Cataclysm

[Lantyssa]

"We're implementing a system to let you play with friends."
"We're going to charge you extra to play with friends."

Not really surprising.

[Azazel]

It's only for 5 mans anyway so I'm not that interested, but I don't see the rage behind this. Don't like it? Don't use it, and the game goes on. They charge for faction changes, why wouldn't they charge for this?

If it were free I might have re-upped just for the chance to play with you bastards. I mean, you folks. Being an extra, paid service, I won't bother.


On to more important matters - The WoW LoreLOL movie - I could see them doing it as a kind of X-Men meets LotRO thing with the Horde/Alliance war and the war vs the Lich King in the background. That could actually work, as well. I mean, a similar thing is being discussed in the Thor thread about how Joe Pubic had never heard of Iron Man aside from the Sabbath song 5 years ago, let alone Nick Fury, Hawkeye, Ant-Man etc. How many people had heard of Storm or Cyclops outside of comic and gaming geeks? They can just have the faction leaders as the important part of the ensemble as the "unlikely allies".

Put it together with a series of "B-listers, character actors and a few relative unknowns - ie - Campbell as whatsisface - the human King who returned, a war against the zombies, Jessica Alba as a Blood Elf Mage, maybe The Rock as Thrall or Hellscream, and you're set. Peter Mayhew can play Cairne and die a noble death to Gary Oldman's Arthas at the end of Act 2. It'll be LOLore, but also worth watching.

Besides, most of us ex-or-inactive players would still go and watch it, zeitgeist past, or not. Wouldn't we?

[caladein]

I don't think I've seen a decision garner 11 capped threads in sequence to debate on why it sucks. And yet, the RealID cross server premium grouping thing has done it and kept rolling strong.

Things Not Being Free Induces Whinging, News at 10.  Flavor said whinging to taste with latent hatred of RealID (and DLC/microtransactions even though this is neither, but people's vocabulary is depressing) and you're good to go.

Really, that's the "reasons it sucks":

- It's not free.
- It's linked to usage of RealID.
- There's no pricing so everyone immediately assumes it's "too much".

[Malakili]

- It's not free.

Thats all that matters.  This, the iPhone app (android too maybe?), soon you'll be paying 20 bucks a month for WoW if you want everything.  I recall thinking there would be new MMOs which would cost 20 bucks a month, I didn't think this is the route we would take to get there though.

[Margalis]

It's only for 5 mans anyway so I'm not that interested, but I don't see the rage behind this. Don't like it? Don't use it, and the game goes on.

There are plenty of reasons to not like it. It's like the worst of Facebook games, where features that make the game better (or even just tolerable) cost extra.

They are asking people to pay more to get a better game experience. Not a neat extra or a one-time change or a cool costume.

Personally I believe that when devs create features that should be free, unlockable, included in the base game or whatever then charge for them it's in everyone's best interest to rage. Otherwise you end up with bullshit like half of the characters on the Marvel Ultimate Alliance select screen being grayed out or a game with basically zero unlockable content charging $2 for a single extra animation that works in a single mode.

It's the same principle has whacking a dog on the butt with a rolled up newspaper if he poops in the house.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It's not that it's a paid service that is getting everyone upset, it's that this paid service is no longer 'fluff'

[Azazel]

Things Not Being Free Induces Whinging, News at 10.  Flavor said whinging to taste with latent hatred of RealID (and DLC/microtransactions even though this is neither, but people's vocabulary is depressing) and you're good to go.

Really, that's the "reasons it sucks":

- It's not free.
- It's linked to usage of RealID.
- There's no pricing so everyone immediately assumes it's "too much".

How about this? I stopped playing WoW. My RL friends all stopped playing. My wife and I both have full sets of characters on Proudmoore, and we have a couple of casual friends ingame. (if they're still there next time we go back). My guild sucks, but it's at least slightly better than others I've been in in WoW, and I don't play hardocre enough to really become part of a community anyway, so good enough.

I'd like to play with (some) F13 people. I'm not paying to move any or all of my wife and my toons anywhere, though. Too many and I like them all being on the same server. I'm also not ever going to be deeply into the game enough to start from 1-80 again, let alone 85. And fuck another DK. I started a character on one of WUA's servers once, but you know, starting out as a fresh n00b while everyone else is level 50 or 70 or whatever.. the fun wears thin pretty quickly.

But, Like I said, I'd really like to muck around with some of the f13 crowd.

