Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 10:45:30 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Topic: Japan [Tag: Fucked] 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 23 24 [25] 26 27 ... 35 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Japan [Tag: Fucked]  (Read 281001 times)
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #840 on: March 25, 2011, 03:21:48 PM

There's cause for real concern over the long term effects from this, I think there's still room for a position somewhere between the two extremes.

Yellow Rain Falls In Tokyo? Pollen Excuse Exact Same As Chernobyl Yellow Rain Lie

Fukushima scaremongers becoming increasingly desperate
Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742


Reply #841 on: March 25, 2011, 03:38:32 PM

Well yes, you are technically correct. The Register is a well-known new media (ugh) outlet that is generally reliable, and Intel Hub is a conspiracy nut site run by 9/11 truthers. So the truth will be somewhere between those two, in the sense that if you look at two ends of a spectrum then being all the way over at one end is still technically inside the spectrum.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Ghambit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5576


Reply #842 on: March 25, 2011, 03:41:18 PM

So wait, is he (Nishiyama) saying there's a crack in primary containment or the pressure vessel itself?  Kind of doesnt matter (now that I'm starting to understand how the hell this shit works), since if anything in the closed loop that provides cooling/steampower is broken that pretty much means your pressure vessel is broken... it matters not if the actual cylindrical vessel holding the fuel is cracked.

If JUST primary containment is cracked (the containment outside the main pressure vessel), that'd mean little if the main vessel/loop is intact yes?  

If the suppression pool is cracked then any venting into that system via the closed loop would obviously get outside... moreso if primary containment is breeched.
If primary containment is cracked AS WELL as any portion of the pressure vessel (valves and pipes included) in the drywell, even worse.
It's still quite possible that all of the above have failed; broken suppression pool, valve/pipe/vessel failures in the pressure loop, and primary containment breech.  Atop all of which lay a dozen reactors worth of spent fuel.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Via Mother Jones


Quote
Mark I Reactor Components: (A) Uranium fuel rods; (B) Steam separator and dryer assemblies (C) Graphite control rods; (D) Vent and head spray; (E) Reactor vessel; (F) Feedwater inlet; (G) Low pressure coolant injection inlet; (H) Steam outlet; (I) Core spray inlet; (J) Jet pump; (K) Recirculation pump; (L) Concrete shell "drywell"; (M) Venting system; (N) Suppression pool; (O) Boron tank; (P) Condensate storage tank; (Q) High pressure coolant injection system; (R) HCIS turbine; (S) Automatic depressurization system; (T) Main turbine; (U) Connection to generator; (V) Condenser; (W) Circulating water; (X) Connection to outside service water; (Y) Concrete shield plug; (Z) Control rod drives. Illustrations by Joe Kloc.

Quote
Mark I Reactor Running Normally: Recirculation loops (RED) keep pressurized water circulating through the uranium core of the reactor. When water is heated by the uranium core it turns to steam. It passes through the steam separator and dryer assemblies positioned above the core (ORANGE) and then moves through the steam pipe. The steam is used to turn a turbine connected (PURPLE) to an electrical generator. It is then turned back into liquid by a condenser and cooled by a pipe (GREY) of circulating cold water. The water is then pumped back into the reactor, where the process begins again.

Mark I Reactor High Pressure Emergency Core Cooling System: The Automatic Depressurization System (BROWN) can be used to release pressure in the reactor. It reroutes some of the steam to the suppression chamber. The High Pressure Coolant Injection System (GREEN) takes steam from the steam pipe and converts it into water that is then pumped back into the reactor to keep the core cool. Pressure can also be released directly (YELLOW) into the suppression chamber.

Mark I Reactor Low Pressure Emergency Core Cooling System: The Core Spray System (DARK BLUE) takes water from the suppression chamber and sprays it onto the core. The Low Pressure Coolant Injection System (LIGHT BLUE) takes outside water as well as water from the supression chamber and pumps some into the recirculation system (shown as RED in first diagram) and sprays the rest on the core.

Mark I Reactor Standby Liquid Control System: Most of the Fukushima reactors are powered by low enriched uranium. When the LEU is hit with neutrons, the atoms split, releasing energy (which heats the water) and more neutrons.  Because boron (LIME) absorbs neutrons, injecting it into the core can help shut down the reactor.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #843 on: March 25, 2011, 03:49:38 PM

Well yes, you are technically correct. The Register is a well-known new media (ugh) outlet that is generally reliable, and Intel Hub is a conspiracy nut site run by 9/11 truthers. So the truth will be somewhere between those two, in the sense that if you look at two ends of a spectrum then being all the way over at one end is still technically inside the spectrum.

