Japan [Tag: Fucked]

[Sheepherder]

So... what?  We should refocus R&D away from robots to building better Russians?

[Arthur_Parker]

?  I'm not suggesting anything I was quoting from the bio-robots bit of the horizon documentary.  I wasn't previously aware that years later scientists were going on virtual suicide missions to stand on the actual reactor core lid, protected by little more than scotch tape.

[Jeff Kelly]

Russia employed nearly 400.000 people over the course of a year and spent 18 billion dollar in today's currency to prevent a disaster that would have turned Europe into a nuclear wasteland and to clean up the mess. Most of them are long dead. The radiation was so high that even 120 meters above the reactor it was still two times the lethal dosage. Radiation on the reactor roof exceeded 12.000 Roentgen, four to five times the lethal dosage and that are the official numbers. No geiger counter was able to actually show the correct values any more.

It took them a month to put the fire in the reactor out and a week before they even could get close enough to the reactor to actually attack the fire, all the while being exposed to multiple times the lethal dosage of radiation. That the core didn't melt through the concrete and hit the deposits of water left over from previous attempts to put out the fire or a ground water supply is sheer luck because it would have triggered a 5 megaton explosion that would have levelled everything in a 120 mile radius, would have completely destroyed Kiew and seriously affected Europe.

Yet even though they sacrificed all of those resources and lives most of the area is still an uninhabitable wasteland and will be for hundreds of years to come.

[Simond]

along with the pants-on-head retarded reactor design and the inexperienced crew deliberately seeing how far they could push things before something went wrong.

I'm not sure that part of your post is entirely accurate, I thought that was just part of the first cover story.

The experiment that made Chernobyl go boom was supposed to be run by the day shift (who had been fully briefed and knew what was going on), but got postponed and then continued by the night shift (who were less informed). Said experiment was risky at best, even if the people who were supposed to have been doing it were in charge. So the original Soviet cover story of "It's all those guys faults but don't worry we have it under control" definitely wasn't true, but the human element was still a factor.

The main factor still being Chernobyl's design was ridiculously bad, mind you. Any power plant of any sort that can enter a positive feedback loop is dangerous (see: runaway diesels eating their own lubricating oil as fuel), but designing a fission reactor with that sort of flaw is just crazy.

[MahrinSkel]

Well, from what I can find out today, what happened yesterday was a steam/hydrogen explosion, which took out the outer shell and part of the cooling system but didn't breach containment.  Because it was an uncontrolled release, there's a lot more cesium and iodine released than was planned for, and probably some uranium dioxide.  Reportedly, there has *not* been an increase in the melting of the core, and the crash cooling cycle is proceeding successfully.

--Dave

EDIT: Also, they've given up on salvaging the reactor and have flooded it with seawater.  This means they have no shortage of coolant, but the interior mechanisms will be corroded and more exotic radioactive byproducts will be produced (since seawater has all kinds of metals and organics dissolved in it).

[Simond]

...but you won't see that on the news until they have a different lead story to hype up. I'm guessing...small child 'miraculously' found alive in one of the towns that were erased by the tsunami.

[Lantyssa]

Huh?  That's the very news I mentioned this morning.  This isn't Russia nor is it some isolated incident where a guy that screwed up is trying to cover his arse.  Experts from different countries are on the ground and trying to work on this.  Half their country is devastated, and those nearest it are probably too dazed or unaware to be worrying about "OMG! Nuclear meltdown!".

It's a serious issue, but geezus.  This is the exact stuff that got NMR changed to MRI.  People hear nuclear and accident in the same paragraph and they freak out.  They've got bigger problems, like entire fucking towns being washed out to sea.

[Mosesandstick]

On my course there was a Russian guy and we had to do a presentation on Chernobyl. It's anecdotal, but he basically said finding out accurate information about Chernobyl was easier searching in English than in Russian.

Chernobyl in retrospect 'seems' like a perfect storm of factors, poor reactor design, personnel problems, stupid test procedures, overriding safety features, etc.

[Arthur_Parker]

The main factor still being Chernobyl's design was ridiculously bad

Yeah, I guess the current design in Japan is just bad, only not ridiculously so.

[Arthur_Parker]

aljazeera

Yesterday, we reported that three people had tested positive for elevated radiation levels. That number has now jumped to 160, says a Japanese nuclear safety official.
...
AFP says the operator of the Fukushima nuclear power plant, where a second reactor system is overheating, says there is a risk of a second explosion. We'll keep you updated right here.
...
All the functions to keep cooling water levels in No.3 reactor have failed at the Fukushima No.1 plant.

As of 5:30am, water injection stopped and inside pressure is rising slightly

No. 1 reactor had the explosion, now talking about number No 3.

[Simond]

The main factor still being Chernobyl's design was ridiculously bad

Yeah, I guess the current design in Japan is just bad, only not ridiculously so.

Ignoring everything else, Chernobyl had a positive void coefficient. tl;dr version - once the coolant started boiling, the reactor went into a positive feedback loop: Water boiled, which removed the neutron moderation, which increased neutron flux, which sped up the reaction, which raised temperatures, which made more water boil. Repeat until there's enough high pressure steam to blow the bloody doors off.

