make room for the new model year which hits in a few months. 

You don't need a device for USB, you just need to buy a USB flash stick, load music on it, plug it in and forget about it.

Our Fit plays data CDs with MP3s or WMPs, don't most do this? We still use the physical media, but each disk is a band's entire catalog rather than 1 album. Most of the time I listen to stuff on the MP3 player--it has an input jack, not a USB which is actually more useful as I can play anything from Rhapsody to go.

I like my 6 CD changer, I use a mix of regular CDs and mp3 CDs. For trips we use the iPod through an 1/8" jack. Would be nice to also have a USB port, or even iPod controls on the wheel. Got spoiler very quickly having CD controls on the wheel.

Most support MP3/WMP cds, but I never found it holds enough.  I like to store gigs of music on a single device to keep having to swap out music as minimal as possible.  Putting it all on a USB stick and just keeping it plugged in (and interfacing it through the regular dashboard music controls) is a much better solution in my eyes than having multiple cds with mp3s on it, imho

Multiple CDs.. ha.

No, no.  6 CDs. As in the pre-burned albums.  I don't need 500 hours of music in the car. 6 is more than enough time & variety to get me through anything but a roadtrip, at which time the speakers are hooked-in to the DVD player anyway.

I still purchase 99% of my music on CD, I then immediately rip it to mp3 and file the CD away as a backup/proof of purchase.

Yes I like all comment !!

Well, we all appreciate your like of all comment!!

I do the same as Salamak - buy my music on CD, rip it to the computer and then store the physical media away.  I've had several friends do the first two steps but then they sell their CDs off for extra cash or something, and all I can think of is "what if your digital copies go bye-bye?"

Granted though, I'm not a huge purchaser of music in general, at least not any more.

If you're at all concerned with safety stay the fuck away from hybrids.  When you slam into something solid they don't stall nicely like gasoline or ethanol vehicles do, and that complicates extrication efforts.

Just general info for anyone looking to buy a new car.

Just put a set of head gaskets on a 2006 Subaru Legacy. Appears they have still not fixed their head gasket design problems they've had for 15 years now. At least they sell nifty Subaru branded "coolant conditioner" (stop leak) now.

Just put an engine in a 2006 Hyundai Sonata. This one was customers fault entirely as she let it run low on oil. The variable valve train models  of engine are extremely sensitive to low oil but as I poked around the net I found that this particular engine is ridiculously so. People have reported problems letting it run even a quart low for any amount of time. Whee.

Info only. Don't take it to mean every one will fail, but especially with the Subaru, well over half will long before they should.

Based on your technical expertise, what would you consider to be the more robust engine and drivetrain systems on the market?  My mechanic friends used to be really fond of saabs and volvos for their design durability, but that may have changed over the last decade. 

If that did change, I think it was right about the time that Saabs and Volvos became Chevys and Fords, respectively.   :grin:

My 2008 Fit does not do MP3 cd's nor does it have the input jack. It was only on the Sport model that year, don't know about now.

I know for the Prius I had to go up to Extras Package Number Two or something to get the aux media input jack, it is probably the same with most cars these days.

Volvos are still excellent in my mind. Really I can't answer this without knowing what it would be you're looking for in what price range as I deal with all makes and models and my bitch list would be fucking huge. Kias and hyundais are still throwaway to me although the quality has come up a great deal

I want a Ford Flex.  (Not that I'm getting a car anytime soon).  It looks like it has all the room I would ever need, and (I can't believe I'm saying this about Ford) I like the way it looks.

Waiting to see what sort of engine things come up with it though.

Loving my new Ford Fiesta so far. I'd been a GM guy for most of my life, but I just didn't like what they had to offer in that class.
She gets close to 31 MPG in my mostly city commute, is plenty roomy for a small guy like me, and the Sync system is cool.

Looking at new cars made me realize just how badly companies get to exagerate fuel economy. Just doing a quick check, my car has a listed MPG of 33 city / 44 highway. Looking at the "real world" reports puts it more like 28-29 city, which is far more in line with my results.

Either way, it's cut my gas consumption by about a tank a month, so I'm happy.

Wee so today driving my 1.5 year old Ford Fusion to work my acceleration randomly stopped working while I was driving.  I pulled to the side and turned the car off, then back on and everything was fine.  Took it to the dealership and apparently my throttle base assembly was bad and needed to be replaced.

So in 1.5 years I've had my throttle base assembly replaced and stereo amplifier.  As this is my first new car I don't know if that's good or not.

New hardware fails sometimes.  Infant mortality and whatnot.  The more little sensors and solenoids that get put on cars, the more likely there will be a handful fail in the life of the car.  I wouldn't consider what you experienced "bad" or an indication of poor quality by any stretch, but I can see being annoyed.

My 08 Pontiac G6 is rated at 17 city which is accurate and I get 30 highway with 2 kids, wife and luggage which is above the rated 26 so I happy. Plus I love this car.

I just scored an '07 (technically an '06) Audi A6 3.2 quattro Prestige pkg (fully loaded plus dynamic airbag susp.) for about $21k, with 60k miles on it.  This car was over $60k new and 'car of the year' at the time. And it looks like it still is (you really cant tell the difference).  Evidently the prior owner was a careful, rich milf who only serviced the car right at the Audi dealer where I bought it.  She traded it in on a soccer mom audi suv.  If it werent for the fact it was an '06 it would've been fully certified and then probably $29k+.

I walked in there with no intention to really buy, but once I sat in this thing I had to have it (it's essentially got A8 amenities in an A6).  Took all afternoon to work the financing but the dealership really took care of me.  I am EXTREMELY happy; definitely recommend buying in Maryland at 'MileOne' if you can.  Thing even came with all-weather mats ($500+), 2 brand new wheels, and a full set of new tires.  (about $2000 in extras).  And it's mint.  Stealth-pimping for real in this thing, kinda sad... no one thinks the car is even mine.

Anyways, I'm an Audi guy (this is my 2nd A6), but also a tinkerer and fairly DIY so I can handle the service frustrations when they arise.  It's well worth the headaches for being in a car you dont mind having valeted downtown.   mpg?  pfft.  at best maybe 29 highway trimmed out and 18 city, but who gives an ish.  VERY difficult finding an A6 with these amenities, especially the A8 suspension. (I HATE the s-line series; overrated)

Were there better deals out there??  Heck yah.  I can find you a near mint A8 same model year in similar condition for around the same money.  BUT, those A8's are veritable tanks - more of an executive ride and not great for daily driving unless your business requires it.  Another caveat being the 4.2 v-8 is much more bang for the buck and takes a huge beating mileage-wise.  (dont be afraid of 100k+ miles)   The new A8 is a $90k car.  :/

The Flex is my minivan compromise car. It's the only thing I've seen in that size that looks even vaguely cool. Now I just need to wait for them to show up in used car lots!

Nice car - Dealer retail is about $25-26K so a pretty good deal to boot.  :)

I am disappointed in the selection of AWD/4X4 diesel vehicles available in the US - either huge SUV, huge truck, or a Merc? blah

Toureg?

We hate diesels for some reason...we hate manual transmissions too...

The last small diesel was the automatic transmission Jeep Liberty.

There has been rumors of small diesel engines coming out, but nothing has materialized.  In theory a diesel hybrid would be the best mpg vehicle (more energy in a gallon of diesel than a gallon of gasoline).

We hate diesels because up until recently they were loud, clackety, and smelled bad.  Not to mention not every gas station sold diesel.  They still have a pretty decent odor to them, but not as bad as it used to be.  The Euro diesel refining process (far better than ours) has a lot to do with that.  Besides, since the price of diesel has caught up with gas, there's no real reason to go diesel unless you're pulling heavy loads consistently.  You can argue a diesel engine's longevity is better and while that is true, the rest of the car will fall apart at the same rate as the gas engine twin.

GM fucked us with their Olds 350 diesel disaster.  The car-based diesel business died a premature death in the US due to that abortion.  Stations not selling diesel is also an inconvenience, but if more diesels were around more stations would sell it, so it would fix itself.

I seem to remember my dad and grandfather plugging in engine block heaters on their diesels, too. Have they gotten around that. Seems to be an issue with using one as a biodiesel conversion, iirc.

I had a 2010 Mercedes ML320 Bluetech for awhile, no problems starting up in the cold. It does have glow plugs, but the car handles that at startup automagically if needed. It may even have heating elements to keep fuel warm, it has a monster battery that almost always seems to have a charge pulling off it.

Yes diesel isn't cheaper than gas, but the Bluetech got 35+ MPG on the highway, while the gasoline version got 23-ish MPG highway. It also had monster torque, even if the turbo lag was a bit annoying.


Bit too big, looking for something smaller for commuting 40+ miles a day. If the Liberty's were still available in diesel, that might be an option. Or, heck, even an Audi A3 (if only they were in AWD!) would be an answer commuter.

Nope, just the way it is.  The diesel cycle needs heat to start, but once it starts it's a self-perpetuating cycle.  The fuel itself starts to gel below 35°F, bio diesel is worse due to the impurities (most diesel engines have fuel heaters too).  You can still run a diesel in sub-zero temperatures if you run the block heater to get the diesel cycle started without too much issue.  One of the diesel boards I hang out on is 70% Canadian, so I know they work there ;-)

Last time I checked it's not possible to buy a new vehicle in Canada without factory installed block heaters, gas or diesel.

A gallon of regular gasoline = 125,000 BTU/US gallon

A gallon of diesel =  138,700 BTU/US gallon (another source gave it as high as 147,000 BTU/U.S. gallon)

If I remember, it is like 10 gallons of diesel fuel and 19 gallons of gasoline is made from refining a barrel of crude (I think 44 gallons in a barrel).  We could redo production to produce more diesel eventually, but no one wants to commit to diesel everything.  I'm beginning to think it is more of the ethanol and ethanol/gasoline blends that want to keep out the diesel.  Hmmm we could blame NASCAR since everyone wants the go fast and use stock car crap or INDY car with the ETOH they use, or top fuel drag racers...even though diesel helped build all of those tracks and events...

Ethanol is the worst crap that ever crapped up the crap. Whoever in the corn lobby dreamed up that horse shit ought to be summarily shot in the center of town for all to see and left to rot as a warning to other cock mongers.

http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza-wrx/index.html

You obviously missed the "diesel" part.

Yeah, otherwise there'd be an FJ all up in here.

It would be a DJ not an FJ :) FJ's were the designations for the gasoline F engine and DJ for there diesel engines (both the 4 and 6 cylinder they made), unfortunately, very few were imported in to the USA (from facts of imports they went to mining companies), Canada had more imported and would be more available.   Either way, it would be a 1970's FJ or DJ that would be cool if restored.  Something like that just screams money pit!

Another great diesel was the 1980 International Scout II, had a turbo 300 Nissan engine, guys who own one swear they get 20 city and 30 highway, and that is with beefy axle, engine, transmission, and transfer case.  Of course IH stopped there light truck line the next year in 1981...

Jeep put a Perkins diesel engine in back in the 1960's, it was rather unsupported and being from England (the motor), spare parts were a bear to get.

Nissan never brought what some consider a great 4x4, the diesel powered Patrol (hell they never brought the Nissan Patrol here period).

I would think your cheapest and decent support route would be finding a 1982 to 1991 diesel powered Chevy Blazer, especially the CCUV that are being sold surplus.  You can pick one up for about 2k to 5k depending on the shape and your haggle ability.  Then if you want to get a manual transmission it won't be a bad swap as all the parts are available, plus there are tons of parts for the chevy 6.2 diesel and turbo diesel, from what I drove in the military and the guys who own them, it isn't the crappy "Olds 350" that sucked ass.

I drive a Detroit Diesel 6.2.  It's a great engine and economic: I get 19MPG around town in mine and know several guys getting into the 25-26MPG range.  The Detroit Diesel 6.5 with a turbo is also popular, same with putting the turbo on the earlier 6.2 (since both are essentially the same engine).  GM did their trucks right.

I did.  Screw Diesel. 

Pfft!
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqcur-oF0WRbDaV59eImUbj10-lAlOLE8ohUxV2gQoMcqZ2Y1O)

I was thinking of this thread today when I got behind a diesel truck and got to enjoy the stench of the exhaust.

Can they not afford to paint the roof?

You need to get your Landcruisers right.... BJ40 was the diesel model number.  I passed up on a FJ45V and am still kicking myself. (Four door long wheel base). My son loves driving in our 1979 FJ40, I can't bring myself to get rid of it for the 2 days of snow we get a year.

I was also going to ask who he had come pull him off the snowbank and what kinda truck they drove ..

Wow, talk about being d and b confused, besides the DJ was the postal or "dispatch" jeep that was right hand drive with optional 4wheel drive...which never came in a diesel as far as I can tell.

Anyone had a Mini Cooper convertible?  I'm thinking of going the car route again, and they look fun.

I drove one when looking at a GTI.  Give one a test ride.  They are incredibly fun to drive, but the lack of cargo space made it impractical for me.  The GTI was similar in both pep and handling and I could fold down the rear seat for lots of storage room.  

I did the same as Nebu.  I felt the GTI was more practical without sacrificing the fun and it even costs less once you have it nicely equipped.

This post also marks my 1 year of ownership anniversary and I still love my GTI.

7 years and 80k miles on my GTI and it still turns heads.  I love my GTI.  Never had a single problem with the car, just changed oil and tires as needed. 

I've heard the convertible has horrible sight line issues.  I've always wanted to get a Cooper S, but I need more room now with a kid in tow.

I really haven't liked a single Volkswagen I've ever test driven.  We look at them every time, and every time I come away feeling "that didn't feel right".

Minis are in a really strange spot, they get extremely high marks for customer satisfaction despite getting very low ratings for reliability, at least last time I looked at a Consumer Reports report.

Probably because they are really fun to drive.  An ex of mine had one and the front seat was perfect, the back seat was really better off as the trunk and the way-back could hold a few groceries but not much else.  If you want a commuter car that's fun and small to drive, it's hard to go wrong with.  What I've found is that while the reliability isn't *awful* there are a few wear-out items that, being sourced from BMW parts, are not cheap or easy to fix.  They have improved the design in the later years though, so it's not as bad as it once was (parts are still pricey though).

Don't put too much stock into, "Satisfaction" surveys.  Some people feel satisfied just because they spent a lot of money or got the green color they wanted.

Similarly, some reliability ratings are often heavily influenced by stupid people.  For example if you read a newegg review of a graphics card you will notice that there will be the occasional review for an otherwise highly rated part that says something like, "Box arrived damaged and 1 day later than expected otherwise card works fine. 1 Star" which has nothing to do with the part they are reviewing or even Newegg but is actually a review of FedEx/UPS/Etc.  Reliability ratings are largely accumulated in the same way, self-reporting 'issues' by owners.  I don't know of one that is entirely based on objective metrics.

So with the upcoming arrival of the baby we are looking at getting a second car for the wife.
Priorities are:
1. Gas mileage, will be used extensively in town.
2. Luggage racks
3. Possibility to tow light weight travel trailer.

