EQ 'Next'

[raydeen]

grunk ran an exploit that crashed the thread and allowed rogue conversations to run unrestricted.

[UnSub]

What else would there be to do in a thread about the completely unknown next version of EQ other than 1) reminisce about EQ experiences and / or 2) derail it?

[Kageru]

doomcast!

The next EQ will be designed solely for the PS3 with 3 buttons for attacks and 1 button for looting. It will be made a lot more linear to reduce confusion and 90% of the development effort will be going into gibs and special effects. Tanks and support classes will be removed because who has the patience for that when you could be killing shit?

[Murgos]

What's this got to do with Shadowbane?

Why don't you tell us?

[schild]

doomcast!

The next EQ will be designed solely for the PS3 with 3 buttons for attacks and 1 button for looting. It will be made a lot more linear to reduce confusion and 90% of the development effort will be going into gibs and special effects. Tanks and support classes will be removed because who has the patience for that when you could be killing shit?

So, Untold Legends. If you're gonna doomcast, do try harder.

[John Difool]

They should bring back "vanilla" EQ for PS3 and call it Chronicles of Norrath.

[schild]

They should bring back "vanilla" EQ for PS3 and call it overdesigned trash for nostalgic walking wallets.

Sup.

[John Difool]

Point taken. Sadly.

[Tannhauser]

How about make EQ2 with less button mashing.  That's the only thing that keeps me away from it.

Weird I know, just how I feel.  Hitting 20 buttons to kill a single mob is not fun.

[Murgos]

How about make EQ2 with less button mashing.  That's the only thing that keeps me away from it.

Weird I know, just how I feel.  Hitting 20 buttons to kill a single mob is not fun.

We tried 1 button.  Most people liked that even less.

[eldaec]

How about make EQ2 with less button mashing.  That's the only thing that keeps me away from it.

Weird I know, just how I feel.  Hitting 20 buttons to kill a single mob is not fun.

Then play Vanguard.


This is not a recommendation you understand, but if that's what you want....

[Numtini]

Is your problem with EQ2 that you have more abilities or is the problem that combat is slower?

While I agree that while soloing the slower combat is not as much fun, when you're grouping or raiding, imho it improves the gameplay a great deal providing time to think, adjust, and making it less of a weird ritualized dance.

If the number of options is a problem, I just plain enjoy having more options.

[Draegan]

I feel like I'm playing the piano when I play EQ2.  Plus the graphics and sounds are terrible.

[Lantyssa]

I can only handle about five regular abilities unless the combat is really slow, or it has a staged bar.  My reflexes aren't great so more than that and I have problems.

In WoW for example, I need my interrupts on key four or five or I just won't be able to fire them off in time.  That, however, means I can't have a regularly used ability there.  Swordmasters in WAR however, had stances.  With a mod that switched my bar depending on the stance, I ended up having three bars of 4-5 abilities, which I could handle, and was surprisingly good at.

EQ2?  I'd have a bar full of abilities with the one above it almost all duplicates.  Then I'd just start hitting 1-10, then clicking one up 1-10, and maybe then two-up 1-10...  I never could focus on the combat itself because I was playing my cast bars.

[HaemishM]

doomcast!

The next EQ will be designed solely for the PS3 with 3 buttons for attacks and 1 button for looting. It will be made a lot more linear to reduce confusion and 90% of the development effort will be going into gibs and special effects. Tanks and support classes will be removed because who has the patience for that when you could be killing shit?

The only way to make EQ games more linear would be to put everyone in 1 zone and force them to walk single-file along one road from point A to point 5 for 50 levels.

[shiznitz]

How about make EQ2 with less button mashing.  That's the only thing that keeps me away from it.

I don't understand this criticism. If you have less buttons to push, then auto-attack and forget is the way the gameplay will move.  Even single player games give the characters lots of abilities to use in combat (Dragon Age) or else you are just spamming the fire button (Mass Effect).

Actually let me rephrase: I understand what your criticism is pointing to, but I don't see a way to change it in any significant way. We are playing these games on devices with buttons. How else do we interact other than pushing buttons?

[Draegan]

EQ2 button pushing is in line with using damage ability 1-10 that do all the same thing except a minor tweak to it.

