Simple questions. Simple answers. Complex questions. Flow charts.

[kildorn]

PoH being single group should not be a huge issue if the groups are arranged properly. It's only a pain if the groups are split in some manner where they're never near other group members (2 ranged, a healer, and 2 melee for example)

I do feel far less useful as holy on average than disc just because I do pretty much rely on heavily hasted PoH and ProM bounces with surge of light procs creating most of my serendipity charges. It's great on a few AE heavy fights over disc (because CoH's smart heal functionality helps a ton), but for the most part instant cooldown shields are my friend.

[caladein]

You didn't mention Renew, which when fully Talented and Glyphed is pretty awesome and functions very much like a Shield: initial heal + future protection.  Also, to quote Bhodi from the Ruby Sanctum thread:

The healing trinket is odd; it's useless for priests, who don't USE any direct healing. Not for druids either, really.

The standard priest thing these days is to keep PoM+CoH on cooldown, then simply renew spam every GCD. On longer fights, you also use SoL when it procs to decrease your mana usage. Don't use PoH, don't use Gheal. Don't use flash heal. In panic single-target throughput mode, use binding heal.

Doing this, I have enough mana to cast every GCD for every fight in icecrown citadel if I weave in an appropriate number of SoL procs. How many to use is based on the fight (and the length), but with 2/2 SoL it's almost always up due to renew ticks.

My sustained HPS is 8-9k doing this. Admittedly, I have good gear, (though I have not enchanted/gemd my pants I got in preparation for the new 4pc set bonus yet), but any priest that is 232/245+ geared should be able to do the same.

Sadly, we're still at the bottom of the charts in terms of throughput - most of my HPS is simple heal sniping except on fights like sindragosa or blood queen.

[Merusk]

Problem is the initial damage plus everything which comes next. Decimate for example some party members are below 10% health after Decimate (especially cloth wearers) even a tiny amount of damage before PoH hits will kill them.

Timing is key for effective use of PoH, if you're trying to use it.  It's a strategy spell in a spell-spammer's game. Your raid tools tell you when that Decimate is about to happen, and that's what you're supposed to use to time PoH hitting almost immediately after the Deci.  If a DPS dies while you're doing this, they simply need more health.. inform them that dead DPS = 0 and maybe some blues or at the least purples with stam might be a better choice than just slotting straight +spellpower.

[bhodi]

Let me just pop in here and expand a bit on my quote from the other thread. I'm a holy priest and should be able to offer you a few pointers. It's hard to give specifics without you posting your armory and/or a worldoflogs parse, but I can give general advice. Sadly, selby is giving decent advice for disc priests but is giving bad advice for holy - sorry Selby, they heal completely differently :(

EJ is also giving fairly bad advice since they have not updated their OP and you are expected to read through thousands of posts to get the info you need. What I am about to say is in there, on page 32 of the priest thread. Probably. If you're curious as to other opinions, go onto worldoflogs or wowprogess, pick a random high end guild, look them up on wowwebstats or worldoflogs, find a priest, look at their healing breakdown and HPS. They're all going to be the same percentages - around 40% renew, 25% PoM 25% CoH and the rest "other".


The standard priest thing these days is to spec for the two improved renew talents, keep PoM+CoH on cooldown, then simply renew spam every GCD. On longer fights, you also use SoL when it procs to decrease your mana usage. Don't use PoH except on a long windup massive damage spell you can see coming. Don't use Gheal. Don't use flash heal. In panic single-target throughput mode, use binding heal if you absolutely have to (you shouldn't, almost ever). Don't use PW:S, ever, unless you're using it for the body and soul speed boost. That GCD is better spent on a renew.

I've spec'd very aggressively towards this end (no divine fury or empowered/improved healing) but you don't need to go that far. All you REALLY need is the 2 renew talents and the renew glyph.

This spec is much more effective for a number of reasons that I can get into unreasonable levels of detail if you're curious, but it boils down to the fights in IC being large amounts of steady AoE damage to the raid which is handled better by HoTs than by large burst healing. With the two talents+renew glyph, a renew gives about 3/4 as a flash heal when you count the initial heal plus the first tick a second later. The initial hit also lands faster than a flash heal making it much more valuable for reactionary saves. All these reasons make it very very viable in the current raiding environment.

To handle decimate, you can keep two groups alive by yourself.  What you do is 8-10 seconds before the decimate, renew all 5 people in one group, throw a PoM out, and then start casting PoH so that it finishes casting just as the decimate lands. Then, immediately CoH the same group and continue spamming renews on anyone critical. Optionally, you can GS the tank, and even more optionally, you can just renew spam both groups and not cast PoH at all, and instead just cast CoH-> PoM again as soon as decimate hits.