Right now I'm not a subscriber, and have no intent to go back anytime soon.
If this feature was rolled into the sub fee, I'd probably come back for a tryout when it went live. That's a 2-month sub min since I use timecards. x2 since my wife would resub too.

I also hate microtransactions sooo much that I have a nearly-full 360 HDD, and in WoW I have a sparkle pony, a baby griffon and a baby windrider. When I say, "I", I really mean both my wife and myself have these things in WoW. On our separate accounts.

RealID can also go suck a dick.


So anyway, my opinion only, anecdotal, etc etc, sure. But I don't hate microtransactions and DLC, it's a feature that would make me come back if it were included with a sub, and especially so without RealID. I'm not willing to pay extra. I'll keep not playing and spending my gaming dollar elsewhere. No crying, just some facts.

[Rasix]

- There's no pricing so everyone immediately assumes it's "too much".

If it's $1 it's too much just based on the principle of what they're doing here.   Maybe next they'll introduce solo dungeons!  "Only $5 for something that we should include in the service you already pay for.  But we won't, because Kotick's got his eye on a new Ferrari."

[Sjofn]

Yeah, "it's not free" means "it's too much" for me. And I am someone who is indeed willing to pay money for stupid shit like sparkle ponies and vanity pets. I am not cool with paying for something I think should be included in the sub fee, and "playing with your friends" is one of those things I think should be included.

That said, it's not going to affect me much. The characters I've been playing most are on the wrong faction from what my friends are playing ... and for the majority of them, I DO have a level 85 character on Doomhammer, where a lot of them tend to play (when they are actually playing).

[Rendakor]

It's not that it's a paid service that is getting everyone upset, it's that this paid service is no longer 'fluff'

Faction transfers aren't free. Neither are server transfers.

[Azuredream]

I think it makes a difference in terms of perception that transfers/mounts/etc are a one-shot fee and this new cross-realm feature is sub-based.

[Xanthippe]

Yeah, "it's not free" means "it's too much" for me. And I am someone who is indeed willing to pay money for stupid shit like sparkle ponies and vanity pets. I am not cool with paying for something I think should be included in the sub fee, and "playing with your friends" is one of those things I think should be included.

That said, it's not going to affect me much. The characters I've been playing most are on the wrong faction from what my friends are playing ... and for the majority of them, I DO have a level 85 character on Doomhammer, where a lot of them tend to play (when they are actually playing).

Agreed.  I also have a pony and vanity pets.  I don't mind paying microtransactions for fluff.  I don't like paying for character transfers but I understand why it costs money.

This?  It's insulting to offer for a fee. 

That said, it's not going to affect me at all, because I'm not playing.  None of the changes announced since I quit make me want to resub.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I could give the faction transfer/slippery slope argument but it oil down to this.

They are saying "We can allow for you to play with your friends across servers, we have the tech now. we want you to pay for the privledge to play with your friends."

People know how easy it is to have groups from across servers in dungeons, they are doing it NOW except they have to do it in pugs.

[caladein]

Small note, what we have now is still confined to datacenters.  Now, does making it so some Dungeon Finder groups could span the country a massive new expense commensurate with whatever they're going to charge?  No, I don't think so.  But saying "we have the tech now", at least to the scale needed, is probably also untrue.

(Also, according to the Wowpedia article on datacenters, they moved three of the four US ones sometime last year.  Just found that interesting.)

[Sheepherder]

But saying "we have the tech now", at least to the scale needed, is probably also untrue.

Except there isn't a free alternative to do this within a battlegroup or data center.

Plus, the armory already manages to serve up the data on every active character to anyone who wants to look.

[caladein]

But saying "we have the tech now", at least to the scale needed, is probably also untrue.

Except there isn't a free alternative to do this within a battlegroup or data center.

I was referring to Lakov's statement that they already have the tech in place for region-wide pre-made groups because we have one-datacenter PUGs through the Dungeon Finder now.

I'm loathe to armchair this, but I imagine it's not difficult to allow for inviting RealID friends to your group if your servers are both in the same datacenter.  A problem there is that "same datacenter" and even "same battlegroup" aren't terribly transparent constructs, much less so for those that have never been even vaguely serious Arena-era PvPers.

Going forward to region-wide Dungeon Finder groups (with or without RealID friends stuff) is where they're likely still need work.  At the time they moved to region-wide BGs and datacenter-wide dungeons, they said that that last step was much more difficult and something for later on if ever.

