Real ID comes to WoW

[Musashi]

E: Muad'dib, we have mediasign - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/10543100.stm

Maybe I missed when this internet slang became common knowledge, but what is E: ? Example?

E = Edit.  Muad'dip is a character from Dune.

[Numtini]

Nah, I'm sure there won't be any problems associated with this.

And the devs will stand next to their boothbabes and intone that they don't understand why women don't game.

[Modern Angel]

 Blizzard really doesn't care that people are shouting up a storm if it doesn't translate into lost subs, and no one's saying really saying that at this point.

This guy isn't subbed. Any temptation TO resub with Cataclysm is pretty much gone now.

[Malakili]

 Blizzard really doesn't care that people are shouting up a storm if it doesn't translate into lost subs, and no one's saying really saying that at this point.

This guy isn't subbed. Any temptation TO resub with Cataclysm is pretty much gone now.

Same, and as of right now SC2 and D3 are out as well.   I kind of assumed people who are upset about this will cancel.  But I wouldn't say just shut and up not buy it, I'd say, cancel, don't buy the new games AND make a stink about it.  Then, if they go back and make favorable changes, reconsider.

[Musashi]

Yeah, voting with your wallet is nice, but again, thats a practical solution to a single problem, its not a principled argument against that kind of thing *in general.*   Why do people argue over politics instead of shutting up and going to the polling station when its time? Because its about principle, not just about practice.

Because isn't about making a principled argument.  It's about "This change portends a future change that will be terrible!"

If they announce said change, then you can be apoplectic about it then.  But being apoplectic about this change now, if you don't use the official forums, is being fucking hyperbolic.

On top of that, to follow your own analogy, most people are right now phonebanking against the person they're voting for.  It's insane.  Blizzard really doesn't care that people are shouting up a storm if it doesn't translate into lost subs, and no one's saying really saying that at this point.

Do you really think that we're that far out, man?  They basically said it when they said, 'This is only the beginning of our integration with Facebook.'  Do you really have any doubt about what that means?  It means they're going to make a lot of money selling advertising on their Facebook app(s), and they're using your personal information to do it.  If you're cool with that, hey, it doesn't bother me at all that you are.  But I'm the kind of guy who values privacy.  Call me old fashioned.  But I just don't want my Facebook in my WoW.

And quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me that given these changes Starcraft 2 doesn't sell as many copies as they think it will.  Can we talk then?

[WindupAtheist]

I didn't even have myself credited for that Nythrax book under my real name, I'm sure as hell not smearing it all over the fucking Warcraft forums. When I search for my real name on Google, I find six or seven other people with the exact same name shitting up the internet, none of whom are me, and I like it that way.

[LK]

Do you think if people's actions got associated with their names, they'd stop being asshats, and those that don't care will be properly shamed and admonished for being asshats, suffering the indignities and societal pressure from going against the grain?

One of the major motivators when someone decides to behave badly is being free of consequences. Not being associated with your actions is a major boon to avoid consequences for them.

Or is because only Blizzard is doing it, and the rest of the internet is still an anonymous no man's land, that it becomes a liability instead of an attempt to rein in immature behavior? I know this is a bad thing, but I kinda want to see it happen just to see what happens and see what can be learned from it. All this doomcasting... which one's going to be the winner?

Shit, this is actually right in line with Blizzard. This is epic. Whatever happens here could influence internet practices for decades.  Seems like a giant "Fuck You!" to those that support Anonymity and other internet concepts. People will get hurt. But it's change, and change I want to see just for the possibility of a better tomorrow.

E: You know, I keep shifting sides on this debate. It is disorienting.

[Musashi]

Dude.  I like that people are asshats on the internet.  I think it's hilarious.  The hilarity is compounded ten fold when people can't handle asshats.  Furthermore, I think that a lot more people are the same as me than are willing to admit in public.  Which ironically leads us to the debate on the value of anonymity.  I'll just say I think it's really valuable and leave it there.

[DLRiley]

wow self implodes a happy change indeed.

[Modern Angel]

There's no doomcasting. Nobody's really going to give a shit. Christ, people just let their facebooks hang out for everyone to see. Fuck it. The privacy boat sailed years ago. I don't even give a shit about RealID except for it being a marker of a larger move away from privacy rights.