Was looking at Subaru Forester and Outback of course.
But was also looking at the Volvo XC70 or maybe the Audi A4 avant.

Anyone got experience with any of these?

I own a Forester.  Are you looking for a New or Used car?

Either.

Subaru's are great, but you have to expect to do the head gaskets at around 120k miles. My son and  I did them in my garage, and it took about 12 hours.  That being said, if you have snow they can't be beat.

I dont 'do' cars. Clueless when it comes to that sort of stuff, much prefer just dropping it at the mechanic's shop.

I like our Highlander - it's big enough for car seats and has enough room in the back for a stroller + bags. We have a roof rack for skis. Doesn't handle as well as our Outback in the snow, but handles just fine. Drives like a car, which my wife likes and is pretty easy to park. Can get a Hybrid model if you care that much about gas, currently get about 19mpg in town.

Our Outback is good too, though it would be crammed with a car seat. (Granted, ours is a 2005, I think the newest ones have a little bit more room for the back seat). I'm bummed they got rid of the turbo Outback, but I hear the 3.6R isn't too bad. It does have good "trunk" space and racks.

How does the outback do for gas mileage for you? I know what the websites say but what has your experience been?

We had thought of a Highlander as well but already own a 4runner. We wanted something a little lower and a little more carish. Those Volvo xc70's are really grabbing my eyes.

Got a customer with the xc70 that loves it. Seems a pretty solid car to me. Rides a helluva lot more comfy than a subaru too.

The Highlander has much less of a truck "feel" than a 4runner, so you might take one for a spin just to see. They are lower and easier to get into, and I think it drives very much like my Outback and does not seem to be any bigger even though it is a bit.

My Outback is an XT turbo, so the gas mileage is about 18 in town and 22 on my commute. The 3.6Rs or the 2.5i (non-turbos) would get better than that, but be a lot less fun to drive.  8-)
I hear 25mpg+ commuting in a 3.6R from friends who have one, but I do not have any experience with those models myself.

And arent you a mechanic or something Walrus? Is it expensive to maintain?

And yes I am and it depends on what you mean by maintenance. it will cost no more or less to do regular maintenance on than any other vehicle of its class. Or I should say, it shouldn't. For some reason, euro car lovers are extremely fucking weird people who feel their car needs to be serviced only by the dealer because it's "special" and that paying 150 an hour labor is normal. Reality is that it's just a fucking oil change. Use quality parts and a competent guy and you'll be fine.

That said, if you do buy, enjoy. They're a pretty ride and damn comfy. (Additionally, I've heard that the engine is ridiculously powerful too. Not that I've tested it.  :grin:)

The Mitsubishi Outback is supposed to be a vaguely car-ish SUV in terms of handling.

That's the tough part.

Bought an '08 Altima yesterday as a final close-out to my vehicle drama.  When I did the salvage title on Friday so I could get the insurance payout, I'd not known that you can't drive it after that until it's repaird. (D'oh.)  So I went and rented a car.  They gave me a '12 Altima and I liked driving it so much I decided to get a new car.

Went to Toyota and didn't see anything I liked, then Hyundai and they were closing in 15 mins. (Really? 6pm on a Saturday? Really?)  Got a quick test drive on the Elantra - which was the only thing they had in my "$350 or less a month" price range - and didn't like it.  Wife suggested just going into the Nissan dealership since I was enjoying the Altima so much anyway.  They had an '08 with everything I wanted in the color I wanted for $19899, and dropped $1k off the price for me so I was sold.

Plan is to repair the Saturn eventually (as I just blew the $3k the insurance is giving me on the down payment) and give it to the daughter since she'll be driving soon.

Pics for the interested:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2200218578306.117429.1632567670&l=6da6b88789&type=1

Beautiful car and only 36k miles (if I saw that correctly).  Congrats! 

I really like the look of the Altima as a sporty sedan.  I think you'll really enjoy the car. 

Nice car Merusk.  We bought a Nissan Juke Tekna on Friday, first time I have ever bought brand new.

Nissan Juke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMmpuQ2P258)

White like this one, only with grey inside instead of red.  Love the intelligent key that you don't even have to take out of your pocket and the camera for reversing is great.

My ex-wife has one of those (hers is a 2006).  Very nice cars and dependable.  450 miles may be a bit much on the tank range, but don't be surprised if you get 350-375+

Thanks, all.  I'm enjoying it immensely so far.  I still enjoy the Saturn and will miss it greatly but it was nice to find a car that just felt right when I drove it.  I'd tried a few others via family & recent rentals in addition to the test drives and nothing "clicked."  My instant love for the rental plus finding this car at the dealership was just one of those, "ok, guess this is how it's going to be, universe," moments.

Yah I figured 450 will be a miracle but anything north of 350 will be awesome.

I think it's a 20-gallon tank in hers and she lets it get RIGHT down to the empty line and gets around 19-22MPG.  She has the 4-cylinder version (which drives like a 6 honestly, it's plenty quick).

Was that ($18,899) the final sales price? Tax, tag, title, and interest on the loan? 

If not, but I hate to tell, you paid about 4K too much.  According to kbb.com, trade-in value (assuming it's a 2.5S with automatic) is about 13,500.  You can bet the dealer paid about that, give or take 500 bucks either way.  If it's a higher end model or that price was tax/tag/title/interest, the ignore what I said. 

First step to dealer negotiation on a used car is to find the 'round about trade in value and offer 5-10 percent above that.  If they don't bite, walk.  I've bought and sold enough cars to have buying from a dealer down to a science.

Final price with everything, yes, including the "never get it" extended new-car warranty.  I only drive about 12k miles a year, and the warranty lasts to 100k miles or 2015, whichever comes first.  It's a certified pre-owned so the warranty might have been a waste, but I've had to pay to replace water pumps etc before and this covers them so overall as long as I get one repair covered it will have been worth it.

Going to KBB says I should have paid $18,975 for the car alone, once I added-in the features.  :grin:

I keep telling my wife if she runs it that low all the time she's gonna burn up the fuel pump and I will not pay for another one. It falls on deaf ears.

That KBB site says my FJ trade-in is $24.5k, I owe about $15k on it. The cheapest one within 75 miles is an 07 with 77k miles on it, going for over $20k.

Mine's an 08 with 17k miles on it :)

I'll give you $16k for it.

I love seeing these funky little things zipping around - they look like angry frogs.

Also, congrats on the new car, Merusk.  :)

Oh believe me I've had that lecture 2-3 times.  I told her it's an in-tank pump, costs ~$300 for the pump and another $200 for the labor to install it.  She's an ex for a reason.

I bought a new ride the other day, but it's hardly worth bragging about ;-)

Oh man, that takes me back.  You planning to fix it up and make it fast?

Just be careful, Selby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tirGyJDSivI

He's got a long way to go, and a short time to get there.

Verah nice, Selby.

When's Sally Field coming over?  :drill:

It doesn't need much to be fixed and it's already plenty fast!  It's a fun car to drive.

I'll just put this (http://transamdepot.com/) here.

Need some advice... so UP YOU GO THREAD!

I'm in love with the Audi TT.  I also loved my VW GTI.   I recently bought a Subaru Outback to be practical and I HATE HATE HATE it.  I'm going to find myself something fun to drive that is also decent for cross country road trips.  Coupes/hatchbacks only.  (thought about Mazda3 speed, but too many doors)

Anyone have a comparable suggestion to a TT or GTI?  I plan to buy something 1-4 years old with 30k miles or less, so no new models (unless < 30K).

Thanks!

Go for the Audi :) it may be easier to find a used A5 instead of the TT.  I have a A4 and that is the nicest road car I have ever drove.

Do they make a 2 door A4?

I'll check.

You musta skipped the turbo version of the Outback.

How about a G37 coupe?

I'll check it out. 

Compared to my GTI, the Outback handles and drives like a pig.  I thought I could get used to it, but I just can't.

A5 for the most part is the 2 door version of the A4.

Our WRX wagon handles far, far better than our G35.  There's a bunch of apples-to-oranges going on here but they are, like, not even comparable.  Now I'm morbidly curious how much the different body/engine on the Outback could screw it up so badly (and also I think they keep changing the body of the damn thing - is it back to looking like an Impreza?)  The WRX has been awesome and totally sold us on Subaru.  A Forester with the turbo will probably replace it when it dies, but it is still going strong at 160k and so that isn't likely until 2018.

It's priced like an A6, though.

There's also the BMW 3 series Coupe. I used to drive one (323ci). It was great to drive, when it was actually running properly :awesome_for_real: :oh_i_see:

I drive a Infiniti G37 Sedan now. Drives very similarly to the previous gen 3 series (new 3 series has electric steering, bah).

I test drove the G37 and it was a nice car!    As far as the A5 goes if you are buying it used the price drops significently.  30k miles may be a little tough but there are a lot of lease returns around the 3 year mark with decent mileage.  30k should be doable.

Buy another GTI!

You can get a brand new one with everything but the Autobahn package for less than 30k. Hell you can probably still find 2012 models around that are discounted.

(Though looking at it, the 2013 doesn't have the Detroit wheels which is lame cause they are cool!)

Someone want to offer some general buying tips?

And what's the real skinny on buy vs lease?  I'm tending towards a lease because I might want to give it back in 2 years.  Thx

Leasing is the same as renting anything else. You still are making the monthly payment and have to front the down payment and some maintenance costs and at the end you get to have nothing to show for it.  You're paying the depreciation costs to the dealer and doing them a favor while they make money. 

If you want to give it back in 2 years, find a beater and buy it. Most leases I've seen are 36 month minimum with a penalty for breaking them early. (i.e. "Sure you can walk away, just pay us the next year's lease value and you're out of the contract!  Heck since we're such good guys we'll just roll that in to your next lease payment for you.")    You can try transferring the lease to someone else, but that's as big of a pain as trying to sell a car, and again you don't get anything out of it.

I'm with ^ that guy. Why would you blow cash on something you're just going to hand back? I mean, unless you're rolling in the deep. (Pockets)

Leases make sense for a lot of people considering that prior to recession the average length of ownership for a car was 39 months.

It's just a math problem. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. There's no hard or fast ALL LEASING BAD rule.

If the cost of leasing < the cost of purchasing the car minus what you get back on the trade-in on the next car (over a comparable time span), then lease without feeling guilty.

Yes, you can always find *a* car to buy that makes more sense than leasing from a purely financial perspective, assuming you're willing to discard any other requirements you might have for a vehicle, but the money is not the sole decision making criterion.

Ditto buying new vs buying used. I'm quite happy with my 'bought new' FJ and hope to have it on the road at least 11 more years.

But my next truck will be something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1951-Chevy-3800-1-ton-ORIGINAL-Dually-Flatbed-Dump-NICE-Grain-Truck-/271097444223?#ht_500wt_1182).

So what'd you drive? Find anything you like?

Try an Audi A3? (Though might be too similar to the GTI to be anything different).

I'm gonna necromanciate this because I too have the new car fever. As someone might remember I have a´08 Fiat 500, but I want to change it into something more suited to longer range travel. We have no kids so there's only need for comfy seating for two.

My musings so far are as follows (newest models):

1) Ford Focus hatchback with loads of bells & whistles. A boring choice but it's well priced and guaranteed to be nice. Plus I've driven one of the older models and I really liked it.
2) Nissan Juke with 4WD. Finland has lots of snow and I hate driving with FWD in heavy snow. I get most of my driving pleasure in the summer though.
3) Honda CR-Z. Hybrids are hella cool and this one appeals to the same part of my brain as the Fiat. Plus it has decent performance.

What is a man to do?

Drove the Honda and was annoyed by the limited vision.  Test drive one yourself.  It's a nice car, but the lack of vision made me nuts.

Ford Focus: The SVT was nice (albeit a bit spendy) and a decent value.  It's cheap to maintain and fun to drive.

Nissan juke: Felt heavy and poorly balanced to me.  I was disappointed.

Also consider: Mazda 3 Speed and VW Golf GTI.  Both are sporty hatchbacks that are fun to drive, comfortable on long trips, and have some decent hauling capacity.

Mazda 3 is a distinct possibility, but so far the new models offered here only come with an awful 2.0 liter 120hp engine. Golf GTI on the other hand costs a shitload here. I'd go with the equivalent Skoda, but it's one of those cars driven by douchebags. Plus the DSG gearbox has been known to break down early due to some defect or another, and so far VW has seen it fit to consider it outside the warranty.

BMW M3.

Prices for new M-series cars starting at $181k here.

 :why_so_serious:

I would be interested to hear about said DSG problem as I have one in my GTI  :why_so_serious:

Do they sell Subarus in Finland? I really liked the Impreza sport (it is a mini-wagon) and if I had not gotten the deal I got on my GTI I would have purchased one.

Toyota Matrix has an AWD model.

I can only find a Finnish language article about DSG gearboxes breaking down at 60-100k km, when the stated lifespan is 250k. Fixing it costs about 2k euros, and the distributor is only offering to pay half of it. I'm way too neurotic to get one after reading it.

edit: they do sell Subaru and they just did a price decrease to increase sales. Maybe I should consider them too, assuming they're going to offer something else than the low end model and the WRC. It seems to be a thing of the smaller brands around here, they only sell the standard model and the extra pricey special, nothing in between.

edit2: Toyota Matrix is known as the Auris here, and there's no AWD model. Only Urban Cruiser or RAV4. Or if I was a Russian oligarch tourist, a Land Cruiser.

I'm a professional mechanic, all makes and models. You couldn't pay me to own a Volkswagon.

What would you recommend, reliability wise?

I also forgot the Suburu Impreza WRX.  I think it comes in 4 door and hatchback models.

My brother is a BMW mechanic and I'm now suspicious of them.  I was already wary of Mercedes due to family-in-law experiences.  Just now, VW is on the list and I think that rounds out all the German badges. :oh_i_see:

I'm thinking I'll probably stay away from GT cars, as the years go on I want more comfort than performance tuning. A powerful engine is still a must though. The Fiat is a really light car so it goes well, but you gotta rev high. Also it consumes way too much fuel at summer highway speeds.

I don't think I'd ever own anything but a German car.  Yes, they are expensive to maintain, but they perform so well for their price point.  Nothing really compares.

I think that's the line: how much resource do you tolerate spending on maintenance.  A Mercedes will last you a lifetime if you take it in for service on the recommended schedule.  I'm just not able to do that sort of thing.

When it was 1200 dollars for a water pump failure on my customers four year old BMW, (just from the part, not the labor) that's when my giggling went straight into wondering what the hell people see in these piles of shit.

As far as what I would recommend, it sounds like you're across the water, I don't really know whats available to you.

We basically have most of the same European and Asian cars, except for the weird daughter brands. The only one of those here is Lexus, because this is Toyota country. Car taxation is unbelievably high, so most people drive old cars. On top of that the tax is based on CO2 emissions, so small gas turbos are the only reasonable performance cars. Diesels would be great but to ensure revenue there's a flat yearly tax on those, based on weight.  So in short, taxes taxes taxes.

American cars are terribly overpriced here save for Chrysler and Jeep, no sense in getting one.

