Lich king SPOILERS

[Simond]

One of the things they wanted to do was have us all do shit we might not be proud of in Northrend, turning Arthas into a cardboard cutout zomgbadguy with this stupid THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A LICH KING AND UH WE'LL MAKE BOLVAR TAKE OVER bullshit ruined that completely, in my opinion.

He's been that since, oh, a few minutes into Warcraft 3.

I still need someone to explain to me why there must always be a Lich King.  There wasn't one five years ago.  Undirected scourge are going to be easier to isolate and wipe out.  A bunch of ghouls aren't going to be raising progenitor dragons for a pet.  Valkyr aren't going to be holding tournaments to earn the non-existent Lich King's favor.  It make no damn sense.

Arthas is an idiot ergo whoever picked up the hat next would be more dangerous than him therefore heroic sacrifice, please.

[kildorn]

Frostmourne should drop, and Bolvar should ninja it from the raid and log out.

[Delmania]

The only way this can possible make sense is if Arthas was holding back, which I believe is strongly hinted at in the beginning, where has asks if it's finally over.  Which of course, overturns all the buildup that Arthas is completely evil. 

[Jayce]

I've always thought it was Frostmourne's fault.  Maybe it gets broken or something in the final fight.

There is a part in FT where Arthas says "It's odd - I've destroyed everything I ever cared about, but I don't care" and Mal'Ganis or someone says "It's because Frostmourne stole your soul, dude".

[Lantyssa]

Arthas didn't care before he ever heard of Frostmourne.

Arthas is an idiot ergo whoever picked up the hat next would be more dangerous than him therefore heroic sacrifice, please.

That helps quite a bit, actually.

[Soulflame]

I've been told that in some Blizzard Approved Canonical Novel that Arthas and That Damn Shaman had it out when they originally merged, or at some point afterwards, and Arthas won out.

I'm not entirely sure on the timeline, but the Scourge can't have been around for more than a few years.  That Bolvar is shown in the YS illusions has very interesting implications, who knows what it really means (LOLORE) but to me it means that the Lich King is more than likely a tool of the Old Gods.  So it doesn't make a lot of sense for there to be a requirement: Must exist, Lich King, one each.  Unless, of course, this is more long term planning on the part of the Old Gods to do something, anything, to escape their prisons.

As for the Old Gods, they are described as a necrotic parasite that could not be killed or removed by the Titans without destroying the planet.  It's entirely possible we managed to do what the Pantheon itself could not, but I would not count on it.

i.e. at best we caused the two Old Gods we have fought to subside, but the odds are not good (again, my opinion) that we actually defeated them.  It's way too likely we'll see YS in an expansion or three, yelling out, "I know what you're thinking, but Ulduar was merely a setback!"

[Fordel]

This is Metzen, the man who couldn't remember if his DemonLordTitan corrupted a entire species, or if the species corrupted the Titan.

[Soulflame]

Again, this is my opinion, but it'll likely be retconned yet again that the original corrupter of Sargeras was the Old Gods.  Then we'll fight Sargeras (because you just know he's not all the way dead) at level 100, and just as we're about to deliver the killing blow, he'll yell out, "Stay your hand... !"

[Merusk]

I've always thought it was Frostmourne's fault.  Maybe it gets broken or something in the final fight.

Watch the cinematic again. It's shattered by Arthas' side as he's lying on the ground.

[Sjofn]

One of the things they wanted to do was have us all do shit we might not be proud of in Northrend, turning Arthas into a cardboard cutout zomgbadguy with this stupid THERE MUST ALWAYS BE A LICH KING AND UH WE'LL MAKE BOLVAR TAKE OVER bullshit ruined that completely, in my opinion.

He's been that since, oh, a few minutes into Warcraft 3.

Meh, not really. Like I said, the Fallen Paladin isn't exactly original, but he had an actual motivation for his fall. Now he's just all MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA because ... well, just because.

He HAS always been a douchebag, though.  


EDIT: And you know, Mal'ganis showing up and being all YOINK like Khaldun suggested would've made me happy.  But clearly we would have to fight him down to 1 HP before he left, because that's how Mal'ganis rolls.

[Paelos]

Is Glen Cook bored yet? Can we get him on the payroll to fill in some really crazy lore for WoW?

