Cataclysm

[WindupAtheist]

That said, humans are dicks with King Fight McStab at the front of the line.  His journey mirrors Thrall's, but he ended up at the complete opposite conclusion.

Yeah, but a dick for what? Not being cool with the guys you just described half of as being evil or insane? For all his drama with the orcs, what got Wrynn to throw up his hands were the Forsaken, the RAS, and getting a close look at the general depravity of Undercity. Prior to that he'd been at least grudgingly open to diplomacy, even with his former slave master standing at Thrall's side.

However, based on the lore, the purpose of the New Plague was to wipe out the Scourge and the humans (read Scarlet Crusade).

Do I really have to go mine the last couple of threads for text from all the years-old "been there all along" quests where RAS members tell any newbie who needs some silver how they want to bring death to the world? Do I really need to paste the novel quote into this thread in order to point out how much "But when I say I want to wipe out the humans, really I only mean the Scarlet Crusade!" isn't in there?

Then when you watch do the Battle for the Undercity, Sylvanas seems to not be evil in the slightest - calling Thrall warchief and what not.

This is the single stupidest sentence I have ever read in one of these loredork arguments, and that's saying a lot. Please explain for me what conceivable way in which her being civil to a badly-needed ally during a five-minute conversation has any bearing on any fucking thing whatsoever. "HEY GUYS I SAW SYLVANAS THIS ONE TIME AND SHE DIDN'T HAVE 'EVIL' WRITTEN ON HER FOREHEAD OR A DEAD BABY IN HER JAWS OR NOTHING! DOESN'T SEEM EVIL IN THE SLIGHTEST!"

QQ

Eat a dick, you crabby cunt.

[Soulflame]

Yeah, the Forsaken are evil.  There's any question about this?  It's an alliance of convenience while they figure out how to kill everything that's alive, and a few things that aren't.

Orcs?  Not particularly evil in their current form.  Yeah, they did some stupid shit a while back, and fell under the influence of the Burning Legion.  As the instance BM points out, it was necessary for the orcs to come through the dark portal in order to achieve uniting the human kingdoms.  You know, the human kingdoms that were essentially tied up fighting each other to death.

Tauren?  Lifedebt to Thrall.  Not even remotely evil in any way.

Blood Elves?  Crazy fucking fascists with an addiction to magical energy that must be fed or they lose control of their hunger.

Trolls?  I'm not sure what the deal is with the trolls.  I'm not entirely sure I trust them.

But don't try to feed me any bullshit about how the alliance is pure.  You've got the racial supremist NE druid who wants to oust Tyrande, plus decided to create another world tree, against the advice of the arch druid, the human general who ordered the blood elves to essentially exterminate themselves, and crazy ass dwarves frantically digging up god knows what in order to find out that, once again, dwarves were originally earthen that were inflicted with the curse of flesh.  Not to mention the soon-to-be concluded alliance with humans inflicted with a curse brought through a portal to god-knows-where by some crazy ass druid who decided to bring in aliens to fight something or another.

Yeah, the alliance is good and pure.   Riiiiiight.

[AutomaticZen]

Yeah, but a dick for what? Not being cool with the guys you just described half of as being evil or insane? For all his drama with the orcs, what got Wrynn to throw up his hands were the Forsaken, the RAS, and getting a close look at the general depravity of Undercity. Prior to that he'd been at least grudgingly open to diplomacy, even with his former slave master standing at Thrall's side.

Point taken.  My perception is a bit off, as shown in the Ulduar cinematic with Thrall just standing by and watching shit devolve as Garrosh and Wrynn measure penis-size.  Which carries over to much of ToC.

Do I really have to go mine the last couple of threads for text from all the years-old "been there all along" quests where RAS members tell any newbie who needs some silver how they want to bring death to the world? Do I really need to paste the novel quote into this thread in order to point out how much "But when I say I want to wipe out the humans, really I only mean the Scarlet Crusade!" isn't in there?

Sylvanas has mellowed a bit, but she still wants everyone dead.  Her text in Battle for Undercity is the worst copout ever.  'Uh.  Wasn't me!'

