Japan [Tag: Fucked]

[NiX]

I have a horrible feeling he didn't.  As the comments point out, in the upper right it says "Live"  so that could have been taped and transmitted just before the videographer's death.

The news was live. The footage wasn't.

[Murgos]

I thought this would help people visualize what's going on.

[apocrypha]

Some decent reporting/summing up of other sources going on at The Register (although Lewis Page is a bit of a military wingnut and very outspokenly pro-nuclear):

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/16/fukushima_wednesday/

If spent fuel rods are left exposed long enough they will become so hot as to suffer damage, though this takes some time. Edano stated this morning that efforts to get water into the pool are to begin shortly using pumps on the ground, an earlier plan to drop it from helicopters having been abandoned.
Edano said it was important to add water gradually "as there are safety concerns" with dumping a large amount in at once. This would indicate that the rods are believed to be exposed and hot, and a steam explosion could result from a sudden massive water dump.

Asked if it was possible for the spent rods to restart a powerful reaction of the sort seen in a reactor core - which would make it very hard to cool them effectively in the storage pool - Edano stated that this is not a realistic risk.

Also, I don't know if this link has been posted before or not, but MIT Nuclear Science & Engineering are posting regular updates with analysis at the same time:

http://mitnse.com/

[Murgos]

Here is the 2:00pm (~12:00 hours ago) March 16th press release from TEPCO detailing by reactor the current status and previous events to this point:

   

Press Release (Mar 16,2011)
Impact to TEPCO's Facilities due to Tohoku-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake (as of 2:00PM)


Below is the status of TEPCO's major facilities that suffered from the
Tohoku-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake that occurred at 2:46PM, March 11th 2011.
*new items are underlined

[Nuclear Power Station]
Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station:
 Units 1 to 3: shutdown due to earthquake
 Units 4 to 6: outage due to regular inspection at the occurrence of
               earthquake

*The national government has instructed to evacuate for those local
 residents within 20km radius of the site periphery and to remain
 indoors for those local residents within 30km radius of the site
 periphery.

*Since the value of radioactive materials (iodine, etc) at the site
 (outside) measured by monitoring car exceeded the ordinary level,
 it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in article 15,
 clause 1 occurred (Extraordinary increase of radiation dose at site
 boundary).
 - 4:17 pm, March 15th at the main gate of the site
 - 11:05 pm, March 15th at the main gate of the site

* Unit 1
 The explosive sound and white smoke was confirmed near Unit 1 after
 the big quake occurred at 3:36pm, March 12th. We have started sea
 water injection at 8:20 pm and then boric acid into the reactor.

*Unit 2
 At 1:25 pm, March 14th, since the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System
 has failed, it was determined that a specific incident stipulated in
 article 15, clause 1 occurred (failure of reactor cooling function).
 At 5:17 pm, while the water level in the reactor reached the top of the
 fuel rod, we have restarted the water injection with the valve operation.
 At approximately 6:14 am, March 15th, the extraordinary sound was
 confirmed near the suppression chamber and the pressure inside the
 chamber decreased afterwards. It was determined that there is a
 possibility that something extraordinary happened in the suppression
 chamber. While sea water injection to the reactor continued, TEPCO
 employees and workers from other companies not in charge of injection
 work started tentative evacuation to a safe location.
 Sea water injection to the reactor is still under operation.

*Unit 3
 At 6:50 am, March 14th, while water injection to the reactor was under
 operation, the pressure in the reactor containment vessel increased to
 530 kPa. As a result, at 7:44 am, it was determined that a specific
 incident stipulated in article 15, clause 1 occurred (abnormal increase
 of the pressure of reactor containment vessel). Afterwards, the pressure
 has gradually decreased (as of 9:05 am, 450 kPa).

 At approximately 11:01 am, March 14th, an explosion followed by white
 smoke occurred near Unit 3. 4 TEPCO employees and 3 workers from other
 companies (all of them are conscious) have sustained injuries and they
 were already dispatched to the hospital by ambulances.

*Unit 4
 At approximately 6:00 am, March 15th, an explosive sound occurred and
 the damage in the 5th floor roof of Unit 4 reactor building was
 confirmed. At 9:38 am, the fire near the north-west part of 4th floor
 of Unit 4 reactor building was confirmed. At approximately 11:00 am,
 TEPCO employee confirmed that the fire was off.

