Cracks starting to show?

[Lightstalker]

My guild is strange, I suppose.  In January we were scraping for 1 10-man raid a week.  In May we're running 4 a week and just got Nef down (after Heroic Halfus).  Still no Al'Akir, that fight is pants and I don't care to do it... ever.

Down 600k subscribers, except us, we're up at peak membership again.  We're all collections of RL friends, so I know that these are groups of people who left WoW at some point in the past and have returned now in the Doldrums of Cataclysm of all times.  We rocked the Realm First level 25 guild... by 3 days? so clearly we're not representative of the trend on our server or in the game, just sayin some folks are coming back to the game even now when everything is so horrible.  Of course, it could also be the economy, stupid, what with prolonged periods of unemployment cutting into the ability to loaf around playing WoW all the time.

Clearly the raiding isn't that challenging if we can support 4 different teams, a lot of those guys can't fight their way out of their own socks.  The annoying part of Cata content is, as always, the clumsy UI.  The single hardest part of Nefarian is jumping up on a pedastal during phase 2.  Al'Akir is just an exercise in annoyance with the movement and camera issues involved.  Even Magmaw goes to shit when folks don't understand the UI of the chains mechanic - though it is funny when he bends down the wrong way...  Most of the fights are constant attempts to catch someone in a gotcha moment, rather than consistent predictable challenge (haha, you don't know how to make your character do the right thing, you guys get to wipe now).  It is one slip and wipe stuff, and that's why people don't like it very much.  So I think that's the burnout curve.  Cata is great until you get to the limits of the UI and then it is just frustrating and you quit. 

[Rokal]

[Stuff]

None of what you said particularly matters. You play a soul that is capable of soloing minor Rifts. Many souls out there can't, a total opposite from the leveling experience in WoW where even a holy priest can solo to 80 without any problems and death is rarely something you experience (if ever) while leveling. My point was that it was a more 'hardcore-minded' game than WoW, so if you stopped playing WoW because you thought Cata was too hardcore-minded, you aren't going to find a much softer experience in Rift. Plenty of dungeon/raid content is cut off unless you have the time and the desire to invest enough into the game to be capable of doing it. It's still possible to have fun in either game as a very casual player, but Rift isn't exactly all-inclusive either. What you will find is 50 levels of 100% new content, new classes, and some new mechanics: all very welcome for anyone who has played WoW for the past 6+ years. But Rift isn't going to court the casual crowd, it's going to court the bored crowd.

But it would move the challenge to the heroic raids while giving the game more accessibility. How would that not be a win-win for everyone? Serious people get their challenges faster, and normal people get to raid with a little more forgiveness.

Heroic raids are considerably more difficult than normal raids at the moment, so if Blizzard wanted to tune heroic raids for guilds like mine (average? we're 12/12 as of last week), it would mean that the guilds who did finish 13/13 with the current tuning of raid content wouldn't really have any content to do that meets what they want out of the game. A group of players still gets screwed, albeit a smaller group.

[Rokal]

The annoying part of Cata content is, as always, the clumsy UI.  The single hardest part of Nefarian is jumping up on a pedastal during phase 2.  Al'Akir is just an exercise in annoyance with the movement and camera issues involved.  Even Magmaw goes to shit when folks don't understand the UI of the chains mechanic - though it is funny when he bends down the wrong way...  Most of the fights are constant attempts to catch someone in a gotcha moment, rather than consistent predictable challenge (haha, you don't know how to make your character do the right thing, you guys get to wipe now).  It is one slip and wipe stuff, and that's why people don't like it very much.  So I think that's the burnout curve.  Cata is great until you get to the limits of the UI and then it is just frustrating and you quit. 

