Patch 3.3

[Paelos]

The worst itemization I've seen in TOC was boots and capes. The reality with weapons in 25 man was there are 13 weapons and OHs, and only 3 of those drop off the last boss. It was much better in my view than in previous situations like Saph and KT holding all the awesome.

Also Shrike, the Jaraxxus ax isn't that bad. It's not best in slot, but at a certain point it just doesn't matter for the next tier of content.

[Shrike]

It's fast. Can't use it. You'd be better off with the hammers from 5man ToC.

And, yeah, cloaks suck. I'd forgotten about this. I"m mostly in 245 gear (except weapons--fuck you very much, Ghostwalker), but still rocking a 219 cloak from 10man Uld. I don't recall where the 232/245/258 physical dps one drops from, but I think it's Jar. He just never drops it. I got lucky with boots, but at least there are LW patterns out there to make the 226 ones and they were close to BiS in Uld.

Cloaks and weapons? Yeah, good luck there. You'll need it--and I don't have it, evidently. Truthfully, the cloak thing doesn't bother me that much, or any individual armor slot. But weapons? Hell, that's the bulk of enhance dps, and the fucking things never drop! From the last boss, no less. It's the worst kind of bullshit. Rogue daggers and swords fall like rain from early bosses, but axes and maces? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. It's pure unadultered bullshit. Again, fuck you, Ghostwalker.

Now I feel better. Sorta.

[Selby]

Cloaks are really strange.  I got the PvP one from VoA the first week it was out, and that's been hands down the *only* cloak I saw drop remotely close to it was last week in TotC-25 and the stats were almost identical to it.

[Paelos]

Shrike needs a drink while he's raiding. 

[Shrike]

Hell yeah.   

[K9]

Confirmed for this coming reset.

[Paelos]

Getcha popcorn ready.

[Ashamanchill]

 

[Sheepherder]

Confirmed for this coming reset.

Shrike is getting a drink this reset, and everyone is reaching for the popcorn?  What?

[Selby]

I have begun the patching process.  Perhaps it will be done by the time I get home... ;-)

My new guild's GM is mandating everyone "serious" and "committed" to a 4 day a week raiding schedule as he wants all of the content cleared as soon as possible.  It's funny to watch the drama unfold.

[Signe]

It was done really fast.  Minutes.  Log in server is up, there isn't any message but the servers are all still down.  I saw patch notes but then they disappeared.  I'm sure there's nothing wrong and it'll all go very smoothly because they're, you know, pros.

And your new guilds GM doesn't sound like much of a fun guy.  I'm almost glad I dislike raiding so much now.  Most of these raiding guilds sound like they're run by a bunch of nazis.

[Dren]

At first I thought it was weird that our GM never leads raids.  Now, I understand and agree completely.  I firmly believe Raids are something guilds can do, not who they are.  If Raids are the be all and end all of your guild, that way leads failure preceded by mucho guild drama.  You might get all your fancy pants and shirts to drop, but a month or two later you'll be wondering where it all went wrong!

[Rasix]

Most of these raiding guilds sound like they're run by a bunch of nazis.

Depends.  My first serious raid guild was run by a pretty nice guy.  The raid leaders were complete assholes and were eventually booted and replaced. My latest raid guild that I left when my son was born was run by a loot hungry, power crazed lunatics.  They were not pleasant people.

I've yet to see rational, calm, and competent. I'm sure it's out there but I don't have the time anymore to see.

[Nebu]

I've yet to see rational, calm, and competent. I'm sure it's out there but I don't have the time anymore to see.

I really don't think that the raiding endgame is designed for rational, calm, and competent personality types.  It's for alpha personalities with a serious case of achiever mentality.  Isn't that precisely why they want to raid those instances multiple times to begin with? 

[Delmania]

My new guild's GM is mandating everyone "serious" and "committed" to a 4 day a week raiding schedule as he wants all of the content cleared as soon as possible.  It's funny to watch the drama unfold.

At this point, I kindly remind your GM that WoW is a game that is meant for entertainment, and not work, and promptly /gquit.

[Rasix]

What's going to be funny are the guilds that insist on raiding today even when the servers completely poop themselves and everyone is distracted by the shinies.   Ohh to be a fly on the wall..

[Soulflame]

I'd like to think I'm calm and rational, but then again, I did not seek the GM role.  It was forced on me.   

