Safes + concealment?

[Ironwood]

It's the Korean Neighbours, right ?

[WindupAtheist]

Here's my suggestion :  Hire a storage area offsite and transport the firearms the fucking helll out of your house.  Keep 1 or possibly 2 in a small gun locker, combination known only to yourself.

What the fuck is the difference between a safe containing 20 guns and a locker containing 2 when it comes to safety? What, is the kid going to shoot himself 20 times?

[Rendakor]

It's pretty hard to get a high score with only 1 gun.

[Ironwood]

Here's my suggestion :  Hire a storage area offsite and transport the firearms the fucking helll out of your house.  Keep 1 or possibly 2 in a small gun locker, combination known only to yourself.

What the fuck is the difference between a safe containing 20 guns and a locker containing 2 when it comes to safety? What, is the kid going to shoot himself 20 times?

The size of the locker you have to buy, you enormous tit.

[Sheepherder]

Where was that photo taken at Sheepherder?

St. Aubin, off of Juno beach.  It's supposed to be in the North Shore Regiment's operational area, where my grandfather was with the Queen's Own Rifles in the adjacent sector, though the only information I've ever seen in regards to this picture are captions amounting to "We don't know who the fuck these people are."

Back to the topic of guns, and ignoring Sir T's attempt at derailing into machine guns and assault weapons, keep a single shotgun and some ammunition on hand for home security (not that I believe it's an effective method), or go with a pistol.

The size of the locker you have to buy, you enormous tit.

Buy a locker and a storage unit of some sort, problem solved.

[gryeyes]

Buy a locker and a storage unit of some sort, problem solved.

Did you read what he said? Why would you doubt a shotgun for home security. Its pretty much the ultimate in home defense, barring a trained polar bear.

[Nerf]

It's been said in the gun thread, but you're new and probably won't bother reading it, so it bears repeating again.

Shotguns are /not/ the ultimate in home defense for several reasons, if anything they will serve you less than a pistol or rifle in the same situation due to misconception of its abilities.

1) You DO have to aim a shotgun, it is not a hip fired weapon and "the general vicinity" is not good enough, it takes a COM shot just like any other weapon to down a bad guy.
2) Penetration.  I often hear the whole "a shotgun is the best H/D weapon because the rounds won't penetrate walls!" - This is utter bullshit, even birdshot will go through drywall, though it won't do much more than piss off an intruder.  Ask the fellow Cheney shot in the face with birdshot about how effective it is.  A proper shotgun load is 00 buck or slugs, which will penetrate walls just as well as a rifle or pistol.
3) "Just rack the slide, it'll scare em off!" - It will also alert an intruder to your position before you are ready to fire.

Pistols and rifles (or more importantly, semi-automatic carbines) will do the same thing better.  They are generally smaller, enter battery quieter, and can put more lead on target faster than a shotgun.

Check out "The Box o' Truth" if you actually want to learn something, or just keep spouting off nonsense, I don't really care.

[Ironwood]

The size of the locker you have to buy, you enormous tit.

Buy a locker and a storage unit of some sort, problem solved.

Wait, isn't that what I said ?

Look, I think part of the problem here is that people are treating this as a gun thread.  I'm not.  I don't care.  He can have as many guns as he likes because he's got the right.  It's that simple.

However, where my brain went yoink was where he said it was to protect them from his son.  And then I chipped in with good advice about what I did when Elena came along.  I used to have around 6 swords in the house.  No joke.   They're not there anymore.  They're in storage.

Guns ENTIRELY ASIDE, I just find the idea of building secret cubbyholes in your own house and comments like "The Loft Can't Take The Weight" to be a little strange and kinda working AROUND the problem.

Get the guns/ITEMS OF NO POLITICAL VALUE WHATSOEVER out of the house until you're own your own.  Then convert the little shits room to your Gun Sanctuary.

For me, when I kick Elena out, I'm making a D&D Dungeon.  And then, according to the wife, inviting Samwise round.

[gryeyes]

Im sorry but you are fucking wrong.

1. You buy frangible rounds for the shotgun if you are concerned about over penetration (other members in the same home,apartment). Thats what they are designed for. And yes while even birdshot and 00 buck will go through drywall its very unlikely (not going to fucking happen)  its going to go through  2-3 interior walls,furniture,exterior walls then penetrate your neighbors exterior/interior and kill them?  Will any moderate caliber handgun and just about every fucking caliber rifle (especially those you would be using in home defense)? Ya they probably will.