Those platforms on Nef are the bane of my guild's existence. 1/5 attempts end early because someone wasn't able to get on their platform. That said, it's the closest of the examples you gave to an 'instant wipe', and it's still something you can recover from especially if it was dps. I agree that it's a pretty terrible design for the fight though, since you are essentially fighting against the camera and bad swim controls as opposed to some creative mechanic. Al'Akir is a pretty fun fight imo, and very forgiving. If you get sucked into a WW or jump off, it just takes you out of the fight for ~10 seconds. It's often a problem, but it's far from an instant wipe. The only camera stuff really comes in P3 with the lightning clouds, and if 70% of your raid dies in P3 it's still pretty easy to win. Mag'maw... eh, you can have 3-4 people try to click it each time, and you'll never end up wiping because of one person's mistake again (unless the person that does do Rodeo doesn't know how to press 1 on their keyboard and aim at the giant gd spike).

[Sheepherder]

Then the normal 5 mans should give good enough gear to raid in.

Yeah, the shitty side effect here is that it would end up making the raids easier than they are, and I like how they are balanced now. You'd still gear up in heroics because it would make the raid content that much easier if you could walk into the raid with full 359 gear even if that's what the bosses dropped. Hell, people felt like they needed to do arena in TBC because it made raid content that much easier. I'd have been in favor for a less dramatic power increase between normal 5-man and heroic 5-man gear though. Let's say normal mode dropped 342 gear and heroics dropped 346. That way raids could be balanced for 342 gear and you wouldn't feel like you *needed* to do heroic 5-mans to raid, but you'd still get a reward from doing the heroics without the reward being big enough to have a huge effect on the difficulty of raid content.

So for raids to be fun for you they have to drop exclusive top tier gear?

Does the though of plebians running around in purples hurt your epeen?

[Rokal]

So for raids to be fun for you they have to drop exclusive top tier gear?

Does the though of plebians running around in purples hurt your epeen?

Yes, my enjoyment of the game depends entirely on having gear 3-4 item levels higher than everyone else, you read my post perfectly  

[WindupAtheist]

Rokal is faux-hardcore. He's into the raiding game deeply enough to be 12/12 in normals, but doesn't want to have to do heroic raids because they're too hard. Oh irony.

 

Faux-hardcores are always a lot more annoying than real hardcores, too. They're typically the ones shitting up the forums calling people bads and ranting about how this or that is too easy. Real hardcores are off beating on real hardcore shit, don't really give too much of a damn about normals, and don't give the least bit of a fuck about five-mans because they know they're going to be facerolling them no matter WHAT Blizzard does.

How many times during Wrath did you see some faux-hardcore douchebag e-peen junkie whining about how being able to whip through heroics meant the game was too easy? Often enough. How many times did you see a genuine hardcore complaining that he had just killed heroic Lich King and thought THAT was too easy? It's the internet so maybe it happened SOMEWHERE, but basically fucking never.

[Sheepherder]

Yes, my enjoyment of the game depends entirely on having gear 3-4 item levels higher than everyone else, you read my post perfectly  

So why do you think that anyone running heroics should be shafted compared to raiders?  Don't they deserve a full 13 ilevels for doing it hardmode?  On second though, why even hand out 359 gear to raiders?  Shouldn't they be getting one or two drops of 346 gear per five people, just like the other endgame?

[caladein]

How many times during Wrath did you see some faux-hardcore douchebag e-peen junkie whining about how being able to whip through heroics meant the game was too easy? Often enough. How many times did you see a genuine hardcore complaining that he had just killed heroic Lich King and thought THAT was too easy? It's the internet so maybe it happened SOMEWHERE, but basically fucking never.

The latter is because almost all the challenge of Heroic ICC was wrapped up in HLK.  The rest of the instance was balls.

Generally though, I agree with WUA.  There are reasons some high-end raiders don't like "easy" dungeon content to exist, but a decent part of that is actually a dislike of in-expansion gear resets (because of an affect they have on the high-end raid game or just out of spite) and therefore not really about dungeons themselves.

Which reminds me... in a way they have gone back to an idea GC said they scrapped in Wow, Dungeons are Hard!