[Ingmar]

We finally learned our lesson and just canceled tonight.

EDIT: I like to think I'm rational calm and competent, but I can feel myself losing the first 2 as I improve at the 3rd.

[Soulflame]

What's going to be funny are the guilds that insist on raiding today even when the servers completely poop themselves and everyone is distracted by the shinies.   Ohh to be a fly on the wall..

I told the guild we're hitting ToC tonight, and ICC tomorrow.  Mostly because of how god-awful Ulduar's release was.

I figure if the servers are broken enough that we can't raid ToC, no one will be terribly crushed by this.

[SurfD]

Not sure why I am even attmpting to log in at the moment.

Haven't even been able to get to the character select screen, I just keep getting a "you have been disconnected from the server" message and booted back to login.

Servers are probably being hammered like a 2 bit hooker right now....

[Merusk]

What's going to be funny are the guilds that insist on raiding today even when the servers completely poop themselves and everyone is distracted by the shinies.   Ohh to be a fly on the wall..

I've long held the notion that my Guild Leader has NOTHING else going on in his life.  He gets irritable when the guild doesn't raid 5 times a week, even during this ToC cycle where three nights was stretching it.  He also logs in from shitty hotel connections to attempt to raid, rather than see the nightlife or even play some single player game on his laptop.  I'm fairly certain he's also single and has no motivation to find a significant other, despite being in his late 30's.

 Of course this means, even as we sit here unable to login or even find a stable server, the evening's raid has yet to be canceled.  If previous patches are any indication, it won't be canceled until 5 mins before raid time, or until we actually get in and the lag defeats us more often than the mobs.   It will be "epic."  

Ed: Note that my server, Alleria, is so damn unstable that last night when they fired up the patch servers the lag spiked so high that the 10 man ToC my guild was running had a shaman take 50k damage without dying because the server wasn't registering it.

[LK]

He could have all the motivation in the world (like me) but if he lacks people skills (like me) then he's going to fall flat on his face and fail (like me).

[Merusk]

If you're motivated in that direction, sitting at home 5+ nights a week playing Warcraft isn't the best possible way of furthering that goal.  Going out and interacting with real live humans is.  It also has the side effect of fixing the people skills problem over time as well.

[Paelos]

I'd like to think I'm calm and rational, but then again, I did not seek the GM role.  It was forced on me.   

This is pretty much how I feel about my raid leading. I'm very cool with people that try their best and show up, and I don't try to run off people who struggle in the meters. I usually suggest to them a person who I also know is a good player to give them some tips on how to gear their toon or improve their play. In every case, the players have made large improvements.

But then again, my raid is based on everyone playing just well enough to slowly clear the regular 25 mans. We don't even bother with heroic, as we're the kind of group that prefers openly drinking and making fun of each other on a raid.

[Nebu]

This is pretty much how I feel about my raid leading. I'm very cool with people that try their best and show up, and I don't try to run off people who struggle in the meters.

I think I found one of many reasons why I will never enjoy raiding in an MMO again.  If the raid leader (aka the boss) is assessing my performance, in a game, how do I differentiate this from a second job?

I understand that you want everyone to pull their weight in a raid, but when programs exist to finger point at the underachievement of individuals then the "game" has gone beyond entertainment.


I don't mean to slight you as the GM Paelos.  It's the system that irks me.

[Merusk]

You're looking at it wrong. It's not about the underachievement of individuals, it's about making certain individuals are contributing to the team effort.   Team sports analog again.  Sometimes it's not about you.

It's like saying, "I'll never play in a competitive softball league again. They had the audacity to ask that I wear a glove and then bitched when I didn't catch that fly ball that was a foot in front of me while I was scoping out the ladies in the bleachers!"

[Ingmar]

I dunno, is a measuring stick or a scale inherently evil? Damage meters just measure things. It is up to us what we do with the results of that measurement.

I use them for a few things, in our raids:

- I keep an eye on which people do well and which don't, so that on a given night I can make sure I have a couple of the good people to make up for the rest.
- There are several fights where you have to split up dps on 2 targets that have to die at the same time; the meters help me make that call on a given night so we don't have a screwup.
- I use them to measure my own performance and see where I can improve.
- I use them to help spot problems after wipes to see what changes we can make in strategy, role assignment, etc., on the second try.

