Cracks starting to show?

[WindupAtheist]

I don't want one easy heroic on a separate queue. I just want them all nerfed into the ground and then some more for good measure. Everyone who's like "Baww this is too easy, I need CHALLENGE!" can STFU and go raid. Maybe do their one five-man per day. Don't worry they won't take long.

[Selby]

Maybe do their one five-man per day. Don't worry they won't take long.

That's how the end of WotLK was for me.  I was a little bothered by how easy it was, but it became it's own little challenge to see how fast we could get a certain dungeon down.  I ended up doing maybe one per day and that was only for the money and badge for raiding.

[caladein]

4.1 is going to bring in a new 5 man, which will effectively be Magister's Terrace 2.0 and will add in epics off the last boss I'm sure.

I'm going to assume you mean "will drop loot 13 item levels higher than the rest of the instance" since item quality doesn't matter anymore (aside from disenchanting).  I'd expect the Abyssal Maw bosses to all drop 359 rares unless they really want to tank the price of Maelstrom Crystals.

[Paelos]

4.1 is going to bring in a new 5 man, which will effectively be Magister's Terrace 2.0 and will add in epics off the last boss I'm sure.

I'm going to assume you mean "will drop loot 13 item levels higher than the rest of the instance" since item quality doesn't matter anymore (aside from disenchanting).  I'd expect the Abyssal Maw bosses to all drop 359 rares unless they really want to tank the price of Maelstrom Crystals.

I don't think they've ever had blues be the same ilvl as the current raid content. What you're suggesting would be a first. If I remember the correctly, the Magister's terrace items were epic but with an ilvl below the first tier of BC raids released, even though it came along with Sunwell.

EDIT: They probably did in Wrath though. I just can't recall.

[Ingmar]

They might just drop higher level blues now, since they equalized the stats across rarities at a given ilvl they might be just using the purple color as a raid prestige thing. I look forward to pointless crying on the General forum about that if they do it.

[Paelos]

There is a heavy amount of negative forum talk about Blizzard constantly rehashing old content. Figured I'd toss that in the bitch thread to see if yall feel such criticism is warranted.

[Fordel]

Eh, considering how much talk was given to "I wish they would fix XYZ zone" or "Man, wouldn't it be awesome if ABC raid was converted to a hardmode?" before, it's just the usual counter bitching that's always available on a forum of wow's size.

[Paelos]

I did find it hilarious that when they were taking about ZG a lot of the forums were OMG I HAVEN'T GOT MY MOUNTS YET NOOOOOOO!

Now they are OMG YOU'RE BRINGING IT BACK, RECYCLED!

Personally, I was never a fan of the trolls shit. I like Karazhan, I liked the Hellfire dungeons, and I liked the Tempest Keep stuff.

[Rendakor]

I'm not gonna lie, recycled content doesn't get me excited like real new content does. Naxx wasn't too bad, because I hadn't done it before and at least it fit thematically.

[Lightstalker]

I'd much rather have more recycled content than a badly done under water encounter.

They've only got a few mechanics anyway and haven't innovated well when attempting to mix it up (Kara Chess --> Oculus --> Flame Leviathon) so deviating from the tried and true forumla is probably not in their best interest. 


I completed 23 successful timed ZA runs without getting the bear mount so I should be stoked to have another go!  I liked the default instance with an aggressively timered 'hard mode' of ZA when it first came out.  Raids were even free to pick the order of approach, which I thought was great (since there were at least two viable when learning - viability on farm is less interesting).  The current raid lock out mechanic and hard modes aren't as much fun for me.  So, a return of ZA could be just what Cataclysm needs - or it could be crap falling well short of the original implementation.

I spent a lot of time in ZG too, since our guild couldn't hack MC by ourselves.  ZG was the first glaring example of itemization not mapping to item rarity (ZG Blues > MC Purples), while there is a lot to complain about in Cataclysm, the itemization has been much improved for most classes.  A lot of times necessary refactoring doesn't bring with it the new feature shiny customers clamor for, that doesn't mean that the effort was wasted. 

[Sjofn]

See, I liked Kara Chess and Flame Leviathan. Occulus and Malygos can burn in hell, though.

