Cataclysm

[Rendakor]

Honestly, I really like phasing. The annoyance of not being able to use the summoning stone outside of ICC is outweighed by the feeling that your actions have changed the world. Even though its not about player choice, it still shows the world moving forward. I want much more of that, not less.

[Malakili]

because it makes quests you do do something.

No, it doesn't.  It makes quests you do advance a predetermined plotline.  You are effectively saying that turning a page in a book influences what is on the next page.  Whats worse, is if you aren't on the same page as someone else, they no longer exist!  Questing is stupid, phasing just makes it more stupid.

Yeah, I'm probably in the minority, but whatever.

[Rendakor]

You're making a poor analogy. Pre-phasing, when you complete a quest, you sit there and watch 20 other guys do it immediately after you. With phasing, you complete the quests, the area changes. You push back the bad guys, build a new base, whatever. It's exactly like turning a page in a book: there is PROGRESS, change.

The next logical step would be branching quests, with multiple phased outcomes. Take Desolace, with the two warring centaur clans. Imagine if you completed the quests with one, the other was wiped out, and a more robust quest hub opened at whichever faction you chose. Keep it limited to solo stuff so there's no "WAHHHH I CANT PLAY WITH MY FRIENDS", and it'd actually be cool. This is the only way we'll ever see "changing" worlds in an MMO: the world changes differently for everyone. As long as they don't make it affect the endgame, it won't piss off anyone who isn't already bitter and jaded.

[Malakili]

the world changes differently for everyone.

I guess progress in MMO means progress towards single player games.  I've got lots of those already, no thanks.  Yeah, I'm THAT guy.

[Rendakor]

The leveling quest-grind has always been solo focused. That's one of WoW's biggest innovations to the genre. Honestly though, if you and a friend are somehow phased out of content for whatever level range, there's plenty of other options: you can go to another zone, /lfd, or do some BGs until you out-level it. Unless it affected the endgame somehow, there's no way it could be a deal breaker.

[Malakili]

The leveling quest-grind has always been solo focused. That's one of WoW's biggest innovations to the genre. Honestly though, if you and a friend are somehow phased out of content for whatever level range, there's plenty of other options: you can go to another zone, /lfd, or do some BGs until you out-level it. Unless it affected the endgame somehow, there's no way it could be a deal breaker.

I guess while you and others like the feel it gives the game, for me personally it just makes it feel very artificial.  Its like saying "We know this isn't actually changing anything for real, so we are going to patronize you by making the changes in graphics in addition to the text so you don't feel so bad about collecting 10 floozles."  If I've already chosen to play a game where I'm going to have to collect 10 floozles, I don't need that kind of patronizing, just let me get my floozles and move on and at least still be playing in the same game world as everyone else.

[Rendakor]

More artificial than the hundreds of other immersion-breaking elements in WoW? Off the cuff: language barrier, hardcoded factions, sanctuary cities, the endless retconning of the lore, etc.

[caladein]

What do you think isn't patronizing?  Grinding the same set of monsters for a certain amount of time until you move on to the next?  Progress Quest?

[Malakili]

What do you think isn't patronizing?  Grinding the same set of monsters for a certain amount of time until you move on to the next?  Progress Quest?

Diablo 2.  Basically WoW has moved further and further towards that model of game, except kept just enough MMO to justify charging monthly.   I've noticed it more and more every time I've gone back.

[Rendakor]

Different genre, WoW is not for you, etc.

[Malakili]

Different genre, WoW is not for you, etc.

Yes and No.  At their heart both are just loot collection games, and while the gameplay mechanics can differ slightly, the endless "ooh a new thing I found" as the main reason for playing are the same.  You can argue WoW isn't that, but I really think it has evolved to that point now.   

[caladein]

Yes, if "Ooh a new thing I found" is the main reason to play either game, then Diablo 2 is much more suited to that than WoW.

For me though, the loot treadmill has been mostly irrelevant (and occasionally a means-to-an-end) since late-Classic at the latest.

[Malakili]

Yes, if "Ooh a new thing I found" is the main reason to play either game, then Diablo 2 is much more suited to that than WoW.

For me though, the loot treadmill has been mostly irrelevant (and occasionally a means-to-an-end) since late-Classic at the latest.

More power to you if you manage to play the game for some other reason, but it doesn't seem to have many other saving graces as far as I'm concerned.  I guess the only reason I go back is because I made some friends in the game early on that I still like to play with from time to time, but I'd much prefer to play a different game with them to be honest, if we had one incommmon.