Of course, the only thing that Garrosh seems to be doing right is installing Orc guards at the Undercity to watch those crazy bastards.

[Sheepherder]

Trolls in WoW are the Darkspear tribe seen in War III.  Same boat as the Tauren.

You argument against dwarves is pretty retarded.  But... they're digging! [pause for shocked silence]

[AutomaticZen]

Trolls in WoW are the Darkspear tribe seen in War III.  Same boat as the Tauren.

You argument against dwarves is pretty retarded.  But... they're digging! [pause for shocked silence]

Yeah.  Like I said, the worse you can throw at their feet is they're drunk.

The Draenei, those are the real insidious fuckers.

[WindupAtheist]

Plus there was a general in WC3 who was a dick. Of course he was a general of Lordaeron, and the issue of whether the legacy of Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken or to the humans of Stormwind seems to change by the moment. Okay, Garithos was one of ours. Our bad. Now get off our land. Either that or the Forsaken (as is frequently argued) essentially ARE Lordaeron, in which case they can STFU about what a jerk one of their own was.

[Delmania]

This is the single stupidest sentence I have ever read in one of these loredork arguments, and that's saying a lot. Please explain for me what conceivable way in which her being civil to a badly-needed ally during a five-minute conversation has any bearing on any fucking thing whatsoever. "HEY GUYS I SAW SYLVANAS THIS ONE TIME AND SHE DIDN'T HAVE 'EVIL' WRITTEN ON HER FOREHEAD OR A DEAD BABY IN HER JAWS OR NOTHING! DOESN'T SEEM EVIL IN THE SLIGHTEST!"

You've seen the event?  It's not like the emotions expressed in those words had some spite behind them.  If you bother to watch what she does, it would indicate she has some real loyalty to Thrall, which may have softened up her stance on the whole "Death to the lviing." 

Plus there was a general in WC3 who was a dick. Of course he was a general of Lordaeron, and the issue of whether the legacy of Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken or to the humans of Stormwind seems to change by the moment. Okay, Garithos was one of ours. Our bad. Now get off our land. Either that or the Forsaken (as is frequently argued) essentially ARE Lordaeron, in which case they can STFU about what a jerk one of their own was.

What? There's an issue over who owns Lodaeron?  Last I checked, The Forsaken took it over.  You want it back?  Come take it, bitch.  As for the claim that Forsaken = Lodaeron, that's a load of crap. 

[Soulflame]

Trolls in WoW are the Darkspear tribe seen in War III.  Same boat as the Tauren.

You argument against dwarves is pretty retarded.  But... they're digging! [pause for shocked silence]

They're digging on Tauren lands without permission.  They're digging on Orc lands without permission.  They are also rooting around in Titan ruins and cities, which isn't exactly the smartest thing to do, since no one knows what could result from that.

[Soulflame]

IIRC, Lordaeron was abandoned by humans after Arthas pretty much decimated his homeland.  The Forsaken, again, IIRC, were the undead that were occupying it, and they stayed after Sylvanas managed to break free of the control of the Lich King.

Plus we could get into a loreslapfight over Arthas and Kel'Thuzad as well.  Two humans lured to serve the Lich King.

[Ingmar]

What? There's an issue over who owns Lodaeron?  Last I checked, The Forsaken took it over.  You want it back?  Come take it, bitch.  As for the claim that Forsaken = Lodaeron, that's a load of crap.  

Well.. no actually. There were a whole bunch of human countries - Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, Alterac, Stromgarde, Dalaran. Garithos was from Lordaeron; Stormwind is an entirely different kingdom. The Lordaeron humans are pretty much mostly Forsaken (or Scourge) now. Very few of them got away - one of the missions you do in the Frozen Throne expansion to Warcraft 3 is essentially ensuring this.  The Forsaken didn't come from somewhere *else* to take over, other than the chunk of them from Quel'thalas.

It gets blurry in the lore now that most of them are ruined but Garithos had basically nothing to do with the Stormwind humans, who are the humans involved in the events of the FIRST Warcraft game, not Warcraft 2 or Warcraft 3.

