Lich king SPOILERS

[Nevermore]

Arthas didn't set up shop in Icecrown so much as he took over the operation that had already been established in Icecrown because that's where the Burning Legion hurled the Frozen Throne.

The 'There must always be a Lich King!' is still stupid, though.

[Ingmar]

Well, there was a Scourge/Lich King (just not a MOBILE Lich King) before Arthas put on the hat, maybe that's what they mean. If some sucker doesn't put on the hat and wrestle with whatever is still kicking around in there then Ner'zhul gets to do his thing again or something.

Of course if that is it, they should actually spell it out.

[Dren]

It's both.  He set up shop in the most desolate portion of Northrend and look at his lovely trail cutting through the Ghostlands and Silvermoon.

Also he's an idiot.

"Hey, let's lure the strongest in the realm all to one spot so they can kick my ass, instead of just killing everything, raising it, and getting the strongest anyway when they're uncoordinated."

No no, you don't understand!  He had to allow us to get more powerful by getting the items dropped by his underlings on our way up the ladder.  That is certainly not something he could have done in your scenario.

...oh wait...Nevermind.

[Merusk]

Well, there was a Scourge/Lich King (just not a MOBILE Lich King) before Arthas put on the hat, maybe that's what they mean. If some sucker doesn't put on the hat and wrestle with whatever is still kicking around in there then Ner'zhul gets to do his thing again or something.

Of course if that is it, they should actually spell it out.

That's for the 6th x-pac.  "Return to Icecrown Mountain"

[Delmania]

It's both.  He set up shop in the most desolate portion of Northrend and look at his lovely trail cutting through the Ghostlands and Silvermoon.

Also he's an idiot.

"Hey, let's lure the strongest in the realm all to one spot so they can kick my ass, instead of just killing everything, raising it, and getting the strongest anyway when they're uncoordinated."

His plan wasn't that retarded, actually.  To some degree, it worked.  At the start pf phase 4, he uses the full power of Frostmourne and kills everyone, and starts to resurrect them. The retarded part is that spell doesn't kill Fording for some reason, he is only enslaved, which allows him to break free, destroy Frostmourne, and have a Prior Incantato moment.  That is why I said he should have won.  There is no good reason why Fording shouldn't be killed along with the rest of the players.  It's more of Metzen's childish "Light must always win mentality" that messed up the whole situation.

[LK]

Pretty sure it wasn't Metzen's "Light must always win" mentality rather than Foror's ego coming through Ashbringer to strike down Metzen's Frostmourne.

Watch what happens when Cataclysm comes along and all these Big Damn Heroes from the Argent Crusade walking around with weapons meant to obliterate nations disappear into the ether.

[Lakov_Sanite]

it's pretty clear arthas doesnt kill fodring on purpose though. he mentions wanting fordring to watch azeroth die and something along the lines of "you will beg for mercy and i will not give it" essentially he wanted to torture the paladin.  again, arthas was an idiot

[LK]

Arthas is only as dumb as the people pulling his strings and the need for the MMO-space to continue on. It is inevitable in a non-terminating product for some Deus Ex Machina to occur to turn a hopeless situation into an unexpected victory. That they create a situation that doesn't take this into account is the greater problem.

[Sheepherder]

So, I just walked up to the statue in Dalaran, clicked the plaque, and bam: endgame cinematic.

What the fuck?  Not even a soloable Wrathgate style event?

[Jayce]

Pretty sure it wasn't Metzen's "Light must always win" mentality rather than Foror's ego coming through Ashbringer to strike down Metzen's Frostmourne.

Wow, you guys are good at inventing drama.

Could it possibly be that it's a "players must always win" design mentality?  Do you want to end the expansion unable to defeat the final boss?  Hamhanded story - that's a different problem.

[Delmania]

Could it possibly be that it's a "players must always win" design mentality?  Do you want to end the expansion unable to defeat the final boss?  Hamhanded story - that's a different problem.

If it were not for the whole premise behind Cataclysm, then Arthas's victory would not work.  If the players did not defeat him, but were saved, it would create a Scooby Doo situation.  Essentially, the lich king would have gotten away with it if nor for those darn kids.  However, Arthas's defeat just doesn't work.   He's been played, since TFT as an entity that is far more powerful than anything on Azeroth, with the exception of the (fully powered) Old Gods.  The deus ex machina of not killing Fording, as well as the blatant rip off of the prior incantato is just a stupid way to climax a story that has been building up for 7 years.   On the other hand, if Arthas wins, it would create an not winnable situation.

The whole premise behind Cataclysm, on the other hand, is that it opens up the possibility that Arthas wins, launched a massive offensive against Azeroth, and is tripped up wen Deathwing decides to wake  up.

[Lantyssa]

Arthas is a terrible character no matter what, so any story based around him is going to likewise have tons of problems.  Asshole 'Paladin' (HTF does the Light choose such a loser?) betrays everyone, finds a magic sword and helm, which makes him the most powerful active entity around.

"Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bink lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!"

[LK]

Pretty sure it wasn't Metzen's "Light must always win" mentality rather than Foror's ego coming through Ashbringer to strike down Metzen's Frostmourne.

Wow, you guys are good at inventing drama.

Could it possibly be that it's a "players must always win" design mentality?  Do you want to end the expansion unable to defeat the final boss?  Hamhanded story - that's a different problem.

Arthas is only as dumb as the people pulling his strings and the need for the MMO-space to continue on. It is inevitable in a non-terminating product for some Deus Ex Machina to occur to turn a hopeless situation into an unexpected victory. That they create a situation that doesn't take this into account is the greater problem.

