Real ID comes to WoW

[El Gallo]

They're a company that's trying to make money and isn't breaking any laws in doing so, that's morally neutral at least.

Best post in the history of the Internet that did not begin with "I have dropped my glass of water..."

It was better than Cats.  Voted 5, would read again and again.  

[Nevermore]

It should be pointed out that while you *can* hide your shit away on Facebook, it sounds like this particular guy *didn't* and that is where a lot of that information came from.

Mind you, it seems that Caladein seems to give no fucks as to giving away his personal details online anyway judging by his profile here alone (RL name as unhidden contact email? Really?) so it's not really surprising he just doesn't get it.

He has his cell phone number listed on his blog page.  Give him a call.

[Fabricated]

Hey girls, if you didn't want to be stalked you shouldn't have posted all sexy in the technical support forum like that

[caladein]

They're a company that's trying to make money and isn't breaking any laws in doing so, that's morally neutral at least.

Best post in the history of the Internet that did not begin with "I have dropped my glass of water..."

It was better than Cats.  Voted 5, would read again and again.  

Yeah, that's poorly phrased (and I mixed up dubious with malicious in my head).  That said, I don't think it's suspicious that a company wants to make the 40% of its revenue stream (or whatever it was) bigger.  That's sort of going with the whole "making money" thing.

As for the number, it's a Google Voice one so I'll probably ignore the call and just read the (hilarious) transcript later.

E: Double posts are fun!

[caladein]

E: Bah, double post.

[Nevermore]

The stalkers... why is it that I'm having a difficult time making that distinction between WoW and *any other activity*? Stupid people that will do stupid things offline doesn't seem to be unique to the internet. Is it because the internet makes it easier to track someone down? That our world is so much smaller and pissing someone off that is thousands of miles away won't matter when they can hop a plane and beat you up? Or sniff your underwear, for the ladies?

There are relatively few activities you do day to day that offer up both the motive and opportunity to be subjected to a stalking situation.  The competitiveness in WoW is one motive.  In a community as large as WoW's, there will also be a small but noteworthy subset that thinks like that /v/ proto-stalker, which is another motive.  Blizzard is now providing them with ample opportunity. 

Yeah, that dude at the bank might know your full name and address but it's highly unlikely he has any motive for doing anything with it.  But with WoW you're in a pool with millions of other people, some of whom might have a motive for using information like that.  I'd rather they not have that information, thanks.

[Sjofn]

The stalkers... why is it that I'm having a difficult time making that distinction between WoW and *any other activity*? Stupid people that will do stupid things offline doesn't seem to be unique to the internet. Is it because the internet makes it easier to track someone down? That our world is so much smaller and pissing someone off that is thousands of miles away won't matter when they can hop a plane and beat you up? Or sniff your underwear, for the ladies?

Well, there's the fact that if I post on their boards, I have passively revealed my name to anyone who reads them. Any other activity, I have to actually TELL people my last name. And yes, part of it is that the internet makes it easier to track people down. If someone hears me say my last name, they have to remember it while they dash to the nearest computer to google it, AND hope they guessed right how to spell it. If it's emblazoned on Blizzard's boards, it's just ctrl-c ctrl-v stalker time (I have a Polish last name people misspell constantly, I totally do consider it a form of stalker defense :P).

I do not, by and large, think someone would see my lady name and immediately get with the stalking, but given I have had people get kind of weird on me after knowing me on the internet for a while before (I am probably far too old and cranky to attract any new lovelorn stalkers, although it's possible I would still get some I WILL MAKE THAT BITCH SHUT UP ones), I think it's entirely possible some ladies would sadly find out some of the people in her guild are Total Creeps once they have an easy way to track her down. It doesn't help that stalking is often treated like it's supposed to be a compliment and almost never taken as seriously as it should be before it gets REALLY creepy because c'mon he's just showing how much he cares, you bitch.

[Malakili]

Yeah, I think Zuckerman is just plain wrong based on what he said in that article.  Let me summarize: People behave differently in different social situations, hanging out with friends, at a family reuinion, at work, playing games on the internet, whatever.  Different social rules apply.  At work, professionally I need to be serious, with my family I can be more relaxed but generally a little more reserved, and with my friends I can say whatever the hell I want.  The problem is that when your with friends social situation collide with your professional social situation, you get behavior that seems inappropriate because its been brought into a foreign situation.