 At approximately 5:45 am, a TEPCO employee discovered a fire at the
 northwest corner of the Nuclear Reactor Building. TEPCO immediately
 reported this incident to the fire department and the local government
 and prepared to extinguish the fire. However, during an inspection at
 approximately 6:15 am, TEPCO staff found no signs of fire.

[Murgos]

Also, I don't know if this link has been posted before or not, but MIT Nuclear Science & Engineering are posting regular updates with analysis at the same time:

http://mitnse.com/

Thanks, that is absolutely some of the best coverage I have seen.

[cironian]

   
It was determined that there is a possibility that something extraordinary happened in the suppression chamber.

That sentence makes it sound so nice. Like a portal into fairyland opened inside the reactor and magical ponies came out.

[apocrypha]

I think that's just the translation effect.

[Hawkbit]

   
It was determined that there is a possibility that something extraordinary happened in the suppression chamber.

That sentence makes it sound so nice. Like a portal into fairyland opened inside the reactor and magical ponies came out.

Eh, that's just the premise of the second season of Lost.

[apocrypha]

I thought this would help people visualize what's going on.

Can anyone give a rough idea of scale for that picture? I'm trying to visualise it and can't really get a handle on size.

[MournelitheCalix]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/company-says-new-power-line-that-could-ease-japan-nuclear-crisis-is-almost-ready/2011/03/16/ABfjxYc_story.html


might be some hope on the horizon.

[ghost]

Also, I don't know if this link has been posted before or not, but MIT Nuclear Science & Engineering are posting regular updates with analysis at the same time:

http://mitnse.com/

I think this site is a fraud.  
Linkage

Of course the main MIT NSE website links to it, so maybe not. 

[K9]

 

[Arthur_Parker]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

1837: Gregory Jaczko, head of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) has said there is no water left in the spent fuel pool in reactor four, adding: "We believe that radiation levels are extremely high." Mr Jaczko was speaking to Congress in Washington and it was not immediately clear where his information had come from.

Next few hours should be interesting, I think he's guessing, I don't see how they could have verified that.

[Murgos]

Can anyone give a rough idea of scale for that picture? I'm trying to visualise it and can't really get a handle on size.

It's about 4 stories.  There is another building built around the outside if it, those are what you see in the TV footage.

[Lucida]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

1837: Gregory Jaczko, head of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) has said there is no water left in the spent fuel pool in reactor four, adding: "We believe that radiation levels are extremely high." Mr Jaczko was speaking to Congress in Washington and it was not immediately clear where his information had come from.

Next few hours should be interesting, I think he's guessing, I don't see how they could have verified that.

And BBC live feed again:

"2027: Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency has said it is also concerned about the spent fuel storage pool inside the building housing reactor 3 at Fukushima Daiichi. The pools at both reactors 3 and 4 are reportedly boiling - there may not even be any water left in reactor 4's pool - and unless the spent fuel rods are cooled down, they could emit large quantities radiation. Radioactive steam was earlier said to be coming from reactor 3's pool. If cooling operations did not proceed well, the situation would "reach a critical stage in a couple of days", an agency official told the Kyodo news agency."

I would have agreed to the part about he's guessing -- but then "reportedly boiling" shows up again two hours later. Nevertheless, the new power line should be operable soon-ish? The high power truck ("van") is there now, too. Also, they are supposedly working on the existing power line to get it functional.

[apocrypha]

Can anyone give a rough idea of scale for that picture? I'm trying to visualise it and can't really get a handle on size.

It's about 4 stories.  There is another building built around the outside if it, those are what you see in the TV footage.

Cheers. I'd read somewhere that the spent fuel pools were 40m deep and that made my brain think that picture was taller than the Eiffel tower... 

[Merusk]

How is the powerline going to fix anything?   I understand the diesel engines being gummed up/ washed away by the tsunami so the pumps aren't running.  If this powerline is meant to get them running again, why weren't they simply able to fly replacement generators in from southern Japan in the last 7 days?

[ghost]

How is the powerline going to fix anything?   I understand the diesel engines being gummed up/ washed away by the tsunami so the pumps aren't running.  If this powerline is meant to get them running again, why weren't they simply able to fly replacement generators in from southern Japan in the last 7 days?

I wonder if all the parts of the cooling system are even intact enough to make new power effective.  Of course, Arthur's link shows that the US folks think they're fucked no matter what. 

