Patch 3.3

[Musashi]

Best change ever.

[Mattemeo]

*snip* Probably quite a nice chap if you took the time to know him *snip*

Neither Igor here or his good friend Bone Daddy (as seen on MMO-champ) looks right, yet. Unfinished and quite obviously just plain wrong texture mapping problems. On the other hand, super batwing magicpony (also as seen on MMO-champ)  is fully rendered and complete, he just looks a bit... special.

Also, Mage T10 looks like someone murdered and skinned a family of Sims. Wat.

[Delmania]

With the latest warlock changes, it's clear Affliction is meant to use the Fel hunter, and the Destro is meant to use the imp.   It will be interesting to see how more damage I can do with my new talent build.  If they could figure out how to remove Shadow Bolt from my rotation, I'd be really happy.

[Sheepherder]

Last time I check the Succy is still the highest DPS pet for Affliction, did they buff anything or is it worth the slight DPS hit to take the hunter for mana regen?

[Delmania]

Basically, they added more damage to Afflication viathe fel hunter's shadow bite.  IFH will boost the damage of SB by 15% and now apparently Pandemic will boost crit damage of SB by 100%.

[Sheepherder]

IFH will boost the damage of SB by 15%.

I see.  Pandemic change and IFH change.

Why the hell do they seem to take great delight in shoehorning players into using a specific pet for each spec?

[Ironwood]

Because it makes sense.

I love my Fel Doggy.

[Fordel]

IFH will boost the damage of SB by 15%.

I see.  Pandemic change and IFH change.

Why the hell do they seem to take great delight in shoehorning players into using a specific pet for each spec?

If they don't make each spec have it's own superior pet, then every Warlock will use the exact same pet, the one with the highest raid DPS, 95% of the time. Despite the 'shoehorning', this actually promotes warlock pet diversity for the overall game. Also helps with spec identity and allows for better pet/spec interaction.


The only real loser pet is the Succubus really, it has a narrow PvP niche at this point and that's about it.

[DraconianOne]

Yes, actually.  The changes to Improved FelHunter and the Glyph of Lifetap (now procs off of Dark Pact) do make Affliction the highest damage spec on the PTR.  Throw in change for haste and DoT spells (tick faster now) and Affliction goes through the roof as compared to the other 2 builds.  

I may switch to this spec wen the patch goes live:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Ifxr0zrAoiAohktZE00q:ITMzV0

Surprised you're going for Grim Reach & Shadowburn over Death's Embrace.

EDIT: For that matter, Improved Drain Soul over Soul Siphon?

EDIT 2: Just to be clear, I'm curious, not criticizing.

[Sheepherder]

If they don't make each spec have it's own superior pet, then every Warlock will use the exact same pet, the one with the highest raid DPS, 95% of the time. Despite the 'shoehorning', this actually promotes warlock pet diversity for the overall game. Also helps with spec identity and allows for better pet/spec interaction.

The only real loser pet is the Succubus really, it has a narrow PvP niche at this point and that's about it.

No, it doesn't help, because then you just whip out the Felhunter the vast majority of the time.

Really, they should all do the same base DPS and be selected on the basis of which abilities you need.

[Fordel]

Destruction will still want to use the Imp
Demo the Felguard

Destro and Aff will use the Void whenever they need a tank


Woo we are using them all! Except the Succubus, she's just for Silvermoon RP sessions now.

[Delmania]

Yes, actually.  The changes to Improved FelHunter and the Glyph of Lifetap (now procs off of Dark Pact) do make Affliction the highest damage spec on the PTR.  Throw in change for haste and DoT spells (tick faster now) and Affliction goes through the roof as compared to the other 2 builds.  

I may switch to this spec wen the patch goes live:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#Ifxr0zrAoiAohktZE00q:ITMzV0

Surprised you're going for Grim Reach & Shadowburn over Death's Embrace.