I like recycling depending on how it's done. Deadmines is "recycled" but it's new bosses in there, and while I know people whine it's too long and stuff, I really like it. Naxx, I probably wouldn't have liked that retread much if I had actually done it before.

[Rendakor]

Lightstalker, you know ZA and ZG 2.0 are going to be 5 mans, right? I don't imagine they'll have serious hard modes.

[Paelos]

I also like chess and flame leviathan because they were on the ground. That's a key point. Ground.

The only failure they had with that was jousting because it was never fun. You could already ride a horse, but you couldn't do the cool "blowing massive shit up" stuff, and it would have just been simpler without the horse. There was no real strategy, it was just running around like a jackass.

Hell I think the bombing run in GB is actually a lot of fun. It's too bad pugs are HORRIBLE at it.

[Lightstalker]

Lightstalker, you know ZA and ZG 2.0 are going to be 5 mans, right? I don't imagine they'll have serious hard modes.

Yeah, purple fountains for the masses.  I was just lamenting that they are bringing back ZA but (likely) not the hard mode I enjoyed the most.

[Ingmar]

I also like chess and flame leviathan because they were on the ground. That's a key point. Ground.

The only failure they had with that was jousting because it was never fun. You could already ride a horse, but you couldn't do the cool "blowing massive shit up" stuff, and it would have just been simpler without the horse. There was no real strategy, it was just running around like a jackass.

Hell I think the bombing run in GB is actually a lot of fun. It's too bad pugs are HORRIBLE at it.

In my experience it isn't just pugs who suck at it...

[Sjofn]

I totally fucked it up the first time I did it, it was embarrassing. It was like I had never done it before, even though we've had roughly ten thousand bombing run type quests by this point. I was full of shame. 

[caladein]

I screwed up my first time too.  I may have been trying to shoot the dragons that were flying around.

In my defense it was like, the day after launch, and my whole group was equally useless at it.  Instance took so long I had to go back to Org to refill on water after burning through a stack that lasted maybe just past the second boss.

[Paelos]

Sooooo, anybody want to debate this expansion and Rift's release have had a substantial effect on retention, because we haven't have a post in here since the weekend.

[Arrrgh]

Sooooo, anybody want to debate this expansion and Rift's release have had a substantial effect on retention, because we haven't have a post in here since the weekend.

People were dropping like flies before Rift came out so it's not all Rift, but they did get lucky in their release timing.

I blame a weak expansion coupled with WoW burnout in general.  Rift clones enough of WoW though that the WoW weary will soon tire of Rift.

[Zetor]

I only have anecdotal data: 3 from my guild are still playing WOW, the rest of us (~10) are playing rift atm.

IMO it's far too early to tell what kind of effect rift will have on wow in the long term, but so far the "shiny" seems to be holding. Give it ~2 months and it'll shake out, one way or another.

[Merusk]

To me it's not a question of "will people tire of Rift" but "Will they go back to WoW once they tire of Rift."  That's what Blizzard should be worried about, and at this point in time I don't see anything really drawing people back.  ZG/ ZA are set as their big lures and I haven't exactly seen the MMosphere lighting up in anticipation of them.  If anything it's more like, "goddamn I'm sick of trolls."

[Soulflame]

I ran ZA enough to get about 15 people amani war bears.

I have little interest in running it again.

[Paelos]

To me it's not a question of "will people tire of Rift" but "Will they go back to WoW once they tire of Rift."  That's what Blizzard should be worried about, and at this point in time I don't see anything really drawing people back.  ZG/ ZA are set as their big lures and I haven't exactly seen the MMosphere lighting up in anticipation of them.  If anything it's more like, "goddamn I'm sick of trolls."

I've seen some happy anticipation of it, but it's tempered by people who wanted another raid instead of two dungeons with worse gear that what they are wearing. If you were lucky enough to get into a raid that killed 4-5 bosses, you already maxxed out your gear and VP. At that point, you're only interested in the dungeon reskins for achievements and mounts.

If you don't raid yet, I could see it as a boost in a way. My main issue right now is that I don't feel that improving my tanking gear slightly has any effect on the raiding game. The people that would have to gear up a lot are the healers and dps since they are the only thing that matters now in a raid.