Drive one.  Then drive a crappy American car.  It's obvious why people drive German cars. 

I've always wondered why it is that America can land on the moon, develop the iPad, and be first in so many things while still producing shitty cars and audio equipment.

People routinely dump there german cars 4-6 years after they buy them (new) because the free maintenance and warranty are gone and the repair costs start punching then in the dick. You lease a german car, you buy the other ones. I have driven quite a few german cars as well and they are nice, but not nice enough to bleed out to pay for repairs on them. No way in hell I'd ever own one... but I am relatively poor so the cost of maintaining > quality of the drive. I'll keep my RSX-S until I can't find engines for it.

It's possible that the UAW was not involved in the iPad or NASA.

GM cars are awful, even the Cadillac.  Fords seem pretty OK, at least they seem to be cheap to maintain.  The Mustang is easy to modify, at least some of them.  I figure any American car should come with a roller deck and a chain horse.

I drive Nissans, which I'm given to believe are actually French.  They typically don't break, which I enjoy, and they drive pretty OK also.  I put some Goodyear Eagle GT on my G37 (JP Skyline) and I really have a good time in it considering it's a four-door.

My S4 is a money pit, but goddamn it's fun to drive - especially in the winter. I have been saying I need to sell it for 2 years, but I always come up with some reason why I should keep it for awhile longer.

Huh. The 2001 Beetle we got lasted until...2013. Only put like 80,000 miles on it though. We sold it when the brake repairs were gonna run 1600 or so. (Apparently there's a very expensive part).

I've had my Prius since 2009, and I'm still quite happy with it. We picked up an Elantra too, to replace the Beetle, and so far so good.

I got a 2002 BMW M3 last summer, with 80k miles. Yes it can be expensive to repair at a BMW shop, but if you can do a little yourself it's really not bad. Well taken care of cars (which top end models tend to be) will last a long time and drive better than most new vehicles. Honestly, this M3 is hands down a 1000 times better than the brand-new 2002 Mustang I had back in the day. (Of course, it was also significantly more expensive than the Mustang in 2002).

I have, and I do. Although they certainly aren't crappy. I have a 2008 Pontiac G6 GT, and a 2007 Chev Avalanche LTZ. Love both of em. Zero problems on either. Much more comfortable than anything even close to the price range of both cars combined. I stand by what I've said.

Toyotas of most types are pretty decent, though I can't think of an AWD model offhand that makes me go wow. I don't fit in a Honda, but I have no mechanical issues with them. Subarus are fine. I'm irritated about their lack of customer care on their head gasket issues they've had, but that seems to have gone away since 2008. If you were going to go with a euro model, Mercedes is about the only one I could recommend. Pricey and what not. Stay the hell away from any Chrysler products.

Being involved in the automotive world, I'll second all of this.  It's hard to go wrong with any of the listed cars and staying away from Chrysler is a wise choice for the most part ("Dodge" does mean "to evade or avoid" after all).  Mercedes\BMW\etc are all very fine cars, just be prepared to do the yearly maintenance and it not being cheap once the warranty runs out.

This is my issue with Hyundai and Toyota.  Good value cars, but they are so 'meh'.  Bland bland bland.  All the driving in the world just can't eeek any fun out of them.  

Walrus: I understand what you mean about domestics being a good value.  They're cheap to buy and cheap to maintain.  I prefer to spend a little more and really enjoy the driving experience.  It's just a personal taste thing.  I own a BMW 128i and it's not that much more expensive than your Pontiac.  See the reviews below.

Car and Driver road test: G6 GT (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/pontiac-g6-gt-road-test)

Car and Driver road test: BMW 128i (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2008-bmw-128i-short-take-road-test)

Yeah the right answer is always a recent model year used Corolla, but omg even I'm not that boring.

I am. The deeper you get into "boring" the further you are from "terrifying", which is fine by me as far as driving is concerned. Currently in the market for a used Civic coupe or something. Hadn't looked into Hyundai though, will have to do that.

Well sure Nebu. If I didn't have a family I wouldn't have to buy a car that had room for them. :P

I love my 2007 Acura RDX.  It is really fun to drive, stable in bad weather, big enough for lugging kids to sports but not a monster SUV.  And the '07 was only a 4 cylinder turbo.  Now the RDX is V6.

For the first time ever I traded in a car before it was on it's last legs and swapped the Camry Hybrid for an Avalon Limited Hybrid, it has a bit more power, a bit better fuel economy and a shitload of more luxury.  The trim seems pretty equivalent to my dads $80k 2010 Lexus.  I realize it isn't the "driving" experience of a real road car but 90% of my driving is in rush hour where you are very lucky if you can even go near the speed limit.

Fuck, I'm getting drawn back into hot hatches after watching a bunch of Top Gear and Fifth Gear. The Ford Focus ST Wagon looks criminally good...can't wait for spring.

I urge you to test drive the Ford Focus SVT hatch and the Mazda 3 speed.  They are both quite fun to drive, decent on gas, and have excellent carrying capacity for their class.

Speed3 is sooooo ugly though.

Get a WRX if you want performance and poor weather handling.

We only get the sti here and it costs €70k ($95k).

THe Focus ST is a fairly nice car. I was running next to one on 294 near Chicago over the break and it looks really sharp.

I found two new contenders, with pics because you Murricans might not have seen 'em. Not doing any test drives until the cars are back on summer tires.

The new Peugeot 308, released last week I think. This is definitely not a GT car, but the top spec model is crazy luxurious, and I looove the design. Should drive ok, in the French way of being super comfy. Bonus points for a rad 10" touchscreen.

KIA Cee'd GT. Doesn't quite have the panache, but 25% cheaper than the competition and 7 year warranty goes a long way.

We have a 2005 KIA Sorento and it has been absolutely bulletproof for us. Just routine care and maintenance, and cheap at that. Wouldn't hesitate to recommend one to anybody.

Have you checked out the Hyundai Veloster Turbo?
I know it doesnt have quite the power, but all in all a decent, sporty and yet affordable car.

I know you said you wanted to stay away from the sport tuning, but you should test drive a FR-S (toyota gt-86 in Europe)
Here is mine:   *note the back seat is not pratical at all.
 
 

Hyundai cut the Veloster from their Finnish lineup, so that's a no go. Too bad, cos I liked it when it was around. I guess it's really true that the car dealerships are in a crisis in this country.

Which brings me to the GT86. I could have that, but it costs 50k euros, or 68k you ess dee. And they wonder why they don't get any sales.

How much does fuel cost in Finland?

holy shit, mine was roughly 31k cdn taxes and extended warranty. :uhrr: :ye_gods:

thats highway robbery!

of course, id be happy to sell you mine for a measly 35k euro  :grin:

$9/gallon.

 :why_so_serious:

I'd have to remove all the windows and the windshield, and replace them with identical ones with appropriate EU markings. Otherwise it won't be road legal.

 :why_so_serious:

ok then, 30k euros

Good lord.  It never ceases to amaze me just how good we have it re: cars and gas here in the States.  I could have bought two copies of my current car for that (even at MSRP) and still had change left over.

We are a bit of an outlier in Europe too, the GT86 costs 30k euros in Germany. Also, the US model is priced lower by Toyota so I think there might be some trim missing. Anyway, in Finland the average car is about 11 years old because of the taxation. It's traditionally a big revenue source for the govt, so they fight tooth and nail to keep it, even breaking EU law for like a decade (and now trying to weasel out of having to pay back the money).

Out of curiosity, what's in place to stop you from going to Germany, buying it there and just driving it back home (aside from weather concerns)?

The price difference is for the most part taxes, that you have to pay regardless of where the car was bought. So it's a complete no go on new cars. With used cars it's feasible but still full of really annoying paperwork and a bit risky. The process of paying the tax is deliberately opaque, with customs flat out refusing to tell the sum before importing, or the formula used to calculate it. A few years ago the customs got caught taxing the tax, and after that deliberately stalled in order to get beyond the statute of limitations (the thing I referred to in my last post).

Short version, it's a terrible ordeal so most people just don't bother with it.

 

{chant}M3 M3 M3 M3 M3{/chant}

(http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/101.jpg)

Is there anyone who owns an M3 that isn't a complete douchenozzle? I thought that was one of the requirements?

They don't charge you the taxes when you get the title/plates? That is how most states in the U.S. do it to avoid the whole sales tax avoidance thing.

My dad's friend isn't a douche. He's too old for that.

He's rich, however, and the M3 is mostly raced. It's rarely ever driven on city streets.

So shouldn't mileage be at the very top of your list of needs? The difference between, say, 20 mpg and 30 mpg is $45 every 300 miles, if you assume you drive this thing for 100k miles and gas stays constant (it will actually go up almost certainly making this number bigger) you save yourself $15,000 in gas over the lifetime of the car. That is an insane amount of money.

Depends on the state. I looked into purchasing from out-of-state when I was searching for a vehicle. Buying from a dealer, they normally will take the tax and give you a receipt - to which you take that to the DMV (AAA here in PA) and they do some state tax money swapping and you only get charged the difference if any (sadly, you don't get a refund if you paid more than the tax the state requires). However, down in SC, they consider your vehicle a piece of property and take a yearly tax on its value that has to be paid prior to you getting your plate/tags. Get that receipt and take it to the DMV and get your plates. YMMV in other states.

I'm sure you say that about anyone who drives a nicer car than you.  :cthulu:

This is very true, but this is not really a reason based thing right now. My Fiat is still good for 2 or 3 years, so it makes zero economic sense to change.

But not to worry, the small turbos all come with stop starts and whatnots these days, so the difference in fuel use is not going to be all that big. And the way I drive, I currently only get 35mpg in the city anyway.
 

 
 

Well fudge, I may have to go with VW Group after all. The new Seat Leon is getting rave reviews and is basically the same car as the Golf but with Kia level prices. Seat is probably unknown in the US, so here's a picture.


(http://i.imgur.com/faypEen.jpg) 

Nifty!  Looks like you have a lot more options with VAG car powertrains over there - which one you looking at?

1.4 or 1.8 TSI with manual would be ideal. There's some good deals floating around on cars with DSG, but I'm still feeling antsy about that.

DSG is great to drive. Mind you I just hit 14.5k miles on my GTI ( in almost two years ownership) so I can't really comment on the long term reliability but I like it a lot.

I traded my GTI in with 120k miles.  Never had a single issue with it and never had to replace the break pads!

Car fever doesn't let up, so I'm taking my Fiat in to fix a scrape on the bumper. It'll cost about 300 to fix, but I'm pretty sure doing it will benefit me more than that when selling the car.

I also visited Ford and SEAT dealerships. I gotta say, the Leon FR model with leather/alcantara seats feels soooo nice. Focus is a bit more everyday, but it's available with a tuned engine for 200hp and the warranty stays intact.

I'm reserving test drives right after I'm done with my miniatures painting binge.

Also, does anyone have experience buying a car that has been used for test drives? The savings would be nice, and those are usually decked out with every gizmo available.

What do you mean "test drives"? Most cars you purchase that are not big volume models will always have a few test drive miles on them.

My GTI had 380 miles on when I bought it and it had no issues.

How odd, must be a cultural difference. Here, a new car will be as close to zero mileage as possible, and the dealers have a bunch of specific cars that are used for test drives and/or as company cars. They're sold after a few months, usually at around 2k miles. 

Well, my car was a previous model year car so if had been on a dealer lot for over a year so it had more miles than is typical. Most new cars are sold with as few miles as possible. But if I see a car I like at a lot, even if there are 4 of them in different colors they will usually let me drive the one I choose.

Might also be the high price of new cars here, people are really picky about them.

Sounds more like a demo car, which can influence the price over in the US as well.  Cars here are the same way, some models get higher miles on them than you'd think and still be considered "new" while others have barely any.

We do have loaner cars here, especially for higher end brands (BMW, Mercedes, etc) that are given to folks while their car is in the shop. My Mercedes was a loaner car that I picked up with 8k miles, 1yo, and at a significant discount. Seemed fine and was dealer maintained. Didn't like how it drove though, so went another route eventually.

Damn near every single one of my friends has at least 1 m3, and I've got a Z3M.

Wait, shit.

Holy poop, the scrape repairs came out perfect, the old car looks spotless! Now I can feel good about doing test drives and asking for quotes, which is good because the Nissan Juke Nismo is looking suhhhweet. Also, they stopped selling the CR-Z here because of low demand, and there's one last car in the dealership's inventory that's been sitting there for a year, 2k miles on it. All of the trim and 15% off the sticker price right now, I wonder how much further I could haggle. Assuming I like it of course, this is going to be a difficult decision.




 

I adore the CR-Z look, but would rather them have a K24 series engine in them.

Then again, I really like the new Type-R Civic coming to a place NOT the USA soon.
http://jalopnik.com/next-honda-civic-type-r-harbinger-of-more-vtec-turbos-1467391006

Any have experience with brokers for buying a new car?  pro or con? 

I assume they charge a fee.  Why would you pay more?  Finding a car is not hard.  The time involved is directly related to how picky you are.

Was just talking to a co-worker about that. I love using a broker. Especially for new cars. The price they quote you includes their commission, so there is no extra on top.  And the price quoted is always better than I can get on my own. (On a used car, good ones will also do a mechanical inspection for you before they get the car and deliver it to your house - and even take your trade in!)

Great experience for me.

Well, one issue is that no one is giving me a straight price.  I was trying to ask about costs per model (Subaru Foresters) and costs per additional item, etc.  I visited one dealer, and later they still insist on me returning there to get quotes.  I do not have time to visit 5-6 dealerships.  Really I don't have the weekend hours to spare.  I'm not lazy.  I have family and work stuff.  Things are very rough time wise.  Add I don't expect to close a deal via email, but I think some basic price data beyond MSRP would be obliging.

So, ya -- I might need someone to fetch that deal data per dealer.  Makes sense?

Do you know which trim level/options you want?

Just look at something like autotrader or cars.com, then contact the dealer through there. It is how I found my GTI and my friend found his Outback. You will basically get the best price that way.

Foresters are currently in super-high demand, at least in our area.  There was like a two-month wait for ours to get here and they didn't even really care if we left a deposit because it was gonna sell to someone if we flaked.  I think when it arrived it doubled their inventory for the one day it sat there before we picked it up.

It's gonna be difficult to get price quotes if they're similarly scarce in your neck of the woods.

Well fuck me, my car seems to be protesting my plans to sell it. I had the bulbs on the headlights changed, and already a week later one of them is burnt again. The customer service person was kind of annoying too when I called to ask them to do it again.

Woot, went and did some test drives. I also got offers on the Fiat, way higher than I'd anticipated. The race is now between Seat Leon FR 1.8 TSI and Nissan Juke Nismo (both FWD and manual).

The Seat is a refined thing inside. Fast but can give good gas mileage.
The Nissan has all of the electronics but feels a bit more working class. It's hell of fast but a bit of a guzzler because of the sporty gear ratios.
Both drive pretty much equally nice. Seat has better suspension, but Nissan has an awesome high driving position.

Prolly going to come down to money, so whoever can give the better deal wins. Or alternatively, whichever salesperson turns annoying first loses.