[Rasix]

Is Glen Cook bored yet? Can we get him on the payroll to fill in some really crazy lore for WoW?

Just how many times do you want to kill the Limper?

[WindupAtheist]

They could've done something INTERESTING, like have Arthas inside the Lich King wanting to kill the world and raise it as undead because he thinks that's the only way the races of Azeroth would stop slap fighting long enough to finally get rid of the Burning Legion for good, and maybe he's "holding back" the Scourge to give the living races one last chance to get their shit together (if they can unite to stop HIM, surely they can unite to stop Sargaras, rite).

I like this idea. Except he doesn't need to hold back because there's still good in him, or he has some hope left for the mortal races, or any wishy-washy stuff like that. He can be unrepentantly evil but still have a reason to hold back. Namely, the Burning Legion itself.

Replace that stupid blue dragon sideshow with some Scourge-versus-Legion stuff. Make it clear that Arthas is only playing this "get their heroes to come to me and convert them" game because while he COULD smash the combined Alliance and Horde outright, it would leave him too weak to hold off the Burning Legion. After all, that's explicitly why the Legion created the Scourge in the first place, to weaken Azeroth in preparation for their own invasion.

And of course, an uncontrolled zombie-wave Scourge wouldn't grasp any of this. They would just mindlessly attack everyone. They'd probably lose without a Lich King to guide them, but that would still leave the world too weak to hold off the Legion. Hence, someone else needs to put on the Lich King hat.

There you go. The Scourge is still more dangerous with a Lich King than without. Arthas is still 100% evil but has a motivation and a reason to hold back. Shit makes a little bit of sense. But no.

[Sheepherder]

I dunno, I'm a sucker for the "Oh god, what have I done?" <impale> endings.  That being said, at least it works.

[Sjofn]

The main thing with me is the Misguided Intentions they always, always, always fuck it up and use the Old God/Demon scapegoat, so I would've liked to see Arthas basically doing his Misguided Intentions MOSTLY on his own. I am totally OK with him being 100% evil too, of course, I just don't like the cardboard cutout he is.

Now I'm annoyed again about Metzen's lack of creativity. It first pissed me off with the Scarlet Crusade (OH HAI THEY'RE BEING SEMI-CONTROLLED BY A DEMON LOL, THEY AREN'T REALLY RACIST ZEALOTS BECAUSE THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BE INTERESTING) and pretty much every time since then it's been either a demon or an old god corrupting our bad guys. And if it ISN'T a demon or an old god corrupting some bad guy, it's never a big Lore Moment. The only bad guy I can think of off the top of my head who was 100% responsible for his bad guy creepiness is fuckin' Stalvan in Darkshire. Oh, and the hermit, I think he's just bad on his own too. Apparently the good writers worked on that zone or something. But again, those aren't really important. They're memorable though, dammit.

I guess to be fair, I can't remember if they blamed Malygos' tough love policy about magic being a result of Yogg Saron leaking into his skull or not. But he was at least crazy, I think I would've prefered him be perfectly sane. SANE IN OUR INSANE MAGIC ABUSING WORLD RAAR.



EDIT: Another nice thing about WUA's idea is it would keep the Burning Legion, the main bad guys, in the picture a lot more than it currently is, so we don't get all "Oh yeah, those guys" when they start to be a focus again.

[Delmania]

I like this idea. Except he doesn't need to hold back because there's still good in him, or he has some hope left for the mortal races, or any wishy-washy stuff like that. He can be unrepentantly evil but still have a reason to hold back. Namely, the Burning Legion itself.

Replace that stupid blue dragon sideshow with some Scourge-versus-Legion stuff. Make it clear that Arthas is only playing this "get their heroes to come to me and convert them" game because while he COULD smash the combined Alliance and Horde outright, it would leave him too weak to hold off the Burning Legion. After all, that's explicitly why the Legion created the Scourge in the first place, to weaken Azeroth in preparation for their own invasion.

And of course, an uncontrolled zombie-wave Scourge wouldn't grasp any of this. They would just mindlessly attack everyone. They'd probably lose without a Lich King to guide them, but that would still leave the world too weak to hold off the Legion. Hence, someone else needs to put on the Lich King hat.

