Cataclysm

[Typhon]

It's never going to happen, it fucks up the starting zones far too much.

...

that said, if you were going to do this, you could just have the horde kick the undead out, and every existing character chooses to either be/stay a part of the horde/alliance (as fits their race), or choose to be undead (because all these assets already exist - there is a death knight model for every race).  New characters get the same choice.  You still have a starting zone question, but it seems possible.

[Malakili]

It's never going to happen, it fucks up the starting zones far too much.

...

that said, if you were going to do this, you could just have the horde kick the undead out, and every existing character chooses to either be/stay a part of the horde/alliance (as fits their race), or choose to be undead (because all these assets already exist - there is a death knight model for every race).  New characters get the same choice.  You still have a starting zone question, but it seems possible.

Wouldn't this kind of hose the current undead who want to stay Horde?  I guess you'd have to award them a free race transfer.

[Paelos]

What would the point of the third faction be exactly? More useless pvp?

[Musashi]

Aside from a huge bullet point on the next expansion's list, yea.

But they could do a bunch of different things with PvP and three factions.  If they did it right, it might even make PvP much less useless.

[Nevermore]

The only reason to have a third faction would be to somewhat account for faction imbalance in world pvp.  Given all the headaches involved with creating a whole new faction (and even more if they split the current factions) and the fact that world pvp is little more than a footnote in WoW, I think Hell will be a frozen tundra long before you see a third faction in WoW.

[Paelos]

Not to mention the fact that there is no significant world pvp in WoW. It's entirely instanced. Sometimes it's even against people within your own faction.

Until it gets to the point where we are actively taking meaningful towns, pvp will always just be something to distract you between raids, or an "esport" for the hardcores.

[Simond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQqIPjT9ulM&feature=player_embedded

Female Worgen /flirts. Let's see how many of these survive to see Live.

Male goblin ones are 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMKLwqUxHJk

[WindupAtheist]

Sylvannas plaguing anything that moves (and some stuff that doesn't) seems entirely in character and a completely logical next step for her, provided you weren't heavily invested in fooling yourself that she barely had anything to do with its development and she would never ever REALLY kill everything on the planet even though that's been the Forsaken's Mission Statement from day one. Some of the other shit she's pulling is even more hilariously evil, and I look forward to people trying to rationalize the shit out of it.

Sure it may seem bad at first blush that even Garrosh fucking Hellscream, the new super hardcore face-eating Warchief of the Horde, openly compares Sylvanus to the Lich King. But you have to understand the Alliance... uh... that is to say the humans... umm... I got nothing. It's Varian's fault somehow for not being understanding enough.

 

[Rasix]

LORELOL

[Lakov_Sanite]

"Lets make sweet, sweet profit together"

Sold.

[WindupAtheist]

LORELOL

And I didn't even start it this time, it was my young Nerd Apprentice!



Muahahaha!

[Lakov_Sanite]

Lorewise...and nerd as a nerd argument but how much has alliance changed? It seems like the horde keep having things going on internally but afaik all alliance got was king chin back. Argue as much as you like about who's good/evil but it seems like blizzard doesn't really know where do go with the alliance lorewise beyond "lol good guys"

  I mean hell the last addition was lawful good space paladins, it doesn't get much more exciting than that.!

[Malakili]

Lorewise...and nerd as a nerd argument but how much has alliance changed? It seems like the horde keep having things going on internally but afaik all alliance got was king chin back. Argue as much as you like about who's good/evil but it seems like blizzard doesn't really know where do go with the alliance lorewise beyond "lol good guys"

  I mean hell the last addition was lawful good space paladins, it doesn't get much more exciting than that.!

Mostly because Blizzard knows that their lore matters only insofar as it leads to selling more subscriptions, and frankly, no one cares, or at least, no one cares enough to stop subscribing.

[Sjofn]

There's some stuff with the dwarf leadership going on, but honestly I've been half assedly avoiding reading too much about the Alliance because that's where I'm going to spend a lot of my Cataclysming days.

By the way, the goblin girl accent is all over the friggin' east coast. I can hear her trying for Jersey but ... it's not solid, let's say that. Although her accent is better than both worgens.  

[Musashi]

All I know is that in terms of story, all this bickering between factions can only lead to one of two things.  The first being a happy ending to Cataclysm where all these rifts in inter-faction politics are are mended.  The second being that they aren't mended.  And the only conclusion I can draw from that arc is that the factions split into three (or even four).  I'm just sitting here thinking about what advantage the first one gets them in terms of advancing the plot, and I can't think of s single thing.  They would essentially have to start over.  While with the other, the advantages from a story telling perspective are obvious.  War for years to come.  Yippee.  The titular cataclysm shakes deeper than just a Barrens face-lift.

If you would have asked any of us before Cataclysm if we thought they'd ever go back and re-do the old world, we all would have said, "Maybe they'll gloss over the parts that they need to do for flight, but that's it."  None of us could have predicted that they'd do the whole damn thing.  So it's pretty silly to sit here and say they won't do it because it's too much work.  They'll do it if they want to and it helps the game.

Also, I'm a little confused as to what problems a third faction would cause.  I never played DAoC, so I don't know about that other than what I've heard from others.  And as far as PVP goes, all the factions would have all the classes, so it's not going to be a balance problem - unless you count racials.  Yea there's no world PvP in WoW.  Yea it's pointless now.  I know.  But who's to say it's not a PvP focused expansion?  New battlegrounds that take advantage.  More complex Wintergrasp type zones.  This is all stuff they're going to be doing anyway.  Why is it that much harder for three factions?  As far as matchmaking, the only problem would be for the worldy Wintergrasp stuff, but that's as good as instanced now anyway.  It's not a huge deal to cap three faction populations for the zone instead of two.

Maybe it won't be for the next expansion.  Maybe they're building it up for WoW 2.  Who knows.  But I'm sticking with my prediction.  Three factions, or maybe even four ala Warcraft 3.

[Ingmar]

I think it is much too late in the game for a 3rd faction to be able to catch up population-wise, and they'd have to redo the entire block of leveling content *including* TBC and Wrath to do it.

There's just no way.

[Malakili]

Anyone see some of the hilarious stats on the crafted gear?  Not that mudflation is surprising, but it is kind of funny as always.  Especially when you consider that the crafted stuff is going to be extremely low end past the first raid cycle.

[Paelos]

Anyone see some of the hilarious stats on the crafted gear?  Not that mudflation is surprising, but it is kind of funny as always.  Especially when you consider that the crafted stuff is going to be extremely low end past the first raid cycle.

Yeah one of the crafted epic chestpieces for tanks had 340+ str 500+ stam with about 3500 armor. That's about 3x the strength and stam and 70% of the total armor on the combined T2 8-piece set...for one chestpiece that's not even a raiding item.

[LK]

Don't worry about Sylvanas, I'm sure she'll do something vindicating and show she has a good side after all right before she dies that makes up for it all (vader, lol) and the entire Forsaken creedo gets rewritten to people who are voluntarily resurrected because they're such warrior spirits or some such shit. Or maybe there's a cutoff point, they create a whole new model for Forsaken, something maybe based off Orcs, same abilities, same everything, something that makes anyone who's currently a Forsaken a legacy model. It wouldn't be that much work to create two new player character models with animations and faces compared to the landscaping job they did on the Old Kingdoms.

[Stabs]

I think it is much too late in the game for a 3rd faction to be able to catch up population-wise, and they'd have to redo the entire block of leveling content *including* TBC and Wrath to do it.

There's just no way.

A third faction would not need parity to be significant. That's the point of a three faction system. If you have 4000 Alliance and 4000 Horde then a 1000 strong third faction would be kingmaker. Rather like the LibDems in British politics.

If winning gave you stuff and battles were always won by either Alliance-3rd or Horde-3rd coalitions then being in the 3rd faction would give you stuff faster because you'd always win.

[Sjofn]

Except for when the Horde or Alliance smears your third faction across the battlefield before turning on each other, which often happens in three-sided PvP. But that is not an argument that needs to be made again.

I do think they have potential to have Sylvannas & her Forsaken leave/get kicked out, but the more strong-willed (that is, the PCs) be allowed to stay with the Horde because "Man seriously, she went off the fucking deep end, can we crash on your couch?"

[Ratman_tf]

The female Blood Elf salute is what turns this from morally questionable to awesome.

More generally, I wouldn't be surprised if this just worked out the same way as well... the last two expansions.  "Oh no, the Alliance and Horde are coming to blows.  Wait, over there, a new big bad!  Let's all work together, yaaaaaaaaaaaay."

It is getting old, isn't it? It's like Star Trek Voyager. Kinda comforting in a way.

[Ingmar]

I think it is much too late in the game for a 3rd faction to be able to catch up population-wise, and they'd have to redo the entire block of leveling content *including* TBC and Wrath to do it.

There's just no way.

A third faction would not need parity to be significant. That's the point of a three faction system. If you have 4000 Alliance and 4000 Horde then a 1000 strong third faction would be kingmaker. Rather like the LibDems in British politics.

If winning gave you stuff and battles were always won by either Alliance-3rd or Horde-3rd coalitions then being in the 3rd faction would give you stuff faster because you'd always win.

Yeah make this argument to a guy who WASN'T playing the low pop crappy 3rd realm for years on his DAOC server. Does. Not. Work. Like. That.

[Musashi]

Even the Wintergrasp stuff has population caps now.  And every other form of PvP aside from ganking noobs in STV is instanced.  So population doesn't mean anything in WoW, unless you're an auction house whore.  Unless they're going to start trying to make world PvP viable.  But I can't see them trying to do that again, since they couldn't even get it right with two factions, much less three.  They're going to stick with stuff like Wintergrasp, since they've gotten it to a point where it at least works, sorta.  And they can balance the games like they're currently doing with as many factions as you want.  Of course there will be servers where low pops struggle.  But it's like that now, anyway.

And as far as the leveling up content, I wouldn't imagine they'd change almost any of it.  They'd just give the new faction the same content as Horde.  The only thing they'd have to change is which zones belong to who and who's neutral where.  Oh and the quests where you have to go to major cities.  But most of those all have counterparts in all the cities anyway.  I'm sure there's a couple things like faction leader quests that they'd have to iron out, but it wouldn't be a huge revamp.  Plus with phasing, anything that needs to stay can just be retconned - like that quest where you have to go to Undercity and fight Varimathras.  That quest is already phased anyway.

I just don't see a whole lot of obstacles that don't have a pretty easy fix.

[Cadaverine]

I do think they have potential to have Sylvannas & her Forsaken leave/get kicked out, but the more strong-willed (that is, the PCs) be allowed to stay with the Horde because "Man seriously, she went off the fucking deep end, can we crash on your couch?"

This seems the mostly likely course to me.  PC Forsaken stay with the Horde under new management, and there's a week long event that culminates with Sylvannas getting kicked out of the Undercity.  At that point, they could kill her off, or make her a boss in a new dungeon, or whatever.

[WindupAtheist]

I think he's asking for the details of what happens in the expansion that makes sylvannus evil(er)

No, he seemed pretty clear on the gist of it. I think he's really trying to think of a way to spin his way out of his pet faction being pushed square into the cackling supervillain camp.

[Fordel]

Obvious Spoilers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8St2DUJk40


Shows some of the changes, and at the end... I don't know if I want to laugh or cry. 

[Simond]

I think he's asking for the details of what happens in the expansion that makes sylvannus evil(er)

No, he seemed pretty clear on the gist of it. I think he's really trying to think of a way to spin his way out of his pet faction being pushed square into the cackling supervillain camp.

Actually I'm waiting for context. All we have is "Sylvanas is using Val'Kyr to raise the dead as Forsaken". Dead what, though - Alliance humans, the remnants of the Scarlet Crusade, re-raising ex-Scourge or Thule Ravenclaw's pets as free-willed undead, Forsaken who fell in battle, the stitched-up remains of any Gilneans who were torn apart and gnawed on by the nice furries who just joined the Alliance?

...actually, that's a fun point. Yet Another Way the Worgen parallel the Forsaken: The only way either can 'reproduce' is by effectively destroying humans. Give it another expansion or two and everyone will be talking about how evil Genn Greymane is for using the Staff of Elune on the poor native population of wherever. 

The female Blood Elf salute is what turns this from morally questionable to awesome.

More generally, I wouldn't be surprised if this just worked out the same way as well... the last two expansions.  "Oh no, the Alliance and Horde are coming to blows.  Wait, over there, a new big bad!  Let's all work together, yaaaaaaaaaaaay."

Um, did you actually play WotLK? King Lump Beefbroth unilaterally declared war on the Horde and there was an airship battle above Icecrown Citadel between the Horde and the Alliance. The only "working together" was the Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade both frantically trying to steer both sides to killing Arthas before open warfare kicked off.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Obvious Spoilers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8St2DUJk40


Shows some of the changes, and at the end... I don't know if I want to laugh or cry.  

oh god, that's so  

.actually, that's a fun point. Yet Another Way the Worgen parallel the Forsaken: The only way either can 'reproduce' is by effectively destroying humans. Give it another expansion or two and everyone will be talking about how evil Genn Greymane is for using the Staff of Elune on the poor native population of wherever

Don't you know anything about furries? They'll yiff their way to a new population.

[Sjofn]

Actually I'm waiting for context. All we have is "Sylvanas is using Val'Kyr to raise the dead as Forsaken". Dead what, though - Alliance humans, the remnants of the Scarlet Crusade, re-raising ex-Scourge or Thule Ravenclaw's pets as free-willed undead, Forsaken who fell in battle, the stitched-up remains of any Gilneans who were torn apart and gnawed on by the nice furries who just joined the Alliance?

...actually, that's a fun point. Yet Another Way the Worgen parallel the Forsaken: The only way either can 'reproduce' is by effectively destroying humans. Give it another expansion or two and everyone will be talking about how evil Genn Greymane is for using the Staff of Elune on the poor native population of wherever. 

Unless Sylvannas has signed release forms from every single dead person she raises that say "Why yes, I WOULD like to become part of your Dark Undead Army," it's evil, dude. Sorry. The default state as far as consent goes is "no" until expressed otherwise.

Also, where is this crazy bullshit about worgens being unable to reproduce come from? They're still alive, they can still fuck, and I suspect there's nothing written down saying "PS: Worgen are suddenly sterile when they become worgen." They don't really need to worry about Gilneans dying out anyway ... they don't all have the worgen curse, although I will not be surprised if the non-worgen ones bite it when Sylvannas unleashes her Purely Peaceful Plague on them. Even so, if they mostly still consider themselves human, just with ehm ... new abilities, they're EXTRA not going to be worried about dying out the way the Forsaken do. Humans reproduce just fine.

But you know what, fine, let's pretend it's the same. If my worgen newbie quests talk about how I need to spread this shit around to every living thing on Azeroth, you know, just in case, I will freely admit the worgen are evil in the same way the Forsaken are.

[Stabs]

Worgen can definitely make puppies. I used to steal them from the Worgen village in Dragonblight to sell to evil Walrusmen slavers (or something, never actually read the quest).

[caladein]

The female Blood Elf salute is what turns this from morally questionable to awesome.

More generally, I wouldn't be surprised if this just worked out the same way as well... the last two expansions.  "Oh no, the Alliance and Horde are coming to blows.  Wait, over there, a new big bad!  Let's all work together, yaaaaaaaaaaaay."

Um, did you actually play WotLK? King Lump Beefbroth unilaterally declared war on the Horde and there was an airship battle above Icecrown Citadel between the Horde and the Alliance. The only "working together" was the Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade both frantically trying to steer both sides to killing Arthas before open warfare kicked off.

The Horde has the chance to kill not one, but two Bronzebeards but instead goes "Oh, let's kill the big bad instead."  Our quest NPCs may be very very cross with each other, but as players-not-in-a-battleground we always join the Argent Dawn, and the Shattered Sun Offensive, and the Ashen Verdict.

I mean, I as a Horde player am supposed to be cool with old human guy's plan of "Yes, let's give another one of my race's heroes a crack at being the Lich King.  What could possibly go wrong?"?  Of course, because he's a good guy, not like Prince Douchebag and Douchebag "I am the Road Warrior" Hellscream.

[Lantyssa]

Worgen can definitely make puppies. I used to steal them from the Worgen village in Dragonblight to sell to evil Walrusmen slavers (or something, never actually read the quest).

Er, those were Wolvar, not Worgen.

Though I'm sure the furries will be quite happy to have giant orgies which result in new little furries.  I've never seen anything saying Worgen can't breed.

[Simond]

Good news, everyone!
http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=25160
http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=25158
http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=25161

[Nevermore]

I mean, I as a Horde player am supposed to be cool with old human guy's plan of "Yes, let's give another one of my race's heroes a crack at being the Lich King.  What could possibly go wrong?"?  Of course, because he's a good guy, not like Prince Douchebag and Douchebag "I am the Road Warrior" Hellscream.

Don't you mean King Douchebag?  The same douchebag who let Saurfang Sr leave with the body of his son?

Good news, everyone!
http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=25160
http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=25158
http://cata.wowhead.com/quest=25161

I'm shocked!  What will they do next, add Professor Farnsworth in as a boss in Icecrown Citadel?