It all boils down much more to a given group's approach to raiding than it does what tools are available.

[Nebu]

You're looking at it wrong. It's not about the underachievement of individuals, it's about making certain individuals are contributing to the team effort.   Team sports analog again.  Sometimes it's not about you.

It's all easy to say when "that person" isn't you.  What happens when it is? 

I was recruited as both a baseball and football player at a very competitive level.  When I play on work-related softball teams now, I don't monitor the performance of each individual on my team and comment on their ability to play.  I cheer them on for showing up and trying.  If we lose, then we lose.  It's not worth deflating the morale of someone that's trying just because they suck at a sport that I happen to excel at.   If they were to ask for my input to improve, then I'll do what I can.  In the meantime, I just applaud the fact that they aren't sitting in their living room. 

When you start looking at the performance of the individuals then you better also start asking yourself what your own motivation is.  I don't care how many errors our first baseman makes.  I care that they're having fun.  My days of all that competitive shit are long behind me. 

[Ingmar]

I care that they're having fun.

Making sure that people are having fun is important. Unfortunately one of the ways to guarantee that *nobody* has fun is to bring a lineup that is guaranteed to fail. People, generally, want to win, and have more fun when they do*. A raid leader, in most guilds, has to walk a fine line between just not ever taking the 'bad' players, and creating lineups that have a chance of success. For me it isn't that hard, as when things are going normally for us we have 13-15 signups for 10 spots. Everyone knows they have to sit some weeks, so I can pick and choose a lineup that will be OK, and as long as nobody sits 2 weeks in a row, people don't feel like they're being singled out for some kind of performance failure.

PUGs are an ugly case, because usually everyone is out for themselves, and there are certainly some guilds that take a PERFORMANCE IS EVERYTHING FEELINGS ARE NOTHING approach but I have my doubts that it is anything like a majority.

*Particularly talking about PVE here. It is a lot easier to have fun losing to other players than it is losing to an NPC.

[Paelos]

I tell people the same things about meters everytime they ask if I care about them. "There's always going to be someone at the top, someone at the bottom, and a bunch of people in the middle. What we need to know is that everyone is in the same ballpark, and nobody is chilling out in the parking lot." Then I threaten to add more cliches until they shut up.

The true fact is that many boss fights have enrage timers, and they come down to simple math. Either your raid is over X and you can win, or you are under X with everyone alive and you have absolutely no chance. I hate enrage timers personally, but ppl say we need them to make sure the dps is important or something. I think it's just shitty design. I remember when running out of mana used to be your enrage timer, but I guess we're long beyond that.

Also, Nebu having fun while losing only works if your team is on board with that mentality. What if half the people hated losing and you had four other people on the sidelines who were great players? It all depends on the kind of group you choose.

[Nebu]

I agree with both of your points.  I think that they encompass the reasons why I prefer solo play or play with people that I know are 100% on the same page.  I don't want to interfere with anyone's fun anymore than I want them to affect my own.  It just seems that raiding and loot bring out the absolute worst aspects of most people I encounter in gaming.  In many cases it's worse than the behavior I see in pvp.  

Sorry for the derail.

[Paelos]

There's no doubt about that. Even if you set the tone as a casual raid bent on fun and slow progress over mix/maxing, those bad-types will still try to get in and fuck with your plans because they believe they are good enough to get on a hardcore roster. The sad fact is that they aren't, but that doesn't stop them from making suggestions based on the way this other team does it, or making stinks about not having a loot system and that all the "bad" players are winning rolls, or in general just being a pain in the ass.

Now, if you're like me, you enjoy casually listening to them and prodding them with a stick to piss them off. They threaten to leave, and then never do. Then time for more poking!

It's like a game within a game. 

[Merusk]

Soling brings it out just as much.. or else you've never had a kill stolen before or encountered a high level farming an area for faction without concern for the folks trying to level up.   People are dicks to each other, and exponentially so when anonymity comes in to play.  Nothing new.

[WindupAtheist]

Oh yeah, the drama over killstealing between solo players in WoW is just as thick as the raider drama.

Wait what?  

[Musashi]

I don't really know what's going on here.  The casual softball analogy was  , though.

I just stopped by to say that I just tried the new LFG daily deal with the Emblems of Frost and the money, and the cross-server dude that appeared in our group of four instantaneously.  It's pretty fucking awesome.