Well I guess the annoyance factor came up. Nissan's dude called me at work and was all like "hey I forgot to say the rate offer expires today", then I was all like dude I'm in the middle of something, call you in a bit, and now he's not answering the phone.

So unless he comes back groveling with an even better offer, Seat it will be.

The Juke is fugly, go with the Seat.

Buying a new car is going to be up there with getting your teeth drilled or passing a kidney stone for me soon.  I guess being unhelpful is a negotiation tactic.

Use a broker! (do those exist in EU?)

Welp, got the Juke Nismo. The sales guy gave me about 1k worth of extra discount and trim, so I considered that apology enough.  :grin:
Now I have to wait a month because of tax reasons.

Fake edit: and for Ingmar, the gas economy difference should get offset by smaller service and insurance costs.

The car looks pretty much like this:

Congrats!  The Juke is a cool little car.

Well, we got a new car.  Sharing this because 1) I know nothing about cars, 2) I don't care to, 3) I don't like the sales process (prefer to play a card game), and 4) kind of a funny story?

Basically, I wanted a new Subaru Forester as a jumped up grocery getter (I've had one for years and years) and because of 1 and 2 I didn't want to do any real research.  I had called and emailed around and visited some show rooms. Nobody was helping me along; specifically, no one would answer how much the MSRP+ would be with x trim option.  One guy that was actually recommended to me spent literally 5mins explaining why the ONE trim option I wanted (GPS nav) was a bad idea.  Terrible speech rec, inaccurate maps, "PITA", "computers are complicated."  You know what?  Computers are dumb.  Getting through to people is hard.  I tried to explain that Lianka my SO made her living with ASR and was finishing grad work on ASR, and then I spent more time over the phone trying to explain what ASR was...  I know the limits of ASR, and I still wanted what I wanted. So, yeah the only guy that I was making progress with tried to talk me out of the one thing I wanted.  Not realizing that that ONE thing may have been important.

Friday afternoon I called back to the only woman salesperson I had met with but I had not replied to (my miss).    Instant sale.  She asked what I wanted, make/model/GPS, said there was "several around" (which recommended guy said there were none), asked me how much I wanted to put down, how much a monthly payment I wanted to make, talked to their finance guy, called me back, took my CC for a deposit, and less than 24hrs later I had the vehicle with only 71miles on it. 

I'm baffled.  I felt like I was trying to give my money to these other sales guys and they didn't get it.  Totally motivated buyer.  Didn't care about color, trim, other than ONE thing... Maybe the lesson is also look for the non pushy woman?  Definitely next time.

A safe bet is that they had models on their lot they were trying to get rid of and wanted to push you into one of those instead. I worked a short stint for a dealership, and the car buyer was convinced that people only wanted silver, white, and tan cars because that was the majority of sales. Pointing out that that was also the only colors he purchased didn't really make sense to him. He specifically had his sales people push to sell cars on the lot instead of ordering in what a customer wanted, so your story sounds real familiar. It's a dumb way to do business, especially with the quantity of dealerships available.

Well, all that extra overtime paid off :)
I was on my way to Brazil to work some extra shifts and saw this yellow Jeep in the used Ford lot. Had to stop the next morning, and ended up buying it that day! Was what I wanted (2000-2004 Jeep 4.0 Wrangler with under 100,000 -has 82,000 on it and it good shape).

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11535876_10205762769841307_1176805068602203506_n.jpg?oh=81312408b05a2fdad272607f01305f93&oe=5629493B)

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/11406812_10205762770001311_459334397499232873_n.jpg?oh=b8e054cdbd07d97738a7ea1310ea450c&oe=55F0EDAB)

Wasn't planning on getting it, had been driving an '89 Mercury Cougar that kept having goof shit break, like a month ago the right automatic window motor went to hell so I couldn't roll down the right window, then 2 weeks ago the air condition went out along with the blower motor for the A/C, so I really didn't want to keep it and didn't want to dump more money, and this came along :)

Pretty please change the coolant regularly. Thank you.

Amen to that on regular maintenance. I used to do my own fluid changes and flushes, now I usually pay my friend who is a shop owner to do it. One of my friends from work wants me to go wheeling with her, so eventually I'll have to go stomping in the mud with her.

Is that a euphemism?  :why_so_serious:

Why can't it be both  :grin:

Is that a gnome?

The thing in the yard, in the second pic? I'm going with rain gauge.

Hmm.  Not a gnome.

Gnome is up by the front door. The house is the one I grew up in, it is my Mom & Dad's farm (except we don't farm much any more...).

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/798a7ff8d17b2fdc006cd3e2f146581e/tumblr_nqdnnaRolT1skz7tyo1_500.jpg)

http://40.media.tumblr.com/d97daf8762d53aa22e278705e49b6d3c/tumblr_nqdn6hDEje1skz7tyo1_500.jpg (http://40.media.tumblr.com/d97daf8762d53aa22e278705e49b6d3c/tumblr_nqdn6hDEje1skz7tyo1_500.jpg)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/34d9020d54cf951c5d00f297b387f4a4/tumblr_nqdn5mrge91skz7tyo1_500.jpg)

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/e24e6eaaaa3feece3a2ebfbfbbcfe5c9/tumblr_nqdn5ut67k1skz7tyo1_500.jpg)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/5f548ccc06933de741c7badb8679af38/tumblr_nqdn625z4c1skz7tyo1_500.jpg)

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/5f548ccc06933de741c7badb8679af38/tumblr_nqdn625z4c1skz7tyo1_500.jpg)

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/30861d59752cc13706e1212038cd7597/tumblr_nqdn6arPYq1skz7tyo1_500.jpg)

Gaston the Gnome is outside our door here, and I've got one near my front door too (house Gnomes :) ). No rain gauge, it is a decorative flag by the flag pole. The Jeep has been pure fun, amazed at the amount of Jeep owners who don't wave...

Hey Sky and any other FJ Cruiser owners, any real complaints on them? It is sad as hell Toyota stopped making them  :sad: My son's Liberty is freaking nickle and dime'ing me to death, so I'm thinking of just getting a used 2007 FJ that is really sweet. He doesn't like the Wranglers, so the other thing might be a pickup for him, which case would be a Toyota or Ford (but Ford stopped the Ranger and manual transmissions...grrr).

Oh TheWalrus, you were way right! I changed everything as far as oil and coolant and the damn head still exploded on a trip! Then I found out the 4.0 had an imperfection in them that made them prone to overheating and blowing gaskets and warping the heads...ugh..so advice is if you're looking for a 1997 to 2006, look for 2003 where they fixed it or go ahead and pay to upgrade the cooling system and/or head. I love driving it, but this 2000 Wrangler has been a full of gremlins, little shit keeps breaking on it. How is the 2007 and up Wranglers holding up lately? My friends that have them don't seem to have the troubles that I do.

Electrical problems and suspension issues.  They aren't terrible, but more and more electronics over the years and they're now hitting the age where nickle and diming is going to be coming on and hitting you.  If you're fine with that and able to fix it yourself or know a trusted mechanic, go for it.

Thanks, hell that is one of my issues, I have frame rot on both sides of my Wrangler now, that and replacing the water pump, radiator, & heater core (& thermastat, & hoses/clamps), are pressing issues on my Wrangler. I should have crawled under & tapped & poked all over the frame, but hind sight is 20/20. I used to be able to tackle a radiator no problem, hell we did one on a 85 thunderbird in our clinic parking lot back '93. But now I get frustrated working on them like I used to... Bith of us are Volunteer Firemen & need something for all weather response & ability on the farmy parents have.

So I have (or have had, for the past two years) a 2012 Wrangler. Driving it cross-country now, the only issues are:

1) High-speed stability leaves something to be desired...but it's a Jeep, so duh.
2) My rear driver's side blinker goes out intermittently, which is annoying. I'll have to address it once I'm back home. It stopped working for about 10 days...then magically was working for a week, and is now again not working.  :oh_i_see:

Otherwise, it seems pretty dependable...though that could be because I only have about 20k miles on it at this point.

I believe you're in Ohio if I recall (or at least up north), practically everything up there over 6 years old is going to have frame issues sooner rather than later.  Water pump, radiator, heater core, etc are all just wear items needing to be done on a car once it's hit 6+ years old, sooner if they aren't maintained well.  Jeeps have been somewhat notorious for rot and suspension problems on the Wranglers for a while now and electrical problems go back to the AMC era.  Even here in the south I see cars that have obviously spent most of their time off the road in the dirt without being taken care of and their frames and bodies are having problems.

The good news if you do those items, chances are you're good for another 6+ years without issue, minus the rot issues.  The Liberty is going to continue to nickle and dime you, I've not heard of anyone having great luck with them.  The 2011+ models are going to have more and more Mercedes content on them (read: $$$).

If you need an all-weather vehicle that won't give you too much trouble, the Cherokee with the 4.0 is a pretty solid customer and the Toyota automatic in them gives virtually no trouble.  Run forever.  Consider investing in finding one from the southwest (non-rusty) to be ahead on the vehicle rotting away.

I just broke 150k (mostly Highway, some crazy off road) miles on my 2008 FJ. I'm on the second set of tires, and replacing the original brakes tomorrow. Haven't had any issues, and am just doing the brakes/rotors just in case, they're still in spec, but that many miles is just crazy. I should probably do a tune up too. But it still drives just wonderfully, and after the new brakes are worn in I'll be doing a drive across the Pikes Peak national forest again.

Both our cars are over 150k--a Subaru Forester and an old Saturn. We are edging closer to getting a new car, but both run for the moment pretty well.

Just a heads up, I'd do that tune up sooner rather than later. I'm sure by 08 all Toyota stuff was COP, and the newer coil packs seem to really dislike increased electrical loading. I mean, it's possible that all of my break down maintenance customers have just had really bad luck with their vehicles, but I'm inclined to think their shitty maintenance schedules have karma'd up their lives.

Still love mine. Only complaint is the VSC (Vehicle Stability Control). On the 07/08 it's always on unless you have 4WD engaged, as of 09 there is a disable switch. 09 also sees the backup camera as standard, and most people need that because of poor rear visibility (I used to drive a dump truck, so I'm used to it, I can back into tight spots without it). The only other negative I can think of is the 07 has a minor flaw in the engine compartment if he's going to go rock crawling (it can crack).

If he likes pickups, the FJ is basically an SUV version of a Tacoma.

I just got my second set of tires for my FJ, too. I don't beat it nearly as much as Ratty, I just broke 44k miles  :drillf:  I keep up with maintenance on it and have had zero issues. Refreshing change from Jeeps (always breaking down/requiring repairs). Also been thinking of a tune-up, just because I've had it so long.

So we started our test drives over the weekend. Got lucky with the Mazda dealership, they were slammed so we basically got handed keys and a plate and took the cars. Which was really nice, because we were able to talk about stuff without a salesnerd up our butts and I felt a lot better about the shit I put those cars through (there's a great obstacle course on a parking lot nearby that I use for agility testing).

Mazda CX-3 GT felt pretty underwhelming. Engine should have more power for the size, felt like it was struggling even in the 'sport' gearing. Too bad, it was comfortable and had good tech; but my stubby shortling fiancee felt closed in and didn't like the cargo space (metric is 'can we load our bikes in it?'). Still tentatively in, but probably out.

Mazda 3s GT had similar issues with power. Better than the CX-3, but not much. Really nice handling on the obstacles, ridiculously small turn radius. Super low car, uncomfortably so. Felt like we were sitting on the ground and we couldn't see around most other vehicles. Also comfortable, bigger cabin but still tight for cargo, same tech package. Between the low seating and lack of AWD, I think this one is out already.

Subaru Crosstrek Premium...loved it. Unfortunately they didn't have a premium on the lot, so we drove a mid-range model. Felt plasticky and cheap compared to the Mazdas, and felt like last century compared to the Mazda's tech packages. But oh man, the ride was sooo good. Unfortunately, it's a shit dealership and we had the shit salesman along so we couldn't abuse it properly. And he took so long we didn't have time to drive an Impreza. Fuck that guy. Anyway. Great engine and drive train in this thing, punchy as hell. Suspension was beautiful. Better cargo than the Mazdas, and good seating position. Forgot all about the lack of luxury in the interior because it's just a great driver. It was my favorite from the specs and I'm hoping she gets one, but my money would be on her wanting an Impreza.

We're going to have to drive a few cities away to go to a better Subaru dealer (seriously, fuck that dealership), hopefully drive a premium model and also an Impreza. We can test a Golf in town, not sure we want to waste the time testing the Honda HR-V EX-L. Also hope we can find a Pruis 4 in stock somewhere to test.

Try a Mazda 3 speed.

Subaru's struggle from underpowered engines and a lack of creature comforts.  If you want a nice interior, don't get a Subaru.

I'd also encourage you to test drive a GTI.  Huge fan.

Honda's are underpowered but have nice interiors.  Nice compromise between Mazda and Subaru. 

I wouldn't call the Subaru underpowered at all. She had to struggle to keep it under the speed limit. Though she's lightfooted and doesn't push cars the way I do, but it is for her to drive, not me.

She's not really interested in the GTI version of the Golf. I'll try to get her to try one while we're on the lot.

Is the Mazda 3 speed the 's' version? I think she wanted the 'i' but if the 's' improves the lack of punch in the 3, she might revisit it. But man, that thing sits so low I really didn't like it at all. Also, no AWD. Winter.

If you think the Mazda 3 is too low, don't even bother with the GTI.

The sales dude who sold me my G37 made the mistake of telling me to "drive it like I stole it".

0-60 in ~9s seems like an eternity to me.  I'm adjusting to my Jeep Wrangler being sluggish and it does a 6.7s.

You don't need to do that though, unlike the VTEC Hondas where you had to hit the higher RPMs to get it to switch over to the performance cam profile.

Yeah, just get another SUV. You keep talking about "road height" and "seeing around other vehicles"  You're not getting that with SUVs and Minivans on the road. As a lifetime Sedan driver (fuck SUVs) you learn skills to compensate for the inability to see through other vehicles these days because every motherfucker on the road has to "sit high so I can see."  :oh_i_see:

*cough*

Anyway, just go for the SUVs and stop looking at crossovers. They'll all be too low for you.

Where does "I need to see over the other cars" end?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_XT  :why_so_serious:

This is for her, not me. She doesn't want a large vehicle, she currently drives a Toyota Matrix and would buy another if they still made them.

As I said, I think the Crosstrek is about perfect. But at the end of the day, it's her decision.

My vehicle is the exact one I want and it's small by truck/suv standards. It's built on a Tacoma frame. We really don't have to do the 'suvs are huge and stupid' hippy bullshit every time, do we?

I can't be sure, but I'm pretty confident the salesman made a black joke.

Kind of but not really. I first heard that in the context of the Honda Del Sol where you essentially had to drive at near redline all the time to get decent engine performance from it because of the above mentioned VTEC system. There were earlier engines with VTEC but they either weren't designed to be sporty cars or had larger displacements so didn't need to be driven hard all the time to get decent performance. The S2000 also had this issue as well.

