Patch 3.3

[Nevermore]

All the other snares/ roots are on DR

No they aren't.

[ezrast]

                + Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage's party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.

Does arc really still need help or are they just taunting me?

[Gobbeldygook]

                + Arcane Empowerment: This talent now also grants 1/2/3% increased damage done by the mage's party or raid for 10 seconds after the mage gets a critical strike with Arcane Explosion, Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, or Arcane Blast. This effect is exclusive with Ferocious Inspiration and Sanctified Retribution.

Does arc really still need help or are they just taunting me?

They're just spreading that buff around.  That particular one's somewhat hard to come by because only one spec each of two classes provides it and BM is a very unpopular PVE spec.  Arcane had a serious lack of raid buffs compared to fire or even frost, so at least arcane now provides something.

[Sheepherder]

Arcane was pretty good before 3.2, but I'm not complaining.

Also, people raid as frost?

EDIT

Also, Blizzard needs to do something about...

[Merusk]

I fail to see the problem.

 

[K9]

I blame Runescroll of Fortitude.

[Malakili]

Also, Blizzard needs to do something about...

I think this is why hybrids used to be not as good as base classes in each of their roles.  Even in vanilla WoW i was happy with my druid that I barely ever alted, and while now I have a lot of alts just because.... I would more than ever never NEED any other character than my druid, I can literally fill any role in the game, and well.  That being said...not everyone wants to play as an elf than turns into animals.

[Paelos]

That being said...not everyone wants to play as an elf than turns into animals.

The adding of worgens will remove my block on wanting to try out a druid class. I simply won't play an elf in any game.

[Fabricated]

I just want IC to drop so some people in my guild stop wanting to do totc heroic. The hard modes are ridiculously unfun. Yeah, I like the same encounter with three times the damage and marginally better loot that will be worse than normal IC10 loot.

[Signe]

Cows can turn into animals. 

[Nebu]

MMO's have evolved.  It used to be that you had to choose between being outstanding at one thing or ok at doing a few things.  Blizzard has closed this gap by allowing hybrids to also excel at several roles... or at least excel to a point where they can fill that role without much loss. 

I'm guessing that games will ultimately move to a place where groups will be looking for a 5th person rather than a particular class.  Beyond pet classes, I think that every class should have access to a dps tree, a tanking tree, and a healing tree.  You should also be allowed to have access to all three specs for a fee (like dual spec now) and a gear manager able to cope with the changes.  The next logical step is to then make gear class specific so that you don't have people needing everything because they're greedy bastards. 

[Jayce]

MMO's have evolved.  It used to be that you had to choose between being outstanding at one thing or ok at doing a few things.  Blizzard has closed this gap by allowing hybrids to also excel at several roles... or at least excel to a point where they can fill that role without much loss. 

This is a good point. While the hybrid/pure class distinction is an interesting choice, it tends to push people to picking a class based on the role they (think they) want to play, and having to make the decision at level 1.  It's a little bit of a risk to make hybrids as good as the pure classes because then (so the story goes), why would anyone be a pure class when they can be a hybrid and do any one of a variety of roles?

But it turns out the risk was probably overstated, because people still play pure classes.  I, for example, play a warrior because I like tanking though I've never been able to stick to a druid or paladin.  I guess the hybrids ended up being good for those who are ADD about their role, but those who only care about one thing, or just enjoy the archetype, still play the pure classes.

So you have people playing what they want rather than what they feel forced into.  Win.

[Merusk]

If DKs are Hybrids, so are Warriors.

Just sayin'.

Seriously, though, the only PURE classes left are Mages, Rogues, Hunters and Locks.  They can spec into 3 DPS specs and nothing else.  Sure one may survive better than the others so you can call it a "PVP" spec, but it's still DPS.  They won't be healing a group or tanking a raid boss in it. (Outside of special fights Blizz designs with that intent.)

[Lakov_Sanite]

Blizzard is just trying to make wow fun.

Why pick barbarian over amazon in diablo? they're both dps.  They're trying to move away from classes as roles in a group to class as preferred playstyles.

[Kail]

I'm guessing that games will ultimately move to a place where groups will be looking for a 5th person rather than a particular class.  Beyond pet classes, I think that every class should have access to a dps tree, a tanking tree, and a healing tree.  You should also be allowed to have access to all three specs for a fee (like dual spec now) and a gear manager able to cope with the changes.

At that point, why even have classes?  The main point of them (I'd argue) is to set out clear roles both for what the player needs to do.  You get in a group with two death knights, a priest, mage, and a hunter, and the only question is which DK is going to tank and which is going to DPS.  You get in a group with five people who can do anything, and you have to wrangle around with who can and is willing to do what, and if he's doing this then he can't do that, so someone else will have to, but they don't have the gear, so a third guy can full the first hole if someone can do his old job etc. etc.  You'll still have players (and characters, assuming this is a gear based MMO) who can't heal, you just won't be able to tell who they are until you're just about ready to start.

Also, why exclude pet classes from this?

[Musashi]

Read the post before yours.

[Merusk]

Blizzard is just trying to make wow fun.