[WindupAtheist]

I have a Facebook, it technically belongs to Mr. Herfderf Fakename or something like that and I use it to talk to like two people. Since Blizzard is ripping real names directly from their billing info, I don't have that luxury here. If I had know this shit was coming years ago, I'd have signed up for the WoW accout as Effyu Notmyname or something and paid with time cards.

Shit, their forums are going to be primarily 15 year olds posting under their parents names because they let Junior charge his account for World of Whatsit and they don't have a fucking clue that any of this is even going on.

[caladein]

Do you really think that we're that far out, man?  They basically said it when they said, 'This is only the beginning of our integration with Facebook.'  Do you really have any doubt about what that means?  It means they're going to make a lot of money selling advertising on their Facebook app(s), and they're using your personal information to do it.  If you're cool with that, hey, it doesn't bother me at all that you are.  But I'm the kind of guy who values privacy.  Call me old fashioned.  But I just don't want my Facebook in my WoW.

And quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me that given these changes Starcraft 2 doesn't sell as many copies as they think it will.  Can we talk then?

The "beginning" of their integration with Facebook was ages ago.  Not just the Armory app, but the Armory itself has loads of APIs that didn't result in any shitstorm.

That's what I don't get.  I don't get why this specific change to the official forums magically makes everything different.

[Modern Angel]

Because, idiot, I did not have to install the facebook app on my facebook.

[Musashi]

Do you really think that we're that far out, man?  They basically said it when they said, 'This is only the beginning of our integration with Facebook.'  Do you really have any doubt about what that means?  It means they're going to make a lot of money selling advertising on their Facebook app(s), and they're using your personal information to do it.  If you're cool with that, hey, it doesn't bother me at all that you are.  But I'm the kind of guy who values privacy.  Call me old fashioned.  But I just don't want my Facebook in my WoW.

And quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me that given these changes Starcraft 2 doesn't sell as many copies as they think it will.  Can we talk then?

The "beginning" of their integration with Facebook was ages ago.  Not just the Armory app, but the Armory itself has loads of APIs that didn't result in any shitstorm.

That's what I don't get.  I don't get why this specific change to the official forums magically makes everything different.

Come on man.  You get it.  Be real.

[caladein]

Because, idiot, I did not have to install the facebook app on my facebook.

So they're going for force me to have a Facebook account, link it up to my Battle.net account, and bar me from using either site's Parental or Application settings, or I can't play World of Warcraft.  Right.

[koro]

http://seewhatyoudidthere.com/2010/07/07/realid-changes-the-very-real-ease-of-stalking-in-the-internet-age/

::(Male Voice)::
MV: Hello?
Me: Hello, is this So-And-So?
MV: Yes.
Me: First and foremost, I want to apologize for calling you at work, and I also apologize if this doesn’t make sense, but are you Sikketh, from Thunderlord?
MV: ::pause:: Yes.
Me: So yeah, that took me about 20 minutes and it was pretty easy.
MV: Wow. Ok.
Me: Also, just for shits and giggles, is your address ?
MV: yep.
Me: Phone number 555-555-5555?
MV: yep.
Me: I know your parents’ names are Name1 and Name2, I know your room is painted blue and I know you have a cute dog. I know where you were on the 4th of July and I know when you got back. Don’t worry, I’m not a crazy, I’m not going to do anything with it, and I’m not going to post your address or anything anywhere. I just wanted you to know that what I did was very easy and very free, from just your name and toon’s name. You have a good day, and thanks for being a good sport about it.
MV: Hey, I did basically ask for it – thank you. I was wrong about RealID.

 

[Trouble]

Do you really think that we're that far out, man?  They basically said it when they said, 'This is only the beginning of our integration with Facebook.'  Do you really have any doubt about what that means?  It means they're going to make a lot of money selling advertising on their Facebook app(s), and they're using your personal information to do it.  If you're cool with that, hey, it doesn't bother me at all that you are.  But I'm the kind of guy who values privacy.  Call me old fashioned.  But I just don't want my Facebook in my WoW.

And quite frankly, it wouldn't surprise me that given these changes Starcraft 2 doesn't sell as many copies as they think it will.  Can we talk then?

The "beginning" of their integration with Facebook was ages ago.  Not just the Armory app, but the Armory itself has loads of APIs that didn't result in any shitstorm.

That's what I don't get.  I don't get why this specific change to the official forums magically makes everything different.