If you seriously behave the exact same way in every situation, I question your humanity and think that you may in fact be a robot, or an alien, or a robot alien.

[kildorn]

I honestly don't get how Internet Dragons is different from everything else one does and that if I put up something that says "This is who I am." and intentionally hide something, I'm lying to you before we've even met.

If I put up something that says "this is who I am" and omit unnecessary information, I'm not lying. My resume does not include my failed attempt at a highschool band. I'm not lying about the fact that I am a terrible guitar player, I'm simply not including irrelevant information. My conversations at a party do not include the every detail of my work (hell, probably because I signed something that says I can't tell everyone everything I do. I'm a contractually bound liar!)

If you hide something, you're not necessarily lying. If you hide something relevant to the question at hand, you may be. But my tax forms are sitting behind a password. Does that mean I'm lying to everyone I know about my taxes? No. It means they don't need to know it, so it doesn't come up.

The idea that all information wants to be free is silly. Namely because there is plenty of information that doesn't need to nor want to be free. Your password, for example, is information. And it's relevant to posting on an internet forum. But I don't think anyone is going to imply you're a lying liar who lies if you fail to post your password for all to see. Same with your credit card number, or any other item which may not actually be needed in any particular conversation.

[proudft]

How am I supposed to talk to you if I don't know your blood type?   

[Ingmar]

If you seriously behave the exact same way in every situation, I question your humanity and think that you may in fact be a robot, or an alien, or a robot alien.

At the same time if you behave in such a way when anonymous that wouldn't be acceptable in *any* normal social situations, then I submit to you that you are just an asshole - regardless of any "oh well he's perfectly nice in person" sort of defense. Those are the people that make me hate anonymity on forums, which in the context of MMOs means the ability to hide your posts on a level 1 alt or whatever. I think the real name thing is a weird extra step beyond what is needed to fix that sort of thing, but I don't see any good reason to allow you to hide your list of alts when you step into the forum either. Really the real name thing doesn't really protect against this sort of behavior as well simply because attaching your character names is optional. Now if your list of characters was mandatory and you could attach your RealID optionally instead, then we'd be getting somewhere.

[kildorn]

If you seriously behave the exact same way in every situation, I question your humanity and think that you may in fact be a robot, or an alien, or a robot alien.

At the same time if you behave in such a way when anonymous that wouldn't be acceptable in *any* normal social situations, then I submit to you that you are just an asshole - regardless of any "oh well he's perfectly nice in person" sort of defense. Those are the people that make me hate anonymity on forums, which in the context of MMOs means the ability to hide your posts on a level 1 alt or whatever. I think the real name thing is a weird extra step beyond what is needed to fix that sort of thing, but I don't see any good reason to allow you to hide your list of alts when you step into the forum either. Really the real name thing doesn't really protect against this sort of behavior as well simply because attaching your character names is optional. Now if your list of characters was mandatory and you could attach your RealID optionally instead, then we'd be getting somewhere.

Is it sad that I immediately had VN flashbacks of very specific people when I read that?

[Ingmar]

If you seriously behave the exact same way in every situation, I question your humanity and think that you may in fact be a robot, or an alien, or a robot alien.

At the same time if you behave in such a way when anonymous that wouldn't be acceptable in *any* normal social situations, then I submit to you that you are just an asshole - regardless of any "oh well he's perfectly nice in person" sort of defense. Those are the people that make me hate anonymity on forums, which in the context of MMOs means the ability to hide your posts on a level 1 alt or whatever. I think the real name thing is a weird extra step beyond what is needed to fix that sort of thing, but I don't see any good reason to allow you to hide your list of alts when you step into the forum either. Really the real name thing doesn't really protect against this sort of behavior as well simply because attaching your character names is optional. Now if your list of characters was mandatory and you could attach your RealID optionally instead, then we'd be getting somewhere.

Is it sad that I immediately had VN flashbacks of very specific people when I read that?

Probably not, since VN is the fire in which the sword of my hate was forged.