Only every time you bring-up visibility over other cars. You keep saying it's for her, but you're going to influence things when you make comments like that and clearly aren't happy with the choice. It's not a hippie thing as there's good reasons not to like them but I won't rant.


Anyway, back on the Mazdas, the "S" is a step-up from the Sports or the I model. The sports and i models are all 155hp 2.0L engines, the S models are 185hp 2.5L engines. If you want more than that, again, the SUV market is where manufacturers want you to go.

Not sure why you're getting 'it's too low' from the 3. It's got more ground clearance at 6.1" vs.  the Matrix's 5.8" It's 2" shorter though so maybe the lower roof is making you uncomfortable. You're about the same height off the ground, though.

If you had a pickup problem with the 155hp model, I don't know why you didn't with the Subaru as those are only 148hp. Gearing options, probably.

After those two cars, the Prius and the GTI, you're sort of out of 5-door options. The Honda Fit is much smaller, the Ford Focus is a Ford, BMW 4-series is going to be much more expensive, Yars is the Smartcar of Toyota, Chevy Sonic has no cargo, and the Volt has range issues being electric.  Not sure you can fit bikes any of them.

Hyundai also has the Veloster, but I'm not a fan of their cars. Great warranty, though.

VTEC engages around 5k for me and redline is around 7.5k. I don't push it that often, but my RAM air intake growls pretty nicely when I do. Outside of the occasional open road 'let it rip' moments, I keep it more in the maximum gas mileage range.

I assume that was not what he was saying.  Rather he probably figured out I wanted something sporty and was urging me to test it.  I believe he regretted it.  I know my father-in-law did. :why_so_serious:


I did buy it in Alabama so yes, this is entirely possible.  Maybe I should not have asked for the large rims.

You guys should check out the Scion iM (https://www.scion.com/models/iM/2016), which is pretty much the spiritual successor to the Matrix.  5-door Toyota hatch, though it's a bit weak (137HP) in the engine department.  Even looks pretty nice, IMO.  The Hyundai Tucson (https://www.hyundaiusa.com/tucson/index.aspx) with the 1.6 Turbo might also be worth looking at.  A buddy of mine bought one a couple of months ago, and it's a damned nice (if small) CUV.


The Veloster is completely gutless unless you buy the Turbo (which is actually pretty entertaining) - it's also maybe a half-size smaller than what they're looking for - same with the Yaris and Sonic - the Cruze is pretty close, and the upcoming Cruze 5-door (http://www.chevrolet.com/cruze-hatchback.html) looks pretty spiffy.

As for the Focus, if you can drive a stick, I'd recommend them.  Avoid the twin-clutch monstrosity they're using as the automatic option - it's a huge failure point on those cars (same for the Fiesta) with its own extended warranty because of all of the issues.  That said, I love my ST - it's a complete hoot to drive.

You must own the fastest Jeep Wrangler ever made
Pretty much all gasoline engines are like this. Power = Torque x RPM. Peak torque will be around 4000, 4500 and peak power somewhere above that. Even people running the big 250+ HP engines are only running around the 50-100 range for the majority of their driving, with the top end around 150. While that isn't low, the point is that no one really feels these cars are underpowered when driving in these ranges*.

The biggest factors in being able to really get anything out of cars of almost any power level today is

1) transmission: Automatic transmissions slip under high power; won't hold gears unless you're aggressive all the way through the cycle, and won't downshift in advance of acceleration. These are the things that make a car feel zippy. (that and low weight)

2) drivetrain: If its front wheel drive you won't get anything off the line due to the weight shifting and losing traction but won't make much of a deal for at-speed acceleration. Ideal is RWD for everything but the snow but AWD is just fine so long as you don't push it hard in corners to the point of under-steer. Though AWD will necessarily be slower due to the added differential adding weight.

*The exception is if you're at a high elevation. Wooo boy, took my 150 HP Mazda 3 through the Eisenhower Tunnel and that was tough going.

Only problem with Scions is Toyota is sunsetting the brand. If it's anything like when GM closed all those brands then you'll be pressed to find parts for a while until the aftermarket catches up. I experienced this in my Saturn and it wasn't fun.

http://pressroom.scion.com/releases/scion+transition+toyota.htm

Yeah, I know about the brand going away, but I'm pretty sure the iM is coming along for the ride to the mother ship along with the 86/FR-S.  Either way, the iM is largely derived from the Auris sold elsewhere in the world and shares a driveline with other Toyotas, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

2012 Jeep Wrangler sport with a 6 speed manual.  The time came directly from Motor Trend (http://www.motortrend.com/cars/jeep/wrangler/2012/).  Apparently there are thousands of them on the road.   :grin:

I was right. Before I made the post I looked up 0-60 times and the 2012 wrangler sport was the fastest wrangler ever made hence the joke.

The FJ can dump gas into the engine and really kick into gear nicely. Scares the shit out of the old lady when I pass, because I just stand on it and BAM I'm down the road.

Really love the torque and power on it.

Anyway, it's a no to the Fit etc tiny cars. And she's only looking at auto trans. She will probably try the GTI because the VDubs dealer is the only decent one in our city, so we can spend time there (versus traveling an hour+ to find a good Subaru dealer).

That is how regular car engines work* but that's not how VTEC works.

With regular engines there's a band of high torque for a few thousand RPMs and then a steep fall off until the engine reaches its redline and peak HP on these engines usually comes right after the torque starts to fall off as you mentioned. With VTEC the torque fall off comes much later in the RPMs which means peak HP doesn't come until much closer to the redline.

E.g. here are some dyno graphs (from this article (http://www.automobilemag.com/news/gti-civic-mazdaspeed3-dyno/)).

Here's the turbocharged 2.0L 2007 VW GTI graph:

(http://i.imgur.com/oCp4jHW.jpg)


And here's the 2.0L 2007 Honda Civic SI graph:

(http://i.imgur.com/VF3ThuX.jpg)

Notice how the torque on the Civic, even though it's substantially lower than the GTI's doesn't drop significantly until it reaches almost the redline. There's even a noticable bump in torque when it switches to the high RPM cam profile, though that's just an extra bonus as it's the extended torque range and the higher redline that gives it the high HP.

Both are 2.0L engines but the VW is turbocharged and the Honda is not. It's VTEC that allows for the Civic to have a comparable HP output without the turbocharging but you have to drive it at crazy high RPMs to get that sort of output while the GTI you do not.


* Unfortunately my example uses a turbocharged engine as a comparison which has its own differences from a regular non-VTEC, non-forced induction engine but it's close enough to make my point

Turbos spin up fast enough now that they aren't really any different than a NA engine config. It probably has a flatter curve than a normal 2.0L NA engine.

I have to say I did not realize that Honda was that aggressive with its number jobbing. That is one shitty torque curve for regular driving. I mean 6 to 8 is about the same as 4 to 6 so it should be possible to set a ratio that lets you stay in that range. But if for any reason you have to hop it Christ that is terrible. And those ratios are going to make your normal driving just suck

Buuuut even then the Honda makes 60-120 from 2.5 to 5. The Jetta makes 50-140 from 2 to 4. Which should be about the normal driving ranges. The Honda isn't that much weaker.

Yes a well tuned turbo does have a flatter and extended torque curve which is why it wasn't as good as comparison as I was looking for.

Went to talk to the Ford dealer this past weekend and he was really pushing me towards 2013-2015 Fusions. They're ok cars, but I am not sure I'm a huge fan of the all electronic digital radio/AC/dash controls. My mom had an Edge and her display just used to randomly turn off (including the AC), requiring shutting the car off and turning it back on. That would drive me crazy. I sat in a Subaru but it felt super cheap inside & I didn't like the fit of the seat or steering wheel. I'm not sure they make cars for me anymore...

Camry may be the khakis of cars but it's popular for a reason. You should take a look if you were considering a Fusion.

That's exactly what my dad said. I miss the days of bigger cars that made getting in & out easier!

I felt the same way. Did you drive it? I forgot all that stuff after the test drive (Crosstrek).

From her: "no AWD avail., no heated seats, and fewer safety features than I can get on the Mazdas or Subaru." Also none in stock at any dealers in reasonable driving distance (<2hrs).

The heated seats makes me chuckle, but she's on about it, so it's a thing. And that's also part of seating position; in the Matrix she has a cushion that raises her up several inches. She wouldn't be able to use that in a car with a heated seat (defeating the purpose), so she wants a seating position like the Matrix+cushion. So far that's the Crosstrek, and given the vehicles we're looking at, it will be the only one without getting into larger SUVs, which she does not want.

They just sat differently is all. It's weird, you don't notice it until you go from an older car (90s or earlier) to a newer one. All the safety innovations mean you sit lower and tilt back more than the old bench/ bucket seats. Car's the same height, you're sitting at about the same place but it's just more inconvenient to get in and out of.

They still make those "larger" cars though. They just happen to be labeled "old people" cars now. The Avalon, Impala, Chrysler 300, Buicks and Caddys are still out there for ya. I almost did the Avalon, but couldn't convince myself that the additional $12k for the same features as my Camry was worth it.

I have don't know much about the reliability, but the new Buick Regal GS is a pretty car. Shame it doesn't come in a manual transmission.

Our last rental was Crosstrek. Really solid car.  I don't think I've ever enjoyed a rental car as much as that one. There were times I would have liked a more powerful engine though.  However, it handled the Oregon coast alright.

Starting to look at my next car as well.  My 05 Acura TSX is starting to get old. I'd like something similar. Sporty (>= 200hp), 4 door, and under 40k (hopefully).

I keep seeing references to sporty being in the 200-300 hp range.  Not sure me likey.

One thing she hated about the Mazdas was the non-adjustable (forward/backward) headrest. She sits very straight and hates seats that make you lean back. She won't sit in adirondack chairs, had to buy her a new chair for my backyard with a vertical sitting position. The CX-3 in particular that was a deal-breaker, it was pushing her head forward.

Heh.  Women.

inorite

The #1 thing I get in trouble for is chuckling quietly to myself.

I can't think of the last car I was in that had forward/ backward adjustable headrests. Even Up/ Down seems to be a rare thing these days.

I think the thing to do is get some sort of old-lady pillow.

Heated seats.  :drillf: :oh_i_see: :ye_gods:

I've learned it's impossible to make it all cohesively sensible and just go along for the ride.

Sales guy said the Crosstrek's was adjustable but I forgot to check after the test drive. You have to remove them first, iirc.

Depends on weight and gearing. But your G37 has a beast of an engine (~330 HP) so there aren't many cars that will match its straight line performance (0-60 ~5.0 secs) that aren't more expensive.

For me personally that engine was actually more power than I was looking for at the time (I have the same 2011 model as yours) but the G25 was inexplicably missing some options I wanted so I splurged and got the G37 instead. Here in Northern California it very much helps to have a certain amount of acceleration to deal with the many short freeway on-ramps and all the assholes who drive too slow in the fast lane on 280 :awesome_for_real: Something around 6.0 - 6.5 secs 0-60 would be plenty for me, though (my BMW was about 7.0 secs which was borderline).

My next car will almost certainly be something that gets better gas mileage or equivalent. I don't drive much anymore but it still would be nice to cut down on fossil fuel consumption. Something like the new BMW 330e plug-in hybrid would be near perfect for me on paper (haven't test driven one yet) as it has a long enough battery-only range to get to and from the train station with minimal gas usage* and has good performance with both motors running (0-60 ~6.0 secs). Unfortunately these BMWs have the crappy electric steering I mentioned earlier in the other thread so I would lose the steering feel that I've gotten used to over the last 16 years (my BMW and then my Infiniti).

* Even though my drive to and from the train station is about 11 miles which is less than the ~17 mile battery-only range it's mostly on an expressway where people drive up to 60 miles per hour so it would be hard to accelerate to those sorts of speeds purely on electric power in a reasonable amount of time so I would likely be using some gas.

Two big thumbs-up for Hybrids. I'm averaging 42MPG on the trip to and from the office and between 36 and 39 if highway is involved. (Just broke 50 after lunch but I was in a school zone so >20mph)

This means I fill up once every two and a half weeks unless I'm driving out of town for an event. It's glorious.

Observations:
1. N Cali drivers seem much like ATL drivers.  I see their plates on the highway and they generally don't get in my way.
2. Any issue I might have had with the "excessive" power of the G37 was eliminated by installing a set of Eagle GT tires.
3. I think 20.4 MPG is a very reasonable number. :why_so_serious:

That's about how much I fill up the FJ, often three to three and a half weeks. So infrequently she has to remind me to fill up before we go out of town because I never think about filling up my truck.

If I got a Prius I'd put gas in it every three months.

edit: Trippy, get a Tesla if you're worried about electric acceleration.  :drill:

I'm seriously considering a hybrid for when I eventually replace my 2004 Santa Fe.  I love my AWD though, especially here in Northern Illinois.  But my commute is about 33 miles one way, so right now I'm filling up weekly and that's if the damn thing feels like getting 20mpg.

What annoys me the most with my car research is how crappy gas mileage still is.  I mean, when I bought my Santa Fe in late 2003, it was rated at 18-22mpg (I think), so getting about 20 is fine.  And yeah, I get that AWDs have suckier gas mileage, but you'd think that in the past 10+ yeas, something would have improved?  Nope!  The current Santa Fe is still rated almost exactly the same mileage, which is probably the biggest factor in not wanting to get another one.  The Tuscon isn't much better.  I'm thinking about a Rav4 hybrid since I want to go smaller but having that AWD is too great a draw for living in this area.  I'd love a Prius for the mileage alone though but I'm not sure how they handle in the snow. 

I get about 24mpg in my Audi A6 with 3.0L supercharged engine. It's a lot of fun to drive and you can pick up a good factory certified used one for less than 40k.

Light trucks have a different CAFE standard and it's only just above the 1990's standard for automobiles at 28.8 when it was 23.5 before. Cars must hit 37.8 as an average for the fleet now, up from 27.5. So all the fuel economy increases are focused in cars with little in light trucks/ SUVs.

Prius' are FWD like most cars. FWD handles great in the snow in my experience. AWD never helped me out much there, though. I learned to drive in 1986 and 1969 Firebirds and a 1988 Chevy Malibu Wagon in Cleveland winters so my perception is ever so slightly skewed.

Google tells me they handle great, though. Seems that the combination of FWD and all the weight from the hybrid system being in the front means it sticks to the road well.
http://community.cartalk.com/t/prius-driving-performance-in-winter-weather/30058

I've heard bad things about Audi quality.  Also, you can't find anyone certified to work on them here, for some reason.

I'm trying to temper her push for AWD with that kind of info. I drove a VW Rabbit loooong ago and it was a trooper in the snow. Inherited it from my dad who put over 200k on it commuting to Oswego through that snow belt I mentioned in the other thread. More fun to drive if you know the tricks, too (handbrake turns, j turns, etc). I learned stick in one and still my favorite car to drive, but that's also rose-colored glasses. Battery died? Bump start it by yourself :)

My Acura is only 200HP and I think my BMW X3 is around 240.  Both are sporty enough; they're not boring to drive and I can get around people easy enough when I want to. I don't need a sports car, just sporty.  Plus, I'd like to keep the price down somewhat and get reasonable gas mileage. Before that I drove mostly light trucks and Honda Civics.  I can't go back to that.