I don't mind a lot of abilities to use like my Warrior in WOW.  I have a ton of different abilities that do DIFFERENT things.  I don't want to play a mage and have to cycle through 10 different damage abilities with all different cooldowns.

[Dtrain]

I don't think the "EQ2 button mashing" complaint is an idle gripe. The game may have changed since, but when I remember played, I didn't have enough hotkeys between 1 - = including CTRL+ and ALT+ banks (36 hotkeys!) to contain all of the standard macros, combat abilities, AA abilities and items I would use in a regular non-raid play session. I would CTRL+ and ALT+ my most standard button presses, and for my less common actions I would need to SHIFT+ to another hotkey bank so I could press yet another number. And now that I think back, some of my macros even combined 2 related abilities into 1 key when possible.

BUTTON MASHING HELL.

IMO a game should be designed for:
1 hotkey bar of actions
1 hotkey bar of items

That's plenty of options if the game has a cohesive design.

Of course there should be options to have more macros for when people want to get fancy/save button presses, etc., but that's not the point I'm arguing.

[schild]

Why would I want developers to design for hotbars at all? That line of thought doesn't even make sense to me.

[Draegan]

So how would you play Dragon Age without a hotbar?

[Koyasha]

What really ticks me off about control systems is that all these gadgets we have with additional buttons for gaming generally don't actually ADD buttons that we can use - the buttons have to be programmed to duplicate the functions of normal keyboard buttons, so I have a G13 with 24*3 extra buttons and a G15 with 18*3 extra buttons, but those buttons all have to be programmed to duplicate normal keyboard buttons, or button-combinations, rather than being their own unique buttons that I can map directly to an action.

If I could use all these buttons as unique buttons and map them to various controls within the game directly, I wouldn't have a problem with hotbars and whatever, in general.  As it is, I find myself running out of buttons in many games, because there's only so many 'free' buttons on my keyboard, and all my peripherals don't improve the situation.

[Rendakor]

You expect every MMO to code support for every keyboard's extra buttons? 

[Koyasha]

Honestly I have no idea how this sort of thing works on the technical side, but if somebody could work out some kind of standard that could begin to be implemented, so that these things just work right, it would be nice.  I kind of figure this would be more of an issue for the manufacturers of the keyboards rather than the game makers, but I don't know.  I mean, I have noticed that my mouse buttons are usually regarded as unique buttons in games, except some games where none but the main two buttons can be mapped to anything.  I really have no idea how it works, but whether it's in the game programmer's camp or the hardware manufacturer's, or somewhere in between, I just want more buttons to actually be more buttons.

The worst are some games that even have promotions where there are specific pieces of hardware that bear the game's name and such, and yet they have no special support for that hardware.  The least they could do when they make a branded piece of hardware is add support for each of those buttons to be an actual unique button.

[Sheepherder]

Honestly I have no idea how this sort of thing works on the technical side, but if somebody could work out some kind of standard that could begin to be implemented, so that these things just work right, it would be nice.

There is a standard.  As outlined in this standard, keyboards with macro keys are non-standard keyboards.

[shiznitz]

I don't think the "EQ2 button mashing" complaint is an idle gripe. The game may have changed since, but when I remember played, I didn't have enough hotkeys between 1 - = including CTRL+ and ALT+ banks (36 hotkeys!) to contain all of the standard macros, combat abilities, AA abilities and items I would use in a regular non-raid play session. I would CTRL+ and ALT+ my most standard button presses, and for my less common actions I would need to SHIFT+ to another hotkey bank so I could press yet another number. And now that I think back, some of my macros even combined 2 related abilities into 1 key when possible.

BUTTON MASHING HELL.

IMO a game should be designed for:
1 hotkey bar of actions
1 hotkey bar of items

That's plenty of options if the game has a cohesive design.

Of course there should be options to have more macros for when people want to get fancy/save button presses, etc., but that's not the point I'm arguing.

That is inconvenient, yes, but if you only had 10 buttons and had to just cycle them constantly you would still be pushing the same numbers of buttons per fight.

[Numtini]

I guess EQ1 was perfect. Attack, taunt, kick!

[Demonix]

I guess EQ1 was perfect. Attack, taunt, kick!