That could just have been them blowing smoke up our asses before announcing this, but I tend to assume incompetence before malice when it comes to MMO database design .

[El Gallo]

I have no problem with this costing money.  I'm much, much more offended by in-game stuff, even vanity pets, costing real money.

This is a meta-game thing, like server transfers, race/gender changes, or security fobs.  And the last thing I want is anything to do with that face-fucking RealID shitstain being free for anyone, anytime ever.

[Simond]

So...in-game cash purchases with no impact on gameplay = BAD but in-game cash purchases with an actual impact on gameplay = GOOD?

 

[Merusk]

Got the Horde Pally to 85 and tried BGs.. learned i'm on the only Battlegroup where Horde players are as retartedly bad as Alliance on every other BG I've ever played on.  My record for the last week is 5 Gilneas 2 wins, 4 AB's 2 wins, 13 SOTA 8 wins, 1 twin peaks 0 wins, 20 WSG 8 wins, 12 Isle 7 wins.  AV is the only one we've won consistently.  I've done 6 and won 6.   It's like mirrorland.

And whomever said the heroics have gotten better was wrong.  Players are still pants on the head retarted and in fact are worse, because now they complain when the new tank who only has 123k hps wants you to CC and interrupt things so they don't get splattered.  That's ignoring all the assholse in purples who bitch you can't hold aggro with your 339 gearscore but damned if they're going to cut dps back.

[Ingmar]

Um... if you add those all up you have played 61 matches and won 33. That's not 'retardedly bad' that is normal? Even if you throw out the 6 for 6 AV you won 27 times out of 55, which is almost exactly 50%.

[Merusk]

Hm, I suppose it only feels worse then because the Alliance victories have been by very large margins, where the Horde victories have been by narrow margins.  The last 3 WSG I did were 3/0 and the Gilneas was 1600/1000 while the AB we won was 1600/1490.  It's also the weekend where it's taken me 4 BGs with no daily win so far.  I'm frustrated.

[Sjofn]

I've found people perfectly fine in heroics, but I'm always the healer, and I always side with the tank, so the DPSers probably don't feel at liberty to bitch too loudly about our pace. Our tanks even ask for a vote for doing all of HoO or a rush job.

They've messed with how they organize PUGs through LFD so that you're more likely to get people from your server/battlegroup apparently, so maybe I just have the NICEST BATTLEGROUP EVER.

[Lt.Dan]

And whomever said the heroics have gotten better was wrong.  Players are still pants on the head retarted and in fact are worse, because now they complain when the new tank who only has 123k hps wants you to CC and interrupt things so they don't get splattered.  That's ignoring all the assholse in purples who bitch you can't hold aggro with your 339 gearscore but damned if they're going to cut dps back.

Not much different as a healer.  No way a fresh heroic geared can heal a tank without cc. Believe me I've tried and been chewed out by "knowledgeable" dps..

[Shrike]

They've messed with how they organize PUGs through LFD so that you're more likely to get people from your server/battlegroup apparently, so maybe I just have the NICEST BATTLEGROUP EVER.

Haven't been doing many daily randoms anymore (capped VP), but still do a few for money and the chance at enchanting materials (and from boredom). I've noticed that I"m getting a lot of AP folks in groups. I guess that means it's working as advertised. Three people from AP in one guild, one person from AP in another (me), and one random from a server I've never heard of before. Went smoothly enough (tank was a little light on threat) and queued up for two more with them. Beats the hell out of what I'd been seeing in the Zandalari dungeons.

[Mnemon]

battlegroups are only still used for arenas. for battlegrounds and dungeons your battlegroup is all of North America (this was a change they rolled out over a few weeks with the launch of Cata) ...

http://www.wowpedia.org/Battlegroups

[Merusk]

battlegroups are only still used for arenas. for battlegrounds and dungeons your battlegroup is all of North America (this was a change they rolled out over a few weeks with the launch of Cata) ...

http://www.wowpedia.org/Battlegroups

Yeah, except you still see more people from certain servers than other so either physical location or ping between server farms is making some sort of determination.  On Alleria I still see a lot of Illidian and Malygos people in BGs and dungeons and rarely do I see anyone from a server like Arthas.  However on Zul'Jin I see Arthas people all the time.

[caladein]

battlegroups are only still used for arenas. for battlegrounds and dungeons your battlegroup is all of North America (this was a change they rolled out over a few weeks with the launch of Cata) ...