[Malakili]

If you seriously behave the exact same way in every situation, I question your humanity and think that you may in fact be a robot, or an alien, or a robot alien.

At the same time if you behave in such a way when anonymous that wouldn't be acceptable in *any* normal social situations, then I submit to you that you are just an asshole - regardless of any "oh well he's perfectly nice in person" sort of defense. Those are the people that make me hate anonymity on forums, which in the context of MMOs means the ability to hide your posts on a level 1 alt or whatever. I think the real name thing is a weird extra step beyond what is needed to fix that sort of thing, but I don't see any good reason to allow you to hide your list of alts when you step into the forum either. Really the real name thing doesn't really protect against this sort of behavior as well simply because attaching your character names is optional. Now if your list of characters was mandatory and you could attach your RealID optionally instead, then we'd be getting somewhere.

You're assuming this is an attempt to stop trolling, it isn't.

I think people are upset about this is because it combines, or potentially combines, parts of their life they don't want combined. (Along with a host of other reasons which have been well articulated enough that I need not repeat them here).  I probably should have quoted to make it more clear, but I was responding particularly to Caladein, and the idea that people don't have separate identities.

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, I think Zuckerman is just plain wrong based on what he said in that article.  Let me summarize: People behave differently in different social situations, hanging out with friends, at a family reuinion, at work, playing games on the internet, whatever.  Different social rules apply.  At work, professionally I need to be serious, with my family I can be more relaxed but generally a little more reserved, and with my friends I can say whatever the hell I want.  The problem is that when your with friends social situation collide with your professional social situation, you get behavior that seems inappropriate because its been brought into a foreign situation.

If you seriously behave the exact same way in every situation, I question your humanity and think that you may in fact be a robot, or an alien, or a robot alien.

Something about actors and stages and different parts....

[ahoythematey]

I honestly don't get how Internet Dragons is different from everything else one does and that if I put up something that says "This is who I am." and intentionally hide something, I'm lying to you before we've even met.

Are you into S&M?  Do you enjoy watching digital avatars simulate sexual intercourse?  What's your opinion on anal beads?  Many employers view adult gamers in the same light as they would "sexual deviance", and though it is not fair, that's the world we all live in, you included.  In other words: Welcome to Reality, where people lie about themselves all the time for a variety of reasons.  Stop being obtuse.

[AutomaticZen]

It should be pointed out that while you *can* hide your shit away on Facebook, it sounds like this particular guy *didn't* and that is where a lot of that information came from.

I was going to point this out, but you got there first.

Okay, we're cool.  Just one more thing.  If you want to play an MMO with other people on the internet, is there any other relatively good option other than WoW?  Not really.  So it's not like you can just play a different game because they all monumentally blow, right?

Half this forum is finding the alternatives.  We spend half the time lamenting WoWness in other games (see SWTOR thread).

Again, to clarify, I'm not in favor of RealID.  I'm fine with it as long as it's an option I don't have to use.  Once it becomes the opposite, I'll opt out of WoW.  

A number of us here (like myself) use the same alias across a number of services anyways, so the difference between fake name and real name is completely moot.  The only way to prevent issues in that is to actively police that stuff like WindupAtheist.  In that story earlier, the real problem was a Facebook account.  Or a Twitter account.  The real problem is the internet and the fact that this doesn't exist in the vacuum.  

I think people are upset about this is because it combines, or potentially combines, parts of their life they don't want combined.

Which I can understand completely.

[Ningauble]

In most other contexts, especially ones related to leisure time and entertainment, people don't normally disclose this sort of information to the people they are enjoying it with, and if they do so, they do so voluntarily.

If I go to the movies, I don't have to wear a name-tag disclosing my real name to everyone else in the theatre.  If someone is making alot of noise and disrupting the experience, people can complain to the management and they can deal with it themselves.

If I go to disney land and want to ride the Pirates of the Caribbean theme park ride, they don't have a giant red neon sign advertising my name when I get into the seat.

If I go play a pickup game of basketball at the local park, I may give people my first name, but I wouldn't normally volunteer my full name.  And if my name was Humperdinck Q. Lipshitz, I could go by a nickname instead.