[apocrypha]

Also, I don't know if this link has been posted before or not, but MIT Nuclear Science & Engineering are posting regular updates with analysis at the same time:

http://mitnse.com/

I think this site is a fraud.  
Linkage

Of course the main MIT NSE website links to it, so maybe not. 

Yeah, I think that's a conspiracy theory too far. From reading the blurb on the MIT website that links to that it looks like they went live with that site in a hurry, in response to these events.

I checked WHOIS and it confirms the domain registration date & name as described in that article you linked, but, as you say, it's linked directly from the main MIT website, so I doubt a major fraud is being carried out here.

I agree that the morgsatlarge.wordpress.com piece is suspect but mitnse.com seems a lot less so, although that doesn't mean that there aren't still axes being ground...

[MahrinSkel]

Morgsatlarge's author is an english professor.  So his stuff in the same category as mine: A well informed non-expert, except that he's a much better writer than I am.

--Dave

[Ghambit]

I was under the impression power wasnt really the problem at the plant.  The coolant systems themselves are where the problem lay.  If your pumps are frakked, lines clogged, and/or chambers blown, no amount of power will help you aside from being able to turn a light on (which imo is bad given the amount of volatile gas in the area).  Let's hope they can at least manipulate the systems from the control room when they flip the switch.

Which leads me to another point... they've got balls lighting up that plant after it's gone through what it has.  'Twer me I'd rely on generated power and/or DC.  Kind of a gamble wiring up a derelict plant.   I'm sure someone has to sign off on such a move.  

[Tale]

An Australian newspaper quoting a US nuclear regulator suggests there is no water at all in one of the spent fuel pools and it might not be fixable.

Chairman of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC), Gregory Jaczko ... who was briefing US politicians in Washington, said the NRC believed "there has been a hydrogen explosion in this unit due to an uncovering of the fuel in the spent fuel pool".

"We believe that secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent fuel pool. And we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures."

Edit: AP says Japanese authorities are denying Jaczko's statement that the pool is empty.

[Polysorbate80]

How is the powerline going to fix anything?   I understand the diesel engines being gummed up/ washed away by the tsunami so the pumps aren't running.  If this powerline is meant to get them running again, why weren't they simply able to fly replacement generators in from southern Japan in the last 7 days?

Apparently, they did--but they can't plug them in.

According to the NY Times:

Christopher D. Wilson, a reactor operator and later a manager at Exelon’s Oyster Creek plant, near Toms River, N.J., said, “normally you would just re-establish electricity supply, from the on-site diesel generator or a portable one.” Portable generators have been brought into Fukushima, he said.

Fukushima was designed by General Electric, as Oyster Creek was around the same time, and the two plants are similar. The problem, he said, was that the hookup is done through electric switching equipment that is in a basement room flooded by the tsunami, he said. “Even though you have generators on site, you have to get the water out of the basement,” he said.

Another nuclear engineer with long experience in reactors of this type, who now works for a government agency, was emphatic. “To completely stop venting, they’re going to have to put some sort of equipment back in service,” he said. He asked not to be named because his agency had not authorized him to speak.

Apparently they've been working on solving that, but it sounds like the new power line will get there first.  Here's hoping they don't get it there and find they've got no way to tie it in :P

[Tale]

Longer version of what Jaczko said:

"In addition to the three reactors that were operating at the time of the incident, a fourth reactor is also right now under concern. This reactor was shut down at the time of the earthquake," said NRC chairman Gregory Jaczko.
 
"What we believe at this time is there has been a hydrogen explosion in this unit due to an uncovering of the fuel in the spent fuel pool," he said, noting the explosion happened several days ago but its effects were cause for concern.
 
"We believe that secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent fuel pool and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures."
 
Jaczko briefed lawmakers about the latest developments as part of a House of Representatives hearing on the US energy budget, after meeting with President Barack Obama at the White House.
 
He said that if the United States were facing a similar situation, it would order a much larger evacuation zone than Japan has (12 miles, 20 kilometers), and so the US has called on Americans within 50 miles (80 kilometers) of the Japan nuclear plant area to leave.
 
"Recently the NRC made a recommendation that based on the available information that we have that for a comparable situation in the United States we would recommend an evacuation for a much larger radius than has currently been provided in Japan," he said.
 
"As a result of this recommendation the ambassador in Japan has issued a statement to American citizens that we believe it is appropriate to evacuate to a larger distance, up to approximately 50 miles."