The one thing I miss was the little macro I set up for when my PGT would go off.

YARRRRRRRRRR BERSERKER ELF!

[shiznitz]

I guess EQ1 was perfect. Attack, taunt, kick!

Exactly. The balance between that and button mashing is different for everyone.  The big improvement for EQ2 was that I wasn't spending 90% of my time watching a chat scroll box, even though a lot of that burden was removed by Ventrilo.

Planetside was great because you didn't even need chatbox to play. Once again, this was enabled by a tool not included in the game - TS or Ventrilo.

The next real step for MMOs is combat that targets a specific space, not a mob. Aim for the head or torso. Cast AE spells that have to anticipate a mob's location after casting time ends. A game with real, true collision to an extent that you could play football or basketball with the engine would be nice.

[Dtrain]

Why would I want developers to design for hotbars at all? That line of thought doesn't even make sense to me.

Here's the basis for my thinking: hotbars are a major element of a game's interface. What lives on a hotbar defines a portion of the user's interraction with the title. If I need to cycle through 3 (or more) hotbars in a fight to be effective, and the abilities that I'm triggering have very little situational value, the fight is going to end up feeling frantic and a little braindead. On the other hand, if I'm triggering abilities and items from a focused pool of hotkeys, and those abilities offer a wide range of situational considerations (skill chains, increased damage potential, situational status effects, positioning, resistances, ally disposition, etc.) the game is going to feel more organic and strategic.

That is inconvenient, yes, but if you only had 10 buttons and had to just cycle them constantly you would still be pushing the same numbers of buttons per fight.

All things being equal, I'd rather press fewer buttons if there isn't a lot of variety in the effects. And if all we're doing is standing toe to toe with an enemey (so to speak,) and pressing the same patern of buttons each fight it doesn't sound like a very good game to me.

I guess EQ1 was perfect. Attack, taunt, kick!

3 abilities is obviously too few. 36 is too many. There's a sweet spot somewhere in between.

[Koyasha]

I guess EQ1 was perfect. Attack, taunt, kick!

Honestly I think EQ1 was perfect - as a bard, at least.  Cleric also caught it pretty spot on, in the later ages once Complete Healing wasn't the all-purpose tool for every situation, and was merely one of the tools at a cleric's disposal.

[Draegan]

My protection specced warrior in WOW is perfect at level 71.

[trias_e]

Ability design needs to be about choice and tactical significance.  I didn't enjoy EQ2 because the abilities existed to be cycled mindlessly, with little individual effect.  Honestly, I would rather play EQ1...at least there I could eat a sandwich during combat.  WoW does a bit better in this regard but still has alot of spam for the sake of spam.  However, in WoW, you're often spamming 2-3 abilities instead of 10 cycled ones, which I actually find an improvement.  And your other abilities are generally the good kind:  Stuff to be used in various circumstances but not all the time.  Guild Wars was probably the best ability design I've seen so far in the MMORPG genre in this regard.

Auto attack as a baseline is ok with me, because I don't see much of a difference between auto attack and spamming skills constantly other than busy work.  There might be a better solution than 'autoattack', but it sure isn't constant ability spamming, at least not for me.

[Koyasha]

I agree with this for the most part.  If an ability consists essentially of 'cause more damage' and is not situational, has no secondary effects, etc, I feel like it should be folded into autoattacking.  I shouldn't have to press a button in order to do my normal amount of damage, in my opinion.  Button presses should be for something that has a significant effect on the tactical situation, not just to do your standard amount of damage.  An ability 'rotation' is absurd to me, because it implies that I should be constantly hitting this sequence of buttons in order to do my normal amount of damage.

[Lantyssa]

A 30+ scrapper or tank in CoH was about right for the number of attacks.

If those attacks could be upgraded to do something more, or morph into chains (ala the WAR Swordmaster+mod I mentioned), it would be good for variety without overload.

[Ratman_tf]

3 abilities is obviously too few. 36 is too many. There's a sweet spot somewhere in between.

For me, it's 10. If I have to hit some kind of Ctrl-Alt-Del-Funct-Ent-Spc-NumLoc-F12 combo to fire off an ability, I'm probably just going to forget about it and learn to make do without it.