Enthralling, but the register article also happens to be just as misleading as the batshit insane site.  Which was kinda the whole reason I posted terrible examples of both positions.  Feel free to disagree but it's also factually incorrect.
jakonovski
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4388


Reply #844 on: March 25, 2011, 04:01:22 PM

That Register fellow for some reason felt it was necessary to passionately argue how harmless radioisotopes of Cesium and Iodine are, and even how getting thyroid cancer isn't such a big deal. I will never understand why cranks always have to go and proclaim that everything is wrong and upside down.
Nyght
Terracotta Army
Posts: 538


Reply #845 on: March 25, 2011, 04:08:00 PM

That Register fellow for some reason felt it was necessary to passionately argue how harmless radioisotopes of Cesium and Iodine are, and even how getting thyroid cancer isn't such a big deal. I will never understand why cranks always have to go and proclaim that everything is wrong and upside down.

Must have been the size of the check from the industry....   Ohhhhh, I see.

"Do you know who is in charge here?" -- "Yep."
Jeff Kelly
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6921

I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #846 on: March 25, 2011, 04:30:15 PM

Are you positive about that? I thought BWR's only had one coolant loop.   Now in Candu's the 3rd loop is freshwater, but I can't imagine a design where you would be one heat-exchanger failure from contamination.

You have one coolant loop but two water loops.

The primary loop carries the steam produced by the fission reaction to the turbine and the condenser and contains light water (water containing no residual elements). The secondary loop carries the fresh (or sea) water that cools the steam of the first loop. In PWRs there is a tertiary loop so that the primary loop is decoupled from the fresh water carrying tertiary system but not in BWRs.

Also I'm no nuclear physicist I know enough about handling and effects of nuclear material in my role as rescue personnel and fire fighter and because we have to know the evacuation and rescue plans but I don't have details about the radioactive qualities of the water in the primary loop. It's radioactive yes, but I don't know how much exactly.

Yet just imagine the sheer amount of water required to cool one reactor block. We're talking about several tons of water per hour, water that was basically splashed on and into the containment. The radiation could come from something that remained from the huge amounts of steam that were vented, it could be water that spilled out of the spent fuel pools, it could be from a breached core or from the effects of the initial tsunami or several other things.

Journalists are no experts, so there might be a failure of communication there. For example fhe official language would put the zirconium shell of the uranium fuel as primary containment because that's what makes up a fuel rod. A fuel rod is a hollow tube made up of a zirconium alloy that contains tablets of uranium. Zirconium is used because it's nearly transparent as far as neutrons are concerned (not many materials are)

Secondary containment would be the pressurized core vessel, tertiary containment the concrete dome around the vessel. I've seen a lot of reports in the last weeks that simply didn't know that and put the pressure vessel as primary containment.
MahrinSkel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10857

When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #847 on: March 25, 2011, 04:34:11 PM

There's a point, to a degree.  Cesium has very low radioactivity (to go with the 30-year half-life).  But it's chemically toxic, and not present in the environment very much except as a product of nuclear weapons or reactors.

It was a little disingenuous to minimize the thyroid cancer risk as "only 0.02% higher", by which he means higher than the normal rate of 0.004% per year, so the rates of thyroid cancer will be 500% higher than they would have been otherwise.  So no, you can't point at a particular future case of thyroid cancer and say "Fukushima did this", but you can point to the overall increase of cases of people in Japan in the future and say "5 out of 6 of these cancers were caused by Fukushima."

--Dave

--Signature Unclear
Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742


Reply #848 on: March 25, 2011, 04:37:40 PM

Or, you know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
MahrinSkel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10857

When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #849 on: March 25, 2011, 04:43:25 PM

Or, you know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That was 66 years ago.  Radioactive iodine has a half-life measured in days, any effects that fallout had has long since flushed out of the ecosystem.

--Dave

EDIT: As for the "Yellow Rain".  There are thousands of people with Geiger counters running around Japan right now, and hundreds of web cameras feeding their results to the internet.  If it really was a rain of radioactive fallout, everyone would have known within minutes of it starting to fall (in fact, it's quite possible the yellow rain after Chernobyl actually *was* pollen, and the presence of radioactivity was coincidental).
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 04:47:49 PM by MahrinSkel »

--Signature Unclear
UnSub
Contributor
Posts: 8064


WWW
Reply #850 on: March 26, 2011, 01:46:38 AM

Or, you know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Friendly advice: don't raise the spectre of nuclear weapon fallout when trying to defend nuclear power. It's just a silly thing to do that hurts your own argument.

Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742


Reply #851 on: March 26, 2011, 12:03:20 PM

Or, you know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That was 66 years ago.  Radioactive iodine has a half-life measured in days, any effects that fallout had has long since flushed out of the ecosystem.
You were talking about caesium.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Sir Fodder
Terracotta Army
Posts: 198


Reply #852 on: March 26, 2011, 12:27:49 PM

Workers sent to work in the reactor building wearing fucking clownshoes? Japanese gov't asking very respectfully and nicely of Tepco to please release more information- Tepco spokespersons decline comments (without comment!) on current situation yesterday. Apparent foot dragging on obtaining fresh water supply to cool the reactors. Meanwhile respected scientists like Michio Kaku (on 3/25/11) are saying there is potential for a situation worse than Chernobyl. The relationship between Tepco and the Japanese gov't seems totally dysfunctional and lacking in perspective, and its curious that the Japanese public isn't going apeshit at the lack of info, -though maybe they are- just no international reporting on it? What is with the shitty grainy photos they finally, after delaying for days, released of the images of the flyover and the workers on site, Japan is the fucking world leader in digi photography, W T F>>>> some 8 year old kid could probably fly his RC helicopter in there and get better images, arrgh.
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #853 on: March 26, 2011, 01:19:45 PM

Or, you know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That was 66 years ago.  Radioactive iodine has a half-life measured in days, any effects that fallout had has long since flushed out of the ecosystem.
You were talking about caesium.

The circumstances involved during an atomic bomb detonation are very different to what happened at Chernobyl, likewise different again at Fukushima.  While acknowledging the differences, if you just talk about the C-137 released.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2376457/pdf/tacca00088-0074.pdf
Quote
At first, it was estimated that the amount of Cesium-137 released at Chernobyl equalled that of all the previous 1,472 atomic tests above and below ground. This estimate was reduced later to one-tenth the total amount, but the release was still unprecedented.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20285-fukushima-radioactive-fallout-nears-chernobyl-levels.html
Quote
caesium-137 emissions are on the same order of magnitude as at Chernobyl. The Sacramento readings suggest..... (Chernobyl released) around 70 per cent more per day

Chernobyl burned for 10 days, if the first link is accurate for an approx total of 147 atomic blasts over the full ten days, and the second link is accurate, it appears Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been well eclipsed already.

Not claiming either link is accurate as I only spent a few minutes looking, I just was interested enough to get a rough idea.

Edit, found another later source which gives 6% http://www.ncrponline.org/Publications/154press.html
Quote
137Cs released to the biosphere, ~90 % was produced by atmospheric testing. Approximately 6 % was produced by the Chernobyl accident and roughly 4 % by nuclear fuel reprocessing facilities.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 01:42:28 PM by Arthur_Parker »
Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075

Error 404: Title not found.


Reply #854 on: March 26, 2011, 01:48:47 PM

Friend in China says many people he has spoke with are openly pleased about the disaster.

Sick.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Engels
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9029

inflicts shingles.


Reply #855 on: March 26, 2011, 02:26:53 PM

Heard of a bunch of Chinese students at the University of Washington actively cheering while watching 9-11 in progress from the student union. Grain of salt, since its a second hand tale, but I have seen many of them mobilize to protest a visit from the Dalai Lama. Banners, chanting, the whole 9 yards. Deeply ingrained nationalism.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
MahrinSkel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10857

When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #856 on: March 26, 2011, 02:41:46 PM

Or, you know, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
That was 66 years ago.  Radioactive iodine has a half-life measured in days, any effects that fallout had has long since flushed out of the ecosystem.
You were talking about caesium.
I was talking about thyroid cancer rates, which are related to iodine, not cesium.  Cesium has a long half-life, but by precisely the same token it's not very radioactive and its chemical toxicity is a bigger deal.

--Dave

--Signature Unclear
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #857 on: March 26, 2011, 03:58:41 PM

Radiation Spread From Japanese Nuclear Power Plant Continues

Quote
Tokyo Electric Power confirms that zirconium-95 in sea water several hundred meters from the Fukushima plant has been detected since Wednesday when testing began there for additional radioactive elements.
A spokesman for the Japanese prime minister's office tells VOA there is no clear evidence that the cladding has been breached.

