Cracks starting to show?

[Merusk]

Can't get a link, as it would be linked to my b.net account.. but hey, I couldn't even bring up the survey again when I tried a few mins ago.

There was a list of 4-5 choices.. none of which really were my reason but the closest was some variant of "I'm not having fun anymore"  It then asked me if I'd tried Battlegrounds, Raids and Arenas or some nonesense.

Know what, fuck it I'm going to reup then screencap the fucker.  I didn't pay close enough attention to give a lot of detail, but I remember thinking "None of these work or are the reason."   It was 3-4 questions in before I got to a "fill out your reason" and that was limited to something like 180 characters.

[Merusk]

Upon review it's not as bad as I first had the impression, but it's not great either.

The first page
This list, however, definitely smells like "We've heard your qqing before, what is it this time?" 

Finally it let me pick the reason down at the bottom.  I was wrong on the length allowed as it's actually 255 characters.  I said it was bad form to push people to play one way for two years, then suddenly decide "No, you're playing all wrong."  It was their fault, their decision and their problem, not the players.

Seems like a reasonable range of questions, but seems focused on a problem with the player(s) not the game.

Pushing people into the LFD tool.. hilarious if your problem is you're at cap and the LFD tool sucks.

These seem reasonable. The list of games to be playing instead was a little outdated as it listed The Sims2. 

Your typical list of problems with MMO players.

Still, as Sanya pointed out once about MMO playing I played for 6 years.  6 vs the 2-3 months other games might get.  I can't bitch too much about things if it kept me engaged that long.

[AcidCat]

It is a shame, after six years of playing for it to end this way.  I have a weird feeling like I won't be back.  After that amount of time I've lost the hook.

For me it's no one thing I can put my finger on, but I am just really shocked that right after an expansion my interest in the game has just plummeted. Maybe I really have just been playing this game for too long.

[Paelos]

I think it really boils down to the fact that they changed everything about how we do what we do. It's easy to cut ties from a world that's completely different.

[Rasix]

WoW has always been a comfortable MMO to come back to.  Often I try other DIKUs, but I find something off-putting so I end up coming back to WoW.  Regardless of whether they like or not, they set a new comfort level with max level dungeon running (and perceived gearing) that they upset significantly with Cat.  So, they managed to make WoW look unfavorable compared to... WoW. Heh.

And yes, it's getting old.  I've played this game for longer than all other MMOs I've played combined (and not by a close margin either).

Still playing, but unless they shake it up, I don't think I'll manage too long at max level.  But it'll be a while before I'm there, my goblin is at Outlands and that shit I can only handle in short spurts.

[Morat20]

I think it really boils down to the fact that they changed everything about how we do what we do. It's easy to cut ties from a world that's completely different.

I would tend to agree. You just don't do that to a player base. They don't like shit like that.

Has anyone ever completely revamped their system successfully? A 'one fell swoop' massive set of changes, not a class revamp or some mechanics futzing? (Let's not discuss SWG. Surely someone else has tried it).

I think the mechanics changes PLUS asking players to basically relearn their monkey reflexes in dungeons was just a bit to far.

[Paelos]

I could understand it if crowd control was important part of anything pve but dungeon-running. Except it's not, and never will be in the raiding game. They are stomping on their playerbase for no tangible reason. Was facerolling heroics for fun really costing them players? The reverse certainly is.

[Ingmar]

The last time they seemed to be starting to lose their grasp on subscribers we got the big 'everyone can raid now' philosophy change, so I'd expect big changes again if they're really bleeding subscribers.

[Typhon]

along with a lead designer change, no doubt.

[Sheepherder]

I could understand it if crowd control was important part of anything pve but dungeon-running. Except it's not, and never will be in the raiding game. They are stomping on their playerbase for no tangible reason. Was facerolling heroics for fun really costing them players? The reverse certainly is.

It's not just the CC.  It's the fact that they intended to make AoE, CC, and threat all work harmoniously in Wrath, then didn't, still haven't, and in the meantime they've made faceroll to victory non-viable.

[Merusk]

From the talking out both sides of your mouth department:

Just hit the ilvl for heroics today!
I believe that this is very much at the heart of the issue, and I hope that you'll reconsider your stance.

Essentially, while you may have crossed the barrier that kept you from entering a heroic instance, that doesn't necessarily mean that your character is quite ready for those encounters until you've accrued more gear. It might be easier to view the minimum item level as a way of preventing those who have little hope of success from queuing, rather than carte blanche for assured victory once you hit the threshold.