The Japanese reactors are already shut down. The heat at the moment is from secondary and tertiary decay, and is steadily dropping as per the expected half-life curves.

[Fabricated]

Heh, so much for any more nuclear reactors in the US ever. Hope you all enjoy fly ash from coal-burning plants, because the not-in-my-backyard crowd literally has won forever now.

[Arthur_Parker]

The heat at the moment is from secondary and tertiary decay, and is steadily dropping as per the expected half-life curves.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/12/japan-earthquake-live-blog-death-toll-rises-amid-widespread-destruction/

A meltdown may be under way at one of Fukushima Daiichi's nuclear power reactors, an official with Japan's nuclear and industrial safety agency told CNN Sunday.

They still need to cool hot fuel right?  That's why they have been ordered to vent three reactors isn't it?

Edit, correction, ordered to vent two, they can't vent the third because the walls blew off and two employees went missing.

[Simond]

If something is at 2500 degrees and slowly cooling, you're probably still going to want to cool it down quicker.

[Arthur_Parker]

Probably?

http://blogs.forbes.com/williampentland/2011/03/11/risk-of-nuclear-catastrophe-escalates-in-japan-worse-than-chernobyl/

“In addition to the reactor cores, the storage pool for highly radioactive irradiated nuclear fuel is also at risk. The pool cooling water must be continuously circulated. Without circulation, the still thermally hot irradiated nuclear fuel in the storage pools will begin to boil off the cooling water. Within a day or two, the pool’s water could completely boil away. Without cooling water, the irradiated nuclear fuel could spontaneously combust in an exothermic reaction. Since the storage pools are not located within containment, a catastrophic radioactivity release to the environment could occur. Up to 100 percent of the volatile radioactive Cesium-137 content of the pools could go up in flames and smoke, to blow downwind over large distances. Given the large quantity of irradiated nuclear fuel in the pool, the radioactivity release could be worse than the Chernobyl nuclear reactor catastrophe of 25 years ago.”

I'll go out on a limb here and say I'm fairly certain they will want to keep cooling the reactors and the storage pools.

[Mrbloodworth]

NVM.

[Merusk]

Heh, so much for any more nuclear reactors in the US ever. Hope you all enjoy fly ash from coal-burning plants, because the not-in-my-backyard crowd literally has won forever now.

Yeah, pretty much.  It's coal, damns and Windmills from here on out.

[Simond]

Probably?

http://blogs.forbes.com/williampentland/2011/03/11/risk-of-nuclear-catastrophe-escalates-in-japan-worse-than-chernobyl/

“In addition to the reactor cores, the storage pool for highly radioactive irradiated nuclear fuel is also at risk. The pool cooling water must be continuously circulated. Without circulation, the still thermally hot irradiated nuclear fuel in the storage pools will begin to boil off the cooling water. Within a day or two, the pool’s water could completely boil away. Without cooling water, the irradiated nuclear fuel could spontaneously combust in an exothermic reaction. Since the storage pools are not located within containment, a catastrophic radioactivity release to the environment could occur. Up to 100 percent of the volatile radioactive Cesium-137 content of the pools could go up in flames and smoke, to blow downwind over large distances. Given the large quantity of irradiated nuclear fuel in the pool, the radioactivity release could be worse than the Chernobyl nuclear reactor catastrophe of 25 years ago.”

I'll go out on a limb here and say I'm fairly certain they will want to keep cooling the reactors and the storage pools.

Kamps is a specialist in nuclear waste at Beyond Nuclear

Got any sources other than fringe lunatics who've made a career from scaremongering about nuclear energy?

[Sand]

They've got bigger problems, like entire fucking towns being washed out to sea.

Which is why Im also starting to get all paranoid conspiracy theorist about the death toll, as well. There are Japanese officials on the news all day today saying the death toll "might" rise as high as 1,000. Might?
Fucking entire trains, cruise ships and populations of entire towns seem to be gone. Do they think they are all on that island in Lost?
Why are they artificially keeping the death toll low or at least in my perception doing so?

Oh and just to keep everyone updated on the nuclear catastrophe-

Another nuclear reactor at the Fukushima No. 1 facility in Japan has lost its emergency cooling capacity, according to the Associated Press, bringing to three the number of reactors at that facility to fall prey to Friday's magnitude 8.9 earthquake and tsunami. Added to failure of three reactors at Fukushima No. 2, the count is now six overall.

[Chimpy]

You have a Japanese PM who was running sub 20% approval ratings and admitted to accepting campaign contributions from a foreign national (against Japanese law) running things. Perfect reason to expect "Heck of a job, Brownie!" type stuff to be coming out of official channels.

That being said, listening solely the "no nuclear power anywhere" folks going apeshit about every single tiny thing that happens regarding the reactors instead of focusing on the much bigger impact of the damage and probable loss of life from the Tsunami caused by the quake is equally as sad.

[Hoax]

No it really isn't.

Right now the most important thing to talk about and pay attention to is what's going on with the reactors. The impact of the damage and loss of life already happened we can all hold hands and sing about it but I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with that.

