Cataclysm

[Merusk]

Some individual players do.  Most don't seem to give it a second thought.   I continue to maintain he was projecting.

[Ashamanchill]

No, they went into Cata saying "we need to make stuff more meaningful", if they just went "fuck it" we would still have Wrath's systems. 

Fucking exactly. The devs listened to the wrong people and it shaved off part of their playerbase.

[apocrypha]

See, I knew if I gave you guys a day or so that you'd end up having some fun with that quote. 

[Rendakor]

They just hotfixed Valor Points back onto the T11 bosses sans Argoloth. I'm never running a fucking heroic again!

[Rokal]

Surprised they reversed that. Definitely in favor though. I was getting close to the VP cap between BH and Firelands, but seriously, you're going to give VP for heroics and BH, but not T11? Even after the T11 nerfs, there is no way Cho'gal, Al'akir, or Nef are easier than Throne of Tides or the faceroll BH boss :p

[SurfD]

They just hotfixed Valor Points back onto the T11 bosses sans Argoloth. I'm never running a fucking heroic again!

Except that it is something like 35 / 45 VP per boss in 10 / 25 man, meaning that even if you full clear all 12 bosses in the T11 tier, you are only getting 420 VP for a 10 man guild, which is under half the weekly cap.

[Ashamanchill]

That's not too bad though. It beats nothing.

[Rendakor]

They just hotfixed Valor Points back onto the T11 bosses sans Argoloth. I'm never running a fucking heroic again!

Except that it is something like 35 / 45 VP per boss in 10 / 25 man, meaning that even if you full clear all 12 bosses in the T11 tier, you are only getting 420 VP for a 10 man guild, which is under half the weekly cap.

But that 420 VP added to what we get from BH and the first couple bosses in FL means I'll be damn close.

[Shrike]

Hell yeah. I was hoping they'd do this. It'll make hitting the cap a lot easier, since we're just getting our feet (hooves) wet in FL right now. Only three bosses down, so need all the VP I can get.

After the absolute shitfest heroics have been lately (summer, VP scroungers), I'd like to never see one again outside a guild run. Especially the troll ones. They've been so bad I"ve been tempted to necro the bad groups thread. Main reason I haven't is that it isn't anything we haven't seen before. Still, it's bloody annoying and the less I see of the inside of heroics the better.

[Sheepherder]

Is it alright if I hate Ghostcrawler because constant button mashing is a retarded game mechanic?

Which class are you talking about here?

Do you need a list?

"You must hit a button every 1 - 1.5 seconds until you're out of resource or you are losing damage/threat" is a stupid game mechanic.

[Ashamanchill]

I"ve been tempted to necro the bad groups thread.

Yeah, I hear ya brother.

[Sjofn]

Is it alright if I hate Ghostcrawler because constant button mashing is a retarded game mechanic?

Which class are you talking about here?

Do you need a list?

"You must hit a button every 1 - 1.5 seconds until you're out of resource or you are losing damage/threat" is a stupid game mechanic.

This isn't exactly new?

[Rasix]

They've been so bad I"ve been tempted to necro the bad groups thread.

Please don't.  For some reason that thread has the strange effect of making me want to play.  I can't explain it.

[Paelos]

They've been so bad I"ve been tempted to necro the bad groups thread.

Please don't.  For some reason that thread has the strange effect of making me want to play.  I can't explain it.

That's messed up. 

[Ivanneth]

Please don't.  For some reason that thread has the strange effect of making me want to play.  I can't explain it.

For me it triggers an "I can fix this!" reaction. Like when I hear about someone sucking at healing it makes me want to log my healer so I can heal properly and counterbalance their horribleness, "THIS is how you heal you stupid motherfucker"

Yes, it's completely irrational.

[Ingmar]

Is it alright if I hate Ghostcrawler because constant button mashing is a retarded game mechanic?

Which class are you talking about here?

Do you need a list?

"You must hit a button every 1 - 1.5 seconds until you're out of resource or you are losing damage/threat" is a stupid game mechanic.

Yes, give me a list.

And here's your hint: give me a list of classes that have been turned into rote button mashing classes *after* GC took over as the class lead.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Button mashing is different from having to continuously and furiously press buttons to stay competitive.  The first implies you are randomly hitting whatever key, the latter which he is referring to means that unless you are hitting a specific key every 1.5 seconds your dps will be terrible.

It's about rotations which leave no room for error and leave you tapping on your keys like a frantic gerbil.  What the terms that starcraft came up with, actions per second? or something like that?  It's fine for some games, I'm not sure people want that in wow, otherwise rated bg's and arena's would be much more popular than they are.

[Fordel]

Actions per minute (APM), which has nothing to do with what they are talking about in WoW. You'll never need more then like 40 APM in WoW, it's actually impossible to have more then like 60, thanks to the GCD.

[Sjofn]

It's about rotations which leave no room for error and leave you tapping on your keys like a frantic gerbil. 

Again, this is not new.

[Malakili]

Button mashing is different from having to continuously and furiously press buttons to stay competitive.  The first implies you are randomly hitting whatever key, the latter which he is referring to means that unless you are hitting a specific key every 1.5 seconds your dps will be terrible.