For general large amounts of damage, nothing beats PoM > CoH > Renew on a priority system. If you haven't tried renew spec, I URGE you very strongly to try it out and see if you like it (you will). Depending on your mana regen situation, you'll want to weave in SoL'd flash heal instead of renew when it's up (with 2/2 it's ALWAYS up, with 1/2 you should be able to just cast it while it's up instead of renew.) Follow the A.B.Cs - Always Be Casting. keep renews up on the tank and the DPS that tends to pull aggro.

[Selby]

sorry Selby, they heal completely differently :(

I know.  I just know that as disc I never have any mana issues or healing issues.  Not sure what the deal is ;-)

[K9]

Thanks for the comments Bhodi; I'm disc about 90% of the time, but I'll switch up a few things in my holy spec and give this a go.

I've spec'd very aggressively towards this end (no divine fury or empowered/improved healing) but you don't need to go that far. All you REALLY need is the 2 renew talents and the renew glyph.

Why take one point in Serendipity over Desperate Prayer? I don't use DP much, but the times I do I'm glad of it. Equally, why max out healing focus. I see that one point is possibly needed to get deeper in the tree, but if you are solely using Renew, ProM and CoH for the bulk of your healing pushback is a non-issue.

[Jeff Kelly]

Here's the armory link for those interested

My Level 80 Priest:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lordaeron&cn=Nigeth

I am also interested in any socketing/enchanting tips you can give.

Appreciated the healing tips so far BTW. Thanks

[Selby]

I am also interested in any socketing/enchanting tips you can give.

I use Rawr for analysis to see what gives better performance based on gems.  That said, I tend to go straight +Int or +Haste for yellows (there's a limit point for each), +SP for red, and some combo of either +SP or +Spirit for blues.  I am not sure the +crit gems are optimal for a priest, but someone who has done more math or has more experience can probably tell you.  I basically try to gem so that my spells cast as fast as possible, give me the biggest mana pool, and have decent mana regen (helps from running out in those long fights).  My mage is the exact same way, except more focus on haste and none on mana regen, Int, or crit.

[Wolf]

Simcraft is created and maintained by shadow priests, so I'm going to guess it works great for lesser priests too. I just know rawr is totally worthless for me :(

[K9]

The rule of thumb I used for holy priests was to keep crit and haste roughly equal. Maybe that's changed now though.

[bhodi]

Why take one point in Serendipity over Desperate Prayer? I don't use DP much, but the times I do I'm glad of it. Equally, why max out healing focus. I see that one point is possibly needed to get deeper in the tree, but if you are solely using Renew, ProM and CoH for the bulk of your healing pushback is a non-issue.

Good questions! The reason for the first is simple; When things go bad, I don't have a GCD to waste only on myself. My panic button is a healthstone and stoneform, so I'll either fade or mash that and then spam binding heal, or mash it and hit myself with a renew. Plus, there are other healers in the raid doing the same thing. I'll get a bubble from our disc priest and a rejuv instantly.

As for healing focus, there's really no where else to put the points, since they have to be in the first 3 tiers; my only option is desperate prayer, but I'd really rather not be interrupted during my binding heal or rare PoH cast.

[bhodi]

I am also interested in any socketing/enchanting tips you can give.

The rule of thumb I used for holy priests was to keep crit and haste roughly equal. Maybe that's changed now though.

In general, rawr is crappy at seeing the big picture and should only be used as a general guideline and for item-by-item geming advice.

For holy priests, gemming is pretty simple. Gem for +INT until you have "enough" and then gem for +sp/haste or +sp/crit as fits your taste. Keep socket bonuses of +7SP or more, generally ignore socket bonuses of +spirit unless they are really big and/or you don't have enough regen yet.

"Enough" should be what gets you through the longest battles chain-casting, including using your shadowfiend. This can vary from person to person and from guild to guild as some have more replenishment than others and some people use more SoL than others. Plus gear heavily affects this of course - the more gear you get, the more int you have and the less you'll need to gem for it. When I was in 226 gear in naxx I was about half gemmed for INT, now I have one holdover gem from a belt which I haven't gotten rid of yet. I am of course very aggressive and often end heavy healing bosses like blood queen with an empty mana pool. I consider my mana hymn to be a last resort but occasionally I'll end up needing to use it.