Second, there are only a few level-85 normal dungeons. For a level-85 player who isn’t ready for Heroics but wants to run dungeons, these can get old pretty quickly. Perhaps another way to handle it would have been to have introductory Heroics and harder Heroics. We’ve also flirted with having three difficulty levels before, but that does add an extra level of content to develop and complexity to explain.

That's effectively what we have now with original heroic dungeons and the new ones (the third being the level 85 normals).  Original set of heroics are pretty faceroll now (although Stonecore still eats dumb players alive) and the ZA/ZG ones are more in line with the way heroic dungeons were at launch.  Unless they keep releasing new five-mans at a decent clip, this fun period for people like me will also pass, but the fact we even had it again at all is sort of nice .

[Paelos]

Heroic raids are considerably more difficult than normal raids at the moment, so if Blizzard wanted to tune heroic raids for guilds like mine (average? we're 12/12 as of last week), it would mean that the guilds who did finish 13/13 with the current tuning of raid content wouldn't really have any content to do that meets what they want out of the game. A group of players still gets screwed, albeit a smaller group.

I think most people would be ok with that, including yourself long term. Sure it would be easier on the front end for the first 6 months of the expansion, and honestly if we're thinking tuning it would mean your guild moves on to some heroic content. Heroics right now are ridiculous, and nobody is getting anywhere with them. To say we'd be screwing the 13/13 people is a rather small point as that's 0.69% of the raiding population. Hell, only 10% of raiders right now are even involved in heroic raids with any kind of success.

It puts the emphasis on making the smaller group wait for their "fun" as the patch releases bring things up to the level of difficulty Blizzard wants. The 13/13 heroic groups aren't leaving. Hell, they've been done with the content since March.

[Xanthippe]

[Stuff]

None of what you said particularly matters. You play a soul that is capable of soloing minor Rifts. Many souls out there can't, a total opposite from the leveling experience in WoW where even a holy priest can solo to 80 without any problems and death is rarely something you experience (if ever) while leveling. My point was that it was a more 'hardcore-minded' game than WoW, so if you stopped playing WoW because you thought Cata was too hardcore-minded, you aren't going to find a much softer experience in Rift. Plenty of dungeon/raid content is cut off unless you have the time and the desire to invest enough into the game to be capable of doing it. It's still possible to have fun in either game as a very casual player, but Rift isn't exactly all-inclusive either. What you will find is 50 levels of 100% new content, new classes, and some new mechanics: all very welcome for anyone who has played WoW for the past 6+ years. But Rift isn't going to court the casual crowd, it's going to court the bored crowd.

Don't be a twat, Rokal.

Players in Rift can have up to 5 souls.  Of course I play a soul that can solo rifts, if I'm out soloing rifts.  Every class has the capability of having a soul that can solo rifts.  3 of 4 classes have the capability of healing, 2 of them healing instances/raids.  3 of 4 classes have the capability of tanking.  There is far, far more variation among the classes than you seem to understand.

I'm a casual, and I'm having fun in Rift.  I have not gotten the message from the Rift devs that I'm playing wrong, or that I need to learn to play in order to have fun - I've managed to have fun in Rift without any instruction from the devs at all and without changing my playstyle.

I'll say this again, because you seem to have failed to understand it.  Some WoW players - like me - left WoW not because it is "too hard" but because it is "not fun."  Rift "is fun" for some of those people.  For you, WoW fanboy extraodinaire, to dismiss what I say about Rift and to assume the mantle of Rift authority when you're lacking the most basic understanding of the game is pathetic.

I get that you're having fun in WoW.  Good for you.  You're wrong about Rift.  Rather, I suppose I should say, none of what you say about Rift particularly matters.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Rokal is faux-hardcore. He's into the raiding game deeply enough to be 12/12 in normals, but doesn't want to have to do heroic raids because they're too hard. Oh irony.