Have you not read the stories about people being made examples of because they were like "herp derp he's my real name and I don't give a shit" only to have their life ripped apart by someone trying to make a point? I've seen like half a dozen examples in the last 24 hours. On Facebook I can HIDE MY SHIT AWAY so you can't fucking see it. You can find my name, my picture, and a small amount of info I've voluntarily shared. I do not want people to know shit about my gaming habits if they know my real name. I don't want people to know shit about my real life info if they know my handle in a game (or game forum). There is a line I do not want crossed and that is the point.

Here's the one I liked the most: http://seewhatyoudidthere.com/2010/07/07/realid-changes-the-very-real-ease-of-stalking-in-the-internet-age/

I may be a decent human being, but it’s nigh-impossible for me to resist a dare like that. I set to work.

With just his first and last name and his wow toon’s name, I was able to find his twitter, facebook, home address, home phone number, work address, work phone number and parent’s names. The whole process took about 20 minutes. I immediately called the house, but no one was home. I sat on the idea of calling his work for a bit, and eventually decided to do so (he did ask for it).

[kildorn]

Do you think if people's actions got associated with their names, they'd stop being asshats, and those that don't care will be properly shamed and admonished for being asshats, suffering the indignities and societal pressure from going against the grain?

One of the major motivators when someone decides to behave badly is being free of consequences. Not being associated with your actions is a major boon to avoid consequences for them.

Or is because only Blizzard is doing it, and the rest of the internet is still an anonymous no man's land, that it becomes a liability instead of an attempt to rein in immature behavior? I know this is a bad thing, but I kinda want to see it happen just to see what happens and see what can be learned from it. All this doomcasting... which one's going to be the winner?

Shit, this is actually right in line with Blizzard. This is epic. Whatever happens here could influence internet practices for decades.  Seems like a giant "Fuck You!" to those that support Anonymity and other internet concepts. People will get hurt. But it's change, and change I want to see just for the possibility of a better tomorrow.

E: You know, I keep shifting sides on this debate. It is disorienting.

The lack of anonymity will keep some of the cowards from being dicks. The people who are actually right up there in creepy or proud to be a douchebag territory? Not a chance. I give to you Facebook, which lacks any form of anonymity, and has promptly shown us all exactly how fucking stupid/ignorant/racist our friends and friends of friends really are.

But the real issue with this is less "future employer googles you, hates WOW players", it's mostly that /v/ link. There are a lot of creepy people out there, and this is basically shoving women into a smaller acceptable area of gaming (just play, NO POSTING, no accepting all those realid friend requests! And they were already in the No Using Voice In Public Groups camp) due to creepy motherfuckers who aren't even putting their information out there: they're just trolling what is available and running with it.

See, I'm all for ending a lot of the anonymous bullshit and bringing down consequences for being a douchebag in gaming. But that's just it: in gaming. You want to link all my characters to my WoW profile on the forums and in game with links to their armory for laughs? GO NUTS. It'll cut down on the level 1 trolls and idiocy done on alts that will never be traced back to your respected main. Yay! But I don't need to know your home address, phone number, employer, and relationship status to shun your alts in game. I only need to know that if I want to take my issues with you outside the game. And that's not cool.

[Ingmar]

It should be pointed out that while you *can* hide your shit away on Facebook, it sounds like this particular guy *didn't* and that is where a lot of that information came from.

EDIT: I should stress that I would prefer kildorn's "just force-show all your alts when you post as anyone" solution to my issues around anonymity on forums, I don't think the real names really adds anything helpful to the process, since I guess people have decided I love RealID unconditionally, which I really don't.

[Fordel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiauaGbxipA 

[Musashi]

Because, idiot, I did not have to install the facebook app on my facebook.

So they're going for force me to have a Facebook account, link it up to my Battle.net account, and bar me from using either site's Parental or Application settings, or I can't play World of Warcraft.  Right.

Look.  They can't force you to go to Facebook and make a profile.  We agree.  But they can make it advantageous for you to do so.  And they can take away an advantage that you have right now if they need it for their dubious ends.  That doesn't concern you?  Oh.  You don't have enough Blizzard Coins to view the Armory, purchase more?  This is BS, man.  There's no two ways to look at it.

[LK]

Suddenly everyone is very ashamed of their World of Warcraft habit and what they've done under the shield of anonymity. They think about what they've done, the people they've pissed off and acted immature against, and how far some people are willing to go to prove a point or get revenge.