Why pick barbarian over amazon in diablo? they're both dps.  They're trying to move away from classes as roles in a group to class as preferred playstyles.

Which can only be a good thing, IMO.   I'm hoping they figure out a way to let clothies tank and implement it into the next hero class.

[Nebu]

Also, why exclude pet classes from this?

Pet classes are largely designed as an option for solo players.  They need to have spec options that cater to the solo style of play.  At least this is my opinion on the matter. If you don't intend them to be solo classes, then they should have the same options available to them as well.  I agree with you.  

I agree with you on the rest.  The only reason that I see for the existence of classes is to help some people build logical (and useful) skill sets.  If MMO's became a purely skill-based affair, they would ultimately end up as class games anyway.  The moment that someone with a spreadsheet found the most powerful skill combos, you'd be back to classes again anyway.  They'd just have a different name attached to them than say "Rogue" or "Priest".  

Similarly, having class templates limits the number of ways that players can break their toon.  CSR issue avoidance is a good thing. 

[Sheepherder]

Seriously, though, the only PURE classes left are Mages, Rogues, Hunters and Locks.

Without exception these four are also among the most under-represented on my server.  Really, they need to give every class either a tank or healing role if not both.

You'll still have players (and characters, assuming this is a gear based MMO) who can't heal, you just won't be able to tell who they are until you're just about ready to start.

Also, why exclude pet classes from this?

• More standardized gear sets across all specs and classes (It really don't take that much lorelol to say that a Paladin with 5k Strength should be dropping some vicious healbombs).
• Tier gear that transforms based on spec/stance for when different stat preferences are absolutely necessary.
• Hit and crit.  Make them go away or give them a number of uses which changes based on context (so healers can use hit gear, without making heals miss-capable).
• Pet classes either tank/heal remotely via the pet (send it in, DPS as per usual, possibly an ability to transfer your threat to the pet), or gain "Eyes of the Beast" type abilities that grant control of a utility pet that when under this effect gains 100% of player's stats, or the class gains tanking ability naturally (Gogo Warlock Drain Tank!).

[Sjofn]

I don't really think they need to give every class a tanking and healing tree simply because sure, lots of people are playing hybrids, but they're playing those hybrids mostly to DPS. :P

It would be nice if every class could do at least two roles, I dunno if they need to be able to do all three. It works for druids because they have forms to limit what they can do while filling their role, but paladins have been a balancing problem for as long as I can remember.

[Nebu]

It would be nice if every class could do at least two roles, I dunno if they need to be able to do all three. It works for druids because they have forms to limit what they can do while filling their role, but paladins have been a balancing problem for as long as I can remember.

Which brings up the old question: Why do classes need to be balanced in a PvE game?  I don't think they need to be.  PvE is all about whacking foozles and collecting loot. 

[Sjofn]

Well, for starters, people who play the shitty class at whacking foozles and collecting loot will be pissed off they suck at it.

[Rasix]

I'd rather the pure dps stay DPS.  I've taken up a warlock as a main and am finishing up leveling my old forgotten rogue (parked at 68 since midway through TBC). I'll be making a goblin hunter with the xpac.  I've relegated my DK and shaman to mere crafting/daily bots.  I've decided not to level my druid, which already has epic flying.  

I'm sick of people asking me to tank or heal.  I don't like doing either.  I don't like playing a class that can even do that anymore because my DPS will be affected indirectly by my ability to take a beating or play GRID/clique whack-a-mole.  Plus, it's a lot easier as a time-starved player if you can focus on one roll without having the others even available.  

[Nebu]

I'm sick of people asking me to tank or heal.  I don't like doing either.  

Few people like doing these things.  They do it because it's a steady way to get groups and/or they enjoy controlling the flow of the action. 

MMO's will improve greatly when the healer/tank need goes away.  I don't see this happening as long as they cling to the diku model. 

[Ragnoros]

I'm sick of people asking me to tank or heal.  I don't like doing either.  

Few people like doing these things.  They do it because it's a steady way to get groups and/or they enjoy controlling the flow of the action.  

MMO's will improve greatly when the healer/tank need goes away.  I don't see this happening as long as they cling to the diku model.  

I'd Like to think that Blizzard's next MMO will forgo the Diku model. Because frankly they would be hard pressed to do a better job at it than they already have. Sure they could just reskin WoW with Starcraft or whatever. But I'd like to hope they have bigger plans. Either way I doubt it will have traditional healer/tank/dps rolls.

The Death Knight is a good example of roll blurring/simplification . You get DPS stance, Tank stance, and PvP Stance, more or less anyway, and no matter what stance you are in you are using basically the same skills. The only thing standing in your way is gear, which is really the biggest cockblack in WoW, beyond class restrictions or any other issues. They could quite easily make a class that was able to fill any roll with one set of gear using a similar system. Heck retrofitting a Warlock would be cake.

Stance one is Heal, now in exchange for (much) less damage your skills leach life (enough to be a "proper" healer) to your party or raid.
Stance two is Tank, gives you permanent demon form, with your caster stats becoming your demon's tanking stats.
Stance three is DPS, PEW PEW.