I get that it'd be nice if we had more reliable links on the plant issues but that is the most important issue of the hour by a huge margin.

[Merusk]

Bah, you only say that because you're on the coast that would be irradiated.

[Sand]

You have a Japanese PM who was running sub 20% approval ratings and admitted to accepting campaign contributions from a foreign national (against Japanese law) running things. Perfect reason to expect "Heck of a job, Brownie!" type stuff to be coming out of official channels.

So one thought and one question comes to mind.

They have the Japanese equivalent of Bush running the country during its largest ever recorded natural disaster? 
I understand how this could account for down playing the nuclear bit, but would that account for the death toll figures?

[Khaldun]

Well, if any of the reactors melt through the bottom of the containment, it's gonna foul a lot more than just one area of the eastern coastline. If TMI had burned through the bottom of containment,  much of the watershed of SE Pennsylvania and the Chesapeake Bay would have been contaminated in some measure.

[Merusk]

Holy shit you find some weird people when Googling for information.  Apparently this earthquake was planned by "The Globalists" using the HAARP.  The information on how bad the meltdown actually is is all being withheld so that these same Globalists can move their money out of Toyota, Nissan, Sony, etc because Japan's economy is now going to crumble.  This is why the comments section from MSN and other news sites has been turned off on all related stories. 

The internet: Providing crazy people with fuel for their fires.

[Khaldun]

I keep thinking that some of the imagery in Ponyo is going to feel very different the next time I see it.

[Khaldun]

Holy shit you find some weird people when Googling for information.  Apparently this earthquake was planned by "The Globalists" using the HAARP.  The information on how bad the meltdown actually is is all being withheld so that these same Globalists can move their money out of Toyota, Nissan, Sony, etc because Japan's economy is now going to crumble.  This is why the comments section from MSN and other news sites has been turned off on all related stories. 

The internet: Providing crazy people with fuel for their fires.

There were a whole bunch of these assholes on NPR's website yesterday. There was a group saying it was HAARP, there was another group saying it's the result of fracking (people who can't understand the difference between small seismic events that might be due to fracking right next to where the process is going on and major earthquakes on the Ring of Fire), and then there were two guys talking about the supermoon.

[Sand]

*UPDATE*

Japan's top government spokesman says a partial meltdown is likely under way at second reactor affected by Friday's massive earthquake.

Thats it. They seem to be sitting on all other information.

[MahrinSkel]

The cesium leaks and hydrogen liberation already told us we had to have had a partial meltdown, where the fuel rod cladding was compromised.  But that's not a "meltdown" in the sense of Chernobyl, where the fuel liquefies and becomes one big supercritical mass at the bottom of the containment, which is when the Really Bad Shit happens.

--Dave

EDIT: Ahh, I see, this is talking about the No. 3 reactor.  Oh, joy.

[Tale]

Guardian's The Day After (appropriate/unfortunate name) gallery.

StratFor analysis of the reactor problems is very grim: Red Alert

[Hoax]

"There was a partial melting of fuel rod. There was a part of that... but it was nothing like a whole reactor melting down," he added, saying he was being briefed hourly on the situation.

TEPCO has been pumping seawater into the reactor in an effort to cool the core and says the top of the fuel rods are three metres above water. A TEPCO spokesman later told AFP that the rods were covered again.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/13/3162752.htm

Having a hard time keeping track of what the status of all the various reactors are at this point.

FUKUSHIMA, JAPAN (RNN) – Hours before a Japanese official announced a nuclear meltdown was possibly under way, 200,000 people were evacuated from a 12.5-mile radius around a failed nuclear power plant.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said radiation at the Fukushima Daiichi unit 3 reactor "exceeded legal limits," and it was "highly possible" a meltdown is occurring, according to the Associated Press.

"Because it's inside the reactor, we cannot directly check it, but we are taking measures on the assumption of the possible partial meltdown," Edano told reporters.

I mean the first story was from one hour ago this is from 20 minutes later. Things seem bad to say the least.

[UnSub]

Triforcer was in Japan, wasn't he?

Chernobyl happened because of a perfect storm of factors, a big one being that those people leading the test completely believed that they couldn't cause a meltdown by doing what they were doing. So I find the whole, "Oh, this couldn't possibly melt down" seen on early pages blackly amusing. Turns out that it could.

Even if it goes no further than this partial melt, there will still be a lot of clean-up of hazardous materials... and that's on top of the earthquake / tsunami clean up.

[Tale]

Before/After photos of devastation in Japan, including nuclear plant: roll your mouse over the pic to reveal.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Before/After photos of devastation in Japan, including nuclear plant: roll your mouse over the pic to reveal.

Wow.  Those images are just incredible.  For me, it's one thing to look at piles of lumber, metal and other materials that used to be buildings, but to see before and after pics that show entire cities just wiped out... Just wow. 

[Tale]

These videos from the 2004 tsunami show what happened as the water hit Indonesia's Banda Aceh (where most of the victims died). It looks quite similar to the effect on Japan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF0dy5DjEmQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5wLQ1UWTtM