For an only car I'm not sure I'm ready for an electric-only car that's cheaper than a Model S. E.g. the Leaf is not good (for me) and the i3 looks funny and both don't have very long ranges.

It depends on weight. But the main thing is that cars today have much flatter torque curves and so much more low end power. Combine with better transmissions (and more gears closer together for the manuals) and 200 HP cars will perform like the 300 HP cars of old. Or better.

As an example, a 1968 Vette loses to the aforementioned G37 to 60 by a good second on theoretical numbers and 2.5 seconds on published/tested numbers. The Vette has 20 more listed horsepower and weighs 500 pounds less.

edit: Don't buy an Audi. Maybe an A/S 4 is ok but Audi's are heavy and they break. You almost certainly aren't going to use the AWD because you won't get in heavy enough snow for it to matter.

A good set of snow tires makes pretty much everything decent in the snow - AWD/4WD can get you moving faster, but does fuckall for stopping or turning without proper tires.

Is she opposed to a manual transmission entirely?


I only fill up every two to three weeks too, but my drive to work is right around ten minutes and I never let the tank go below half-full during hurricane season.  One of the things that annoys me about my current car is the dinky 12 gallon tank.

I fired it up but just couldn't be inspired to waste time due to the complete lack of interest in the seats & interior.

Regarding the Prius & snow, mine did fine but I have 2 steep hills to get up & then down in my neighborhood & it would get stuck in snow going up periodically. The "going down" was scary as well, I lost control at 5mph and the car decided to slide off the road & go off-roading. Ended up bending the front subframe on the passenger side control arm mounting area and thereafter it never tracked straight. Getting it fixed was unbelievably expensive (replace entire front cradle assembly) so I dumped the car. I'm sure any smaller car would have had the same problem, doubtful it was limited to just the Prius. I drive a '73 full size station wagon now & it's beefier in such cases. Those cars & my F250 are what I'm used to getting in & out of & these smaller modern cars give my back fits getting in & out. I had forgotten about the Avalon though...

I think front wheel drive is underrated in snow.  I owned my GTI for 5 years that I lived in the Rockies.  I often had to drive to Denver in snow storms and never had an issue.  I never got stuck in mountain passes. Now, I did have a manual... so I could simply put it in gear and push myself out of minor spots.  My concern was more with being high centered rather than traction.

I understand why Sky would want some ground clearance in NY, particularly if he lives in areas where snow clearing isn't great. 

My GTI handles great in snow now that I have replaced the stock Dunlops with better (and actually less expensive, oddly enough) tires.

The issue I have is that when there is a couple inches of snow and the plows haven't hit a street recently, the piles of snow that end up between the wheel tracks on the streets get high enough that I can hear the skip plate under the engine scraping the pile. I wouldn't like the GTI as much if it had more ground clearance during non snow events, but during snow even an inch more clearance would be nice.

Yup.
Yup. This isn't me, being able to push a car out of a bank. This is a petite 52 yr old woman :) And our city sucks for snow removal, I live on a dead end that generally won't be plowed during storms (they'll wait for it to pass over if they can). Snow up over the hood in her car, snowplowing down the road. The front plastic trim work is completely messed up on her Matrix from winter driving.
There's a mid 60s flatbed sitting at the lot near the Mazda dealer that I'd love to snag. I put so few miles on a vehicle I'd ideally want a little electric for commuting and a big old flatbed for utility. Use her car for longer trips and keep the FJ or another 4WD for winter driving. I'd be the guy with the massive garage bigger than the house :p I'd also love an old camaro...

I once almost wasn't able to leave a location in my car due to ice on a hill, so 4WD is an option.

Does a 2011 G37 count as "older"?  I absolutely need to drive whatever, but 330HP in 2011 will surely not equal 220HP in 2017.  Surely?

The tradeoff for having a proper RWD car.

It would if the 220 HP car was around 2400 pounds.

A 2011 G37 counts as newer so its 330 HP makes it a very sporty car.

As for the AWD question:

AWD will not help you on ice unless you want to go UP the hill. And even then...

The only real time AWD is helpful is: Power on on hard packed snow or fresh rain slick roads*. For deep snow what matters most is ride height. Do you drive up to go skiing a lot over snow covered roads? AWD will be helpful to get a few extra MPH out of the drive. But even then tires are the great equalizer.

But it won't save you from ice on a hill. Nothing will save you from ice on a hill. If you're on a hill and its iced, you walk. If you need to go on a hill and the road is iced you go around.

*If its been raining for a while the AWD won't really help you since the road won't really be slick enough for normal cars to have much an issue.

For examples you can see the difference tires make in this video of an A6 going up a ski jump. Normal winter tires don't make it. Thin spiked snow tires go up all the way. AWD or FWD probably won't make much difference here. (note there is a cable so that if something does go wrong the car doesn't fly off the end of the jump)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvNAb4gA6bs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvNAb4gA6bs)

This is what happens to an AWD car on an icy hill when it goes ballistic. He probably has snow tires but it doesn't matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILDOqppQL-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILDOqppQL-U)

If you're a very good driver you can get out of these situations with AWD. But only if you're a very good driver. You're still going to have lots of problems on ice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrWBluNUEhA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrWBluNUEhA)

Yeah, the Ice on a hill comment was funny.

Nothing gives traction on ice. It's ice. You could have 100-wheel-drive and still go nowhere. It's fucking ice. Get skates and don't drive on it. ICE.

If you find you have a regular need to drive up or down a hill covered in ice, the only sensible solution is to pack up all your shit and move south. Way south.

Hth

Does it help if I mention that the place where I live isn't named "Lake in the HILLS" for nothing?  :why_so_serious:

I've been more than pleased to have AWD on a few occasions, and unless I can ever convince the husband to leave shitty Illinois, I'm sticking with the AWD if possible.

Those are speed bumps, not hills (says the guy who lives in an area where you can see grain elevators from 35 miles away at night.)  :why_so_serious:

My drive to work has multiple ridges and get snowed up and occasionally iced over.  Nothing saves you on ice, especially when you're going down 200-300' over some windy ridge.  4WD has been handy to get the truck unstuck or traction on one side when the rear wheels don't have it.  I'm pretty much in the "fuck it" mindset this coming winter, I'm not wrecking my car again to get to work when no one is there (the office NEVER shuts down, ever so you're expected to be there in any weather).

FWD is the best for snow/ice, and I say this as someone who learned to drive in Montana (we don't clear most of the roads up there, you drive on snowpack or you stay home). If I can't get up the hill on front wheel drive, I don't want to have to come back down, anyway.

--Dave

We're ok with the knowing how to drive in winter conditions, thanks. Having lived in a snow belt for 50 years or so.

There is no AWD 'question'. Nobody is saying FWD can't be good in snow.

On the other hand, having a foot of ground clearance, good tires and low gear 4WD has allowed me to drive in conditions neither AWD nor FWD would have helped. As I said, living on the Tug Hill trained me to be prepared. If it dumps a few feet of snow, I want to be able to hop in the truck and drive (and in fact it is my very favorite time to drive, with nobody on the roads and a couple of feet of snow to play in).

I think tomorrow is VW test night. She keeps talking about how 'big' the Crosstrek is, so I have a feeling she's going to get the Golf. She had one when she was a kid and always talks about it.

Gonna go GTI or just the Golf?

The Golf/GTI is actually bigger inside than the Crosstrek (my 2 door GTI fits 4 adult sized people pretty comfortably).

I left out a lot of details from the icy hill thing because this isn't a fucking blog and I have shit to do.  Perhaps not obvious, but I did manage to escape the valley (without sliding into the lake, too!) and did so via a gravel path.  The gravel path was almost a no-go.  I would not have been able to walk up the ice sheet.

I'll admit that I'm no expert, but the idea that being able to put any of my four tires on dirt/gravel or other tractionable surface might get me out of a jam is what appeals to me.  So, now it is time for someone to tell me that a single wheel getting traction on a 4WD vehicle won't do what I think it will.  Also I expect someone will tell me about "4WD" vs "AWD".

Power to all 4 wheels can help with traction (especially with a traction control system that can detect wheel spin) but so does the amount of weight over the wheels. I'm old enough to remember a time when front wheel drive cars were not the norm and people used all sorts of tricks at times to put more weight over the rear drive wheels to get more traction including sticking their kids in the trunk :awesome_for_real:

Compact front wheel drive cars inherently have a disproportionate amount of weight over the front tires which is why they inherently have more traction over the front tires than you normal rear wheel drive car will have over either set which is why they are usually better in situations where traction is important compared to most RWD cars and even some FWD/AWD cars.

Edit: assuming the cars are roughly the same weight

There is essentially no difference between 4WD and AWD. The technical difference is that 4WD has a transfer case instead of a center differential. This would have made a difference in years past when cars were more likely to be running fully open differential but doesn't anymore(also one of the reasons why FWD and RWD aren't so much worse than AWD and also why your FWD car doesn't oversteer nearly as much as an older model) as almost all cars will have a lockable or maximum ratio center differential.

A transfer case is basically a transmission instead of a differential, and they usually run at some (or a number of ) fixed ratios. This hard locks the power distribution between front and rear wheels. A differential produces varying levels of power distribution between front and rear wheels. This is ideal when driving on full traction surfaces because turning will require that one front wheel travel further than the other. Which requires that the front wheels in general receive a different power load. Which requires a differential. (FWD cars understeer because power on tends to push the wheels to have the same velocity).

So a 4WD car should generally be driven in 2WD mode unless you get stuck and an AWD car will be driven in AWD all the time.

Buuut the difference is, in the end, pretty immaterial, and very few cars use a true 4WD system anymore (mainly trucks and off road vehicles) and your user manual will how to use your car anyway.

I remember making people sit on the hood of my Rabbit to get traction  :grin: Of course everyone around here with a pickup knows to load it up with sandbags in the winter. Weight over the rear wheels + traction to get you out of a slick spot.

GTI is out because $$$. We do work at a library, folks. She's keeping it under $30k, but wants a long feature list. So it's about tarting up a lower model rather than taking a stripped-down version of a better model.

When i got my car in 2007 i ended up with the Mazda 3 mainly because the Golf and co handled like boats and i couldn't feel the road. (This was also when they were cheaper than the Golf and Co). Either can be had under 30k with a decent feature list and good enough HP.  Looking at the 2016 models it looks to me like their pretty evenly priced if you want the big rims and sport springs on the Golf(not sure how much that would help). The big problem on the Mazda is that you can't get the 2.5L engine on the trimmed down versions.

With the GTI you're pay a lot of money for the extra 30 HP. Drop down to the regular and you can probably get all the gizmo's you want without breaking the bank. Look at the base Golf or the Wolfsburg and compare to the Mazda 3 S GT. They're essentially the same car as far as i can tell. You can get either for 25 grandish and save 1.1k when you get a manual.

Those look to be your only real options given what you've outlined

She got a Golf TSI SE. Sales guy took us into the country...onto the road I grew up on and learned to drive on and test cars on when I was a kid and drive madly drunk on....she drove up and I drove back, dude was a little nervous but grinning ear to ear. I put it in the sport mode and tore it up and down the hills and s curves, I know the road better than any road on the planet :) I only made 90 on the little straightaway, though, balked a bit because an 18-wheeler somehow appeared in the other direction and it's a narrow road. Didn't want to hit sand and end up in the trees.

Was tough finding stock configured properly, only ones loaded the way she wanted it were black leatherette and fuck that ass burning nonsense. Dumped the driver assist stuff and got everything else she wanted, to the tune of $23k (not including trade). Some real nice pre-tax cash back going on over there. $3500 cash back for the Golf. And we got it from the dealer here in town, which is a big bonus.

Congratulations!  Hope it serves you guys well.  :)

I hear ya on the leather.  Looks great, but pretty much the worst option from a practical standpoint.

Leather is a lot easier to clean. Fabric just gets gross over time.

This.  Properly cared for, leather seats outlast cloth by a significant margin.

All it took was one crayon melted into my nice cloth seats to change my mind. Seatcovers or leather. If you've got animals or kids  it's really not even a choice.

Black leather(ette) seats in the summer? Eh, no thanks.

Fwiw, I like my FJ's synthetic seats and utter lack of carpeting in the entire vehicle. I don't understand why carpet is even still a thing in vehicles, it should've gone out of style with bathroom carpet.

The faux leather that VW uses is really not very nice. It is closer to early 1980s vinyl than leather.

Cheap sound dampening.

And insulation in general.

Yeah, that'd do it.  No kids/pets + Florida, so I'm coming at it from a different angle.

Bare minimum go front wheel drive on snow/ice. If you can get AWD or 4 Wheel drive those are better yet but I only once in my life owned a rear wheel drive car in wisconsin and it was damn near un-drivable for a few months of the year. Even packed with 8 bags of sand in the back that thing would have its back end shoot out unexpectedly on you if you hit glare ice and was totally unsafe at highway speeds with ice/snow.

Is this a fine place for me to complain about tire models changing such that I have to re-learn a bunch of shit instead of just ordering the same ones that I already have?

This entire forum is a place to air our first world problems, and this thread is about cars so sure.  :why_so_serious:

They did? Are they easier to understand now or worse than before?

The numbers are the same, but I had already done a lot of research and chose the Eagle GT tire.  I've been pleased with them and assumed I'd just be able to order a new set, but no.  They do not exist.  There is a GT II but it won't fit my car and appears to be for trucks.  There is a Eagle Sport All-Season that will fit, and I guess I'll go with that, but the price is lower by about $50-60 per tire and I'm suspicious that a 50k-mile tire will be too hard.

I'm having major first world problems with my car shopping. My wife wants a backup camera and parking sensors, because her family are all awful at parking in regular parking spots. I've survived OK without this on my car, but it seems to be a deal breaker for her. Also, she seems to be keen on parking sensors.

Problem is that this pushes a sub 40K car into the 45-50k range.  This is doable, but more than I would like to spend.

So, time to look at stuff I wasn't considering before. It seems to be a lot easier to get all of the safety nonsense in Subaru than an Audi. But, it seems like all of the non-luxury sedans have really weak 4 cylinder engines, so a 6 is probably going to be a must. Used would be an option, but it seems like nobody ordered the tech packages (where you usually see the safety stuff) in cars that I like.

Fun. I don't mind car shopping/test driving, but it just takes forever.

Fuck Subarus. Jesus, they ride like bricks.

It's funny, every single dealer had nothing but nice things to say about them. Nobody would directly compare or disparage anything other than just "it's not a luxury car, you will notice this".

I liked the Crosstrek we rented in Oregon.  The engine was a underwhelming, however.  It seemed to struggle on climbs.

Just FWIW, I got my Audi A6 for low 40's after it was returned from a short lease (about a year) - only 7k miles and 6 more years on the warranty when I picked it up. It has all that stuff and a supercharged V6!

I didn't know they still made cars without backup cameras.