 

Faux-hardcores are always a lot more annoying than real hardcores, too. They're typically the ones shitting up the forums calling people bads and ranting about how this or that is too easy. Real hardcores are off beating on real hardcore shit, don't really give too much of a damn about normals, and don't give the least bit of a fuck about five-mans because they know they're going to be facerolling them no matter WHAT Blizzard does.

How many times during Wrath did you see some faux-hardcore douchebag e-peen junkie whining about how being able to whip through heroics meant the game was too easy? Often enough. How many times did you see a genuine hardcore complaining that he had just killed heroic Lich King and thought THAT was too easy? It's the internet so maybe it happened SOMEWHERE, but basically fucking never.

/sad
I'm a hardcore player.  I have been in truly hardcore guilds and faux hardcore guilds and everything above is painfully true.  Real hardcore guilds do NOT give a fuck while those who have 1-2 heroic bosses down and may be best on their server because of it, act like children.

I have since severely cut myself back on gaming to deal with real life and as such have not been in a true hardcore guild in some time. It's actually the near hardcore guilds that made me quit the game(i resubbed this month just for the troll dungeons, I'm weak)

[Nebu]

Some WoW players - like me - left WoW not because it is "too hard" but because it is "not fun."  Rift "is fun" for some of those people.  

What's sad is that ex-WoW players are doing everything they can to turn Rift into WoW.  Dungeon runs are now about DPS-parsing and booting people, faux elites raging on the forums, and the game being dumbed down each patch to appeal to those that don't want a learning curve.   

[Rendakor]

It's like EQ2 all over again.

[caladein]

Some WoW players - like me - left WoW not because it is "too hard" but because it is "not fun."  Rift "is fun" for some of those people.  

What's sad is that ex-WoW players are doing everything they can to turn Rift into WoW.  Dungeon runs are now about DPS-parsing and booting people, faux elites raging on the forums, and the game being dumbed down each patch to appeal to those that don't want a learning curve.  

Completely off-topic, but I don't quite see how one can be pro-learning curve but anti-analytics.  Well, actually I can, although then I'm confused as to the appeal of a game-as-mystery-cult.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I played rift pretty hardcore but the problem is the same as wow. Once you reach a certain gear level(full teir1 in the case of rift) progression on a personal level drops to a crawl. Suddenly you're max crafting, you have all the gear you can get from 'casual' dungeons and the only thing left is either raid or re-roll. Wow's biggest problem right now is that they think raiding is their ultimate endgame when raiding as a philosophy for many gamers is dying out. People want to log on and have fun, not organize groups.

[squirrel]

I played rift pretty hardcore but the problem is the same as wow. Once you reach a certain gear level(full teir1 in the case of rift) progression on a personal level drops to a crawl. Suddenly you're max crafting, you have all the gear you can get from 'casual' dungeons and the only thing left is either raid or re-roll. Wow's biggest problem right now is that they think raiding is their ultimate endgame when raiding as a philosophy for many gamers is dying out. People want to log on and have fun, not organize groups.

Full tier  1 is only about 1/2 way in gear progression FYI. You don't raid until you're full tier 2 generally. And there is 10 man expert rifts that drop pre raid gear. And if you like pvp there's 6 gear ranks there.

Nonetheless you're right that at some point if you want new gear you have to raid. But it's nowhere near when you have full T1.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I played rift pretty hardcore but the problem is the same as wow. Once you reach a certain gear level(full teir1 in the case of rift) progression on a personal level drops to a crawl. Suddenly you're max crafting, you have all the gear you can get from 'casual' dungeons and the only thing left is either raid or re-roll. Wow's biggest problem right now is that they think raiding is their ultimate endgame when raiding as a philosophy for many gamers is dying out. People want to log on and have fun, not organize groups.

Full tier  1 is only about 1/2 way in gear progression FYI. You don't raid until you're full tier 2 generally. And there is 10 man expert rifts that drop pre raid gear. And if you like pvp there's 6 gear ranks there.

Nonetheless you're right that at some point if you want new gear you have to raid. But it's nowhere near when you have full T1.