If you're willing, you might find it beneficial to spend a little bit more time in regular dungeons, as well as acquiring reputation items or crafted gear, before you pass final judgment on whether healing is the right path for you in Cataclysm. After you're wearing gear that's a bit more appropriate to the challenge that the content presents, you might even find it fun. (Source)

This just proves what most of us have been saying all along; Either Heroics need to be easier or that cap needs to be pushed way up.
Like I said, the cap exists to prevent those with little hope of success from entering heroic instances - not to prevent anyone who might not be ready from facing them. Players with appropriate gear who meet the minimum requirements do have the capability to succeed, though that success might not come easily. For those who are having a frustrating experience, I don't think it's untoward to counsel gear. Gearing up a bit more before tackling heroics is probably a good bet, as it stands to help make their time in those instances more enjoyable. (Source)

[Hawkbit]

Ya, that quote drove me bonkers.  So they put in place a quantifiable hard cap (ilvl) on dungeon entrance requirements, but knowingly set it lower than what the instance requires to be successful?  I just... I don't have words.  It's like signing up for a karate class, a few weeks in they hand you a black belt.  Then you wonder why you just got the shit kicked out of you every day after that. 

[Ingmar]

Ya, that quote drove me bonkers.  So they put in place a quantifiable hard cap (ilvl) on dungeon entrance requirements, but knowingly set it lower than what the instance requires to be successful?  I just... I don't have words.  It's like signing up for a karate class, a few weeks in they hand you a black belt.  Then you wonder why you just got the shit kicked out of you every day after that. 

It is set lower than what the instance requires to be successful in a pug, but you could succeed at that ilvl with a 'real' group. I kind of feel like they should up the PUG requirement a little, and just waive the check for a premade.

[amiable]

...and they are nerfing healing again in the new patch notes.  Jesus, I can't believe this is Blizzard it is so clownshoes.  Welp, it was fun for the month I reupped  (actually it wasn't, come to think of it).

[caladein]

I think it really boils down to the fact that they changed everything about how we do what we do. It's easy to cut ties from a world that's completely different.

I would tend to agree. You just don't do that to a player base. They don't like shit like that.

Has anyone ever completely revamped their system successfully? A 'one fell swoop' massive set of changes, not a class revamp or some mechanics futzing? (Let's not discuss SWG. Surely someone else has tried it).

I think the mechanics changes PLUS asking players to basically relearn their monkey reflexes in dungeons was just a bit to far.

I'd argue that Burning Crusade was a much larger overhaul of fundamental game systems than Cataclysm is.  It almost completely remade the class paradigm and introduced:

• in-combat AddOn restrictions,
• downranking nerfs,
• pet scaling,
• ratings,
• 25-man raids (and the return of 10-mans),
• multiple difficulty levels for dungeons,
• fractional loot,
• Arenas replacing the Honor system, and of course,
• flight.

And it's not like people didn't bitch about Heroic Shadow Labyrinth four years ago either.

[pants]

And it's not like people didn't bitch about Heroic Shadow Labyrinth four years ago either.

I was literally thinking this morning 'While heroics are a lot harder now, they aint got nothing on Slabs' - dear God I had some scary runs through there.

[WindupAtheist]

Every time I log in for a few minutes I consider this heap-of-shit rogue wannabe my ret paladin was replaced with a personal insult.

[kildorn]

...and they are nerfing healing again in the new patch notes.  Jesus, I can't believe this is Blizzard it is so clownshoes.  Welp, it was fun for the month I reupped  (actually it wasn't, come to think of it).

They're upping paladin heal costs. I'm not sure how that goes down when talented (I'd need to compare with a guild pally), but untalented/base spell wise: Holy Light costs the same amount as Heal, but seems to heal for about 20% more. Sadly, wowhead doesn't list the spellpower coefficients, so I'm not sure if Heal scales better or something.

[amiable]

...and they are nerfing healing again in the new patch notes.  Jesus, I can't believe this is Blizzard it is so clownshoes.  Welp, it was fun for the month I reupped  (actually it wasn't, come to think of it).

They're upping paladin heal costs. I'm not sure how that goes down when talented (I'd need to compare with a guild pally), but untalented/base spell wise: Holy Light costs the same amount as Heal, but seems to heal for about 20% more. Sadly, wowhead doesn't list the spellpower coefficients, so I'm not sure if Heal scales better or something.

I don't really care about the numeric effect, all I know is that trying to heal PUG heroics (and even normal) is already an exercise in frustration.  Guild groups/raid groups will be fine, but if this goes into effect (and assuming I don't quit, which is pretty likely already) I seriously doubt I will ever PUG again.

[Selby]

My tank has tanked all of the normals minus VP.  I have zero desire to bother with PUGs.  So I won't PUG or deal with them.

[Paelos]

I got asked 4 times today to tank a heroic random. I shrugged them all off, not because I don't have the time, not because I don't like the players, but because I just have zero fun working all day only to come home and mark up shit while thinking about trash pull mechanics for an hour and a half.

[kildorn]

I've been tanking heroic randoms, and having a decent time of it. But part of it is that I think I officially outgear heroic trash to the point where my two runs through H-SFK haven't involved any CC at all. My main reason to not want to tank heroics right now is a lack of rewards. I can't really upgrade that much from where I'm at right now. I have a few items that could get the normal333->heroic346 upgrade, but the actual gain is pretty minimal. The funny thing is, I still get turned down to tank Baradin Hold, both due to "well the other DK doesn't want competition" or "ilvl 352 min" requirements of hilarity.