It's the nature of the beast. With that fact accepted, we must move on to making the best of that situation.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Again I think people are discounting how powerful the players in wow are supposed to be now.  Thus far players in the wow narrative have defeated

~A dreadlord pretending to be one of the scarlet crusade
~not only onyxia but her brother nefarion, both powerful children of deathwing.
~Ragnaros(not the god of flame but a demi-god?)
~Servants of the old gods that were so powerful they had to be sealed by malfurian up to and including c'thun(albeit weakened)
~The troll blood god hakaar

TBC

~The pit lord magtheridon
~Kael'thas
~The progenitor or the ogre race gruul
~Illidan stormrage
~Teron Gorefiend
~Kael'thas
~Banishing kil'jaeden

Wrath

~The aspect of magic and head of the blue dragonflight malygos
~mr bigglesworth
~The old god yogg saron and a host of titan aspects.



Ever since wow began players got their panties in a bunch saying "we shouldn't be allowed to kill X or Y" but the power progression path is pretty clear and makes perfect sense.  If players have been able to defeat all those prior challenges then defeating the lich king is not so far fetched.  Of course it's ludricrous to think of warcraft the world when you have a small battalion of demi gods on each factions side running around but it's not inconsistant.

[Ratman_tf]

Again I think people are discounting how powerful the players in wow are supposed to be now.  Thus far players in the wow narrative have defeated

~A dreadlord pretending to be one of the scarlet crusade
~not only onyxia but her brother nefarion, both powerful children of deathwing.
~Ragnaros(not the god of flame but a demi-god?)
~Servants of the old gods that were so powerful they had to be sealed by malfurian up to and including c'thun(albeit weakened)
~The troll blood god hakaar

TBC

~The pit lord magtheridon
~Kael'thas
~The progenitor or the ogre race gruul
~Illidan stormrage
~Teron Gorefiend
~Kael'thas
~Banishing kil'jaeden

Wrath

~The aspect of magic and head of the blue dragonflight malygos
~mr bigglesworth
~The old god yogg saron and a host of titan aspects.



Ever since wow began players got their panties in a bunch saying "we shouldn't be allowed to kill X or Y" but the power progression path is pretty clear and makes perfect sense.  If players have been able to defeat all those prior challenges then defeating the lich king is not so far fetched.  Of course it's ludricrous to think of warcraft the world when you have a small battalion of demi gods on each factions side running around but it's not inconsistant.

It's kind of hard to take bosses seriously knowing that a turkey or moose from the next expansion will be higher level, and possibly be able to beat the players who just beat the Lich King.

[Simond]

Plus, you know, Ashbringer is a fucking Na'aru that walks like a man is currently in the form of a sword. So yeah - Best paladin on the planet + archangel-sword > dreadlord-forged runesword + mummy's boy fallen prince.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm not saying one should take wow bosses or for that matter lore, seriously. Quite the opposite actually however wow does go by a certain timeline, in that the wrath events take place after tbc events, take place after vanilla.  C'thun/kil'jaeden/yogg all with godlike power arguable more than powerful than arthas in single combat are all defeated. To say arthas is the ultimate power-omg-cant-be-killed, is just fanboy wankery.

[Delmania]

I'm not saying one should take wow bosses or for that matter lore, seriously. Quite the opposite actually however wow does go by a certain timeline, in that the wrath events take place after tbc events, take place after vanilla.  C'thun/kil'jaeden/yogg all with godlike power arguable more than powerful than arthas in single combat are all defeated. To say arthas is the ultimate power-omg-cant-be-killed, is just fanboy wankery.

It's not fan boy wonkery.  He's the only boss who kills everyone in the raid, only to lose to a Harry Potter ripoff.   Call it what you want, the Lich King has has a presence in WoW since the game launched, which makes sense, because the a good size of the population has played, or was at least famailiar with, TFT. 

[apocrypha]

Again I think people are discounting how powerful the players in wow are supposed to be now.  Thus far players in the wow narrative have defeated

~A dreadlord pretending to be one of the scarlet crusade
~etc

You say this, but every time I go back into one of their dungeons they're all still there!

[Ratman_tf]

I'm not saying one should take wow bosses or for that matter lore, seriously. Quite the opposite actually however wow does go by a certain timeline, in that the wrath events take place after tbc events, take place after vanilla.  C'thun/kil'jaeden/yogg all with godlike power arguable more than powerful than arthas in single combat are all defeated. To say arthas is the ultimate power-omg-cant-be-killed, is just fanboy wankery.

Mmm. Ok. I can see that.

BUT THE PEOPLE ARE STILL SCREAMING AT THE WRATHGATE! 

[Sheepherder]

How is it that House recycles the same plot every episode and manages to be constantly fresh, and Samwise can't even make a fucking Macbeth story work?

[Lantyssa]

I blame his obsession with gigantic shoulder pads.

[LK]

Samwise? You mean Metzen, right?

[Sheepherder]

Yes, though the other one needs to be shaken like the baby of an abusive mother too.

[LK]

... SAMWISE?

[Sjofn]

My main problem with Samwise is he seems to think no women wear pants ever.

[Evildrider]

My main problem with Samwise is he seems to think no women wear pants ever.

Women wear pants?

[LK]

But.. but... they get in the way of the s3xy!

[Sjofn]

Shit, maybe I'm a dude and didn't realise it. 

[LK]

You're on the internet claiming to be a woman. Of COURSE you're a dude. 

[Sheepherder]

Does that mean Ingmar is gay?

[LK]

That or sjofn is *really good* at disguise.

[kildorn]

Does that mean Ingmar is gay?

Man, our guild WISHES. 

[WindupAtheist]

... SAMWISE?

Samwise is Metzen! ZOMG!

Get in here Sam, you have some 'splainin to do!

[LK]

We're talking about Samwise Didier, one of the OG artists at Blizzard and someone who has nothing to do with the lore.

Has a way with making pants-less ladies, though.