All before any of that is possible right now.

There's just too many individual situations and variations on the bad to encompass in one thought. This is a massive... this is something I expect the psychology majors to jump all over and explain to me in scientific terms. Every point I could make has a strong counterpoint. This is a major wake-up call for most people, and they'd hate to lose something they've really enjoyed (which came with it a stiff negative they could ignore but Blizzard can't).

[Simond]

It should be pointed out that while you *can* hide your shit away on Facebook, it sounds like this particular guy *didn't* and that is where a lot of that information came from.

Mind you, it seems that Caladein seems to give no fucks as to giving away his personal details online anyway judging by his profile here alone (RL name as unhidden contact email? Really?) so it's not really surprising he just doesn't get it.

[kildorn]

Suddenly everyone is very ashamed of their World of Warcraft habit and what they've done under the shield of anonymity. They think about what they've done, the people they've pissed off and acted immature against, and how far some people are willing to go to prove a point or get revenge.

All before any of that is possible right now.

There's just too many individual situations and variations on the bad to encompass in one thought. This is a massive... this is something I expect the psychology majors to jump all over and explain to me in scientific terms. Every point I could make has a strong counterpoint. This is a major wake-up call for most people, and they'd hate to lose something they've really enjoyed (which came with it a stiff negative they could ignore but Blizzard can't).

No. That's not what this is about. My friends know I play. My boss knows I play. Half my office plays. I work in fucking IT, it's commonplace. Hell, I'm going to the dorkconvention again.

My issue is that you're basically making the mistake any full pvp game makes: assuming nobody is going to grief the ever loving FUCK out of a system, and building it to be slightly resistant to that. There is a huge difference from someone who disagrees with me on the healing efficiency of GHeal versus Flash Heal sending me a tell or email in game, versus getting a package in the mail from them, or being stopped in a nightclub by some dude I don't know who has an online beef with me.

I'm about as far from aggressive troll as you can get on the internet, and I really really really think this is a bad idea that has not been thought through to it's logical conclusion. I happily share my personal information with online people who I WANT to contact me personally. For everything else? The game has communication systems, use them.

[LK]

But the real issue with this is less "future employer googles you, hates WOW players", it's mostly that /v/ link. There are a lot of creepy people out there, and this is basically shoving women into a smaller acceptable area of gaming (just play, NO POSTING, no accepting all those realid friend requests! And they were already in the No Using Voice In Public Groups camp) due to creepy motherfuckers who aren't even putting their information out there: they're just trolling what is available and running with it.

Identity... god.

It's because it's just so god damn easy to track someone down over the internet if you get a sliver of personal information on them. At the same time, in real life, if you're walking around or talking with someone at the coffee shop, you're not doing anything that would warrant that kind of attention. Apparently being in the same guild, posting an opinion online, or any number of actions *in a game* is enough motivation for some sad fuck to start e-stalking.

This whole thing is incredibly difficult to wrap my head around because of the kind of power that is available to an average internet user's fingertips.

[caladein]

Look.  They can't force you to go to Facebook and make a profile.  We agree.  But they can make it advantageous for you to do so.  And they can take away an advantage that you have right now if they need it for their dubious ends.  That doesn't concern you?  Oh.  You don't have enough Blizzard Coins to view the Armory, purchase more?  This is BS, man.  There's no two ways to look at it.

First, how are their ends dubious?  They're a company that's trying to make money and isn't breaking any laws in doing so, that's morally neutral at least.

To your point though, I've already dealt with that concern before.  FrontierVille is way too spammy when played "optimally" (even with custom Lists), that's how it's designed, and I didn't want any part of that, so I stopped playing it.

[Malakili]

They're a company that's trying to make money and isn't breaking any laws in doing so, that's morally neutral at least.

[Simond]

Look.  They can't force you to go to Facebook and make a profile.  We agree.  But they can make it advantageous for you to do so.  And they can take away an advantage that you have right now if they need it for their dubious ends.  That doesn't concern you?  Oh.  You don't have enough Blizzard Coins to view the Armory, purchase more?  This is BS, man.  There's no two ways to look at it.

First, how are their ends dubious?  They're a company that's trying to make money and isn't breaking any laws in doing so, that's morally neutral at least.

Wrong.