[jakonovski]

This is tangential, but I just watched this document on Chernobyl: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-battle-of-chernobyl/

Gives perspective on both the physical and political aspects of nuclear disasters.

edit: fyi, it has some disturbing imagery.

[Tale]

BBC drives into the 20km exclusion zone and finds people, including hospital patients and staff and the local mayor, who says "they're leaving us to die".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12765859

Edit: correction, it's not the BBC, it's a Japanese crew whose film was obtained by the BBC.

[Tale]

Reporter from Australia's ABC:
    @haydencooper Just heard report that tomorrow wind will shift towards Tokyo.
    @haydencooper Also TEPCO warning that reactors 5 & 6 cuold go the way of 3 & 4.

UK, France (and Australia I can add) advising citizens to leave Tokyo.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-escalates

[01101010]

This is tangential, but I just watched this document on Chernobyl: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-battle-of-chernobyl/

Gives perspective on both the physical and political aspects of nuclear disasters.

edit: fyi, it has some disturbing imagery.

Thanks. Chernobyl has always fascinated me... a little morbund on my part, but something of that magnitude is so out of range of thought that it keeps me riveted.

[penfold]

This is tangential, but I just watched this document on Chernobyl: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-battle-of-chernobyl/

Gives perspective on both the physical and political aspects of nuclear disasters.

edit: fyi, it has some disturbing imagery.

Thanks. Chernobyl has always fascinated me... a little morbund on my part, but something of that magnitude is so out of range of thought that it keeps me riveted.

Yes, the readings at Chernobyl dwarf those found so far in Fukushima. Post explosion, the roof was 50 sieverts an hour, inside it was 300 sieverts an hour near the reactor.  The whole bio-robot thing hardly bears thinking about.  If the those pools go up in flames I fear the Japanese will have to resort to suicide squads to put it out. I guess technology today could make a hydraulically powered and controlled analogue remote vehicle, but I doubt any exist.

[Simond]

Hahaha!

2336: Kuni Yogo, a former nuclear power planner at Japan's Science and Technology Agency tells the New York Times that the Japanese government and the Tokyo Electric Power Company, the operator of the troubled nuclear plant, "try to disclose only what they think is necessary, while the media, which has an anti-nuclear tendency, acts hysterically, which leads the government and Tepco to not offer more information".

"When the media acts like adults, they'll get treated like adults. Until then, we ain't gotta explain shit". 

[Tale]

More from Jaczko via The Guardian:

10.39pm: Greg Jaczko of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission was buttonholed by journalists in Congress and pressed on his claims of no water remaining in a No 4 reactor's spent fuel pool, subsequently denied by Japanese officials. Jaczko says:

    The information I have is coming from staff people in Tokyo who are interfacing with their Japanese counterparts. I've confirmed that their information is reliable.

The NRC has 11 staff currently in Japan. Jaczko did also say: "It is my great hope that the information is not accurate."

[Fordel]

What would that mean if there was no water in the pool? Boom? Fire? Horrible Radiation Leakage that ruins that area of Japan? Minor Inconvenience?

[MahrinSkel]

Fire, which means smoke-borne contamination spreading a distance of miles in whatever direction the wind happens to be blowing, how far mostly a function of wind speed and fire intensity.  Quite probably radiation levels for the entire site becomes too high for humans without extraordinary protection, which means either they pull everyone out and have no control of what happens from then on, or suicide squads (isolation equipment is expensive, has to be custom-fitted, and requires a lot of support by un-protected personnel which puts the limit on how far the support area can be from the site to how far the wearer can walk wearing 60+ pounds of lead suit).

You could get a situation where the site cannot be worked in, so there'd be no way to control the situation with the reactors, so even worse things happen.

--Dave

[01101010]

Good christ. This whole event is just batshit crazy. 

[Tale]

The Guardian has a good graphic/widget showing:

Reactor 1: Partial core meltdown
Reactor 2: Potential meltdown feared
Reactor 3: Blast, fire, radiation leak
Reactor 4: Fire, water levels dropping
Reactor 5: Heat rising in spent fuel pool
Reactor 6: Heat rising in spent fuel pool

Reactors 1-3 were working at the time of the quake and shut down immediately (requiring cooling). Reactors 4-6 were undergoing maintenance, so their nuclear material was in the spent fuel pools.

They're all in the same place. So if they were abandoned, that looks like three meltdowns alongside three nuclear fuel fires. Surely it would be years before anyone could get near?