It's about rotations which leave no room for error and leave you tapping on your keys like a frantic gerbil.  What the terms that starcraft came up with, actions per second? or something like that?  It's fine for some games, I'm not sure people want that in wow, otherwise rated bg's and arena's would be much more popular than they are.

Even if you were to talk about APM in WoW, the needed APM is incredibly low.  There is a really low skill ceiling in terms of button pressing.  (You could argue there is a higher skill ceiling for things like situational awareness, which most people seem to lack in a major way.)   

[Rokal]

Button mashing is different from having to continuously and furiously press buttons to stay competitive.  The first implies you are randomly hitting whatever key, the latter which he is referring to means that unless you are hitting a specific key every 1.5 seconds your dps will be terrible.

It's about rotations which leave no room for error and leave you tapping on your keys like a frantic gerbil.  What the terms that starcraft came up with, actions per second? or something like that?  It's fine for some games, I'm not sure people want that in wow, otherwise rated bg's and arena's would be much more popular than they are.

APM for my rogue is about 15-20 if I'm doing my rotation right. The old design for rogues encouraged you to burn energy as fast as you could, and only use one combo builder and 1 finishing move. The current model is the opposite of button mashing, where rotations are slower and more deliberate.

Class design is still one of the areas where Cata really nailed it, for me at least.

[Sheepherder]

And here's your hint: give me a list of classes that have been turned into rote button mashing classes *after* GC took over as the class lead.

Quick question: when did the term "GCD locked" enter common (World of Warcraft neckbeard) parlance?

 

[Fordel]

That's not a list.

[Amaron]

There is a really low skill ceiling in terms of button pressing.

How is this now I wonder actually?   In all reality when I played better players actually did get in far more special attacks.   I'm curious how the addition of a queue has affected that though.

[Rasix]

WoW problem with "button mashing" has never been APM related. Some classes tended to veer pretty far into John Madden territory where you had a priority list that required a some extensive white-boarding.  Queuing doesn't help that at all.

Getting in more attacks is usually just being able to time the GCD v. your own latency.  Knowing when to fire off your next spell is pretty a pretty basic skill anyone that doesn't pull tard-level dps managed to get down in WoLK.

[Amaron]

Getting in more attacks is usually just being able to time the GCD v. your own latency.  Knowing when to fire off your next spell is pretty a pretty basic skill anyone that doesn't pull tard-level dps managed to get down in WoLK.

From examinations of logs I often saw in WOLK that really great players got in more attacks than simply really good players.    That's from looking at players who don't even have cast timers.   Classes like rogues and paladins which were retardedly easy to spam skills on.  Perhaps it was always just a matter of handling other mechanics in a timely fashion though.

[Fordel]

Casted DPS is even less APM dependent. You only need one input every 2 seconds as a caster for the most part.

[Amaron]

Casted DPS is even less APM dependent. You only need one input every 2 seconds as a caster for the most part.

Ahh I wasn't talking about APM.   I was referring to Malakili saying the skill cap for using abilities was low.   It seems that way to me too but oddly the numbers I would read in WOTLK never reflected that.

[Malakili]

There is a really low skill ceiling in terms of button pressing.

How is this now I wonder actually?   In all reality when I played better players actually did get in far more special attacks.   I'm curious how the addition of a queue has affected that though.

That was generally not knowing what to press, not physical inability to press quickly enough.  Those are two VERY different things.

[Rasix]

Knowing what to press is an even lower bar than APM.  Knowing where to stand, however...  

[Malakili]

Knowing what to press is an even lower bar than APM.  Knowing where to stand, however...  

More to the point, I think its just being able to look at the screen and process ALL the information quickly.  People can get out of stuff, but they can't get out of stuff AND pay attention to their rotation, and listen to voiced on vent, and whatever else.   The best raiders can do these all seamlessly.  Its not about inputs into the computer, its about inputs into your head.

[Sheepherder]

That's not a list.

True.

Hunter, (Combat) Rogue, and (Arms) Warrior for starters.  The "you must be spamming this button every goddamn GCD you're able when you're not doing anything else" specs.

[Sjofn]

I can't think of a time when rogues weren't like that.

[Ingmar]

I think it is worth noting that for warriors and rogues, there are other specs you can choose that are not as spammy, so they're offering a playstyle choice for the people who want it. If you'll recall, there were a number of people upset (including here) when they changed DKs to no longer be GCD locked, because they wanted that play style. Fury for example has plenty of time when you're waiting around for full rage so you can do your colossus smash rage dump, or between bloodthirsts when you don't have a raging blow proc and colossus smash is down. (They also made fury actually fun to play this expansion, which if we're going to be blaming GC for other changes, we should give him credit for that one.)

I don't have enough experience with new hunters to say much about them, but the only time you weren't mashing a button constantly on the old hunters was when you were OOM so I don't think we can lay that one at GC's feet.

[caladein]

Well, if we're talking about hitting a button every GCD on the dot, for the most part both Marksmanship and Survival (the only two I have raid experience with) will only not cast something if they've got a half-second or less left on one of their cooldown shots (i.e. Chimera Shot or Explosive Shot and Black Arrow) and already have the focus to cast it.