This whole thing seems unnatural to me.  I participate in and have participated in maybe a dozen or so online forums over the past 10 years.  Some are heavily moderated and some are not.  None of them require me to expose my personal name or personal email address if I choose not to.

[caladein]

If I put up something that says "this is who I am" and omit unnecessary information, I'm not lying. My resume does not include my failed attempt at a highschool band. I'm not lying about the fact that I am a terrible guitar player, I'm simply not including irrelevant information. My conversations at a party do not include the every detail of my work (hell, probably because I signed something that says I can't tell everyone everything I do. I'm a contractually bound liar!)

That's not what I'm really talking about though.  But if the sign says "This is who I am." and you're actually only showing "This is who I want to be if someone's looking to hire me." then yes, that's lying by omission.  A resume is a different prompt of "Who are you professionally?" then Facebook's "Who are you?"

If someone decides to take into account something that isn't relevant in their decision-making process, that's a problem with them.  Now, if you don't find lying about yourself morally objectionable, or have a different definition of what "lying about oneself" is, that's a different matter.  I don't want to lie about myself to get a job (I will admit in some part because I don't have to at this point in my life).

(And you are a contractually-bound liar, but we're okay with having people do not-good things in systems designed to produce a good outcome.)

[Ingmar]

Since names are the topic now, A+ for using "Ningauble".  

[Modern Angel]

That's not what I'm really talking about though.  But if the sign says "This is who I am." and you're actually only showing "This is who I want to be if someone's looking to hire me." then yes, that's lying by omission.  A resume is a different prompt of "Who are you professionally?" then Facebook's "Who are you?"

If someone decides to take into account something that isn't relevant in their decision-making process, that's a problem with them.  Now, if you don't find lying about yourself morally objectionable, or have a different definition of what "lying about oneself" is, that's a different matter.  I don't want to lie about myself to get a job (I will admit in some part because I don't have to at this point in my life).

(And you are a contractually-bound liar, but we're okay with having people do not-good things in systems designed to produce a good outcome.)

Okay, do you understand that things like RealID offer an insight into "Who are you?" when the question is "Who are you professionally?"

[Ingmar]

Some more speculation as to where this is coming from:

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/zeroday/2010/07/07/is-korean-law-driving-policy-at-blizzard/

Apparently in South Korea, RealID is pretty much going to be required by law.

[Modern Angel]

I think it's a fair guess but it's not like there are no skeletons in the US version because of China.

[kildorn]

If I put up something that says "this is who I am" and omit unnecessary information, I'm not lying. My resume does not include my failed attempt at a highschool band. I'm not lying about the fact that I am a terrible guitar player, I'm simply not including irrelevant information. My conversations at a party do not include the every detail of my work (hell, probably because I signed something that says I can't tell everyone everything I do. I'm a contractually bound liar!)

That's not what I'm really talking about though.  But if the sign says "This is who I am." and you're actually only showing "This is who I want to be if someone's looking to hire me." then yes, that's lying by omission.  A resume is a different prompt of "Who are you professionally?" then Facebook's "Who are you?"

If someone decides to take into account something that isn't relevant in their decision-making process, that's a problem with them.  Now, if you don't find lying about yourself morally objectionable, or have a different definition of what "lying about oneself" is, that's a different matter.  I don't want to lie about myself to get a job (I will admit in some part because I don't have to at this point in my life).

(And you are a contractually-bound liar, but we're okay with having people do not-good things in systems designed to produce a good outcome.)

I don't consider omitting useless information to be lying. At all. My facebook page is a page for my friends to use as a social link. It does not include much information at all. Not because I'm hiding it, but because it's completely useless in the grand scheme of why it's there. "Who Am I" includes my income, my expenditures, my SSN, my dating history (amusingly, I don't believe there's even a field for that in facebook, just current dating situation), how much I paid for my place, who I loaned money to, or any other number of things that are just not publicly needed information in order to know who I am.

Every transaction has a list of information needed to process it. Every social encounter is a transaction (with admittedly rather fluid rules of what is needed). What I'm saying is that not providing useless information is not lying. Willfully omitting useful information however, is.

Blizzard for example does not need to know I'm dating someone. There's just no real reason for it, it's a commercial transaction. The woman I'm chatting up at the bar? If I don't tell HER I'm dating someone, that's lying by omission, even if she doesn't ask, it's relevant information.