[LK]

No. That's not what this is about. My friends know I play. My boss knows I play. Half my office plays. I work in fucking IT, it's commonplace. Hell, I'm going to the dorkconvention again.

WoW encompasses more than gaming nerds and your situation is different from others. It's why I should avoid blanket statements... I really fucking should.

It's the internet. It's making you act differently than you normally would. You're showing the real you in most cases, and people don't want other people to see that and associate with them. Private vs. Public Self. Only, this will make the Private Self more associated with the Public Self. I can see how that would be embarassing / something most people wouldn't want.

The stalkers... why is it that I'm having a difficult time making that distinction between WoW and *any other activity*? Stupid people that will do stupid things offline doesn't seem to be unique to the internet. Is it because the internet makes it easier to track someone down? That our world is so much smaller and pissing someone off that is thousands of miles away won't matter when they can hop a plane and beat you up? Or sniff your underwear, for the ladies?

[kildorn]

But the real issue with this is less "future employer googles you, hates WOW players", it's mostly that /v/ link. There are a lot of creepy people out there, and this is basically shoving women into a smaller acceptable area of gaming (just play, NO POSTING, no accepting all those realid friend requests! And they were already in the No Using Voice In Public Groups camp) due to creepy motherfuckers who aren't even putting their information out there: they're just trolling what is available and running with it.

Identity... god.

It's because it's just so god damn easy to track someone down over the internet if you get a sliver of personal information on them. At the same time, in real life, if you're walking around or talking with someone at the coffee shop, you're not doing anything that would warrant that kind of attention. Apparently being in the same guild, posting an opinion online, or any number of actions *in a game* is enough motivation for some sad fuck to start e-stalking.

This whole thing is incredibly difficult to wrap my head around because of the kind of power that is available to an average internet user's fingertips.

But you see, I can have a conversation in a coffee shop with someone without divulging that much personal information. If asked my name, it's just Chris. Done deal, good luck finding someone in Boston like that if it turns out I don't really like you. RealID is basically making a casual conversation require authentication to third party observers, to the point where any idiot can track you down later and be a creepy fuck about it.

There are creepy fucks in real life. It's just that you don't casually give them all your contact information just by having a conversation elsewhere in the bar. I mean, unless you're drunk as shit and yelling your digits to someone standing next to you.

[Trouble]

It's the internet. It's making you act differently than you normally would. You're showing the real you in most cases, and people don't want other people to see that and associate with them. Private vs. Public Self. Only, this will make the Private Self more associated with the Public Self. I can see how that would be embarassing / something most people wouldn't want.

It's not making me different. I don't want people to be able to build a rock solid profile of me and everything I do in my life online or offline. I like to break it down and keep parts separate. Most people want this kind of privacy. Separation of personal and professional life. Separation of hobbies from those two. It doesn't matter if I'm not doing anything I'm ashamed of but I still want that separation and I think most people do. Being able to grant specific access in Facebook is how to separate shit out and is why there's been fucking riots over the past few months about the inability to do so. Being able to not link my game personality with my real name is another method of doing so.

[Musashi]

Look.  They can't force you to go to Facebook and make a profile.  We agree.  But they can make it advantageous for you to do so.  And they can take away an advantage that you have right now if they need it for their dubious ends.  That doesn't concern you?  Oh.  You don't have enough Blizzard Coins to view the Armory, purchase more?  This is BS, man.  There's no two ways to look at it.

First, how are their ends dubious?  They're a company that's trying to make money and isn't breaking any laws in doing so, that's morally neutral at least.

To your point though, I've already dealt with that concern before.  FrontierVille is way too spammy when played "optimally" (even with custom Lists), that's how it's designed, and I didn't want any part of that, so I stopped playing it.

Okay, we're cool.  Just one more thing.  If you want to play an MMO with other people on the internet, is there any other relatively good option other than WoW?  Not really.  So it's not like you can just play a different game because they all monumentally blow, right?

They have us by the balls and they know it.  They've known it for some time, but up until now they've been a force of good in the universe.  I had to suck it up and admit I was wrong in the SC2 thread when I was white knighting for them for just that reason.  But they're not the same anymore.  They've turned to the dark side.  Their ends are dubious because they're ignoring a legitimate privacy concern to advance a very dubious ethic that's being espoused by that Facebook dick.  He thinks being anonymous on the internet isn't productive and that the world would be a better place if we all called each other by our first names.  He's wrong.