[Lantyssa]

You've seen the event?  It's not like the emotions expressed in those words had some spite behind them.  If you bother to watch what she does, it would indicate she has some real loyalty to Thrall, which may have softened up her stance on the whole "Death to the lviing." 

Even if she digs Thrall it's all going to fall apart when Jaina comes around once too often.

[Tannhauser]

Oooo catfight!

[Merusk]

This is the single stupidest sentence I have ever read in one of these loredork arguments, and that's saying a lot. Please explain for me what conceivable way in which her being civil to a badly-needed ally during a five-minute conversation has any bearing on any fucking thing whatsoever. "HEY GUYS I SAW SYLVANAS THIS ONE TIME AND SHE DIDN'T HAVE 'EVIL' WRITTEN ON HER FOREHEAD OR A DEAD BABY IN HER JAWS OR NOTHING! DOESN'T SEEM EVIL IN THE SLIGHTEST!"

You've seen the event?  It's not like the emotions expressed in those words had some spite behind them.  If you bother to watch what she does, it would indicate she has some real loyalty to Thrall, which may have softened up her stance on the whole "Death to the lviing." 

Or... wait for it..  she's a deceptive, manipulative evil bitch who's not in the slightest above throwing the blame on anyone but herself so she can maintain power and keep her unlife.  If the Horde AND the Alliance turn on her Forsaken as a common enemy she's proper fucked.  Recall that both sides thought what the RAS did at the Wrathgate was enough to pull forces out of Northrend long enough to throw-down in Undercity.

[Sjofn]

You've got the racial supremist NE druid who wants to oust Tyrande, plus decided to create another world tree, against the advice of the arch druid ...

To be fair to Staghelm, who is DEFINITELY someone I like against all reason, Tyrande is a blithering idiot herself. Really, night elves are amazingly stupid in general.

[Merusk]

Hay guize! I bet my brother the half-demon can help!

[WindupAtheist]

You've seen the event?  It's not like the emotions expressed in those words had some spite behind them.  If you bother to watch what she does, it would indicate she has some real loyalty to Thrall, which may have softened up her stance on the whole "Death to the lviing."

It might indicate that if you're a mushy-headed fanboy who NOT ONLY believes whatever Sylvanas says (while simultaneously ignoring everything from five-year old quest text to a Blizzard novel that just came out a couple months ago which all paint her as a genocidal bitch) BUT ALSO places a ridiculous and childlike importance on appearance and mannerisms. To anyone else, not so much.

Gee, on one hand we have Blizzard using authorial ominscience to narrate her thoughts while she reflects upon how great it'll be to wipe out both the Scourge AND the humans. On the other hand we saw her in Undercity and she didn't... like... cackle at Thrall or scream "HEY I'M EVIL!" Gee, what a conundrum. I guess it's a total toss-up.

Plus we could get into a loreslapfight over Arthas and Kel'Thuzad as well.  Two humans lured to serve the Lich King.

Of course the Legion never needed to do anything as elaborate as creating the Lich King in order to bring down the orcs. All they had to do there was slap down a big keg of demon blood and go "Hey wanna be evil, bro?" and nearly the entire species chugged it down and started paving their roads with skulls.

[Merusk]

In the orc's defense, they're all pretty stupid.  Monkey see, monkey do, so they just had to corrupt the Warchief and everyone else followed suit.   To corrupt the Warchief all they had to do was make the standard "MORE POWER" offer.

[Simond]

Trolls in WoW are the Darkspear tribe seen in War III.  Same boat as the Tauren.

You argument against dwarves is pretty retarded.  But... they're digging! [pause for shocked silence]

...up sacred burial grounds and shooting anyone who comes to complain.

Of course the Legion never needed to do anything as elaborate as creating the Lich King in order to bring down the orcs. All they had to do there was slap down a big keg of demon blood and go "Hey wanna be evil, bro?" and nearly the entire species chugged it down and started paving their roads with skulls.

Actually, they pretty much tricked Ner'zhul into the whole "Genocide the draenei" thing and then when he went "Wait, what the fuck is going on? Why are the ancestors so pissed off at me?" and started figuring out that he'd been manipulated, the Legion more or less went "Okay, Gul'dan - you're running the show now. Go nuts. Literally. Incidentally, drinking our blood gives you more power. You know, just as a fyi".