Taking the stance that not including EVERYTHING about you at all times is essentially calling everyone on the planet liars, because we don't spend three hours giving backstory every time we meet a new person.

I'm not lying by failing to tell you the source code to a project I'm working on, I'm honestly telling you that no, I can't talk about that. I'd be lying if I told you false information, or acted like I didn't know what code you could be talking about.

[caladein]

Okay, do you understand that things like RealID offer an insight into "Who are you?" when the question is "Who are you professionally?"

Facebook and Blizzard aren't doing that.  The person hiring you is the one conflating the two questions and answers.

Now, if you're okay with preemptively lying to counteract someone being... an idiot (for lack of a better word), then I can't get to angry about that.  Both because it's your own judgement call and because I haven't had to be in that position myself.

[patience]

As someone who has consistently used the same internet handle on most messageboards (the exceptions being gaming forums because of the tying of in-game names to forum postings, the rare time I get banned and using adult forums) this idea of using realid doesn't bother as much. I pretty much already tied my real life persona to my official internet persona.

What bothers me personally is the persistence of this system. I don't want to be reminded someone is online, nor do I want others to know I'm online and friend requests get a bit tiresome especially from friends of a friend and people who I knew in the past I'm not interested in befriending.

My biggest concern is that realID gives ethugs too many offensive tools. Even irl I can rub people the wrong way but when that happens I know it immediately and I usually can resolve the situation or be aware of the threat. If I piss off someone online they'll have a huge advantage in harassing me. That first strike I've seen in news reports has already managed to ruin lives and I'm not interested in that.

Technically this whole realID thing is only for forum postings but there's no guarantee this information can only be gathered through forums. I'm strongly considering on getting my preorder for Starcraft 2 now.

[Modern Angel]

Facebook and Blizzard aren't doing that.  The person hiring you is the one conflating the two questions and answers.

Now, if you're okay with preemptively lying to counteract someone being... an idiot (for lack of a better word), then I can't get to angry about that.  Both because it's your own judgement call and because I haven't had to be in that position myself.

Then I've got nothing. You're dim.

[caladein]

All things considered, you're probably right.

[Ingmar]

but not for Blizzard employees, apparently

This post WILL get deleted, Im just trying to get this information out so other people will realize how much Blizzard is screwing us over.

After a long talk with a few Blizzard phone reps, it turns out BLUES will NOT have their real names posted in the forums due to "Security Concerns." Blues are free to hide from the nightmare RealID will turn these forums into, and yet we, the paying customers, will be forced into it?

Thats right everyone, YOU will have to reveal your real name in order to post on these forums. Blues, on the other hand "Cannot risk having their personal lives compromised by in-game issues" (Thanks, Josh with no last name - thats a gem).

I have already canceled my account and filed a complaint with the ESRB about all of this, I suggest you do the same.

It turns out that yes, this post was bullshit:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/25833934170/i-have-a-question/

[kildorn]

I'm going to take a wild stab at "a large portion of the CM team and anyone else who posts on the forums threatened to quit/lynch the management"

[Merusk]

All things considered, you're probably right.

No probably about it. You're a moron living in a cloud of rainbows and bubblegum roses.  Considering you're an undergrad who has had to deal with zero professional repercussions of anything you've ever done, this isn't surprising.

Make sure you detail the time spent on F13, Blogging and other websites on your resume when you go looking for a job.  Otherwise you're lying and not giving your potential employers a good picture of the 'real' you.  If they're not enlightened enough to not confuse your private life with your budding professional life, that's their problem, not yours man.

[caladein]

All things considered, you're probably right.

No probably about it. You're a moron living in a cloud of rainbows and bubblegum roses.  Considering you're an undergrad who has had to deal with zero professional repercussions of anything you've ever done, this isn't surprising.

Make sure you detail the time spent on F13, Blogging and other websites on your resume when you go looking for a job.  Otherwise you're lying and not giving your potential employers a good picture of the 'real' you.  If they're not enlightened enough to not confuse your private life with your budding professional life, that's their problem, not yours man.