The change you're probably referring to doesn't say that.  That made only Battlegrounds Region-wide, but for Dungeons it clumped them into four groups (which are just the datacenters).  I haven't been able to find any change to this set-up since, apart from some likely sloppy language from Curse.

In 4.1 they made it so Arena matchmaking was also not bound by Battlegroup although I'm having trouble finding if they're Region-wide or just by datacenter.  Part of that problem is that the patch notes entry is ambiguous to that and that a Blizzard Region (US/EU/KR) is different from what most people would call a region (Western/Eastern US) so normal posters aren't of much use.  Also, I don't do Arenas anymore so I can't just look myself .  4.1 also made it so the Dungeon Finder prefers people from your server, which seems to work well enough.

Battlegroups are still used for Arena ladders at this point.

[Rokal]

In case you aren't following the Rift threads, they're going to let everyone transfer a character a week for free. At the moment, it's just "select" (underpopulated?) servers, but still... on the heels of the cross-server dungeon pay service announcement, that's gotta sting.

Blizzard also lets people transfer from over-populated servers to underpopulated servers for free, so it really depends on how many servers Trion makes available for transfers. My guess is that they'll let people transfer to all but maybe the 2-3 most populated servers, judging from how they worded the announcement/FAQ.

[Ivanneth]

Hm, I suppose it only feels worse then because the Alliance victories have been by very large margins, where the Horde victories have been by narrow margins.  The last 3 WSG I did were 3/0 and the Gilneas was 1600/1000 while the AB we won was 1600/1490.  It's also the weekend where it's taken me 4 BGs with no daily win so far.  I'm frustrated.

Battleground PvP and some light 2v2 arenas were my endgame in WotLK, and the last time I checked my Battleground win/loss ratio as horde fluctuated around a 60% win rate.  The numbers for my alliance characters on that same server confirmed that rate - I'd win maybe 40% of the time and it was... infuriating. As horde I could count on winning Wintergrasp and getting at least one win for the BG daily. As alliance I'd content myself with a quick loss while using 20 stacks of tenacity to one-shot clothies in the fortress in WG. Then I would pray to the god of chance that I might be able to get a win in for the BG daily. Often I would have to log for the evening without being able to complete it. I finally gave up pvping as alliance completely after one evening with a 10 game losing streak.

Winning on the underdog side matches what you describe as well - Alliance victories were usually fought for with blood, sweat and tears while Horde victories felt effortless most of the time. If the Alliance put up a good fight then we (Horde) were surprised. If the Alliance won then both sides were shocked.  I was in the Nightfall Battlegroup, IIRC.

[El Gallo]

So...in-game cash purchases with no impact on gameplay = BAD but in-game cash purchases with an actual impact on gameplay = GOOD?

 

There's nothing more in-game than me seeing somebody with a cool-looking pet, I ask them where they got it, and they tell me they paid Blizzard $x or some card-game dealer $10x.  Collecting vanity crap is a huge part of the game for a lot of people, and that has a substantial impact on my gameplay inside the actual game world.

Blizzard creating some Facebook abortion and charging people a couple bucks to play with other retards who sign up to play via said Facebook abortion is not anything I need to see in the game.  I sure as fuck don't want to subsidize everyone else who uses it by having it come out of my monthly fees.  My hatred of RealID aside, it's something completely outside the game world, it seems like something that might be non-trivial to set up, and it's nothing that anyone reasonably expected to ever see in the game.  It's like a server transfer, or charging to let you play in some other country's servers, or the out-of-game auction house thing.

[Azuredream]

it's nothing that anyone reasonably expected to ever see in the game.

I don't think this is true. We could already do dungeons cross-server, the only functionality that is being added is being able to invite specific people to your cross-realm dungeon group. Granted I don't have the faintest idea whether it was easy/moderate/difficult to implement but it's not like no one ever wished they'd be able to play with their friends on different servers without rerolling.

[Ratman_tf]

So...in-game cash purchases with no impact on gameplay = BAD but in-game cash purchases with an actual impact on gameplay = GOOD?

 

People are split on what's bad and what's good about this. Easy solution is to not charge for it at all.  

[El Gallo]

MMO Champ lists a ton of raid nerfs incoming for patch 4.2. 

[Rendakor]

That 20% nerf might make Nef doable for my guild.

[Paelos]

MMO Champ lists a ton of raid nerfs incoming for patch 4.2. 

One step of many in the right direction. Let's see how they are willing to plan for content in the future now.

Oh, and they need to get rid of that rated bg shit.