Shogun 2: Total War

[Paelos]

I reinstalled Rome, lots of fun.

But how the fuck to I stop the autogoverned cities from producing fucking wardogs non-stop?

Set your spend to save bar towards save.

[Sophismata]

Never buying another Total War game.  Bought them all until Empire.

This is my stance, too.

I don't think they've ever really fixed the issues with their engine (dating back to R:TW). They take a long time to fix even basic problems (that modders end up fixing first, without access to the code at all), or even acknowledging some problems exist.

For a LONG time, shields in M2:TW actually decreased your defence. Shit like that annoys me (along with unit orders and animations being fucked up in general).

[Ceryse]

After the mess that was Empire going back to Shogun is the only thing that managed to get my attention and the possibility I'd spend a dime on the game in play. I loved the original Shogun, even with the limited factions and such; but I'm a sucker for the time period. Rome was the last decent Total War game and given how bad Empire was, especially at launch, means this one will necessitate a definitely "try before buy".

But if they had gone to anything other than Shogun? I'd probably not even do that.

[Paelos]

I think they had to go backwards because Empire really showed them how their games fall apart when everyone has guns.

[jakonovski]

I think they had to go backwards because Empire really showed them how their games fall apart when everyone has guns.

Naw, their games fall apart when the AI musketeers only use melee and its cavalry never charges into melee. Bonus points for artillery units deployed behind obstacles.

[Sheepherder]

This reeks of a "Hey, you know why Empire sucked?  Because it didn't have samurai!" mentality.

[eldaec]

Pretty much everyone explained why empire sucked and didn't say that. What are you talking about?

[Modern Angel]

I don't give two shits about samurai

[Sheepherder]

Pretty much everyone explained why empire sucked and didn't say that. What are you talking about?

The developer making the game.  You know, the important people.

When their promo movie devotes more time to the lineage of their game series than to the fact that their AI is totally not retarded anymore, I'd hazard the guess that their AI is probably still totally retarded.

[Ingmar]

Pretty much everyone explained why empire sucked and didn't say that. What are you talking about?

The developer making the game.  You know, the important people.

When their promo movie devotes more time to the lineage of their game series than to the fact that their AI is totally not retarded anymore, I'd hazard the guess that their AI is probably still totally retarded.

Seriously? You think 'WE FIXED OUR AI' is something that anyone is ever going to put in their trailer?

[Sheepherder]

It's nominally a wargame, AI normally at least gets honorable mention when you're trying to sell one.  For fuck's sake, marketing people try to sell the AI in shooters.

[Rasix]

Ok, serious question time:

Are you fucking retarded?

[Sheepherder]

Give me a second while I find some box art or some shit of the original Shogun with them totally hyping how awesome their Sun Tzu inspired AI is.

Short answer: yes.

EDIT:

EDIT2: I think it's fair to assume that the single greatest consideration of everyone watching this game who has had experience with it's predecessors is whether the AI was dropped on it's head at birth.  Yes, I am aware that they have a video up of a battle, no it's not reassuring.

[Modern Angel]

You actually are retarded. This is gibberish.

[dusematic]

Isn't he basically just saying Shogun 2 will suck balls like the last 2 games? 

[HaemishM]

If you do not like the Total War series for whatever reason you don't like the series, you will not like Shogun 2. If you do, you probably WILL like Shogun 2 unless you don't like Samurai fights.

[Speedy Cerviche]

If you do not like the Total War series for whatever reason you don't like the series, you will not like Shogun 2. If you do, you probably WILL like Shogun 2 unless you don't like Samurai fights.

This thread is full of people who like TW series but have been burn when it turned into a pile of shit with Empire and are pretty skeptical CA can reverse the spiral with STW2.

Actually the launches of Rome & MTW2 were probably just as bad as Empire, the difference was that modders were able to make them playable while CA got around to patching, so you had a playable game + new content in mods around the time an expansion came out, at which point they really began to age finely. Now CA has cut out the modders so they don't compete with their DLC sales, and the game will sink or swim solely on CA's execution & competence, which as any veteren TW player will tell you, is not good news.

[HaemishM]

Um, I'm not sure what you're looking at, but Empire got modded to hell and back, with lots of AI mods available. I played a few of them myself. Napoleon is the same way. If CA tried to lock out the mods to enable their DLC sales, they failed spectacularly.

[jakonovski]

Fuck mods, if a game can't function without fan cpr, it's not one I'm gonna buy. Not anymore.

[Sheepherder]

Isn't he basically just saying Shogun 2 will suck balls like the last 2 games?

Pretty much.  I'd throw in that TCA seems to think the same, because their marketing pitch is pretty goddamn lame considering it doesn't address anyone's concerns unless those concerns are "does it have samurai, ninjas, and geisha?", even for a game that will only have been in development for ~3/4 of a year if it releases on schedule.

Seriously, anyone holding out hope for this should wear a helmet.

[eldaec]

Isn't he basically just saying Shogun 2 will suck balls like the last 2 games? 