No, the blogging and f13 wouldn't go on my resume but they would invariably show up in a Google search of my name (along with lots of other boring things) and there's nothing I can do about that.  If my potential employer decides to confuse the two, at that point that'd be both our problems .

Edit: Potential employer, and that's being generous I suppose.

[LK]

I've thought long and hard about this, and... well, I can't think about it anymore.

Let 'em do it. Damn the torpedos. Full speed ahead.

Anyone who posts on the forum needs to recognize what they are doing. Women won't likely post due to stigmas. Men with nothing to lose and don't care about their future will do stupid shit. The internet will go on. Every Blizzard employee that posts on the forums and posts the least bit inflammatory or non-PC thing will be subject to scrutiny.

Most importantly, the volume of posts on the forum will go down significantly. I'm sure the mod team that can't grow beyond a certain point or budget will be appreciative, and Blizzard will get its not-shitty forums without shutting them down.

Any B.S. in their implementation (employee names still hidden, as an example) will get them ripped a new one. Then they'll release Diablo III and everyone will love them again even though it's posting Facebook updates every time you get a Stone of Jordan.

Honestly, I can't accept anymore convincing on this. It's the same arguments. They're going to do it; so adjust accordingly.

[Musashi]

Okay, we're cool.  Just one more thing.  If you want to play an MMO with other people on the internet, is there any other relatively good option other than WoW?  Not really.  So it's not like you can just play a different game because they all monumentally blow, right?

They have us by the balls and they know it.  They've known it for some time, but up until now they've been a force of good in the universe.  I had to suck it up and admit I was wrong in the SC2 thread when I was white knighting for them for just that reason.  But they're not the same anymore.  They've turned to the dark side.  Their ends are dubious because they're ignoring a legitimate privacy concern to advance a very dubious ethic that's being espoused by that Facebook dick.  He thinks being anonymous on the internet isn't productive and that the world would be a better place if we all called each other by our first names.  He's wrong.

They're not just competing with MMOs though, they're competing with every other leisure activity on the planet.  If all MMOs go to some objectionable place, there are still other things to do!

As for the white knighting, Simond brought up a good example: I really am on the odd side of this.  I actually do agree with Zuckerberg on this sort of thing (even though I think his company's implementation is bonkers) and it took Lum linking an NPR piece for me to see it articulated.

I honestly don't get how Internet Dragons is different from everything else one does and that if I put up something that says "This is who I am." and intentionally hide something, I'm lying to you before we've even met.

Okay, since I think this is the heart of the matter here, I'm going to ignore pretty much everything else.  First of all, let me just say that I'm okay that you want to be open, and I think that there should be a way for people who want to be open post their real identities on the internet.

You probably don't know any people in your real life that you'd think are capable of some crazy shit.  But what if you do?  You think they wear name-tags that say, "I like to eat people?"  What if that Hannibal Lecter mother fucker is that dude you kicked out of your guild?  I've been a guild master.  I know there are mother fuckers out there who would have done something to me if they knew who I was.  They did plenty of shit without that information.  What you and the Facebook Dickhead are saying to me is, "Maybe I should be nicer to him because he knows who you are."  What I'm saying is no, that mother fucker is crazy, and there's no way a video game is worth him knowing who I am.  Would you let your daughter post her real name?  Your sister?  Your wife?  Not a chance in hell, man.  The difference between posting your info on Facebook and what Blizzard is doing is that if I'm encouraged to give my name out to strangers over internet games, and I even accidentally or unknowingly give them a reason, it will be me who is fucked.  On Facebook, you'd have to try to get a stalker.  On WoW, man, those mother fuckers are out there.

[kildorn]

"shoulda been nicer to them" is also great for guys, but for girls it's pretty much "shoulda been born a dude. sucks to be you!"

Seriously, it's not JUST an internet thing. Go out to a club sometime. Notice the girls in little clumps? Ever wonder why that is? Because there are some creepy fuckers out there, and they're backing each other up while having a fun night out. I object to the idea that they're lying liars if they don't broadcast their phone number and home address to every idiot in the room at all times.

But on a less serious note, from the wow forum thread, have a dose of meta trolling:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Opposers-of-the-Opposition-of-Real-ID-on-Blizzard-Forums/111092162272655