My G37 was actually a Enterprise rental before I got it.  YMMV.

Little bigger than I want. I'd like to stay comfortably midsize. There is a 2016 in Phoenix with sub 6k miles on it.  It's a 2.0L 4, however.

The A4 was just a lot of fun to drive. Only thing I liked more was the IS200t. For a 4 it really hauled ass. But the IS's back seat seems a tortuously small.  I don't imagine my son shrinking in the near future.

Welcome to my life shopping with my wife as well.  And it really seems the majority of newer cars aren't ordered with tech packages.  All I could find at our local dealers were premium stereos, but things like ventilated seats, backup cameras, etc weren't included.  And it's not like any of these things were major expenses when the cars were new (like $300-500 each) it just appears the dealer order guy didn't check off the boxes and people tend to buy cars as-is off the lot rather than shop for options.  My dad wanted the lane shift indicators with integrated camera that new newer Honda Accords offer (this is neat) and when he went to a dealer, they only had 2 out there in like a 6 state area.

I can see not ordering navigation since it's still usually a stupidly priced item ($2-3k) but things like backup cameras not being ordered are annoying.  And when you start getting into the higher end of cars like Audis, the price really does get stupid pretty fast.

New Cadillac shifter is balls.

Those lane camera things are nice, my dad has one on his Honda.

I don't know what the hell I'm going to do when it's time to replace the FJ. It was head and shoulders above everything else unless I wanted to spend $$$.

Btw, she's loving teh heck out of the Golf (she got a TSI SE).

Do what I do: keep it running as long as possible and when it's time to replace it due to rust or a wreck, buy another one from out west. It won't be as easy as going to the local dealer but it's what you want and it's easy enough to do.

I really debated special ordering for the Adjustable Cruise Control and Lane Shifting, but settled for 'just' the Blind Spot monitors. Backup camera is nifty, even if I don't use it often.

It's AMAZINGLY useful when I do need it, though. It seems a lot of the newer parking lots are being built with narrower parking aisles so you have to back into the lane behind you. The 25-year-old Meijer is easy to get in and out of, the 3-month old Menards I NEED the camera so I don't crash into the other row. very weird.

Also helps with regular parking. You can verify you're pulled-through enough by just hitting reverse and making sure the red line is aligned with the stripe.

I'm debating this right now. On the one hand, it's got just over 45k for a 2008, and it's in great shape. On the other hand, Upstate NY; so winter salt, and rust. No avoiding it, really.

I kind of want to start replacing underbody parts slowly, do a bit each spring. But the frame, at some point it's going to be $$$. And a used one in acceptable condition is going to run $20k, most I've seen are beat to shit.

Plan B is to buy a decent sedan and keep the FJ as a winter rat after that. Then milk the shit out of the sedan as a 3 season car.

I'm at 160K on my 2008, but washing it weekly every winter has kept rust away at least. It'd be in perfect shape if it wasn't that every year in Arizona some old person manages to hit the rear quarter lightly. Every. Fucking. Year. Never enough damage to do more than bitch, but the plastic wheel well guards are looking shabby. I'm hoping to retire it to fun use only at the end of next year.

Rear camera is pretty helpful if you drive a car instead of a Homermobile of a SUV.

Honestly I'm rather upset that Silicon Valley is Silicon-valley-ing all over cars now.  It's bad enough that they are ruining IT.

Yes.

Is interfacepergers a term?

No, but UX is.

Used a car buyer to buy my new car. Told dealer that showed me cars that I used a car buyer. Dealer sends really mean text messages. Now I feel bad.  :| I don't like people being mad at me.

Still love my car. I guess I'll just I'll have to endure dirty looks from afar when I take my car in for service.

I mean, I get the anger. It's just my money and my time that I value more at this point. I guess I'm an asshole, but all the guy really did was sit in a car while I drove it.

I don't know what a car buyer is, but you are completely in the right to tell that dealer to find a new job since he clearly hates his current one.

The proper dealer response would have been "I would really like to earn your business, if you can get me their price and your selection I can beat it by $XX" where XX is greater than $1000 not "youse a jerk." I've tried to get dealers to do SOMETHING to try and earn my business and so many of them are just "here's the car I want to sell you and here's the price, I'm not budging" and then I end up walking.  Followed by text messages\emails for a week asking why I'm not interested anymore. Car dealers are shits.

And unless it's a warranty repair, screw going to the dealer for work.  Their techs in many cases are completely incompetent in such a way I'd not trust them to change my oil.

It's a service that buys the car for you: negotiates price, gets the loan, buys your trade, etc. You don't have to haggle price or sit down for hours in the dealer while they play on their cellphones before telling you they can lower the price by 500, but the clearcoat cancels that savings out. I got within the KBB price range, better than the dealer was letting on they'd be able to do, and the whole process took 30 minutes when it was time to get my car. Both times I had bought new previously, I wanted to die at the end of the process.

The dealers were all pretty much the same. There wasn't anything that made me like one over the other. Knowledge/experience/age didn't make a difference in the experience. I spent a ton of time looking at this shit on the internet. More than I spent waiting for a test drive or listening to them trying to sell me something I said I wasn't buying that day.


I get a couple free maintenance visits. Otherwise there's a local German car repair place that's pretty decent.

I have had great experiences with a car broker. When I bought my truck they found the best price for the color/options I wanted, put tint on the windows, and delivered it to my house. Took 15 mins to fill out the paperwork (including financing) and they drove my trade-in away. Talk about painless.

I thought you wrote 'talk about pantsless'.

Oh man that's what I want.  Like, next time I need a car.

Actually I need someone to take my car for an oil change and new tires.  I also need someone to give me a haircut at my office or home.

Hmm no I think I wore pants, but it was a close call!

When I bought my ST, I had already told them I was using X-Plan pricing and which offers they had in play ($2000 on the hood and 0% 60-month financing) that I wanted to use.  They already knew that I knew where all of the similar cars in the area were and that I was perfectly happy to take my business elsewhere.

Process took under an hour all-in and half of that was just them doing the pre-delivery spit and polish on my new car.

I decided on tires: Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season

Good for you!  Must have been a bitch negotiating winter traffic on steel rims like that.

The Eagle GTs are actually showing a bit less traction, so yes.  Unless I'm somehow imagining it, which is completely possible.  Trying to work a deal on the purchase+install.

The goodyear Eagles I have on my Jeep Wrangler are great in dry conditions but TERRIBLE in the rain.  If you feel like you're getting less traction, it may not be your imagination.

I assumed it was because as the wear increases, the material changes.  If it is real.  Could be surface conditions, been raining a lot lately after 3-4 months of no rain.

In any case I'm due for tires because of wear.

I will never understand why people insist on backing into spots at the grocery store and such - isn't it easier to back out of the spot, where you have more space in the aisle?

The worst are people backing into spots in crowded parking garages - fuck those people. I really notice it in Atlanta, for whatever reason. Especially big obnoxious trucks.

People who can't backup a rig, shouldn't. I do it, because I can successfully back up just fine, and at the grocery store I never know when some idiot ass is going to try to walk behind me while I'm backing out of a spot. I prefer to have clear fields of view, and sometimes it's hard to keep track of areas without getting a spinal injury. I just have zero faith in my fellow human.

But yes, parking garages are a different story. I don't feel the foot traffic pressure there.

I originally did not care one way or the other for rear view camera but after a few close calls with neighbor kids I don't think I would buy another car without one. Don't need it all the time but having a nice bumper level view of exactly whats behind me probably saved a couple kids from some injuries.

I tried backing into parking spots and I can see the appeal but it wasn't adding enough mojo to my day to make it worth my while to get good at it.  I do have a backup camera, and my wife's car will buzz your ass if you are in reverse and someone is coming from the right or left, so I don't need to back in.

Parking garages, I back in. Especially if there is a concert, don't be the asshole making everyone wait for you to back out of the spot when there is a line of cars to the roof.

Sadly most garages around here are angled parking so no chance at this. But I do agree.

Though... who the hell parks in a garage to go to a concert?? Uber that shit!  :awesome_for_real:

I just stay away from concerts. :geezer:

If you drive a pickup truck or other long vehicle, it's very difficult to pull into a parking spot face forward.  One of my vehicles is a 2016 Dodge Ram Crew Cab, which is longer than most parking spaces.  The turning radius is too wide when it's moving forward.    (I still love the truck)

I don't mind a truck parking in the back half of the lot taking two end-to-end spaces. It needs to physically fit in somewhere. It's the trying to park in the closest spot and taking up multiple spots that bugs me.

Part of it is my feelings about parking in general. I'm a relatively fit and healthy person, I don't mind walking extra yards (possibly why I'm fit and healthy). There are a lot of older folks or people with issues in general that need to park as close as possible, and I think it's a dick move to take a close spot and make some poor old lady walk farther than you. So the idea of taking multiple spots just bugs me that much more.

And that's not even the mega dick move of people getting handicap tags when they don't really need them. I was still parking near the back when I had a broken toe and walked with a cane, because it's not a big deal and I'm not selfish about things.

With the backup camera, it's dead simple to back my truck into any parking space with a little practice.  The problem is that most drivers are idiots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs

On a separate note, if anyone has any questions on "How a car dealer actually works" my wife does the books for a New Car dealer so I can bounce any questions off her.  Or, if you want to know about Subarus, my son is a Subaru Master tech and I race a Subaru WRX in SCCA Rallycross events on the weekends. 

The most common question I get is "Do I need All wheel drive or 4 Wheel drive in the winter?" The answer is,  it's a nice to have but not a must have.  What you really need is Snow tires, regardless of vehicle.  I cannot stress how much of a difference Snow Tires make.


Here is a great video the demonstates this.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaximkaQxo

The Rear Wheel drive BMW (with the terrible exhaust) blows away the 4WD on Summer Tires.  Also, while I run studded snow tires on the WRX, you don't really need them unless you do a lot of driving in ice storms or on frozen lakes.

OK.  If someone currently driving a G37 wanted a new Subaru, what is a comparable model?

Closest would be a Legacy, and that's not very close.

While I don't disagree about the importance of good tires, that seems ridiculous. Unless there is glare ice or those are racing slicks, there's no reason that 4WD shouldn't be at least moving up the hill.

It's on Summer tires, not All season tires.  All Seasons (referred to as 'No Season') are a little bit better then Snow tires, but they are still terrible.

I'll continue using the No Season tires since the black ice only shows up once or twice every few years for a couple days at a time.

I really think it's up to the individual to decide based on where they live and how far they drive.  My wife works a mile away so I just put No-Seasons on her car.

Here is a good compare between all seasons and snow tires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svkZDRoouYU

Weight distribution goes a bit to aid good tires. Empty pick-up with snow tires and RW-drive is still going to have a hard time of it comparatively to a FW-drive car on summer tires.

Don't misunderstand, I'm convinced that the tires make a lot of difference.  I just don't have the use-case.  99.9% of the time, I need either rain tires or dry tires.  I don't know if ice tires are a thing but I only would have needed them three years ago during Snowmageddon 2014.  Yeah we still call it that.  Also, I made it home anyway on stock tires on a Cadillac SRX.  Other people had problems.

The BMW also has traction control (DSC) and is able to adjust braking to individual wheels and reduce engine fuel to minimize wheel slippage.

The Subaru Forester XT definitely has traction control.  I'm not a BMW guy, so I don't know about the M3.

The M3 has traction control, but it has purposely been held short so you can still get some wheel spin/drift on corners. I would expect the Forester to have better traction control with its AWD.

Which is why comparison vids that don't use the same vehicle are always suspect.  They're pushing a point and not providing rigid evidence.

It's a test for Snow tires on a RWD vs Summer tires on an AWD to show that Snow tires are more important than AWD.  That's it.

Don't use your foot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro_iuJHv9hI

If you absolutely have to travel on ice, chains are the way to go. You used to be able to get your tires "studded", little rivets that would grab onto ice, but I think the liability suits did away with that.

--Dave

You can still get studded snow tires, but their use is regulated by your state laws. 

Studs are legal in Georgia, if the roads are icy.  Do I want to buy a set and store them?  Not really.

If the roads are icy anywhere in the south, stay home.

It would be a complete waste of money to buy studded tires in Georgia.

Here in Idaho (three feet of snow on the ground locally atm) it's legal to use them Oct. 1 thru April 30, and you'd want to get them put on early in October to avoid the annual mob at the tire shop after the first freeze.

A few miles west in Washington, it's only legal Nov. 1 to April 1.  Although the cops in eastern washington aren't too rabid about the tickets in late october/april.

Right now on vacation in Bend, OR. The type of tires don't matter. Having your own personal curiosity rover might though. Streets are turrble washboards of varying levels of compacted snow from 0-3" thick. And tomorrow it is going to rain!

Oregon doesn't get enough snow that it makes s nose for cities or counties to have a snow removal plan,never mind equipment.  It's strange for those of us from the Midwest who are actually at lower latitudes it there it is.  You get chains and drive through it for the few days it's there in a normal year.

However thanks to climate shift and possibly El Niño this January isn't normal. It's been fun watching my sister and voodoo lily loose their minds because schools have been closed since December.

Maybe there is a "Buying a new spellchecker, need some advice" thread.

My thumb always hits space instead of "n". Sometimes I'm careful but more often nope.

I'm just kidding - hey, you're alright!

(http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/22500000/Rodney-Dangerfield-rodney-dangerfield-22587510-247-355.jpg)

Hey everybody, we're all gonna get maid!

It might need its own thread, but why would anyone use their thumb for the N key?  Mind slightly blown.

If you are a two handed smartphone typist you use your thumbs for every letter.

 :ye_gods: :ye_gods:

Swype was developed for a reason.

Didn't occur to me that he might have done it on a smartphone.  Come on Merusk, solve this mystery!

Of course. 90% of my posts are on a smartphone anymore. What do you use in the shitter?

I tried swype, it doesn't ork for me. Too slow.

Yeah, ditto, can't stand it.  Nothing is as fast as two thumb typing.

+1 for not liking Swype. Or autocorrect/complete, for that matter.

There is a joke about "wipe" to be made here, but I can't quite put it together.  But anyway, I don't post from the shitter.  I play Galaxy of Heroes, like any respectable nerd might do.

Does F13 have an app that works?

I love Swype or rather the integrated solution of the Google keyboard. Might take a week getting used to it but I really don't want to go back to normal typing.

Swype sounds awesome but I like using voice dictation sometimes and apparently you can't use that with it.

Sorry I meant an app like tapatalk.

The "original" Swype has an ASR system integrated and with Google you also have that option, so nothing holding you back.

I'm using the google keyboard with swype and voice functions. You tap typers disturb me.

I just get irritated and swear at anyone who wants to have a conversation over text messaging. Either call me or keep it to simple exchanges of info. And by anyone I mean my fiancee.

Why are Firestone tires so much cheaper than other brands?  I assume it is not a good reason.

Probably because they were part of the whole Ford Explorer rollover thing. Also, Firestone is the more "discount" line of tires and Bridgestone the more high end marketed against Michelin and Goodyear.