Not sure, I think he might be saying that empire would have been a better game with samurai, and that CA have recreated all the bugs within the previous game, because prior problems are inexplicably not mentioned in the publicity cinematic.

But it is hard to be sure.

[Ingmar]

Seriously, how many pairs of pants would a marketer have to be wearing on their head to not only draw attention to problems in the last game but poison the expectations for the next by putting them in the marketing?

[dusematic]

Not sure, but you'd think if CA was going to go the EA sports franchise of yearly graphical updates/roster updates then the core gameplay would at least slowly and inexorably improve.  But no.

[Sheepherder]

Ingmar: How many pairs are you wearing right now?

Not that "We totally have great AI this time, honest." is a particularly strong sell.  Since they haven't told you what, if anything, is better.  Or really done much to demo any of it.  That being said, comparing modern work to antecedent work to the detriment of the latter (product lineup 2011, now with improved feature!) happens all the goddamn time.  Very occasionally if a product is hated enough they'll burn it in effigy, because the job of marketing is to convince the audience that you're on the same page and delivering the straight goods, which means if they hated last year's model, you should too.

Not sure, but you'd think if CA was going to go the EA sports franchise of yearly graphical updates/roster updates then the core gameplay would at least slowly and inexorably improve.  But no.

3/4 of a year between Napoleon and Shogun II.  I don't really know why people want to put faith in this, that alone does it for me.

[Paelos]

I really don't get how yall are jumping on Sheepherder for saying that the devs and marketing need to address the AI. Of course they have to address the AI. The mistake was so blatant that they have no other options but to address it and reassure the populace.

[Speedy Cerviche]

What CA was doing 5-7 years ago was fairly unique, barely any knock offs for these massive scale RTS games were around, they were all age of empire/warcraft clones. Now I will not shed any tears if TW suffocates to death under the massive pile of crap that has piled up ontop of it because it has competition in this style of RTS game. Small eastern european studios like Neocore are making TW clones, gas powered games is making a medieval fantasy version of supreme commander, when TW sucks there are many more people able and willing now to pick up the slack and release TW style larger unit scale RTS games.

[Rasix]

I really don't get how yall are jumping on Sheepherder for saying that the devs and marketing need to address the AI. Of course they have to address the AI. The mistake was so blatant that they have no other options but to address it and reassure the populace.

In a trailer? You want big flashing text or movie-voice guy to tell you everything's going to be OK this time?  

There's lots of avenues to get that sort of infomation out.  Your "sell this game to the diipshit masses" video showing cutscenes and gameplay probably isn't the best one.

[Paelos]

Maybe not in the trailer, or as anything but a blurb point when you're scrolling text across the battle scenes: "Epic Battles! Cutting Edge Graphics! Improved Tactical AI!"

It does have to be referenced in articles, discussions, and blogs though. All of those fall under the marketing of the game. People in the know are going to drive the sales of the game via word of mouth, or they will kill it dead if they believe it's the same old story with different graphics.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Well Napoleon was a big sales flop after Empire clocked huge sales #s even though Napoleon was a much superior game. A lot of people checked out of the TW series (or went back to RTW/MTW2 mods for their fix) after Empire, so a marketing campaign that begged fans to come back because they fixed everything wouldn't be a bad idea. 

One of the reasons the TW community was hyped up for Empire was that CA talked up how they fixed  the campaign AI issues that bogged MTW2, completely overhauled the engine, integrated tactical & strategic shells, etc. When that turned out to be a load of garbage and the AI was possibly the worst yet, a lot of people felt pretty burned.

I think you are underestimated how important the community following is for this game series. They are already very peeved by the lack of modding ability, and won't get fooled by slick marketing lines.

[Sheepherder]

If you go to CA's website you'll find a battle trailer narrated by their AI lead.  Who then proceeds to talk mostly about everything that isn't AI to the backdrop of the hilarious antics of cavalry charging up the slope of a wooded hill to attack archers and winning.

EDIT: From everything I've seen Speedy modding is still in.

[Speedy Cerviche]

oh yeah? I haven't looked into it too closely, but then why are modders complaining so much on twcenter.net?

[HaemishM]

Geeks like to complain when companies don't treat their pet needs as the most important thing ever? 

There are probably lots of complaints in the modding community. Doesn't change the fact that there are still lots of mods out there for both Empire and Napoleon.

[Raguel]

I'm thinking about trying one of these games. For someone who never played one, how would you all describe the game? (It sounds like Civ, but with cooler/real time combat).

[HaemishM]

You have a good grasp of it. CIV with real-time combat.

[Morat20]

I'm thinking about trying one of these games. For someone who never played one, how would you all describe the game? (It sounds like Civ, but with cooler/real time combat).

You can let the AI auto-resolve the combats, in which case it's..CIV.

Pick up the Rome: Total War pack and go to town. You can get it dirt cheap, it's the best of the lot (in my opinion, but I haven't tried M:TW2 yet), and there's not a lot of overlap with anything else.

There's a derth of Roman military games out there.