Haste Versus Crit is personal preference, though keep in mind that haste is a +throughput/-regen stat where crit is +throughput/+regen (through more SoL). I am solidly on the 'haste' side of the 'haste/crit' debate, since 2/2 SoL is more regen than you'll never need and you're FAR more likely to save someone with a faster reaction (since you're always GCD locked) than with +100 extra health on your heal. Also, haste helps with being able to spam more renews on more people before a big blow. That said, crit is still valuable and I don't turn down gear just because it has crit on it. Some people also gem straight haste, ignoring red socket bonuses. I'm not really at that point, either.

For shadowpriests, point for point haste is better than crit ever since they added dot scaling.

[Minvaren]

Ok, so some judicious regemming got me above 32k HP unbuffed.  This seemed like a good number, so I decided to finally run HoR reg yesterday (and as a tank, first shot).  I had read through everything online first, so there were few surprises, and it was a near faceroll overall.  And 3/5 people came in saying "I JUST NEED X," heh.

The only issue I ran into - LoS tricks on the first phase.  The rest of the party hid in the corner of the alcove behind boss #1, but the waves of trash ignored me standing in front of everyone and aimed right for the clothies.  Nearly had a wipe on the first two waves until I figured out what was going on.  Are there any silly tricks that you can do to get the waves on you first?  Was it the casters casting "late" (including the HoTs on incoming) that skewed the aggro table?  Other suggestions?

[Ingmar]

HoTs will do it if they tick before you've done anything, for sure.

[K9]

The corner strategy is really inferior to tanking in the entrance; people prefer it because it can make it easier for the tank to gather adds, but given the impatience of most players the ranged adds will still be at range by the time they break LoS, so you'll still have to run and gather them.

Hot's and spells like Prayer of Mending will generate aggro very early in the fight, if you haven't had time to build threat on all the mobs then you can have mobs going after your healer and such. How you deal with that really depends on what type of tank you are.

In general though, playing from the entrance is your best strategy.

[kildorn]

Warlocks also completely fuck aggro over, especially if they pre LT(rank1) for the buff, and their armor heals them for a trivial amount.

[Sheepherder]

Nearly had a wipe on the first two waves until I figured out what was going on.  Are there any silly tricks that you can do to get the waves on you first?  Was it the casters casting "late" (including the HoTs on incoming) that skewed the aggro table?

Buff aggro.  A mob with 0 threat will immediately target the first player to cast something, even if that spell generates no threat.

[Minvaren]

The corner strategy is really inferior to tanking in the entrance; people prefer it because it can make it easier for the tank to gather adds, but given the impatience of most players the ranged adds will still be at range by the time they break LoS, so you'll still have to run and gather them.

It appears you're right - I ran this again last night, and I was paying attention to the other party members a bit more this time.  People were still healing, looting, and not at all out of LoS as the new waves came in.  Felt less bad about letting them take a smack before I gained aggro.

The group was also in the alcove before I could suggest trying the entrance.  I still need a cloak and a shield from this place, so should have plenty of chances in the near future to give this a try.

[kildorn]

Why do people bother looting mid wave while doing that corner pull crap? WHY? It'll be there when it's over, I promise. Just sit down, focus fire the priests and mages, and stop being terrible at picking your own targets, DPS. ><

Oh, and the second part of that picking your own targets thing: if you pick something high priority and then suddenly get 40-60% threat on your first 2 casts: switch targets, the tank doesn't agree with you.

[Selby]

Oh, and the second part of that picking your own targets thing: if you pick something high priority and then suddenly get 40-60% threat on your first 2 casts: switch targets, the tank doesn't agree with you.

Assisting the tank is for stupids, didn't you know?  Whenever I tank and I've got 3-4 mobs, I assign priority and don't feel bad when 2 go running off because 2 DPS decided to majorly burn down ones that they decided were important rather than me.  "You pull it, you tank it" is my philosophy.  Granted I will still try and get them back, but when things are on cooldown and people decide they can't wait 15 seconds, tough toenails.

[Shrike]

Another tank fail point in HoR is when they all too often ignore the mercs. These'll assrape the healer(s) if they aren't picked up pronto. As often as not, I seem to end up tanking these myself, and it's no fun (pretty much have to pop wolves on them). The casters I can handle on my own, but if a merc is running wild, well...gotta do something.

Oh, and assisting the tank doesn't really work all that well. My personal experience is they--regardless of class--seem to shift targets a lot and I invariably end up with aggro at some point, unless they're really on top of their AoE threat game. My attitude anymore is I outgear this stuff hugely, have done most of these instances a bazillion times, so you'd better step up your threat game because I am going to turn it loose. Despite magma totem/FN, I"m still basically a single target class and would prefer an /assist approach, but I just don't see tanks sticking to one target all that much anymore.