With the introduction of the DK this scenario seems a lot less far fetched than it might have been in the past. While Cataclysm is revamping old zones rather than old game play-- logically a better choice for attracting and retaining players--I would be very surprised if the following expansion is just five/ten more levels and associated content.

/derail

[Fordel]

Well, for starters, people who play the shitty class at whacking foozles and collecting loot will be pissed off they suck at it.

To say nothing of the fact most encounters in WoW demand some kind of minimum DPS benchmark and utility.

[K9]

Few people like doing these things.  They do it because it's a steady way to get groups and/or they enjoy controlling the flow of the action. 

MMO's will improve greatly when the healer/tank need goes away.  I don't see this happening as long as they cling to the diku model. 

I know plenty of people who enjoy tanking and healing; hardly a 'few' relative to all the people I play with. It's a different style of gameplay to DPS, which I find frankly dull and less engaging than healing. What you assert reflects your particular bias, rather than a true statement about how people like to play the game.

[Nebu]

I know plenty of people who enjoy tanking and healing; hardly a 'few' relative to all the people I play with. It's a different style of gameplay to DPS, which I find frankly dull and less engaging than healing. What you assert reflects your particular bias, rather than a true statement about how people like to play the game.

What do you see played more: tank specced toons, healing specced toons, or dps spec toons? 

I'm going to bet that more people play dps specced toons as their main than both tanks and healers combined.  You know this just by watching LFG or looking at shouts for groups. 

[Merusk]

Sheep - A lot of what you said re: gear is starting to happen in Cata with the Mastery stat.  All we need now is the final step towards normalizing the stats a CLASS uses rather than a Spec uses.

The class role thing, yeah we've already seen rogues tank in BC days.  I had a friend who built a defense leather set and tanked some of the easier heroics. It was hilarious.  Those are the same classes disappearing on my server, too, and I imagine all others.  Blizz just needs to recognize this is why these classes are disappearing and shift towards implementing such changes.

[Merusk]

I love tanking 5-mans but hate tanking raids.  Raid tanking involves so much more bullshit and lets you use so few of your abilities that I'd rather 4-button DPS than tanking.  Plus, you don't get yelled at for messing a button or some stupid small flashy mechanic you didn't know about when you dps the way you do as a raid tank.  Instead you get laughed at and given shit.  It's much less stress, so I go for that role.  How many others do it for the same reason?

Healing just takes a special kind of mental disorder to enjoy.  Most healers I've known do it for the reason you listed, Nebu, and said they'd much rather DPS.  For every 3 of them I've come across one that did it for the adoration (Healers always seem to have this group of folks that love them and have always been at the center of the guild melodrama I've witnessed) and maybe one that said they really really like it.

[Nebu]

Healing just takes a special kind of mental disorder to enjoy.  Most healers I've known do it for the reason you listed, Nebu, and said they'd much rather DPS.  For every 3 of them I've come across one that did it for the adoration (Healers always seem to have this group of folks that love them and have always been at the center of the guild melodrama I've witnessed) and maybe one that said they really really like it.

I almost always play healers in MMOs.  In EQ, I did it because I thought it was what I enjoyed.  In every MMO since, I've played healer because I hate playing in groups with shitty healers and found that playing the healer was the easiest way to avoid that.  Now I'm the shitty healer in the group!  

Let's be honest here.  As a healer you spend your entire play session staring at the interface while the rest of the group gets to watch the action unfold.  Until healers are allowed to heal interactively rather than reactively, healing in MMO's will continue to suck.  

[Merusk]

Without a doubt.  Disc priests are the closest to it, but they're still staring at the interface 99% of the time.

[AutomaticZen]

I love tanking 5-mans but hate tanking raids.  Raid tanking involves so much more bullshit and lets you use so few of your abilities that I'd rather 4-button DPS than tanking.  Plus, you don't get yelled at for messing a button or some stupid small flashy mechanic you didn't know about when you dps the way you do as a raid tank.  Instead you get laughed at and given shit.  It's much less stress, so I go for that role.  How many others do it for the same reason?

Healing just takes a special kind of mental disorder to enjoy.  Most healers I've known do it for the reason you listed, Nebu, and said they'd much rather DPS.  For every 3 of them I've come across one that did it for the adoration (Healers always seem to have this group of folks that love them and have always been at the center of the guild melodrama I've witnessed) and maybe one that said they really really like it.

My Paladin is Prot/Holy.  You mess up as a tank, everyone dies.  Your gear has to be top-notch even in pugs.  And if you're not in a guild already, they already have their tanks, so you're probably not getting subbed into their raids.

And Holy I spend the entire time looking at Grid.

[Tannhauser]

I am another person who plays shitty healers.  I honestly like healing, most of the time I can sit back and  let the other guys fight for my xp and loot.
Also, I don't want to tank and dps'ers are a dime a dozen.  Also I get groups fast because the healer spot is the hardest one to fill.

[Fordel]

Most people play DPS because it's the most self sufficient.

There is pretty much no situation in game where moar dps is bad. Or it's irrelevant or helpless.


You can have too many tanks and healers and both specs suffer from group dependency or lack of role in some aspect of the game. I see a lot more tanks around these days, simply because farming or pvping as a tank spec isn't totally brutal.