[Sjofn]

Rendakor is in my brain. 

[Ingmar]

This all just reads to me as "I'm tired of WoW." Cataclysm isn't going to change it magically into a different game.

[Rendakor]

Rendakor is in my brain. 

Sorry. >_>

[Malakili]

This all just reads to me as "I'm tired of WoW." Cataclysm isn't going to change it magically into a different game.

Thats a fair assessment.  I just think phasing in particular (which started this part of the discussion off) is a particularly bad mechanic from WotLK that could've been trashed for this.  

[Rasix]

Well, that's just like your opinion, man.

[Ingmar]

I think they recognize that outdoor leveling content is a solo experience for most of their customer base and that people in general want it to stay that way. When you approach how you want to design for that market phasing is a logical improvement.

I love it, personally. Obviously that sort of thing could interfere if it was a game where people were constantly grouping up in the outside world but that's not the kind of game WoW is. It can't be all things to all people, and it hasn't been trying to be all things to all people for a very long time.

[Lantyssa]

Also anyone who thinks worgen > goblin is fundamentally broken. The mere act of being a goblin means the goblin starter zone wins.  

While I'm going to love playing a goblin girl, the things I've heard about their starter zones are making me weary about getting far enough along to enjoy her.  Cars and motorcycles everywhere.

[Draegan]

You're making a poor analogy. Pre-phasing, when you complete a quest, you sit there and watch 20 other guys do it immediately after you. With phasing, you complete the quests, the area changes. You push back the bad guys, build a new base, whatever. It's exactly like turning a page in a book: there is PROGRESS, change.

The next logical step would be branching quests, with multiple phased outcomes. Take Desolace, with the two warring centaur clans. Imagine if you completed the quests with one, the other was wiped out, and a more robust quest hub opened at whichever faction you chose. Keep it limited to solo stuff so there's no "WAHHHH I CANT PLAY WITH MY FRIENDS", and it'd actually be cool. This is the only way we'll ever see "changing" worlds in an MMO: the world changes differently for everyone. As long as they don't make it affect the endgame, it won't piss off anyone who isn't already bitter and jaded.

Thats kinda what Guild Wars 2 wants to do.

Edit: Phasing is cool.  If you don't think phasing is cool then you're broken or you don't get it.

[Sjofn]

While I'm going to love playing a goblin girl, the things I've heard about their starter zones are making me weary about getting far enough along to enjoy her.  Cars and motorcycles everywhere.

That's part of what goblins are.

[caladein]

YouTube - [HQ] All Male Goblin Voice Overs (World of Warcraft Cataclysm)

YouTube - [HQ]All Female Goblin Voice Overs (World of Warcraft Cataclysm)

YouTube - [HQ]All Male Worgen Voice Overs (World of Warcraft Cataclysm)

YouTube - [HQ]All Female Worgen Voice Overs (World of Warcraft Cataclysm)

Clear Goblin supremacy.

[Rendakor]

You're making a poor analogy. Pre-phasing, when you complete a quest, you sit there and watch 20 other guys do it immediately after you. With phasing, you complete the quests, the area changes. You push back the bad guys, build a new base, whatever. It's exactly like turning a page in a book: there is PROGRESS, change.

The next logical step would be branching quests, with multiple phased outcomes. Take Desolace, with the two warring centaur clans. Imagine if you completed the quests with one, the other was wiped out, and a more robust quest hub opened at whichever faction you chose. Keep it limited to solo stuff so there's no "WAHHHH I CANT PLAY WITH MY FRIENDS", and it'd actually be cool. This is the only way we'll ever see "changing" worlds in an MMO: the world changes differently for everyone. As long as they don't make it affect the endgame, it won't piss off anyone who isn't already bitter and jaded.

Thats kinda what Guild Wars 2 wants to do.

Edit: Phasing is cool.  If you don't think phasing is cool then you're broken or you don't get it.

Yea GW2's stuff looks promising.

[Lakov_Sanite]

"Explosi-time!"

[Sjofn]

My only issue with the lady goblin voice is that her accent is all over the east coast. Oh well!

[Ironwood]

"The worgen area is great but it ends and then you need to level again"

Thank you Captain, your invaluable insight emboldens us all.

Also anyone who thinks worgen > goblin is fundamentally broken. The mere act of being a goblin means the goblin starter zone wins.  