I'm rolling around with this as my setup: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/kild/advanced and pretty much walking over most heroic trash. The only thing I don't want to put is stuff like H-GB and H-Stonecore due to punishing mechanics that you can't just power through.

[Sjofn]

And it's not like people didn't bitch about Heroic Shadow Labyrinth four years ago either.

I was literally thinking this morning 'While heroics are a lot harder now, they aint got nothing on Slabs' - dear God I had some scary runs through there.

I know everyone in the world says Heroic Mechenar was the "easy" one, but I fucking hated that one most of all. I'd run MgT with no CC before doing Heroic Mech, that bitch with the fire elementals still haunts my dreams.

[Hawkbit]

Every time I log in for a few minutes I consider this heap-of-shit rogue wannabe my ret paladin was replaced with a personal insult.

Yes, yes, fucking yes.  I was ret in wrath, loved it.  I hate ret so bad in Cat now that I went protection... but I don't want to tank.  I can't stand it in Wow.  So yeah... I'm out.

[Ashamanchill]

The funny thing is that Blizz are creating, almost by design, and 'us and them' mentality out of the whole thing. And who comes back to an MMO, after being told that they aren't the fans that the devs want?

[Ratman_tf]

The funny thing is that Blizz are creating, almost by design, and 'us and them' mentality out of the whole thing. And who comes back to an MMO, after being told that they aren't the fans that the devs want?

I'm starting to suspect that this is WoW's waning, planned by the devs to phase in their next MMOG.

Then again, it could just be incompetence.

[Hawkbit]

It would make sense if their next game isn't 3+ years out and rumored to not be a traditional MMO.  I won't disagree, though... Someone said a few pages back that Wrath would be viewed as WoW's peak success. 

Now that they're losing subs handily, they're not going to get some of those people back.  I think there will be a few people who take a break from WoW, sit back and realize how much time they waste playing and decide to be done for good.  It's also like Ashamanchill says:  quite a few are going to feel slighted and will react accordingly.

[Merusk]

Then again, it could just be incompetence.

I've never been a fan of Ghostcrawler so I chalk it all up to incompetence.   For it to be part of a plan, D3 needed to have started beta/ announce a release date.  It's sure not for hyping the new MMO as their lips are still sealed on that one, meaning it's 3 years out at least.

[Merusk]

I'm rolling around with this as my setup: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/kild/advanced and pretty much walking over most heroic trash. The only thing I don't want to put is stuff like H-GB and H-Stonecore due to punishing mechanics that you can't just power through.

Agility axe on a DK? 

[Typhon]

Then again, it could just be incompetence.

I've never been a fan of Ghostcrawler so I chalk it all up to incompetence.   For it to be part of a plan, D3 needed to have started beta/ announce a release date.  It's sure not for hyping the new MMO as their lips are still sealed on that one, meaning it's 3 years out at least.

And how would that even work? 

Suit: "Bleed some of our fans by making the game less accessible so we can pick them up in our next MMO"
Lead Designer: "ok.... wait, then I'll be known as the guy that 'broke' WoW... ok, that plan sucks"
Suit: "it's simple, we need to make less money now on the possibility of making more money in the future.  Sure, it will fuck my bonus until the new MMO picks those people back up... oh wait, no, that's FUCKING STUPID".

There is no chance they planned this to loose subs.  That is good for no one.

I hate to pull the incompetence card on a job that is hard, but it should have been clear that as they trended the game toward 'more accessible' more folks subscribed and they made more money.  If you want to add harder elements into the game, make them optional elements with bling-rewards so you don't piss off your newly-found core.  Seems pretty straight-forward.

[Merusk]

I never said it was a good plan, only what you'd have to have set-up for that to BE the plan as posited by Ratman. 

It's absolutely incompetence and a misunderstanding of what had happened before.  It's also a reflection of the standard DM tantrum.  "You're not playing the way I want you to, so suck on this!"

[kildorn]

I'm rolling around with this as my setup: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/kild/advanced and pretty much walking over most heroic trash. The only thing I don't want to put is stuff like H-GB and H-Stonecore due to punishing mechanics that you can't just power through.

Agility axe on a DK? 

Beats anything else that's dropped :( Mastery and the trivial amount of avoidance from agi beat.. anything without 200 mastery on it.

[ghost]

Suit: "Bleed some of our fans by making the game less accessible so we can pick them up in our next MMO"

Yeah, this would be a poor business model. 

[El Gallo]

Part of it may be that they believed what they heard from the playerbase.  There were tons of posts saying "I'm an awesome player, I just don't have time to deal with 25 man raids, just make hard 10 mans that give the same rewards as 25s and challenging heroics with great rewards and I'll be just like those guys in uberguilds."  That's what Cata gave them.  Of course, they really meant, "I stand in fire and want free epix."  And Ghostcrawler was a moron not to realize that, but he's always been terrible.

[Rendakor]

The people asking for 10/25 raids to give the same rewards are not the same people asking for harder heroics. Also, heroics do not give "great rewards" in Cata.