Strike one

2. The amount of training required to become proficient with a rifle or handgun (especially in CQC) far exceeds that required to become proficient with a shotgun. And of course you are required to "aim" While highly variable to barrel,choke,load and gauge you can reasonably expect a spread of 8-10 inches at 10 yards with 00 buck. At 10 feet your spread will still probably be 2-4 inches, so to say the same amount of tolerances for accuracy exist between the differing firearms is likewise fucking moronic.

Strike two

3. Ummm i will ignore this point because its pretty fucking stupid.

Pistols and rifles (or more importantly, semi-automatic carbines) will do the same thing better.  They are generally smaller, enter battery quieter, and can put more lead on target faster than a shotgun.

And while your previous points are kind of ignorant and strawmanish this is just blatantly stupid/wrong. First of all comparing the ballistics of a handgun at close range to a shotgun is so fucking stupid i wont even address it. Likewise comparing a semi-automatic carbines (ignoring the issue of legality and restrictions) effectiveness at close range to a 00 buck is just woefully ignorant. And if we are using the cock yard stick of "putting lead down range" (which is probably criminally negligent not to mention ineffective SUPPRESING FIREZ IN MAI LIVINGZ ROOM!  )

I think it would only be fair to compare it to a semi-automatic combat shotgun of some type. But that is irrelevant because that's not really ideal for home defense either. In a real life situation the chances of you combating a squad of armed and trained assailants is absolutely nill. Its not going to become a firefight in which the "amount of lead you throw down range" is even a fucking factor. More so anyone with any amount of skill and a shotgun is not going to have to fire more than a couple times (Be willing to bet national statistics for home defense attest). At that point someone is fucking dead or running the fuck away.


Id say a short barreled Remington 870 is pretty ideal for home defense. I will go to your website and if it contradicts anything I know through a lifetime of hunting,CMP involvement,CQC classes (thought it would be nice to do before i got my CWP) and 4+ trips to the range a month I will respond to them.

[gryeyes]

Sorry for the huge double wall of text.   

2) Penetration.  I often hear the whole "a shotgun is the best H/D weapon because the rounds won't penetrate walls!" - This is utter bullshit, even birdshot will go through drywall, though it won't do much more than piss off an intruder.  Ask the fellow Cheney shot in the face with birdshot about how effective it is.  A proper shotgun load is 00 buck or slugs, which will penetrate walls just as well as a rifle or pistol.


Check out "The Box o' Truth" if you actually want to learn something, or just keep spouting off nonsense, I don't really care.

Regretfully for you, i actually took the time to look at your site just in case by some strange miracle i was wrong.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Why the fuck would you talk shit and then provide a source that directly contradicts your assertions?

[Merusk]

Consider that 6 boards of drywall is 3 walls.   That means it passes through two rooms and into a third.  It was also 5/8" sheetrock, and unless you have a home you redrywalled yourself that's 1/8" thicker on each lamination than you're going to get in your average home.  5/8" is only used in fire-rating situations when in a home, standard is 1/2".

This all discounts hitting studs, though.

[Ironwood]

You mean well built and handsome men ?

 

[gryeyes]

For certain that's why i kind of made a distinction between living alone in your own home and apartments/family. A medium  power handgun and for certain a rifle is still going to have the potential to go through your house, hit a house down the block and still kill someone. Even if the buck penetrated a couple walls went into neighbors home its pretty unlikely its going to kill someone even if it hit them. Also figure in most of your possessions tend to be at human height. Im sure we can find some ballistics info on penetration into gel setup behind some sheet rock. If i had to be concerned with children I believe i would be using some slightly less effective ammunition. And making damn sure if i had to fire it was not going to miss.

[Tale]

Giant walls of text about owning guns are a major sign of fruitcakery.

[Azazel]

The Gub'mint took mah guns away. (yes, really)

[Sir T]

Sung to the rune of Calafornai girls by the Bee Gees...

Via Zucker Abrams and Zucker

    Skeet Surfin'...
    Skeet Surfin'...
    If everybody had a 12 gauge
    With a sufboard too.
    You see em shootin and surfin'
    From here to Malibu.

    Because he's totally bitchin'
    Ridin waves and blastin' pigeons.
    And its a' neat shootin' skeet when youre ridin' on the heavies all day.


    First Wave (shoot shoot) Don't get tired. Second Wave (shoot shoot) Aim higher. Third Wave (shoot shoot) Pull it and fire.

    Skeet Surfin' (it's all right)

    Waxin' down our surfboards
    And loadin' up our traps.
    Tell the teacher we're shootin'
    And never comin' back.

    I've got a gun rack in my Chevy
    For when the surf and the flak get heavy.
    And we'll have fun with our guns until the lifeguard takes our ammo away.

    First wave (shoot shoot)
    Don't get tired.
    Second Wave (shoot shoot)
    Aim higher.
    Third Wave (shoot shoot)
    Pull it and fire.

    Skeet Surfin' (it's all right)

    First Wave (shoot shoot)
    Man what a 'natch.
    Second Wave (shoot shoot)
    Pullin' that trap.
    Third Wave (shoot shoot)
    How was that?

    Sharing sunsets with my favorite girl,
    When we shoot the curl we really shoot the curl.

    First wave (shoot shoot)
    Don't get tired.
    Second Wave (shoot shoot)
    Aim higher.
    Third Wave (shoot shoot)
    Pull it and fire.

    Skeet Surfin'

    First Wave (shoot shoot)
    Man what a 'natch.
    Second Wave (shoot shoot)
    Pullin' that trap.
    Third Wave Wave (shoot shoot)
    How was that?

    I wish they all could be double-barrel,
    Wish they all could be double barrel guns.

    Skeet surfin' can't you see?
    Do you wanna come along with me?

    (fade out)

(from the Movie "Top Secret")

[UnSub]

Its pretty much the ultimate in home defense, barring a trained polar bear.

I'm confused - is the trained polar bear more or less dangerous than 60 guns or a swimming pool?

And trained in what, exactly? If you trained the polar bear to use the guns (possibly while sliding down the stairs and into the swimming pool) wouldn't THAT be the ultimate in home defence?

[UnSub]

My neighbours keep shouting at each other in Korean, slamming doors and throwing furniture. My boss appears to keep repressed rage under his family man image. Swine flu is approaching from the ports. Two pigeons keep trying to land on my balcony.

Should I buy 40 guns?

No.

You need to buy a gun each for your Korean neighbours and have one delivered anonymously to your boss together with ammo and the message "IT IS TIME". Skip work and go for a long walk that day. Avoid cruise ship passengers, just in case.

The pigeons are just pigeons.

[Yegolev]

Since this thread is speeding toward the bottom already, I'll toss in here that a knife is far quieter than a gun.  Nevermind that I expect my home will be broken into while I am at work rather than while I'm actually there.  My wife wants to rig up traps and I keep telling her these are illegal, so the best I hope for is that they steal the 360 and it redrings on them.

If they steal the 60GB PS3, though, it's time for facepaint.

[Ironwood]

This is WHY I kept the Elvish Knife....

[MahrinSkel]

Everybody knows the perfect home defense weapon is a claymore.  Just remember, "This side towards enemy".

--Dave

[Samwise]

For me, when I kick Elena out, I'm making a D&D Dungeon.  And then, according to the wife, inviting Samwise round.

 

[Lantyssa]

Everybody knows the perfect home defense weapon is a claymore.  Just remember, "This side towards enemy".

The mine or the sword?  I'd think the sword would be too unwieldy in the confines of a home.

[Abagadro]

DO NOT put guns in an off site storage facility unless it is a specialty, high security one.  They are what I now call 'property theft aggregators' more than storage facilities.  That is where all of my guns were stolen from when I temporarily parked them there at the insistence of my overly paranoid wife.  The cop gave me a real hard time about it and basically told me I was a dumb fuck for puttng them there.

[MahrinSkel]

Everybody knows the perfect home defense weapon is a claymore.  Just remember, "This side towards enemy".

The mine or the sword?  I'd think the sword would be too unwieldy in the confines of a home.

I would think the mis-quoted labeling would clear up both the ambiguity and the question of "sarcasm?", but apparently not.  Or I'm falling into my own sarchasm.  Anyway, an M18A1 would certainly take care of an intruder without requiring careful aim, nor would you have to concern yourself with whether your walls were 1/2" or 5/8" sheetrock.

--Dave

[Yegolev]

I would also mention that if I stab/slice someone with a ten-inch knife, I'm not likely to continue cutting through walls or furniture or hung photos/art or ... et cetera.  I could live in a japanese paper hut and use a knife on an intruder, then immediately return to not being rained on.

[Lantyssa]

I would think the mis-quoted labeling would clear up both the ambiguity and the question of "sarcasm?", but apparently not.  Or I'm falling into my own sarchasm.  Anyway, an M18A1 would certainly take care of an intruder without requiring careful aim, nor would you have to concern yourself with whether your walls were 1/2" or 5/8" sheetrock.

I'm not a military person, so it wasn't really a giveaway to me.  Hitting them with the hilt would be less effective, too, so it still fits.

[Nerf]

Not quoting that huge wall of greyeyes text, but:

8 boards of drywall and being stopped by the ninth is enough penetration that you sure as hell better know whats behind your target if you miss.
Studs will stop most pistol rounds and slow down rifle rounds considerably if they do happen to penetrate.

Pistols rounds going through your interior walls, exterior walls, traveling down the block, penetrating another exterior wall and then killing someone? Jesus christ where do you get this shit, or do you live in a shantytown where it might actually be applicable?

Edit: I say *if* you miss, I should probably say when, as your advocating that you really don't need any training or practice to be proficient with a shotgun.  a 2-4" spread at 10 feet is better than alot of people can do with a fucking handgun or rifle, especially in a high stress scenario.  Any weapon that people are told "You don't really have to aim, its impossible to miss!" is a BAD FUCKING CHOICE FOR HOME DEFENSE.

[gryeyes]

Do yourself a favor and just stop.

[Tale]

The Gub'mint took mah guns away. (yes, really)

What's more, the CONSERVATIVE RIGHT-WING Gub'mint took the guns away!

[Azazel]

This is true.

[Sheepherder]

Did you read what he said? Why would you doubt a shotgun for home security. Its pretty much the ultimate in home defense, barring a trained polar bear.

No, I was implying that all guns fail at some fundamental aspect of home defense, not shotguns specifically.  Simply yelling "I called the cops", or triggering an alarm, will have every burglar booking it as fast as their legs will carry them, provided they figure you're not going to shoot them in the back.  In the latter case having a gun is a motivator for the criminal to stay so long as he hasn't managed to kill or injure you to secure his escape.  All of these grisly predicaments are solved by having an alarm go off when a sensor or button is triggered, especially if the proximity of the criminal to the victim is great enough that the criminal need not fear for his life.

Really, "self-defense" has always seemed to me to be a pretty flimsy justification for "I like guns and shooting things."  Which is fine, because I like guns and shooting things, I just need a justification to get my dad to let me use that Luger P08 we have lying around somewhere.

[gryeyes]

The prevalence of firearms in homes is one of the biggest factors in the US having only 15% burglaries occur while a home is occupied. The UK for example has twice the per capita burglaries of the US with over 50% of those occurring while the resident is home. Various surveys done have criminals stating "fear of being shot" as the main motivator for going out of their way to avoid robbing an occupied home. In situations where a confrontation occurs having a firearm significantly lowers the risk of harm to your person (statistics concerning self-defense vary widely).

But i do agree if my home was invaded and my only responsibility was my personal safety i would in all likelihood yell a warning that im armed while sitting in a dark corner in my bedroom firearm trained on the door waiting for the police arrive. That situation changes completely with the addition of children/loved ones. The circumstances in which you are going to NEED a weapon to protect your life from a home invader is rather small. But its not a contingency you should not be prepared for.

[Nerf]

Yelling "I've called the police!" or counting on alarm works great if you have a quick police response time.  The last time I had to call the police to deal with some drunken idiots trespassing on a dock and trying to start a fight, it took 40 minutes for them to show up.  In my city, if they show up inside of 10-15 minutes for *anything* you're lucky.  A first-time criminal might not know this, but you can bet your ass any criminal who's done it before is well aware of response times and what they can get away with in that window.

Solution: Yell out "I've called the police!" while holding a gun.

Greyeyes: Why would I stop, are you trying to say that advocating aimed fire is a bad idea?  Go shoot a few rounds of trap and tell me how well that not aiming thing works out for you.  Now remember that you're using no choke and birdshot and any HD load is going to have a spread 1/4 to 1/10th of that.

[Righ]

I'd think the sword would be too unwieldy in the confines of a home.

It really depends on the home more than anything. I had no trouble in Sir Ian Campbell's wee house.