Righto.  Came back to post my thoughts on the Goblin area but strongly tempted to not fucking bother now.  This above doesn't represent what I said at all.  Particularly the 'Worgen area is great'.  It ain't.  Yeah, there's fucking levelling, no shit and whatnot;  but there ain't anything BUT levelling.  You'd be as well starting again with another race.  Worgen/Goblin add precisely FUCK ALL to the mix.  That's my point.  There's not even any special racial tweaks.  Further, it's not that the Goblin area ain't serious;  I like a laugh as much as the next man.  I just prefer when the joke's are, you know, Funny.  I got a large dose of Thug Life in my WoW instead.  Utter excrement.

Actually, feel free to go away and get your own insights, I can't be arsed arguing with you.

I'm going to continue playing my Hunter;  the Focus change is really quite good and so are the Rogue ones.  Haven't fucked about with Lock Soul Shards yet (weren't working when I was playing) but it looks nice.  Cataclysm (the event) has utterly fucked the old world though.  That, at least, was really extremely cool in some areas.  The new instances were also really interesting though the placeholder loot was just MASSIVELY overpowered.


As to the phasing discussion that ensued :  I Like Phasing.  I think it's awesome.  But the wrinkle in Icecrown (whoops, you've lost your group and no-one in your guild can help you because they're not at the right stage) is massively apparent.  In a fucking STARTING ZONE.  They need to really, really THINK about that shit before putting it in or at least put in a sidekicking switch that you can regroup up.

[WindupAtheist]

I find the f13 goblin love utterly mystifying. I get exactly as much of the WoW goblin schtick as I care to deal with just playing the game as whatever. I don't really want the Joisey accent and blatant anachronisms rammed in my face every single time I play.

[Ingmar]

I guess what I don't get is why it even matters in a starting zone if you get out of sync with someone briefly. You're going to be in the zone for what, a day or two? The ICC phasing problem with the summoning stone seems like a much bigger problem in that it interferes in its small way with you every week.

[Nevermore]

I'm going to continue playing my Hunter;  the Focus change is really quite good

The changes to the shots don't force the Hunter to stand still more?  That's the way it looks on paper and one of the things I like about my Hunter currently is how I can still use shots it I need to move around a lot.  Has a very different feel from casters.

As to the phasing discussion that ensued :  I Like Phasing.  I think it's awesome.  But the wrinkle in Icecrown (whoops, you've lost your group and no-one in your guild can help you because they're not at the right stage) is massively apparent.  In a fucking STARTING ZONE.  They need to really, really THINK about that shit before putting it in or at least put in a sidekicking switch that you can regroup up.

The DK starting area has phasing and the same thing could happen.  Didn't seem like that big a deal to me.

[Sjofn]

I find the f13 goblin love utterly mystifying. I get exactly as much of the WoW goblin schtick as I care to deal with just playing the game as whatever. I don't really want the Joisey accent and blatant anachronisms rammed in my face every single time I play.

On my part, it's because I am from New Jersey and they crack my ass up. I've wanted to play one since I first met one. Easiest roleplaying evar! Why other people like them, I have no idea. 

[Ingmar]

I'm going to continue playing my Hunter;  the Focus change is really quite good

The changes to the shots don't force the Hunter to stand still more?  That's the way it looks on paper and one of the things I like about my Hunter currently is how I can still use shots it I need to move around a lot.  Has a very different feel from casters.

Hunters already have to stand still in PVE though, they can't mash steady shot otherwise, no?

[Nevermore]

My PvE spec is Survival and I don't really need to use Steady all that much.  Maybe somewhere around one out of three or four shots?  Due to the global cooldown, Serpent Sting not auto-refreshing and Lock & Load procs.  It's the reason I use Survival in PvE instead of Marks, where I had to use Steady a lot more.  Being immobile is what my Shaman is for. 

[Mattemeo]

Clear Goblin supremacy.

Mmm... don't know if it's that cut and dry. The Male Worgen was unexpectedly good - Human form sounds like the bastard love-child of Patrick Stewart and Neil Gaiman, and Worgen form is clearly Disney's Beast. That's pretty damn great.

However, the Female Worgen - Human voice at any rate, since the Worgen is non-existent so far - was pretty poor. They don't really sound like they're from the same place, for a start.

Both races have some pretty cringeworthy sayings, but that's true enough for every race. I still don't get why 'I like to fart in the tub!' even exists.

[Ironwood]

You're going to be in the zone for what, a day or two?

LOL.  Try and hour or tw...  an hour.  Max.