To be fair to Staghelm, who is DEFINITELY someone I like against all reason, Tyrande is a blithering idiot herself. Really, night elves are amazingly stupid in general.

Pretty much everything that's gone majorly wrong on Azeroth since the Titans left can be blamed on either a) Old Gods or b) Night elves. I say we kill the lot. 

[Sheepherder]

You argument against dwarves is pretty retarded.  But... they're digging! [pause for shocked silence]

...up sacred burial grounds and shooting anyone who comes to complain.

Problem solved.

But... digging!

[WindupAtheist]

Pretty much everything that's gone majorly wrong on Azeroth since the Titans left can be blamed on either a) Old Gods or b) Night elves. I say we kill the lot.

I hate elves, but really the night elves are no higher than #3 on the "disastrous consequences reaped from trying to make deals with the Legion" list. I mean at least Azeroth didn't explode into floating smithereens, and even Outland is probably a nicer place to hang out than Argus is now.

[Soulflame]

You want a good example of how the digging goes bad?

Algalon.  Sent to Azeroth to determine whether to re-originate the planet or not.  Why?  Because Brann can't keep his nose out of where it doesn't belong, managed to point adventurers in the direction of Loken, who's death then triggered Algalon being sent.

Yeah.  It's "just" digging.  That nearly led to the planet being completely destroyed by the Titans.  Nothing wrong with that, right lads?

[Soulflame]

Pretty much everything that's gone majorly wrong on Azeroth since the Titans left can be blamed on either a) Old Gods or b) Night elves. I say we kill the lot.

I hate elves, but really the night elves are no higher than #3 on the "disastrous consequences reaped from trying to make deals with the Legion" list. I mean at least Azeroth didn't explode into floating smithereens, and even Outland is probably a nicer place to hang out than Argus is now.

Azshara.  Her actions resulted in a direct invasion of Azeroth by the Burning Legion, not to mention the destruction of the Well of Eternity, which then destroyed most of a continent.  Not to mention the soon-to-be coming Cataclysm that she will have a direct hand in.

[WindupAtheist]

Draenor, that was literally blow into fragments after planet-wide genocide and corruption.

Argus, that the draenei had to up and flee from completely because most of their race outright decided to become demons.

Like I said, night elves come in no higher than #3. Azeroth is at least still sphere-shaped and inhabitable.

[AutomaticZen]

And like I said, if Velen picks any other planet than the orc homeworld to land?  The whole shebang never happens.  They only found it because the Eredar were chasing the Draenei.

[LK]

Night Elves aren't really as high up either because only a small percentage of their race invited disaster (The Highborne) as opposed to a significant majority of the Orcs and Draenei taking up the Legion cause.

[Sheepherder]

Yeah.  It's "just" digging.  That nearly led to the planet being completely destroyed by the Titans.  Nothing wrong with that, right lads?

Good example, I'm certain Loken as the chosen champion of Yogg-Saron wouldn't have gotten up to anything if he had just been left alone.

[Soulflame]

He hadn't done much in recent history, and he was clearly in thrall to YS eons ago, as he murdered Thorim's wife, and tricked Thorim into thinking it was the Sons of Hodir (apparently) a long long time ago.  He's been sitting on that throne ever since, waiting for who knows what.  Until we show up, then he uses us to lure Thorim out for a confrontation, captures Thorim, and drags him into Ulduar to guard against those pesky mortals that won't leave well enough alone.  So of course we go running into HoL and peekay his crazy Old God corrupted self.

Then Brann goes rummaging around in Ulduar until he triggers god knows what, and we have to go in there and sort it out.  Thanks Brann.  You twit.

[Sjofn]

Yeah.  It's "just" digging.  That nearly led to the planet being completely destroyed by the Titans.  Nothing wrong with that, right lads?

Good example, I'm certain Loken as the chosen champion of Yogg-Saron wouldn't have gotten up to anything if he had just been left alone.

And man, Ulduar was completely impossible to find without any digging!