I bought BF Goodrich tires for my GTI after reading a bunch of reviews saying they were much better than other tires, and they were the cheapest price by like 10%. The OEM tires were like 40% more a piece and they were crappy compared to my "cheap" tires.

It all depends on the engineering involved and the material the tire is made out of, and what the rating\sizing of the tire is.  Some Firestones are pretty pricey, but a lot are not. 

My current set of coopers has lasted half the mileage of my bridgestones (same size/ratings/alleged mileage) Never again.

The Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 look great on paper but are only $79 on the web site, which just makes me suspicious.

About stock tires, I've definitely seen that new tires that replace stock are WAY more expensive.  Not sure if this is due to engineering but more likely due to people want to just buy what they already have instead of doing research.  It's possible that you'll save the $400 in research effort since tires are confusing and everyone lies.

This morning I think I'm going to get the Indy 500 set (~$320!) and if they suck I'll figure out which Goodyear I want and get those as replacements.

I've been happy with my Michelins and as a bonus the tire shop here is a decent general shop, so I'm doing my maintenance work there now, too.

Helps that the first visit they fixed an alignment issue the dealership couldn't even detect despite me telling them for years (I could tell because of uneven wear).

Looks pretty good to me, the Tire Rack reviews are generally a good indication, though there haven't been a large number of miles reported on these tires yet.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=UHP via @tire_rack

After finally ditching the Pirrelis that I kept having problems with I've been really happy with my Goodyears. My car weighs approximately 9 million pounds so I've been impressed with how they have held up.

I'm planning on having the Indy 500 set installed on Friday, so I'll know soon enough.  The Eagle GTs were great but lately are getting slippery.  Also I have a screw in the left front. :why_so_serious:

Never cheap out on anything between you and the ground. Tires, shoes, bed etc.

You get what you pay for.  A good set of tires will give you better fuel economy, better ride comfort, less noise, better handling and better braking distances. Especially on wet roads.

Check out a site like 10/10 tires for sets that will fit your vehicle and they will probably have a shit ton of user reviews. That being said I'm a pretty solid proponent of michelins. 

I forgot about that site, thanks.  A quick search reminds me why buying a common vehicle is sometimes worthwhile. All my tires are listed under $200. I can only imagine that's because it's a Camry and has so damn many cars on the road.

After over 300 miles since the installation on Friday, the Indy 500 are very nice.

Good tires really are not as expensive as we imagine they should be. I paid less that $160 a piece installed for my W-rated, well reviewed tires on my GTI. (BF Goodrich COMP-2 A/S)

The commonality does matter though. I recall paying over 500 for the cheap option on my first car. It was a caprice classic and the size was odd as I recall.

Certainly, but as you mentioned, you own a Toyota and Japanese car makers tend to be fairly standard with their sizing on a lot of things. For all we know, in Japan there is actually a set of regulations dictating possible tire/wheel sizes. It is, after all, more efficient to standardize and Japanese are almost as freaky about efficiency as Germans.

Are you guys trying to tell me that Firestones suck?

Suck?
Firestone yes. Bridgestone no.

So far so good, and reviews were decent.  I'll let you know if I have a blowout or something.

Just make sure you keep them under inflated  :why_so_serious:

Same company too.

In slightly related news, I'm too busy to research what to do about poor SiriusXM reception.  I read that there is bad frequency isolation in the receivers which sounds like a new unit rather than a firmware update.

Considering you live in the boondocks I'd put money on new unit.

Though XM seems to be shit in cities or around large antennae of any sort.  Skyscrapers block me when I'm downtown, the newest bridge overpass up the road from me that's only 5 lanes blocks me if I'm within 200' of it, and the WLW tower? Forget about signal within an 1/8 mile of it either way.  I'm considering giving it up after this year, I'm not getting the value from it.

Good point.

SiriusXM works great in the boonies and I don't actually live in them even living ~25 miles from ATL center.  I range through the entire NW quadrant of Metro ATL and it is obviously some sort of interference.  Whether it is only T-Mobile or other things, I just know that some units are better than others in avoiding it.  I also can't stand ATL FM radio and would rather just listen to road noise.

I disagree with this completely, and vastly prefer to communicate via text than a phone call.

Especially on the bus in public. I hate talking on the phone in public.

The way to manage public phone calls is to talk very loudly.  Hand waving is also an excellent indicator of how important you are.

Going back to before this was the "Tires and Cell Keyboards" thread ...

Has anyone used USAA's car buyer page?  I need a compact sedan, and was using the site to price Civics/Accords/Camrys.  Found lots of cars from small dealers that were obviously back from lease, and about $1500 cheaper than CarMax. 

The service description says "Dealers will do their best of match listed prices."  I don't want to drive 40 miles to a dealer to be told there's an additional 1-2K in lot fees and clearcoat bullshit.

I REALLY hate buying cars.

Here's what has worked well for me.

Use cars.com to find specific cars at larger dealerships.  I tend to look at cars that have been on the lot 30 days or more as the dealer wants to move these and will be willing to negotiate.

AVOID CarMax and the smaller, used-only lots.  I've never had a good experience nor gotten a good price from them.

About to go down this road myself this year. The old RSX-S got a little banged up and I am not hopeful the insurance company will even consider fixing a 14 year old car. So down the rabbit hole I must go.

I used USAA's service to price my Camry Hybrid and to get a prequalified loan. The dealer beat both the price and the loan offer when I was there, so I'm not sure if it helped or not. I was armed with information, though, so I count it as having helped. Be aware they aren't a true car-buying service where you just go in and sign papers and then are done. They're more of a prequalification and 'member discount offer' aggregator.

From what I recall, the lot fees were already included. The "Clearcoat bullshit" is not, and never is. If you don't want it just say no. These days you're in the room with the actual purchasing agent instead of the salesman when all that is happening, and he's less incentivized to push you into it than the salesman. He's also going to catch more shit if you walk out, so be firm in your denial of add-ons.

Some of the guys here use an actual car buying service. If you really, really hate car buying I'm sure they can recommend one. I think Abo, Yeg and Morat were the 3 talking about them earlier.

The only reason I was looking at CarMax was that they have the return in 48 hrs thing and several other buyer protections.  I'm willing to pay a small premium for that (and the total lack of pressure tactics).

When I said small dealers, wasn't talking about the kind that are a converted gas station with 5-8 beaters out front (that also do title loans, conveniently enough!).  Just not one of the huge, mega-lots that constantly advertise on TV.  Big enough that they aren't obviously sketchy.  But yeah, after checking, the dealer I was referred to thru USAA has a D+ BBB rating.  So maybe a larger dealer isnt such a bad idea ...

I haven't used a car buying service but it sounds like something I'd enjoy.

Ah, it was Rasix. I knew it was a green name and you all look the same.  :why_so_serious:

Talked to my mechanic, and they said since Hondas loose so little value in the first 3 years, I might do better to just buy new.  They also recommended a Honda Fit instead of a used Civic.  Less emasculating than a mini-van, I guess.  They only seem to come in vibrant primary colors, tho ...

And, yeah, Merusk, a car buyer is definitely right up my alley.  Would love to hear about some good ones from anyone who cares to share the experience.

Every single one of my girlfriend's friends has a fit. They are a sub-civic. Actually, the best I can come up with it they took a civic and decided to try and make an element out of it. It has a ton of room inside when you flip and fold everything around. But outside of that? No thanks. I'm leaning towards a Buick Regal or a Verano if I can afford it. I need something more comfortable now...especially driving to the parent's (hers and mine).

I really don't care if it's a "girl-car"  Up until last week I was driving a '96 BMW 318ti -- it was about as macho as a Mini Cooper.  Also, my daughter is getting her license in a few more months, so I wouldn't have to listen to the pissing and moaning about a "boring dad-car."  Having a ton of cargo space is good; I'm done with not being able to bring stuff home from Lowe's.  And if it gets good enough gas mileage for daily use, AND will last 10 years/200,000 miles ... I'm sold

Oh it's not just her female friends. I mean literally almost all her friends here have a Fit - probably 60/40 girls to guys. It is damn weird. Hauling stuff is ok, but forget anything long (+5ft). And for the record, I am not put off by them at all... just not my style. They are a honda so the powertrain will run forever and a day if taken care of with regular maintenance - everything else though for me screams economy car.

Ive been seriously looking at the new Civic Hatchbacks. Great reviews all around. Tons of safety features, super practical with a ton of cargo space and great gas mileage to boot. (also I really love the new look, but some people hate them) 

This being said I would be financing a car so getting a new car I can get like 1.99% whereas buying used would be significantly higher rate, With this in mind I figure I mas as well go new.

If you are just looking for a good sedan, reliable, good on gas etc and you can afford to buy it straight out, I'd seriously consider a 4-5 year old corolla or possibly even an Hyundai Elantra. With a Corolla you know it will last you for ever and never give you any grief. You will also be able to get something for it when you decide to sell it or trade it in some time down the road. The Hyundai will also last you (they have been awesome value for the last ~5 years or so) but due to the old Hyundai rep you may not be able to resell for much down the road. 

Huh.. I was confused at you saying "ton of cargo space" but looking at a subcompact. Just did some research on the Fit and that "magic" seat is nice! 52.7 cu ft when everything's folded is amazing for a car that size. The distance between the wheel wells is still only 40" though, so no sheets of material.

Have you considered a crossover like the Subaru Crosstrek, Mazda CX-3 or Honda HR-V?  They're all little more expensive than the fit (19-25k vs 15-21 for the fit) but definitely larger base cargo. (16.6cu ft for the fit, 18 Mazda, 32 Honda, 23 Subaru)

8' 2x4's fit just fine (we hauled 6 8' 2x6's in one) if you can fold the front seat down and rest one end on the passenger-side dash. The rear seats fold down separately, so we could have 2 adults in the car (driver and cargo herder). Not wide enough for sheets of plywood/drywall, though.

Great for Ikea and Costco runs. There's so much cargo room that you can easily exceed the weight limits before you get close to filling up the space if you're hauling gardening or yard supplies.

The driver's seat/steering column may not be very adjustable in some models, so be wary of that unless you're completely average in your height and arm/torso/leg ratios.

The Fit is definitely not a luxury car, but it's very competitively priced, very fuel efficient, and has tons of cargo space.

Figure out what kind of car you want and then call a car broker. They will find you the best car for the best price with the options you want. Best car buying experience, unless you are buying a Porche (and even then .. ).

I used AAAs car buying service and it was great. Could I maybe have gotten a better deal if I walked into the car dealership with their offer? Perhaps. Then they would have found a way to extract the same amount or greater through haggling (aka f'ing you over with addons "hey, it's already there"). When my car arrived, it was sub 30 minutes of paperwork, and I was driving away. I got exactly what I wanted (options, color, etc) with the minimum amount of hassle.

I did get a mean text from the guy I did the test drives with. So, that was interesting. I just didn't want to deal with dealers. It's godamned torture. I don't fare well in those types of negotiations.

That sounds like exactly what I need right now.  Money is a touch tight so I want an economy car. Also a low-to-medium chance my teen-aged daughter will have her first wreck in it, so no point getting something super nice.  

I have 75-100 miles of driving every day, so gas mileage dictates sub-compact*.  I'm not hauling the materials for a new deck, but being able to get more than two bags of potting soil and an extension cord would be nice!

As far as a concierge car buyer, Auto Authority and CarBargains are the only two I can find that seem to have a national footprint.  Searching for "Car buying services" yields a bunch of folks who want to haul off old cars.  Everyone else seems to be affiliated with a dealer or limited to one large city.


*I've thought about a hybrid, but the upfront cost, plus the looming spectre of battery replacement drove me away.

Search for 'auto broker'. They usually serve a general area (eg: Denver-metro) and are not national brands.

I've been looking at small cars and Honda apparently hasn't spent any money on R&D for the last 6 years.

The i30, Imprezza and Mazda 3 are what I'm looking at, probably ending with the i30 with the Turbocharger.

Wife loves her cx3, as I stated. Try it out though, you might find it cramped. It's got a smaller cockpit setup than other cars in its class.  I also find the location of the Nav display to be offputting.

The Fit is a genius little car.  If you dig it, go for it.

A common mistake people make is over-estimating the importance of gas mileage.

The difference in cost between a 22 MPG car and a 30 MPG car is about 10 dollars a week.

My car gets ~18 mpg and when I did the math comparing to a 30 mpg car, I found that I was eager to pay the difference.

Have to agree with slog, though it really depends on your mileage needs. I have just over 48k miles on my 9 year old truck, so... mileage not a very important statistic for me.

I'm with Yegolev on this though.  My commute is 35 miles one way, so my car getting 20mpg on a good day sucks.  Even if gas is cheap now, having to fill up once a week (or slightly less if I do anything else in addition to going to work) still sucks.  Mileage is a primary factor for the next vehicle, to the point where I'm fine with paying for a hybrid.  I'm currently leaning towards a Rav4 version, but OTOH, I really happen to like the Kia Soul and while it doesn't have a hybrid version, the mpg on it's own is just fine.  Mostly, I just don't like sedans and prefer smallish crossovers instead, so getting a decent mpg rating is important to me, personally.

Fill-up time also has a cost. If I have to fill up one less time every 2 weeks I've gained 10-20 minutes or more, depending on how crowded the pumps are and how out-of-the way the trip to the station is.

Cars with bigger tanks are awesome. My A6 gets 450 miles to the tank at ~19 MPG for my normal driving.

Getcher Kia if like, but just a heads up, their engine is really persnickety about oil. Make sure you change it regularly, and use quality stuff. Their variable valve system is a lil clunky and hates to be starved of oil, either by gunking or neglect.

If I had a garage with power I'd sign a 3-year lease on a Volt in a minute.

I'm really eyeballing that goddamn Tesla 3 as the eventual replacement for my 2004 hybrid Civic.  For a while I was thinking parking it in my garage for charging would be a pain, due to my garage being barely big enough to fit a car into, and then I realized it has that "valet" feature where it'll get itself in and out of the garage for you.   :drill:

There are two Superchargers in the ATL, so I'll need to wait a bit on a Tesla.

Also I think I phrased it poorly when I meant to say that I'm eager to pay for extra fuel.  Because I like my car to go when I press the pedal.  Sparing the math, I would spend about $9.60 per day on gas if it was $3/gallon if I just do a normal, shortest commute.  Driving something that gets 30mpg, it would be more like $5.70 per day.  I'm fine paying $3.90 a day for a spritely drive.

I have a model 3 on preorder.

While my garage says its for 2 cars, it really isnt. I also dont get want to get rid of the new whip. Tesla will likely be street parked.

People need to stop calling them '2 car garages' when they are clearly '1 1/2 car garages'. Pet peeve in our house hunt, because up here a garage isn't optional.

Then again, I don't know how people deal with a single lane driveway.

I went from a beat up Ford Explorer (like 14mpg on a good day) to a Prius back in 2009. Which averages about 40mpg.

Since then I've placed 125k miles on it. And had one single repair, for 400 bucks. So 8900 gallons versus 3,125.

At 2 bucks a gallon, I've saved...about 11,500 bucks on mileage.

And also, I enjoyed the car. :)