EDIT: For that matter, Improved Drain Soul over Soul Siphon?

EDIT 2: Just to be clear, I'm curious, not criticizing.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent#Ifxr0zMAoiAoIktZE00V:ITMVz0

While it's true Drain Soul can put out some impressive numbers, especially when you get the mob under 25%, Shadow Bolt is still better to cast because it does do more damage and it it put 2debuffs on the mob.

[Sheepherder]

So only using the one pet intrinsically linked with your spec makes them equally viable?  Is that not like, the definition of not equally viable in addition to being the exact reason that Blizzard introduced dual-specs?

Also, nobody in their right mind uses the Voidwalker to tank.  It simply does not put out enough threat.  It would, however, make for really nice survivability without any loss in DPS in fights with heavy AoE, or for pushback resistance, but that's okay, because I'm sure those functions aren't useful anyways.

[Fordel]

Not when the raid needs a tank, when the Warlock needs one, like to cheese some elite mob that is fear immune while soloing. (insert link to voidwalker tanking Sarth 3D here) 

[Sheepherder]

Last time I checked, they nerfed the ability to do that into the fucking ground, and it required a specialized build to begin with.

Again, a specific build making a single pet useful isn't exactly the definition of equally viable, unless you want to take the shortbus approach and conclude that effectively nothing in the game has ever been not viable because they've always has a niche they could build and/or gear into.

Of course, that may very well be true.  The infernal was an excellent pet in TBC if you happened to need a three second stun that summoned a level 60 pet that did shit for damage and broke incapacitate effects.  And of course the doomguard's niche was to spare a lucky party member a repair bill during a wipe, after which the warlock could use Hellfire to wipe himself in a similar manner, amirite?

[Gobbeldygook]

Of course, that may very well be true.  The infernal was an excellent pet in TBC if you happened to need a three second stun that summoned a level 60 pet that did shit for damage and broke incapacitate effects.  And of course the doomguard's niche was to spare a lucky party member a repair bill during a wipe, after which the warlock could use Hellfire to wipe himself in a similar manner, amirite?

If you're suggesting the doomguard and infernal weren't good in TBC or aren't good now, you're wrong.  Warlocks used the infernal on brutallus precisely because it was more DPS.  The doomguard is currently used by the current theoretical max DPS warlock build.

[Fordel]

I have no idea what you are even trying to argue anymore Sheep. Let alone what you think I am trying to debate with you apparently.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Last time I checked, they nerfed the ability to do that into the fucking ground, and it required a specialized build to begin with.

Again, a specific build making a single pet useful isn't exactly the definition of equally viable, unless you want to take the shortbus approach and conclude that effectively nothing in the game has ever been not viable because they've always has a niche they could build and/or gear into.

Of course, that may very well be true.  The infernal was an excellent pet in TBC if you happened to need a three second stun that summoned a level 60 pet that did shit for damage and broke incapacitate effects.  And of course the doomguard's niche was to spare a lucky party member a repair bill during a wipe, after which the warlock could use Hellfire to wipe himself in a similar manner, amirite?

in my guild our warlock gm is always, always number one in damage on raid bosses. All of these lock arguments are therefore pointless.

[Sheepherder]

If you're suggesting the doomguard and infernal weren't good in TBC or aren't good now, you're wrong.  Warlocks used the infernal on brutallus precisely because it was more DPS.  The doomguard is currently used by the current theoretical max DPS warlock build.

In 2.4 they were nerfed or broken to max out at level 50, same for the doomguard.  I don't recall when they were changed again.

I have no idea what you are even trying to argue anymore Sheep. Let alone what you think I am trying to debate with you apparently.

All the pets should conribute the same DPS regardless of your spec except the Felguard (or the Felguard should be given other things to offset the talent point cost).  The ability sets and buffs granted by the pet should dictate which pet you use for a fight, because the warlock class is obviously designed to be able to swap pets with ease, presumably there is or was a reason for this.  Not a hard concept.