[kildorn]

They switch a lot due to each DPS picking a different target. So they're forced to try and single target threat on 3 things. It's why I've moved away from the assist and kill method unless I know the tank's style. I'll probably wind up dpsing some add he wanted to smack once and switch from.

[Rasix]

I just reiterate what the kill order is at the start.  Sometimes I get contradicted by the tank, but hey, it's their show.  I usually say "priest, mage, right?" and sometimes the tank will want the mage down first.  Not a matter to me.  At least though if people aren't sticking to the kill order (got to love the idiot that just picks the grouped up melee and starts spamming their AE abilities) I can effectively lock down a priest or mage on my rogue and negate most of their damage with cooldowns.   After the primaries are down, I go to assisting. 

[Ingmar]

Mage last. Seriously. It is the least threatening of all the mobs since they nerfed the flame strike (and also the best CC target).

I always go priest, rogue, warrior, then chase down the ranged guys, hunter before mage.

[Rasix]

Ahh, didn't know that.  Been away in the land of single player gaming for a bit. 

[Ingmar]

Nah you're not alone, most people still seem to go OH GOD A MAGE and want to kill it early. The worst thing about that I think, is that if you don't stunlock the stupid thing it spawns its add when you get it fairly wounded and then you've got yet another mob running around in the early going. Sure, it is a weak one, but still.

[Minvaren]

...here's an odd concept, but what if DPS assisted each other instead of the tank?

When I'm tanking, if I really need something to go down first, I'll say/mark it.  Otherwise, target whatever I charge and fire at will when it goes down is my motto.

(makes notes on kill order for the next run)

[kildorn]

...here's an odd concept, but what if DPS assisted each other instead of the tank?

When I'm tanking, if I really need something to go down first, I'll say/mark it.  Otherwise, target whatever I charge and fire at will when it goes down is my motto.

(makes notes on kill order for the next run)

DPS meters are a competition. If the mage and I assist each other, he'll get the use of my debuffs to inflate his dps. Fuck that.

[Ingmar]

...here's an odd concept, but what if DPS assisted each other instead of the tank?

When I'm tanking, if I really need something to go down first, I'll say/mark it.  Otherwise, target whatever I charge and fire at will when it goes down is my motto.

(makes notes on kill order for the next run)

My kill order assumes you're doing things in the hallway with at least a little CC, btw. If you don't have any CC at all you might want to consider taking the ranged guys down earlier (before the warrior - I still think the priest and rogue are bigger threats).

[Minvaren]

I generally silence (HT) the healer, pop spell reflect, and stomp the melee on the way in.  I try to grab the hunter after that if I can find them amidst the chaos.

And what is this new word you use, "CC"?   

[K9]

Why do people bother looting mid wave while doing that corner pull crap? WHY? It'll be there when it's over, I promise. Just sit down, focus fire the priests and mages, and stop being terrible at picking your own targets, DPS. ><

If I'm on my priest and I get some tard group that insists on using the alcove I'll wander around looting during the fight because I'm comfortable with my ability to heal the group up; it also makes it easier for me to shackle stuff if I'm not in the alcove.

[Ingmar]

I generally silence (HT) the healer, pop spell reflect, and stomp the melee on the way in.  I try to grab the hunter after that if I can find them amidst the chaos.

And what is this new word you use, "CC"?   

Its fairly rare to have a group with no paladin, no priest AND no hunter. Any of those can provide adequate CC for one mob regardless of spec (turn evil, shackle undead, freeze trap). A ret pally is even better of course since you get repentance too but you can't count on that.

[K9]

I had a look at the glyphs my priest has again today and realised that there's really fuck all point having the Flash Heal glyph as Disc. Penance and PW:S are a given, and the PW:S glyph accounts for a good 5-10% of my healing done, if not more, depending on the fight. There's really no situation where I ever use flash heal much. As holy I'm using a renew-centric build with Renew-CoH-GS as my majors.

Any suggestions for replacing the flash heal glyph? Renew seems like the possible best contender, although I'm not totally sold on using renew as Disc. Holy Nova perhaps, might try dispel magic. None of them are particularly obvious choices though.

[Merusk]

I used Greater Dispel Magic + Absolution because near-instant mass dispel for little mana is fucking awesome.

[K9]

I'm trying to think where there are dispel-heavy encounters though. There's some on trash in ICC, but who cares about trash. Deathwhisper I guess and on a 50K tank that is a 1.5K heal.

Do you get your points in Absolution by dropping Imp:FH? I was thinking of doing that but moving the points to imp:renew. I guess Imp:Renew + Glyph could be not so bad for tankhealing.