I use T1 as the breaking point because T2 groups generally take the same amount of organization and coordination as raids, in that casuals need not apply.

[Xanthippe]

Some WoW players - like me - left WoW not because it is "too hard" but because it is "not fun."  Rift "is fun" for some of those people.  

What's sad is that ex-WoW players are doing everything they can to turn Rift into WoW.  Dungeon runs are now about DPS-parsing and booting people, faux elites raging on the forums, and the game being dumbed down each patch to appeal to those that don't want a learning curve.   

I've heard the complaining on the 50 channel about the dumbing down of the instances, but haven't paid a great deal of attention to it since I don't instance much (the couple I have done bored me - too long, too much trash).  Likewise the dps parsing/booting people for not performing.  It doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game because that's not the game that I play.

I play the same game that I enjoyed playing in WoW (until I didn't): the auction house minigame; crafting minigame; collecting artifacts; chasing achievements; exploring to find and solve puzzles, cairns, rare mobs and so on; rifting/invasions; and warfronts.  "End game" and chasing equipment isn't that important for me and never really has been.  Maybe I'm rare, but I enjoy leveling (especially doing warfronts during that time before gear stinks it all up), and I love being able to log in, do something, and log out.  Public groups are awesome.  Nobody counting on me to be there is a huge plus.

How the devs decide to respond to the criticism will be interesting.  So far, it's not affecting my fun, and as long as it doesn't, I really don't care what they do.  Whether Rift succeeds or fails, I can't predict.  I am enjoying the game I'm playing immensely right now because it totally fits into what I want from a game.  (Maybe I'm just not doing it right.)

[Nebu]

I am enjoying the game I'm playing immensely right now because it totally fits into what I want from a game.  (Maybe I'm just not doing it right.)

You're totally doing it right.

I've found that you can play these games quite enjoyably by approaching them in non-standard ways.  We run T2's with cleric and rogue tanks, run T1's with bard healers, and try about any combination of souls just to keep the dungeon runs fun for all involved.  Last night we ran a couple of T2's with a cleric tank, cleric/mage/rogue dps, and a mage main healer and all went smoothly.  

There may be an ideal way to approach the game, but that bores me.  I get my kicks by finding less optimal combinations that still work and bring the players more fun in their roles.  Sadly, this doesn't fit with the faux hardcore ideals.   I'm still struggling to understand the e-peen MMO olympics crowd.  I've main healed every T2 now as a chloro and I still get booted from T1 pugs because "a chloro can't main heal a T1".  Boggles my mind.

[caladein]

Very few players will willingly choose non-traditional and/or "appropriately" geared players to fill a role.  The only way to change that is to force them via automated matchmaking.  At that point, the hurdles for removal should be sufficiently high that nearly everyone will either bail or give it a go.

[Shrike]

Cleric tank? Hmmm.

I remember when LDoN came out in EQ. Our cleric didn't like to just sit around and stare at mana/health bars and wanted to actually do something. So she would pull in some situations. I'd tank on my SK and we basically just acted as a pulling team, then she'd revert to healer when things got serious (which was about 7-10 seconds later). Used to completely mortify some other group members, but it worked and it was fun.

I'm still having fun in WoW--or I should say I found it again after seemingly losing it in this expansion. New server, more character slots to fill with BG twinks...as long as Blizz keeps the new BoA coming and some raid content oozing out, I'm good. I've never much cared what others are up to; I just worry about me. Right now "me" is happy, relatively speaking.

[squirrel]

I played rift pretty hardcore but the problem is the same as wow. Once you reach a certain gear level(full teir1 in the case of rift) progression on a personal level drops to a crawl. Suddenly you're max crafting, you have all the gear you can get from 'casual' dungeons and the only thing left is either raid or re-roll. Wow's biggest problem right now is that they think raiding is their ultimate endgame when raiding as a philosophy for many gamers is dying out. People want to log on and have fun, not organize groups.