More to the point, more options is better than less, "For your spec you must use the felhunter/imp/felguard or you lose DPS" just encourages people to always use the same pet unless a fight mechanic blatantly requires another.

EDIT: Lakov, I think we all understand that warlocks don't need buffs.  But thanks for pointing out the obvious.

[DraconianOne]

Do you play a 'lock Sheep?  Couldn't see your chars in the Expose Yourself thread.

[Sheepherder]

I have some serious nostalgia for Scholomance.

It was the last character I leveled, because TBC burned me out on warlock badly, and I just finally hit 80 today.  I'm currently cycling through the various specs to see which I like playing.  Affliction is nice but high maintenance, though I haven't glyphed yet, so my CoA is shorter than it could be.

[Fordel]

All the pets should conribute the same DPS regardless of your spec except the Felguard (or the Felguard should be given other things to offset the talent point cost).  The ability sets and buffs granted by the pet should dictate which pet you use for a fight, because the warlock class is obviously designed to be able to swap pets with ease, presumably there is or was a reason for this.  Not a hard concept.

Except neither the Mana dog nor the Succubus provide any kind of meaningful utility to a raid and both are melee limited, so now everyone just uses the Imp. Hurrah for 'choice' ?

Having a Pet relate to a Spec is just like having a Nuke relate to a spec. It allows the pet abilities to interact with the talent and spell choices of the spec in a substantive way. Maybe you want FireMages to be able to cast FrostBolt though? /shrug

[Delmania]

Except neither the Mana dog nor the Succubus provide any kind of meaningful utility to a raid and both are melee limited, so now everyone just uses the Imp. Hurrah for 'choice' ?

I hate that.  Right now, as Affliction, I leave the imp on passive as a mana source from DP and HP buff.  If I was Destro, he'd be defensive so I could get the Empowered Imp buff.  These changes to Improved Fel Hunter are positive in my book, because the puppy is my favorite pet.  The only reason I don't use him while questing is that Sacrifice has saved my life more than once. 

Having a Pet relate to a Spec is just like having a Nuke relate to a spec. It allows the pet abilities to interact with the talent and spell choices of the spec in a substantive way. Maybe you want FireMages to be able to cast FrostBolt though? /shrug

Pets present a special problem that nukes don't in that a Fire spec'ed mage can cast frost bolt.  It's not as good as a frost spec'ed mage, but he can do it.  By tying a pet to specific pet, it means, in general, I will have access to only the powers on that pet, and I want others, I need to blow a cooldown or wait a long time.  I don't think the pets should have the same dps because they all do offer diferent powrrs and are designed for different situations, but I completely understand where Blizzard is coming from because a warlock is more reliant on his or het pet regalrdd of his or her spec than say n unholy DK or a B<M hunter.

They can, it's just not as good

[Fordel]

On that same notion, every caster 'can' melee too. Doesn't make it a good idea 99% of the time. Choice isn't really choice if there is a clearly superior choice to choose from.


/She sells seas shells by the sea shore

[Sheepherder]

Except neither the Mana dog nor the Succubus provide any kind of meaningful utility to a raid and both are melee limited, so now everyone just uses the Imp. Hurrah for 'choice' ?

Imp: Easiest to manage, supplies health buff to casters (might be better suited on the voidwalker, or not, depending on usage of the respective pets).
Succy: Thunderclap debuff (Soothing Kiss) lets the tank use higher DPCT abilities (it's only 10% atm), something else probably needed (Fortitude?)
Voidwalker: Sacrifice for pushback-less casting on low damage high frequency AoE, making it an alternative to Intensity/Fel Concentration.
Fel Hunter: Mana return, interrupt, purge.

Could also give appropriate melee pets a cheat death, Reincarnation (Improved Feign Death), or a "Your summon spells are instant cast and cost no mana after your pet dies."  Or something along that line, to improve the comparison between Imp and non-Imp.