And before I get the response I expect, let me say that I mean the incremental effect of a point ilvl increase in gear on a dps v. a tank. I believe you are going to get a much larger raid benefit from that point in dps or healing.

[Lantyssa]

To me it's not a question of "will people tire of Rift" but "Will they go back to WoW once they tire of Rift."  That's what Blizzard should be worried about, and at this point in time I don't see anything really drawing people back.  ZG/ ZA are set as their big lures and I haven't exactly seen the MMosphere lighting up in anticipation of them.  If anything it's more like, "goddamn I'm sick of trolls."

This.

It'd be a wonderful time to introduce an appearance tab and housing though.  That'd be a huge draw while people play dress up and deck out their virtual digs.

[Kail]

Sooooo, anybody want to debate this expansion and Rift's release have had a substantial effect on retention, because we haven't have a post in here since the weekend.

Really?  No posts in 48 hours, man the lifeboats, DOOOOOOOOOOM?

Not gonna argue that the expansion has had an effect on retention (what effect, exactly, I'd be more reluctant to commit to without numbers, since in game things look about as busy as ever to me) but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the release of WoW clone number four thousand and twelve is not exactly the dominating factor here. Hell, my WAR guild is seeing more activity recently, too, come to think of it...  It must be because WAR has been so vastly improved, right?  I'm sure people are leaving WoW for what-the-fuckever was implemented in the last WAR patch, it's the only logical conclusion.

[Ingmar]

DA2 is having a much bigger effect on our guild than Rift, I don't know anyone who is playing Rift except Kildorn and he comes and goes like the wind pretty much all the time. But then again, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The stuff that is keeping me personally from logging is non-MMO games (Minecraft, Blood Bowl, DA2, DoW2:Retribution.)

[Lantyssa]

As we said a long time ago, it won't be another game that kills WoW, it'll be WoW.  And it'll still be a slow death, from people just trickling off.  One Blizzard will likely prolong through additional expansions and patches which draw people back, but may not hold them like they once did.

[Ironwood]

Well, I quit.

Expansion killed me.

[Lantyssa]

Or maybe it'll be a long time measured in the life expectancy of mayflies.

[Ashamanchill]

As I've said before, an unusually large number of people in the army play(ed) WoW. Between my regiment (300-400 people depending on current strength), and the people I knew in other regiments, in probably knew close to fifty people who played at some point during WotLK. Of that, I know two that play now, and they are hard mode raiders. None of my civvy friends play any more either.

That being said, I can't find any real objective evidence about WoW's subscription numbers at all, and a WoW Census scan of my server reveals the same numbers as it's always seemed to have.  So who knows?

[Paelos]

Really?  No posts in 48 hours, man the lifeboats, DOOOOOOOOOOM?

64 hours. And snark all you want, that's the longest I can remember seeing this forum without any activity whatsoever in years.

[Modern Angel]

f13, weather vane of MMO sub numbers.

[Azazel]

To me it's not a question of "will people tire of Rift" but "Will they go back to WoW once they tire of Rift."  That's what Blizzard should be worried about, and at this point in time I don't see anything really drawing people back.  ZG/ ZA are set as their big lures and I haven't exactly seen the MMosphere lighting up in anticipation of them.  If anything it's more like, "goddamn I'm sick of trolls."

This.

It'd be a wonderful time to introduce an appearance tab and housing though.  That'd be a huge draw while people play dress up and deck out their virtual digs.

A LORO-style Wardrobe-bank to store all of the cosmetic shit they keep throwing at us would be wonderful.

[El Gallo]

f13, weather vane of MMO sub numbers.

Conclusive proof that Trammel v Felucca is the #1 topic on every modern gamer's mind!

[Margalis]

I've said it before, anecdotally WotLK seemed universally praised, I honestly don't remember reading a single comment that ran counter to the notion that it was the best expansion to date. I've seen a lot of griping about Cata in a lot of places. I think it's probably fair to say that it's the least well-received expansion.

Now whether that means people will actually stop playing as opposed to just bitching more who knows. But it does appear to be a misstep.