Hadn't spotted that before.
brellium
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1296


Reply #858 on: March 26, 2011, 09:57:44 PM

Radiation Spread From Japanese Nuclear Power Plant Continues

Quote
Tokyo Electric Power confirms that zirconium-95 in sea water several hundred meters from the Fukushima plant has been detected since Wednesday when testing began there for additional radioactive elements.
A spokesman for the Japanese prime minister's office tells VOA there is no clear evidence that the cladding has been breached.

Hadn't spotted that before.
Game, set, and match.

Core's breached, unless somehow something decayed to zirconium-95, instead of the zirconium-94 from the cladding becoming "enriched".
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 10:00:05 PM by brellium »

‎"One must see in every human being only that which is worthy of praise. When this is done, one can be a friend to the whole human race. If, however, we look at people from the standpoint of their faults, then being a friend to them is a formidable task."
—‘Abdu’l-Bahá
Ghambit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5576


Reply #859 on: March 26, 2011, 11:52:26 PM

Quote
Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has detected radioactive materials 10-million-times normal levels in water at the No.2 reactor complex of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

The plant operator, known as TEPCO, says it measured 2.9-billion becquerels of radiation per one cubic centimeter of water from the basement of the turbine building attached to the Number 2 reactor.

The level of contamination is about 1,000 times that of the leaked water already found in the basements of the Number 1 and 3 reactor turbine buildings.

The company says the latest reading is 10-million times the usual radioactivity of water circulating within a normally operating reactor.
TEPCO says the radioactive materials include 2.9-billion becquerels of iodine-134, 13-million becquerels of iodine-131, and 2.3-million becquerels each for cesium 134 and 137.

 swamp poop
Terribad news.  I remember them wanting to check out No. 2's basement and I guess the results arent too positive.
They're pretty sure now the reactor (inside the pressure loop or vessel) has been breached SOMEWHERE.  My guess is since the water is pooling so badly in the turbine rooms that likely the leak is in the closed loop piping/valves somewhere.   And since the fuel rods are likely damaged it's pretty much a direct route outside for gnasty stuff.  At least the thing isnt on fire though or steaming too badly... water is the best radiation insulator there is aside from lead yes?

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742


Reply #860 on: March 27, 2011, 02:57:31 AM

#2 is the one where we they said that the suppression pool was probably leaking, right? Hardly surprising that there's radioactive puddles inside the building there then. It might even be the turbine loop that's cracked and leaking, potentially. 1000 mSv/hr = 1 Sv/hr = "If you stood in a radioactive puddle for an hour, you might start getting very mild radiation poisoning (i.e. about a 50:50 chance of nausea and a much smaller chance of headaches, sunburn and depressed white cell count)". And judging from the total lack of panicked reporting about stupidly high radiaction levels outside of #2 building, the water is hopefully not going anywhere.


Ghambit, that depends on what type of radiation you're talking about. Iodine-131 decays via beta-emission (to Xenon-131), and beta particles (normally electrons) can penetrate living tissue to a depth of a few millimetres, and can be blocked by...aluminium foil (yes, really - Tinfoil Hat works). The health risk with iodine-131 is that the body doesn't care about isotopes so shunts the I-131 to the thyroid along with all the non-radioactive I-127...which means that it could end up with a concentrated area of I-131 inside the body. This is why the preventative medicine is potassium iodide - fill the thyroid up with a near-overdose of I-127, and the body simply won't pick up any of the I-131 in the first place. Luckily, the Japanese diet already contains ridiculous levels of iodine (something like >100 the RDA on average) due to all the seafood and especially the seaweed they eat on top of the Japanese government handing out iodine tablets, so the long-term effect is likely to be minimal to nil.

Especially as the iodine-131 levels in the Tokyo tapwater is already back down to normal.

Radiation Spread From Japanese Nuclear Power Plant Continues

Quote
Tokyo Electric Power confirms that zirconium-95 in sea water several hundred meters from the Fukushima plant has been detected since Wednesday when testing began there for additional radioactive elements.
A spokesman for the Japanese prime minister's office tells VOA there is no clear evidence that the cladding has been breached.

Hadn't spotted that before.
Game, set, and match.