[kildorn]

No. That's not what this is about. My friends know I play. My boss knows I play. Half my office plays. I work in fucking IT, it's commonplace. Hell, I'm going to the dorkconvention again.

WoW encompasses more than gaming nerds and your situation is different from others. It's why I should avoid blanket statements... I really fucking should.

It's the internet. It's making you act differently than you normally would. You're showing the real you in most cases, and people don't want other people to see that and associate with them. Private vs. Public Self. Only, this will make the Private Self more associated with the Public Self. I can see how that would be embarassing / something most people wouldn't want.

The stalkers... why is it that I'm having a difficult time making that distinction between WoW and *any other activity*? Stupid people that will do stupid things offline doesn't seem to be unique to the internet. Is it because the internet makes it easier to track someone down? That our world is so much smaller and pissing someone off that is thousands of miles away won't matter when they can hop a plane and beat you up? Or sniff your underwear, for the ladies?

I used to agree that being anonymous meant people showed their true selves and acted the ass. But people do that anyways on Facebook, and plenty of people will act perfectly nice in an anonymous setting to try and get something else out of it while actually being total pricks. Making sure someone's actions within the game follow them? I'm cool with that. I just don't feel we need to break the fourth wall as it were to do so. I've never felt the need to demand personal information from the women I play games with, because well, it's not needed to play a relaxing game. It's an escape, a past time.

Hell, I don't need to know someone's home address to play a game of pickup basketball down the street with them. It's an escape, a past time. (shut UP peanut gallery who has met me..)

So why are we suddenly deciding that we all need to know everything about each other to escape into a game together?

[Ingmar]

Look.  They can't force you to go to Facebook and make a profile.  We agree.  But they can make it advantageous for you to do so.  And they can take away an advantage that you have right now if they need it for their dubious ends.  That doesn't concern you?  Oh.  You don't have enough Blizzard Coins to view the Armory, purchase more?  This is BS, man.  There's no two ways to look at it.

First, how are their ends dubious?  They're a company that's trying to make money and isn't breaking any laws in doing so, that's morally neutral at least.

To your point though, I've already dealt with that concern before.  FrontierVille is way too spammy when played "optimally" (even with custom Lists), that's how it's designed, and I didn't want any part of that, so I stopped playing it.

Okay, we're cool.  Just one more thing.  If you want to play an MMO with other people on the internet, is there any other relatively good option other than WoW?  Not really.  So it's not like you can just play a different game because they all monumentally blow, right?

They have us by the balls and they know it.  They've known it for some time, but up until now they've been a force of good in the universe.  I had to suck it up and admit I was wrong in the SC2 thread when I was white knighting for them for just that reason.  But they're not the same anymore.  They've turned to the dark side.  Their ends are dubious because they're ignoring a legitimate privacy concern to advance a very dubious ethic that's being espoused by that Facebook dick.  He thinks being anonymous on the internet isn't productive and that the world would be a better place if we all called each other by our first names.  He's wrong.

I could go to LotRO tomorrow and be content if WoW did something that really drove me over the edge /shrug. I'm sure there are other people who could do the same with Eve, or whatever else.

[caladein]

Okay, we're cool.  Just one more thing.  If you want to play an MMO with other people on the internet, is there any other relatively good option other than WoW?  Not really.  So it's not like you can just play a different game because they all monumentally blow, right?

They have us by the balls and they know it.  They've known it for some time, but up until now they've been a force of good in the universe.  I had to suck it up and admit I was wrong in the SC2 thread when I was white knighting for them for just that reason.  But they're not the same anymore.  They've turned to the dark side.  Their ends are dubious because they're ignoring a legitimate privacy concern to advance a very dubious ethic that's being espoused by that Facebook dick.  He thinks being anonymous on the internet isn't productive and that the world would be a better place if we all called each other by our first names.  He's wrong.

They're not just competing with MMOs though, they're competing with every other leisure activity on the planet.  If all MMOs go to some objectionable place, there are still other things to do!

As for the white knighting, Simond brought up a good example: I really am on the odd side of this.  I actually do agree with Zuckerberg on this sort of thing (even though I think his company's implementation is bonkers) and it took Lum linking an NPR piece for me to see it articulated.

I honestly don't get how Internet Dragons is different from everything else one does and that if I put up something that says "This is who I am." and intentionally hide something, I'm lying to you before we've even met.