[Fordel]

Imp: Easiest to manage

Everyone uses the Imp, hurrah!


3 of 4 tanks apply their T-Clap debuffs as a side effect of their normal tanking rotations. A AP debuff would match up better then Fort, but still would be moot for 3 of 4 tanks.

The Void walker is never going to have DPS comparable to the other pets, and the pushback protection isn't going to out weigh the DPS loss.

The Mana Dog cleanse and interrupt aren't going to be reliable and readily usable for a raid, not compared to Free Health EZ-Street imp.


None of the pet abilities are on par with actual class abilities. The mythical realm of swapping pets in and out as situation requires died around the same time they made Druid forms spec specific. The idea just doesn't work in practice.



Affliction will use the Mana Dog for DPS, and the Voidwalker if they need to solo tank something for a quest.

Demonology will use the Succubus for DPS untill they can spec Felguard. They'll use the Voidwalker to solo tank untill Felguard again.

Destruction will use the Imp for DPS, and the Voidwalker to solo tank etc.


The only real loser will be the succubus, she's just a shitty CC bot once the felguard shows up (The Felguard pretty much fucks everything up if you really look at all the pets, but it isn't going away at this point). If a raid REALLY needs something seduced, the locks will break out the bus, just like if they REALLY need another interrupt, the mana dog shows up. The only thing that the shoehorning is doing, is ensuring every spec isn't using the Imp the other 95% of the time.

[Sheepherder]

The Void walker is never going to have DPS comparable to the other pets, and the pushback protection isn't going to out weigh the DPS loss.

Right.  Blizzard shouldn't buff Voidwalker DPS because it will never be equal to other pet DPS, I get it.  But if that's the case, shouldn't you want them to buff the Voidwalker to increase the DPS of everything else?

TL; DR: it's always been this way and always will be this way is not a compelling argument, try harder.

[Rasix]

This sounds a lot like an argument between two people that don't play warlocks.   Apologies if you do.

[Sheepherder]

No, but we're fine for DPS.  So we have to bitch and argue about pets.  Or maybe armor set appearances and the lack of an outfit tab.

[Fordel]

Warlock set armor is far superior to most class choices really, way more 'hits' then 'misses' overall.

[Rendakor]

No, but we're fine for DPS.  So we have to bitch and argue about pets.  Or maybe armor set appearances and the lack of an outfit tab.

It's always been this way and always will be this way.

[DraconianOne]

My everyday/questing spec is an aff/demon hybrid.  I've recently been using this on heroics too as it tends to give me better DPS on trash than my pure aff build (which is also talented for Demonic Power to increase succ/imp dps).   I've never played Destro although I feel I should give it a go as it's meant to be easier.

I regularly cycle pets although I rarely use Imp unless we're in need of the stam buff. I will occasionally use Felpup for the Int buff if the group is entirely made up of mana classes or if there's another lock with an Imp out. I use Succ for DPS and occasional crowd control if we're lacking in that department.  I don't use the voidy much unless I'm in need of soloing elites (like the G5 elite frostwyrm quest in Dragonblight which I did at the right level irrc) in which case it gets used along with a threat meter.  It's slow, but possible.

I love my hybrid spec.  Can normally AOE an area clear in not much time and the only downtime I face is because I've run out of things to kill.

[Rasix]

Switch your meta (don't gem for int either).  Your PVE gear is almost identical to mine.  Hooray for not raiding.

[DraconianOne]

TBH, the AH was pretty sparse with gems that I was willing to part money on so I took whatever I could find with +SP.  Never normally spec for +int.  Don't feel I can justify spending 150-200g a pop on epic gems so I took what I could at the time and there was no +STA and no other metas with +SP.  When our guild JC comes back, I will be cornering him and pinning him down for better gems.  (Even our Guild bank was only full of +AP or some such crap).

[Sheepherder]

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41285