Full tier  1 is only about 1/2 way in gear progression FYI. You don't raid until you're full tier 2 generally. And there is 10 man expert rifts that drop pre raid gear. And if you like pvp there's 6 gear ranks there.

Nonetheless you're right that at some point if you want new gear you have to raid. But it's nowhere near when you have full T1.

I use T1 as the breaking point because T2 groups generally take the same amount of organization and coordination as raids, in that casuals need not apply.

I realize that, but it's not the case now. Casuals can and do run T2's. There not much harder than T1 dungeons at this point and lots of people PUG them.

[Draegan]

None of what you said particularly matters. You play a soul that is capable of soloing minor Rifts. Many souls out there can't, a total opposite from the leveling experience in WoW where even a holy priest can solo to 80 without any problems and death is rarely something you experience (if ever) while leveling. My point was that it was a more 'hardcore-minded' game than WoW, so if you stopped playing WoW because you thought Cata was too hardcore-minded, you aren't going to find a much softer experience in Rift. Plenty of dungeon/raid content is cut off unless you have the time and the desire to invest enough into the game to be capable of doing it. It's still possible to have fun in either game as a very casual player, but Rift isn't exactly all-inclusive either. What you will find is 50 levels of 100% new content, new classes, and some new mechanics: all very welcome for anyone who has played WoW for the past 6+ years. But Rift isn't going to court the casual crowd, it's going to court the bored crowd.

Not to derail but you're wrong here in regards to RIFT.

[Draegan]

I played rift pretty hardcore but the problem is the same as wow. Once you reach a certain gear level(full teir1 in the case of rift) progression on a personal level drops to a crawl. Suddenly you're max crafting, you have all the gear you can get from 'casual' dungeons and the only thing left is either raid or re-roll. Wow's biggest problem right now is that they think raiding is their ultimate endgame when raiding as a philosophy for many gamers is dying out. People want to log on and have fun, not organize groups.

Full tier  1 is only about 1/2 way in gear progression FYI. You don't raid until you're full tier 2 generally. And there is 10 man expert rifts that drop pre raid gear. And if you like pvp there's 6 gear ranks there.

Nonetheless you're right that at some point if you want new gear you have to raid. But it's nowhere near when you have full T1.

I use T1 as the breaking point because T2 groups generally take the same amount of organization and coordination as raids, in that casuals need not apply.

Not really, but even if you thought it was, T2s are very easy right now apparently.  Also 10-man Slivers are haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard.  Good content for everyone though.  Great rewards too, on par with 20 man stuff.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Rift endgame is exactly the same as wow endgame. If you consider wow raids and heroics casual then you will consider rift raids and heroics casual. You may argue one is better than the other from a fun perspective but having done both they are mechanically and logistically near-identical and just as casual friendly as one another.

[Zetor]

To be fair, Rift is far worse than WOW at the 'static quest experience on rails' thing (I'm not sure if that was this thread or the cataclysm one, it all melts together for me  ). There is exactly one path to get to 50, and quest hubs are gated just like in newWOW (maybe a bit closer to WOTLK than Cata, but definitely have to do them in order within a zone) When you're levelling a second chara in the same faction, you'll be hitting up exactly the same quests in almost the same order. WOW has sooo many freaking zones (especially sub-80) that you can mix it up and have at least 2-3 very different levelling paths. I have two 50s in rift and three 85s in WOW, and even 80->85 (which is admittedly kind of thin) on my 3 characters was a different experience: one was instancing all the way, one was doing vashjir -> deepholm -> twilight, one was doing hyjal -> start of deepholm -> uldum. In rift it was just the same quests all the way through, even though I pvp'd enough on my second char to have 120k favor by the time I hit 50.. all that did was allow me to skip a few zones.

NB: rifts of course mix things up a bit, but can get repetitive if you try to level exclusively through rifting... I didn't include pvp because pvp-while-leveling works in both games.