[LK]

And like I said, if Velen picks any other planet than the orc homeworld to land?  The whole shebang never happens.  They only found it because the Eredar were chasing the Draenei.

At this point you're arguing against plot developments that were necessary to bring us to the current state. Unfortunately I do not see a "What If?" a la Marvel for Warcraft, like "What If? The Draenei Never Landed on Draenor! Medivh Never Opened The Dark Portal! Tyrande Never Freed Illidan!"

Oh, wait. The answer to all of those is the Legion successfully invades Azeroth and there's no extremely popular I.P. to rake in the dough for Blizzard.

Hmmm. Alternative Realities is unexplored fodder though.

[Koyasha]

Pretty much everything that's gone majorly wrong on Azeroth since the Titans left can be blamed on either a) Old Gods or b) Night elves. I say we kill the lot.

I hate elves, but really the night elves are no higher than #3 on the "disastrous consequences reaped from trying to make deals with the Legion" list. I mean at least Azeroth didn't explode into floating smithereens, and even Outland is probably a nicer place to hang out than Argus is now.

Azshara.  Her actions resulted in a direct invasion of Azeroth by the Burning Legion, not to mention the destruction of the Well of Eternity, which then destroyed most of a continent.  Not to mention the soon-to-be coming Cataclysm that she will have a direct hand in.

It should be noted that as far as the War of the Ancients trilogy seems to show us, she was relatively blameless.  She had her people researching magic and portals and such, yes, but as far as is indicated, at the time there had been no indication that any of this was in any way bad or even dangerous beyond the expected 'if we screw something up this might blow up or something' sort of danger.  Their society was full of magic, they used it often, and to no ill effects.  Then Xavius calls her in, goes 'oh hey look at this' and she looks into the portal he created and falls squarely under the gaze of Sargeras, who basically proceeds to mind-fuck her, at which point pretty much everything else can't really be blamed on her.  And the rest of the indications are somewhat conflicting as to whether she was a good queen before that, but to be beloved to such a degree by what seems like 99% of her people, I would imagine she couldn't have been bad.

[Merusk]

"Her People" were the Highborne.  She saw herself and the elites as separate from the rest of the Night Elves, so yeah, she was pretty much a bitch.

[Sheepherder]

He's been sitting on that throne ever since, waiting for who knows what.  Until we show up, then he uses us to lure Thorim out for a confrontation, captures Thorim, and drags him into Ulduar to guard against those pesky mortals that won't leave well enough alone.

So should I be submitting a bug report to Blizzard that the dwarf-only Thorim quest is broken?  Because it seems other races than dwarves are rooting around Ulduar.  Really, you have to hand it to Brann though, he isn't throwing a shitfit that people are rooting around in the ruins created by his ancestors.

[Kail]

Then Xavius calls her in, goes 'oh hey look at this' and she looks into the portal he created and falls squarely under the gaze of Sargeras, who basically proceeds to mind-fuck her [Azshara], at which point pretty much everything else can't really be blamed on her.

Buh?  First of all, the novels show less awareness of the Warcraft continuity than half the people in this thread.

Second of all, it's been a while since I've been able to read those books, but that's not how I remember it.  She was pretty clearly "YES, I WILL MARRY SARGERAS AND BE TEH DARK QUEEN" as soon as he showed up.  If he was doing some kind of woogy-woogy brain melting on her, then she'd have more power to resist it than almost anyone else in the history of the planet, so then you also have to give a pass to the Dranei and the Orcs and Kel'Thuzad and Kael'Thas and damn near everyone else in the Rogue's Gallery.

Azshara.  [Snip]  Not to mention the soon-to-be coming Cataclysm that she will have a direct hand in.

As an aside, do we know this?  I haven't seen anything from Blizzard that even mentions Azshara in the expansion, aside from the fact that the Sundering is sometimes also called the Cataclysm.  It looked to me like Deathwing was going to be the Big Bad of this expansion.

[Koyasha]

"Her People" were the Highborne.  She saw herself and the elites as separate from the rest of the Night Elves, so yeah, she was pretty much a bitch.