There you go. The Scourge is still more dangerous with a Lich King than without. Arthas is still 100% evil but has a motivation and a reason to hold back. Shit makes a little bit of sense. But no.

First, I'd say that based on state of the lore, what you have said is pretty much the case.  The Burning Legion has suffered multiple set backs on Azeroth, and they have lost several high ranking members, but it's not as if the Legion has vanished.  It's still in operation, and it's pretty much a guarantee that for whoever is running the show, either defeating or re-enslaving the rogue Lich King on Azeroth is a high priority.  Ner'zhul's plan has pretty much always been to escape the Legion, build his own army, and strike back, not out of any heroic intentions, but because he is an evil power hungry bastard who wants to rule the show.

As many have pointed out, the Scourge is vast and powerful, but based on the 2 offensives, it's not strong enough to take over.  A friend of mine has suggested that without a Lich King, the Scourge would fight amongst themselves until the stronger and more intelligent ones took over, formed their own armies, and started fighting with each other and with the citizens of Azeroth.  The situation would rapidly devolve into chaos because while the forces of Azeroth are strong enough to prevent them from taking over, they are not strong enough to fight multiple fronts, especially considering that potentially every fallen soldier can be converted to the Scourge.  From Wrath, I got the impression that a full scale offensive was never in Arthas's plan.  He wanted to get the most powerful heros and leaders of Azeroth onto his turf where he could corrupt and turn them to his side.  Once enough heroes had been converted, he could then launch a full scale offensive turning the might of the Alliance and the Horde back on itself.  

As for the blue dragon side-show, it's not a side show, it's the attempt to tie the lore of Wrath back to the original conflict of Saergas.  It's just not well executed.

Now I'm annoyed again about Metzen's lack of creativity. It first pissed me off with the Scarlet Crusade (OH HAI THEY'RE BEING SEMI-CONTROLLED BY A DEMON LOL, THEY AREN'T REALLY RACIST ZEALOTS BECAUSE THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BE INTERESTING) and pretty much every time since then it's been either a demon or an old god corrupting our bad guys.

I'm pretty certain the with or without the dreadlords, the Scarlet Crusade would still be an overzealous military campaign led by a bunch of short-sighted racosts bastards.  The dreadlords are using that fact to control the SI and use them for their own ends.

I guess to be fair, I can't remember if they blamed Malygos' tough love policy about magic being a result of Yogg Saron leaking into his skull or not. But he was at least crazy, I think I would've prefered him be perfectly sane. SANE IN OUR INSANE MAGIC ABUSING WORLD RAAR.

That's actually the case.  He's got his sanity back, but he views our misuse of arcane magic as a major threat because he fears it would attract the Legion back to Azeroth.  I don't think he's aware that the planet is already the number 1 target.

[Sjofn]

I think you are giving them too much credit, frankly, certainly as far as the Scarlet Crusade goes. If they ARE trying to imply they'd be terrible people anyway, they do a shit-ass job going about it. I'd go with it, almost, if the Onslaught wasn't being lead astray by a DIFFERENT demon and were just following their own batshit selves instead. It loses a LOT when it can mostly be laid at the feet of a dreadlord, and it can be BOTH TIMES we have to deal with them.

While I'm rambling, I hope Arthas cries that we killed his boyfriend Kel'thuzad. They were tight, man. KT was always there for him. <sniff>

[Sheepherder]

If there are any players death knights in the raid (VERY UNLIKELY) he should also taunt them.

[kildorn]

If there are any players death knights in the raid (VERY UNLIKELY) he should also taunt them.

Please, he should act like he did the rest of Wrath and pretend he's never seen you before and you do not know the power of the lich king yadda yadda.

Always always annoyed me. Stop acting like I'm some random jackass. I actively rebelled against your ass like, a week ago! Still wearing your fucking logo on my armor even!

[Ratman_tf]

Arthas didn't care before he ever heard of Frostmourne.

This is why I don't give a fig about the lorelol. Dude was an ass who then got his soul sucked out so he could become a super powered ass. Yey. I'd be first in line to piss on his corpse.

[Fordel]

The Scarlet Crusade without the Dreadlord manipulation, would have been a hard line faction, but no where near as crazy as they are now. The Argent Dawn are the people from the Scarlet Crusade that figured out they were being manipulated and broke away, and the random friendly Crusaders you find around the world who haven't been inside the Dreadlords sphere of influence, while again hard liners, aren't bat shit insane like the Crusade/Onslaught proper.