[Lakov_Sanite]

away from rift, armor sets seem to be getting both more ridiculous and extravagant with each raids.



Lol spider on head.

[Paelos]

If you put a bubble on the top isn't the priest just a fiery space marine? I mean give him a gun, cigar, and a bubble and I'm hunting zerg, baby.

[caladein]

I like the Priest one, probably one of my favorites next to T8 as long as the clipping isn't horrendous.  The Shaman one (in spoiler) probably looks completely retarded without both the helm/shoulders, but together it's pretty badass.

[Ingmar]

I actually like the warrior set for once!

[Ratman_tf]

If you put a bubble on the top isn't the priest just a fiery space marine? I mean give him a gun, cigar, and a bubble and I'm hunting zerg, baby.

[Rokal]

Don't be a twat, Rokal.

Players in Rift can have up to 5 souls.  Of course I play a soul that can solo rifts, if I'm out soloing rifts.  Every class has the capability of having a soul that can solo rifts.  3 of 4 classes have the capability of healing, 2 of them healing instances/raids.  3 of 4 classes have the capability of tanking.  There is far, far more variation among the classes than you seem to understand.

I'm a casual, and I'm having fun in Rift.  I have not gotten the message from the Rift devs that I'm playing wrong, or that I need to learn to play in order to have fun - I've managed to have fun in Rift without any instruction from the devs at all and without changing my playstyle.

I'll say this again, because you seem to have failed to understand it.  Some WoW players - like me - left WoW not because it is "too hard" but because it is "not fun."  Rift "is fun" for some of those people.  For you, WoW fanboy extraodinaire, to dismiss what I say about Rift and to assume the mantle of Rift authority when you're lacking the most basic understanding of the game is pathetic.

Sorry, you're missing the point I was trying to make. Needing to change souls because some aren't capable of soloing Rifts (or well at all, really) does mean that it is a more 'hardcore' game than WoW. It expects the player to grasp concepts much faster or fail. That was my only point. To clarify again: "Rift is not the all-inclusive MMO like some WoW complainers say it is". If you pick a holy priest in WoW, you aren't ever going to reach a point while leveling where you said "Man, holy priests just cannot do this shit, I need to switch to shadow". In Rift you'll reach this point with many of the souls for group quests and Rifts (or even basic questing can be rough with some of the souls).

I actually like Rift so I'm in no way trying to shit on it, I'm was just pointing out that Rift caters to the hardcore more than WoW in many ways (here is my old post if you wanted the specific examples I gave). If you started playing Rift because WoW had become too hard for for you, Rift is going to present an even tougher game in a lot of ways. If you started playing Rift because you were bored of WoW or just don't like WoW, you aren't who I was talking about. Remember, my comments about Rift were a response to people claiming that players were leaving WoW for Rift because Cata abandoned their primary playerbase (by making content too hard). It's not neccesarily something I've seen repeated here, but it's a comment I've heard and it doesn't really make any sense when you look at the two games.

I played rift pretty hardcore but the problem is the same as wow. Once you reach a certain gear level(full teir1 in the case of rift) progression on a personal level drops to a crawl. Suddenly you're max crafting, you have all the gear you can get from 'casual' dungeons and the only thing left is either raid or re-roll. Wow's biggest problem right now is that they think raiding is their ultimate endgame when raiding as a philosophy for many gamers is dying out. People want to log on and have fun, not organize groups.

This is pretty much what I'm getting at. If WoW had too many barriers to end-game for you as a casual player, Rift has just as many if not more. On top of that the leveling experience asks you to not be completely brain dead, which is more than WoW asks, and may turn some players off.

Edited: clarity

[Paelos]

None of what you said had any logical flow at all.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's blind fanboy rage, just ignore it.

[Rokal]

Edited it to be more clear *shrug*. The post did bounce around, but it's a train of thought from my previous posts about Rift. I don't want to over-quote a bunch of posts (including my own) and end up with something gigantic.