Core's breached, unless somehow something decayed to zirconium-95, instead of the zirconium-94 from the cladding becoming "enriched".
Or one of the spent fuel rod pools went dry for a while and some of the zirconium burnt off. Remember those? The things everyone (including me) was saying was a bigger worry than the reactor cores themselves and how the lesson to take from all of this was "Make sure your spent fuel dump is at least as secure as the reactor core rather than a glorified swimming pool tucked up underneath the rafters"?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 03:30:41 AM by Simond »

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Goumindong
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4297


Reply #861 on: March 27, 2011, 09:56:32 AM

Heard of a bunch of Chinese students at the University of Washington actively cheering while watching 9-11 in progress from the student union. Grain of salt, since its a second hand tale, but I have seen many of them mobilize to protest a visit from the Dalai Lama. Banners, chanting, the whole 9 yards. Deeply ingrained nationalism.

Unlikely. UW isn't in session at that time (IIRC summer school is ending/ended right before them and the fall term doesn't start till late Sept). And the attacks started at 6AM pst
Engels
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9029

inflicts shingles.


Reply #862 on: March 27, 2011, 12:23:00 PM

Maybe. PRC students are by far the largest foreign country contingent in my department, and the graduate students stay on between quarters.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
NowhereMan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7353


Reply #863 on: March 27, 2011, 02:44:51 PM

Heard of a bunch of Chinese students at the University of Washington actively cheering while watching 9-11 in progress from the student union. Grain of salt, since its a second hand tale, but I have seen many of them mobilize to protest a visit from the Dalai Lama. Banners, chanting, the whole 9 yards. Deeply ingrained nationalism.

On the Dalai Lama thing, it's not just, "He doesn't want to be Chinese the bastard," It's also a strongly pushed propaganda specifically directed at him and traditional Tibetan life by the PRC that focuses on the inequality and feudalism that Tibetan Buddhism had. The country was pretty much on the level of medieval Europe with peasants sending the goods to the monastries to keep the monks going, the PRC now just paints the Dalai Lama as someone that wants to get rid of China so that he can reimpose himself as dictator of Tibet or thereabouts. The protests against him are part blind nationalism and part a strongly tinted view of what he is/represents. Of course the smug reaction to the Japanese quake disaster and even some people being happy at it is pretty sickening, though I should add it's hardly something which is going to be peculiar to China. Every country has a load of assholes that whoop and holler when something horrible happens to people they don't like.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449

Badge Whore


Reply #864 on: March 27, 2011, 04:17:42 PM

Lest we forget the classy "Remember Pearl Harbor, fuckers. There's your Payback" response from the jackasses in the US.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
UnSub
Contributor
Posts: 8064


WWW
Reply #865 on: March 27, 2011, 05:56:36 PM

The 10 million times result a mistake; actually only 100 000x higher.

This disaster is also starting to drive a local protest against nuclear power in Japan.

MahrinSkel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10857

When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #866 on: March 27, 2011, 07:04:30 PM

If that protest succeeds in keeping the other nuclear plants from being restarted, it's going to kill a lot more people and do a lot more damage to the economy there, once they're facing rolling blackouts all summer.

--Dave

--Signature Unclear
Sir T
Terracotta Army
Posts: 14223


Reply #867 on: March 27, 2011, 08:05:16 PM

If that protest succeeds in keeping the other nuclear plants from being restarted, it's going to kill a lot more people and do a lot more damage to the economy there, once they're facing rolling blackouts all summer.

--Dave

This.

{edit} Flyover video of Fukushima Nuke Plant
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 11:02:06 PM by Sir T »

Hic sunt dracones.
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #868 on: March 27, 2011, 11:09:50 PM

Radioactive water removal underway, fresh seawater pollution found

Quote
Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a press conference that the highly radioactive water found at the basement of the No. 2 reactor's turbine building is ''believed to have temporarily had contact with fuel rods (in the reactor's core) that have partially melted.''

The Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan, a government panel, said Monday in its recommendations to Prime Minister Naoto Kan that highly radioactive water in the No. 2 reactor's containment vessel could have directly leaked, raising concerns that polluted water could spread to the building's underground and to the sea.

The government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency also said Monday radioactive iodine-131 at a concentration 1,150 times the maximum allowable level was detected Sunday in a seawater sample taken around 1.5 kilometers north of the drainage outlets of the troubled No. 1-4 reactors.

First confirmation that they have a major problem, seems like only a matter of time before Japan raises the accident to a level 6 on the INES Scale.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 01:19:52 AM by Arthur_Parker »
Sheepherder
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5192


Reply #869 on: March 28, 2011, 12:00:19 AM

water is the best radiation insulator there is aside from lead yes?