Pretty much everybody (with like one or two exceptions, not counting the people from the future who already know the story) in the War of the Ancients thinks of her as perfect and wonderful and all.  Even when they know the Highborne are working with the demon army and everything, their assumption right up until the end is that those nasty Highborne and demons must have their beloved queen captured.  Maybe it was just good PR, but I'd say you don't get that beloved without doing something right.

Buh?  First of all, the novels show less awareness of the Warcraft continuity than half the people in this thread.

Second of all, it's been a while since I've been able to read those books, but that's not how I remember it.  She was pretty clearly "YES, I WILL MARRY SARGERAS AND BE TEH DARK QUEEN" as soon as he showed up.  If he was doing some kind of woogy-woogy brain melting on her, then she'd have more power to resist it than almost anyone else in the history of the planet, so then you also have to give a pass to the Dranei and the Orcs and Kel'Thuzad and Kael'Thas and damn near everyone else in the Rogue's Gallery.

As far as I'm aware, the novels have been declared Canon by Blizzard etc, so whatever we might think of them or not, it's part of the story.

And while it's not directly stated in her case, combined with Xavius's first encounter with Sargeras it's pretty well implied that she's highly suspicious until she looks into the portal and bam, power of a Titan in her face.

He tried to pull back, but it was already too late.  Deep, so very deep within the captured energies of the Well, the mind of the counselor was suddenly dragged beyond the edge of reality, beyond eternity . . . until . . .
I have searched long for you . . . came the voice.  It was life, death, creation, destruction . . . and power infinite.
Had he even desired to do so, Xavius would have been unable to wrench his eyes from the abyss within.  Other eyes now snared his tightly . . . the eyes of the lord counselor's new god.

That was Xavius's first encounter with Sargeras.

"You must see it up close, Light of a Thousand Moons.  Then you'll understand what we have achieved . . ."
Azshara frowned.  She had come without her attendants at his request and perhaps she now regretted that.  Nevertheless, Azshara was queen and it behooved her to show that, even alone, she was in command of any situation.
With graceful strides, Azshara stepped up to the very edge of the pattern.  She first eyed the work of the Highborne currently casting, then deigned to set her gaze on the inferno within.
"It still strikes me as unchanged, dear Xavius.  I expected more from-"
She let out a gasp and though the counselor could not see her expression completely, he made out enough to know that Azshara now understood.

Now, this isn't conclusively stating that he essentially messed with her head, but it seems reasonable and strongly implied.  Especially given the instant subversion of what is clearly shown to be a huge ego on her part.  There really isn't another scenario that makes sense to me that has her going from wise, thoughtful, but highly egotistical queen to totally happy to see the entire world exterminated in an instant while she herself becomes second-fiddle to the guy in the portal.  Azshara may have been the most powerful mortal that ever lived, but she was looking straight into the face of Sargeras, at his full strength.  And she'd been put into the situation with no warning and specifically set up to be caught off guard and lacking in support, and then bam, fallen titan in her face.

I don't know how Sargeras approached the Eredar, but if it was anything like that, I don't blame Archimonde and Kil'jaeden for siding with him either.  Everyone else was after Sargeras was weakened by the destruction of the Well of Eternity.

[SurfD]

So should I be submitting a bug report to Blizzard that the dwarf-only Thorim quest is broken?  Because it seems other races than dwarves are rooting around Ulduar.  Really, you have to hand it to Brann though, he isn't throwing a shitfit that people are rooting around in the ruins created by his ancestors.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it's not like Brann can really claim any ancestral ownership over any of the Titan Vaults, is it?  Dwarves are directly descendant from animated rock, that was corrupted by the curse of flesh.  Pretty much EVERY Titan related structure ever created that had to do with the Earthen was already fully functional LONG before they mutated into current Dwarves.   And heck, their job was pretty much to maintain the place an help out with the work.  They were essentially menial labour, specificly designed to fit into the small spaces the big guys couldn't reach. 

If people were running around digging up actual Dwarven ruins, i can see this being a problem, but saying we are rooting around in ruins created by his ancestors is a bit of stretch.  That's about like saying that the descendants of servants for royalty should have ancestral claim over the royal castle after the Family line of the king / queen has died out.