Specifically, what tipped them completely over the edge, is when they were tricked into believing the Undead could look like they were not Undead. Before that, they were ruthless about quarantine and the like, but could still understand the difference between Zombie and Not-Zombie.



A lot of the Crusades lolore breaks down when you realize they were originally supposed to be the Horde Version of the Defias Brotherhood. 

[LK]

I've been told that in some Blizzard Approved Canonical Novel that Arthas and That Damn Shaman had it out when they originally merged, or at some point afterwards, and Arthas won out.

Actually, Arthas's humanity was represented by a small child (Matthias Lettner) and Ner'zhul battling for... something. His soul? I don't know. Arthas slew both of them and took over, which I found to be a "WTF?" moment because I had no idea what that meant or what they were trying to go for.

Arthas turned into a joke after that book and Lich King. Let the Cataclysm come and wash it all away.

[Soln]

tiny derail, but in the spirit of Blizz retconning or just changing stuff...

honest question: when I was playing vanilla, I had no idea about progression.   How do you know which instance to go into?  That is, how do you know which instances are worthwhile and which are Deadmines skippable?  just read player wikis?  Was there anything in the quests that said: go here, get that gear, go here get that gear?

[caladein]

It's gotten better bit by bit.  The quests sending you into dungeons are still a bit wonky as to when you get them, but the main thing is that the Dungeon Finder tells you right there what instances you should be running.

The two things that make pretty much all dungeons worthwhile at this point is the updated loot and Random Dungeon rewards.

[Jayce]

Actually, Arthas's humanity was represented by a small child (Matthias Lettner)

I think I got this right.  A flash movie would have more impact but....

Matthias Lehner

aMtthias Lehner
arMtthias Lehne
arttMhias Lehne
artthMias Lehne
artthaMis Lehne
arthas tMi Lehne
arthas Mti Lehne
arthas Meti Lehn
arthas Menti Leh
arthas Meneti Lh
arthas Menethi L

arthas MenethiL

[Malakili]

Actually, Arthas's humanity was represented by a small child (Matthias Lettner)

I think I got this right.  A flash movie would have more impact but....

Matthias Lehner

aMtthias Lehner
arMtthias Lehne
arttMhias Lehne
artthMias Lehne
artthaMis Lehne
arthas tMi Lehne
arthas Mti Lehne
arthas Meti Lehn
arthas Menti Leh
arthas Meneti Lh
arthas Menethi L

arthas MenethiL

 

[LK]

I know. I know.

Blizzard is not only good at innovating on existing game design, but trite cliches too! *THOOM* LICH KING NOWIWILLDISAPPEARINDRAMATICFASHION.

[March]

This is so trite even I don't care.

That's the meanest thing I've ever seen WUA write. seriously.

[Soulflame]

At least there aren't gnomes running around Arthas yelling out lines from Family Guy.

[Ingmar]

I was randomly thinking about this some more today, and really all they'd need to do to make this a little less retarded is to change "Someone has to take over holding the Scourge in check or they'll run wild!" to "Someone has to take over holding the Scourge in check or the Burning Legion will get control back!"

[Simond]

ICC would be about 400% better if Millhouse Manastorm showed up in it.

[Sjofn]

Milhouse should totally be a Major Bad Guy one day. Find out the real reason he was in Arcatraz.  



EDIT: Maaaaaan, I bet the reason they didn't say there must be a Lich King because otherwise the Burning Legion will get it back is because Metzen forgot that's where they fucking came from in the first place. And God Forbid he glance over the shit he's written before.

[LK]

It's a clusterfuck.

Total clusterfuck. I used to care about the lore. Now I just want to bone night elves and be done with it.

[Ratman_tf]

It's a clusterfuck.

Total clusterfuck. I used to care about the lore. Now I just want to bone night elves and be done with it.

[Fabricated]

The dialog during the Lich King fight basically implies he wanted you to kill all of his underlings, because if you're THAT tough, he'll convert you and -no one- will be able to stop him then. He gives a big speech before the pull, thanking Tirion for "delivering the greatest fighting force in the world right into my hands."