Not at all.
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #870 on: March 28, 2011, 01:15:27 AM

Thought this was interesting on that.

Tin could cool Fukushima reactor say Chernobyl team

Quote
A special working group set up in Ukraine has passed Japan its proposals on stabilizing the situation at the Fukushima nuclear power plant in Japan, the Interfax news agency reported. The group comprises specialists who were involved in clearing the aftermath of the nuclear breakdown at the Chernobyl plant in Ukraine twenty five years ago. "The proposals were passed through the Japanese embassy in Ukraine," the Ukrainian Emergencies Service said in a statement circulated on Thursday. A team of Ukrainian nuclear specialists is ready fly out to Japan to help put these proposals into practice.

The Ukrainian plan suggests that to bring the heat processes in Fukushima-1 reactors under control, it is necessary "first, to ensure a normal cooling mode in the spent fuel pools by pumping water, sea water as a last resort, into them; second, the type of reactor fuel coolant needs to be changed – water should be replaced with low-melting and chemically neutral metal, for instance tin, which will pull heat away from the fuel rods (molten or damaged) towards the inner walls of the reactor, while continuing to use sea water to cool down its outer walls". The tin 'lake' inside the reactor will "reduce the discharge of heavy fission products and bring ionizing radiation levels down. Chipped tin could be pumped in through steam communications under pressure using cylinders with helium or argon"

It's apparently not as daft as it sounds.
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #871 on: March 28, 2011, 02:07:20 AM

High-radiation water found outside Japan No.2 reactor-operator

Quote
(Reuters) - Radiation above 1,000 millisieverts per hour was found in surface water in trenches outside the No. 2 reactor of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, operator Tokyo Electric Power said on Monday. (Reporting by Shinichi Saoshiro)

latest dust sampling

Quote
Radioactivity Concentration (Bq/kg) 137 Cs

(About 40 km NorthWest) Iitate Village
1,800,000, 1,010,000, 2,650,000, 1,240,000, 1,600,000, 1,620,000, 1,050,000, 398,000, 2,870,000

NHK is also reporting some people are returning to their homes in the evacuation zone.
Furiously
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7199


WWW
Reply #872 on: March 28, 2011, 02:14:50 AM

I always thought distance from the source was the best insulator. (See earth's location from the sun).

Alpha - There are actually atoms. A sheet of paper stops most.
Beta - These are electrons that got free somehow. Several milimeters of metal or plastic will stop most.
Gamma - photons, high energy particles (Like light). They can go though several inches of lead.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 02:18:55 AM by Furiously »

Jeff Kelly
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6921

I'm an apathetic, hedonistic, utilitarian, nihilistic existentialist.


Reply #873 on: March 28, 2011, 03:35:52 AM

Well distance is one thing, insulation the other. When a gamma burst from a supernova hits earth even a few light years of distance might not be enough to protect us. The ozone layer and earth's magnetic field might, though.

Water is actually pretty amazing stuff. It's common, has the second highest heat capacity and the highest heat of vaporization (best for heat exchange and cooling), it's transparent to visible light but opaque for most other electromagnetic waves. It's also a dipolar molecule and the hydrogen bonds between water molecules makes water even more amazing (capillary effect and surface tension for example wouldn't be nearly as strong without it). The dipolar nature and the strength of the hydrogen bond are also responsible for it being an insulator for electromagnetic and particle rays. (small molecule compared to the particles that it needs to absorb and relatively high density as liquid).

The problem with radioactivity though is that it's "contagious". The strong interaction (the force that holds the nucleus and the subatomic particles together) is 100 times stronger than the elctromagnetic force but has a very short range. So "larger" and heavier elements are generally less stable and most transuranic elements are simply made up of too many neutrons and protons for the strong force to hold them together so they "break apart". The energy resulting from such processes is bond energy either "released" from the initial fission or from the resulting elements adopting a more stable configuration (gamma and x-rays are usually emitted when the nucleus or electron shell proceeds to reach "ground state" for the new configuration).

Conversely if a particle gets "near" enough it can be caught by another nucleus or break it apart. The only requirement is for the particle to have the right energy. Some of those configurations are stable some are not and so might in turn be radioactive.
Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865

Internet Detective


Reply #874 on: March 28, 2011, 03:38:55 AM

Pages: 1 ... 23 24 [25] 26 27 ... 35 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Topic: Japan [Tag: Fucked]  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC