Cataclysm

[Merusk]

And speaking of arcane stuff, anyone notice the Highborne have blown back into town? They seem pretty insistant that there's Plenty Work Afoot.

Buh the buh?  I thought Highborn Night Elves took the boat across the sea and eventually just started calling themselves "High Elves...."?

Yeah, don't think on it too hard.  Apparently the live crew thought that NE Mages and Dwarf Shaman made much more sense than NE Shaman and Dwarf Mages.

[Sjofn]

Dwarf mage was on the little "new race/class combo" chart.

Anyway, apparently the story is that some of the highborne were hanging out in Dire Maul all this time (like the Prince guy) and are now feeling sassy enough to step out again.

[Simond]

Garrosh is hilariously Emo in TBC, which makes WotLK Garrosh even more 

Yeah, he went from being this sad little shitface who should be fucking grateful Thrall every came along to pull him out of his stupor into a fucking "HEY NICE PLANET YOU GOT HERE LET'S TAKE IT OVER COMPLETELY."

Garrosh's story got shortchanged because WotLK was an 'Alliance Expansion' (like TBC was a 'Horde Expansion' i.e. all the good lore & storylines were either that side or neutral).

What it should have been was him carrying on from the Nagrand event and basically doing a Grand Tour of Horde areas on Outland then Azeroth, and his reactions growing from that (namely "Wait, why the fuck are we making nice politically with the arseholes in the Alliance when we're living in fucking deserts and post-apocalyptic wastelands when they have pristine mountains and forests...and they're invading us?"). Combine that with the whole death before dishonour thing and the fact that he's quite happily embracing his heritage now instead of repressing it, and you'd have an interesting story. Especially when you consider that by definition Garrosh had fuck all to do with anything the Horde have done pre-TBC (his skin is the wrong colour, for starters), and quite a lot of the Horde is probably in a similar boat (grew up in the Internment camps for orcs, had fuck-all to do with the original Horde for everyone else; hell, two of the Horde races are ex-Alliance!) so they're not exactly defaulting to 'repentant noble savage' like Saurfang Sr. et. al. - in fact, they probably see the Alliance as holding grudges and spoiling for a fight.

Instead we got: Emo Garrosh *timeskip* "Why in the name of Gul'dan's fel-corrupted ballsack aren't we going to kick the crap out of Arthas now? The plague was an act of cowardice" *timeskip* Hello I am the "Big I Am" in Borean Tundra *timeskip* Rar Imma gon' eat Wrynn's face *timeskip* Sup I'm Warchief now.

And a shitty comic starring King Manbeef McRoidrager and his chillaxed magical twin.

[Fordel]

The Alliance is invading the Horde now? 

[WindupAtheist]

Simond plays some weird alternate-universe version of WoW. I've quit bothering to question it.

[Kail]

The Alliance is invading the Horde now? 

Yeah, they are.  There's a bunch of quests about it.  The Horde is also invading the Alliance, though, I believe.

I'm reminded of that one Terry Pratchett battle, Koom Valley, between Dwarves and Trolls, where both sides ambushed each other somehow.

[Sheepherder]

The Alliance is invading the Horde now?  

They're digging!

And no, in no conceivable universe except for Simond's would Garrosh ever be a decent character.  He's like King Beefcake, except he cuts himself when nobody's looking, is a mouthy twat when you see him in Northrend, and then goes on to propose the most ingenious plan since Operation Barbarossa: after which Saurfang tells him he's walking down a dangerous road and if he doesn't cut that shit out he's going to get an axe in his whore mouth.

Okay, so I embellished a little.

[Kageru]

Saurfang might die in ice-crown... but I don't think it's that likely. Arthas has always been a primarily human story and it is fitting that the sacrifice / revenge will involve a human who has lived to oppose him. Likewise Saurfang's not in the leadership race (forum fans aside) being more a military adviser. So whether he is alive or dead makes little difference to Garrosh seizing power.

I don't mind the WoW lore, it reads like a soap opera but it still comes up with a whole heap of "I'd like to see that".

[Shrike]

Okay, so I embellished a little.

Not really. I don't play horde-side, but I looked up the conversation between those two, and that's pretty much how it went down.

[DraconianOne]

The Alliance is invading the Horde now? 

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=784

Led by Admiral Proudmoore, the humans of Kul Tiras encroached on Durotar, violating the Warchief's pact made with Jaina Proudmoore in order to defeat Archimonde years ago.

The human aggression was repelled and Tiragarde Keep fell. But recently, the Admiral's reserves, led by Lieutenant Benedict, have retaken the keep and once again pose a threat to our homeland. These humans show no respect for diplomacy.

Prove your honor and travel south to Tiragarde Keep to eliminate the human invaders.

http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=831

Humans cannot be trusted. We fought alongside them with a weary heart, knowing they would betray us one day.

Admiral Proudmoore's death was not enough to stop his legacy of deceit. The human scum had his plans well laid out before he ever met his demise.

The second quest gives an indication of why Garrosh would keep the Trolls in Org - Vol'jin doesn't trust humans either.  So Taurens are all hemp-wearing, veggie treehuggers, the Forsaken betrayed the Horde and the Blood elves are, well, elves. You can't blame an orc really.

[Delmania]

Jaina's desire to not bother the Horde has always been unique.   The vast majority of the Alliance really doesn't trust the Horde and wants nothing more than to put them back in internment camps. 

As for Garrosh his character development, even by Blizzard's standards is crappy.  He went from being a depressed self-exile to a overly arrogant jackass with Thrall displaying his typical density.  The Blood Elves don't really need the Horde as they have attained high positions with the Naaru and Kirin Tor.  The Forsaken?  We're all already dead anyways and not going anywhere so we can handle ourselves.

[LK]

Once Kael'thas was cut out of the equation the Blood Elves became pretty decent and strive for excellence.

Yes, Garrosh Hellscream is a giant shoe-horn. Thrall I imagine is too tied up in prophecy giving him something to do. Without a clear direction for his people aside from survival and defending their borders, he's weak.

His title IS Warchief...

[Soulflame]

Man, I'm just glad the Naaru aren't pissed off about the whole "stealing power" thing.  That it was foretold by Velen really lifts a load off of my fabulous shoulders.

[LK]

Holy people / beings are very forgiving.

[Delmania]

Holy people / beings are very forgiving.

Especially when the act in question fits right in with their plans.

[LK]

The Naaru's? Or Blizzard's? 

[Simond]

The Alliance is invading the Horde now? 

There's Kul Tiras marines in fortresses all down the eastern coast of Kalimdor.
There's Ironforge dwarves in the Barrens and Mulgore.
There's night elves sabotaging the arcane sanctums and dicking with ley lines all over Eversong and the Ghostlands.
There's the Stormpike Expedition attempting to exterminate the Frostwolves.
And the only reason the Forsaken aren't hip-deep in Stormwind troops trying to 'reclaim' Lordaeron is because Stormwind is just funding and working with the Scarlet Crusade instead.

All, except the Crusade, are offical Alliance groups. In contrast:
Warsong Gulch & Arathi Basin - yes, these are about the only genuine Horde invasions...and the latter is debatable as it could be considered a civil war (i.e. the living remnants of the northern kingdom vs the undead remnants of the northern kingdoms).
And Ashenvale, of course. Although the elves struck first in that battle and the Horde is just finishing it.

That's about it, really.

[LK]

Regarding the Alliance: Up until recently Stormwind was being manipulated by Onyxia, with the return of the King having only really taken place during late Burning Crusade - Pre-Wrath's time line. So recent fuck-ups could be blamed on the Black Dragonflight undermining the Alliance / increasing tensions with the Horde in order to weaken both sides for an eventual bitch slap. Unfortunately, like Garrosh, we don't really see the long-term, individual developments that led to these situations.

When Varian returned, he added his special brand of prejudice / roidrage to negotations / tactics (Twice the Statesman, indeed. Fuck that was a terrible line.), so the Horde has a right to defend its territory. Unfortunately territorial borders tends to be who has what power where rather than anything mutually agreed upon, and humanity does have somewhat of a claim to areas occupied by Forsaken soldiers.

Kul Tiras could be considered a separatist faction.

The Alliance getting involved in Quel'thalas affairs after their separation seems really, really stupid. But you know, Blizzard isn't Bioware. Nothing subtle / sensible with it's I.P. Just epic, in your face, who cares how we got here.

[Ingmar]

And Ashenvale, of course. Although the elves struck first in that battle and the Horde is just finishing it.

...what?

A bunch of ugly monsters invade their homeland and start chopping down all their sacred trees. But the elves started it?  

[Lakov_Sanite]

Night elf males have no place calling anyone an ugly monster...just sayin

[WindupAtheist]

Remnants of Proudmoore's forces count even though the last incursion was destroyed with the help of his daughter, you know, the current highest-ranking Alliance leader on the continent. The Scarlet Crusade somehow counts as Alliance even though the Alliance has quests to, among other things, kill all the leaders of the Scarlet Crusade. Ashenvale is a totally defensive invasion since someone dared to attack the Horde just because they rolled into their country and started taking things.

The Forsaken count as Lordaeron. Until it's time to make reference to Garithos or internment camps, at which point that will temporarily change (Yet again!) and anything questionable that was ever done by Lordaeron will somehow be pinned on Stormwind. And since the Forsaken are supposed to be the continuation of Lordaeron for the moment, the whole Arathi thing is really just a pre-existing civil war and peripheral to Horde/Alliance affairs. On the other hand, any shenanigans between the night elves and the high/blood elves are totally different, because those two groups are totally unrelated and have always gotten along great before now.

Oh and the dwarves are still DIGGING, with local oversight only sometimes.

Could you at least have picked a few less examples of people the Alliance has killed in the past? I mean Daelin Proudmoore's left-over guys? The freakin' Scarlet Crusade? Are you kidding me? And seriously Simond, how does your brain process that whole "The Forsaken are Lordaeron, unless Lordaeron did something bad in this thread!" thing without your skull rupturing?

[LK]

From what I can tell, the actions of segments of a force count for the whole since the whole don't reprimand / isolate the segments. See: Forsaken at Wrath Gate.

The leaders don't really have a good grasp on all their lieutenants.

[DraconianOne]

Oh and the dwarves are still DIGGING, with local oversight only sometimes.

The dwarves are still breathing - that's a good enough reason to slaughter as many of the stumpy little shits as possible.  Anyone in their right minds would chop down the trees in Ashenvale just because it pisses off those pointy-eared, motherfucking treehuggers. The Tauren might be druidic hippies too and they might have real issues with the Venture Co. chopping down the trees in Stonetalon but are they going to ask the orcs to stop in Ashenvale? Are they bollocks. Why? Because chopping down those trees pisses off the fucking night elves so it's got to be a good thing.

[WindupAtheist]

From what I can tell, the actions of segments of a force count for the whole since the whole don't reprimand / isolate the segments. See: Forsaken at Wrath Gate.

The Scarlet Crusade was formed from the remnants of Lordaeron and repeatedly comes under attack from the Alliance. The marines in the Barrens are remnants of a force that was only crushed with the help of an Alliance leader. But hey, that's totally the same as the Wrathgate. Everyone should have just accepted that whole "No, we didn't mean to kill you YET!" excuse from the Forsaken and patted each other on the back.

Except, whoops, even Thrall wouldn't buy the shit being shovled in this thread right now.

Is Theramore, the legitimate Alliance base in the region, under attack on account of those naughty marines? Why no, guys deserting because they're NOT allowed to fight the Horde is a major plot point there. Clearly SOMEONE sees the difference.

On the other hand, the Forsaken with their totally legit excuse for accidentally killing everyone are about to get a big orcish boot up their ass next patch, meaning even the rest of the Horde doesn't buy that shit.

[Shrike]

stupid shit

There's a guy like this at work. He's also very good at patting himself on the back for just happening to roll horde. We usually ignore him, like we would Jehovah's Witness' or some such other nuisance.

Making this stuff up as you go along is weak. Give it a break. Blizzard has always introduced shades of grey into all it's lore. That's not new and is actually a welcome change from most fantasy boilerplate. This stuff, though, is just clownshoes. 

[Fordel]

And Ashenvale, of course. Although the elves struck first in that battle and the Horde is just finishing it.

...what?

A bunch of ugly monsters invade their homeland and start chopping down all their sacred trees. But the elves started it?  

"The big talking ones drop more lumber, kill those first!"

[Simond]

stupid shit

There's a guy like this at work. He's also very good at patting himself on the back for just happening to roll horde. We usually ignore him, like we would Jehovah's Witness' or some such other nuisance.

Making this stuff up as you go along is weak. Give it a break. Blizzard has always introduced shades of grey into all it's lore. That's not new and is actually a welcome change from most fantasy boilerplate. This stuff, though, is just clownshoes. 

Oh dear, you're taking this all very seriously.

[Teleku]

So I haven't played wow in a long time, but am interested in seeing what the new expansion brings, so I click on this thread.


For fuck sake people.

[Ingmar]

Well if that's what you want, I hear it features more twitch gameplay.

[Rasix]

So I haven't played wow in a long time, but am interested in seeing what the new expansion brings, so I click on this thread.


For fuck sake people.

Yah, that's why I tried to keep it contained to just this thread.  WoW lore(lol) battles are pretty goddamn silly except to the people actually taking this tripe seriously.

WUA is a fanfic pk.  But don't worry, everywhere else is mostly Trammelized.

[Kail]

Ashenvale is a totally defensive invasion since someone dared to attack the Horde just because they rolled into their country and started taking things.
[snip]
Oh and the dwarves are still DIGGING, with local oversight only sometimes.

Seems a bit odd to me to claim that the Horde deserves DEATH for rolling into Night Elf land and chopping some trees, while simultaneously asserting that the Horde are violent maniacs for killing Dwarves who are "just digging."

[WindupAtheist]

A small group of people conducting archaeology without a permit before belatedly submitting to local oversight is exactly like an army marching into a country and building infrastructure for the mass-extraction of natural resources while killing everyone who tries to stop them. Exactly.

Those retards who sneak into Turkey to climb into the mountains and look for Noah's Ark every couple years are the exact same thing as the US Army rolling in and blowing the shit out them to cart away some natural gas tankers.

[Shrike]

It's one thing to debate Warcraft lore and where it might be going, but another to indulge in complete revisionism. We saw most of this stuff in WC3 and trying to "spin" it is just being obtuse. If Blizz retcons something, that's one thing. Weirdo fan revisions, however, are another thing again.

I can ignore most of this, but geez, come on. We're in tinfoil hat territory with some of this stuff.

[Kail]

A small group of people conducting archaeology without a permit before belatedly submitting to local oversight is exactly like an army marching into a country and building infrastructure for the mass-extraction of natural resources while killing everyone who tries to stop them. Exactly.

Those retards who sneak into Turkey to climb into the mountains and look for Noah's Ark every couple years are the exact same thing as the US Army rolling in and blowing the shit out them to cart away some natural gas tankers.

Ah.  So, hypothetically, if the US did send their army into, say, another country for their resources, everyone else would be morally justified in murdering any Americans they came across?  Whereas, in contrast, if some armed group of individuals not in a nation's military came over to the US and (hypothetically) started blowing up their stuff, that's fine because it's not the actual army?  Hmmm.  (AHAHA your retardedly overextended metaphors are NO MATCH FOR MY OWN!)

Seriously, though, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.  Are the Alliance pure, noble beings who never do any wrong?   No, of course not, but neither are the Horde.  Are they personified, baby-devouring evil?  Not there, either.  Both factions are morally fairly gray... but not gray from a "It's all dependent on your point of view" kind of thing, gray in a "this makes no fucking sense" way.  Why ARE the dwarves digging in Bael Modan and shooting anyone who asks them to please stop?  It's never explained, because it's two paragraphs of text for a quest that was supposed to give players a break from killing lions and ostriches for the last week by letting them shoot at some humanoids for once.  Arguing about moral superiority in a situation like this is like arguing about whether or not Neo could kill Goku; either side can fill in the massive, massive blanks with whatever they want to and claim victory.

[WindupAtheist]

Seriously, though, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.  Are the Alliance pure, noble beings who never do any wrong?   No, of course not, but neither are the Horde.  Are they personified, baby-devouring evil?  Not there, either.

Neither faction is either pure good or pure evil. However, only one has launched a large, unequivocal, no splinter faction, no nonsense invasion of a member of the other... while claiming to be interested in peace. Only one harbors a member nation that has developed biological weapons for the intended purpose of killing everyone in the world. Only one seems to have fanboys who think "Well look what dicks your archaeologists are!" is a valid rebuttal to "Killing everyone in the world is bad!"

Don't blame me, I didn't write it.