Here comes the next content patch (3.2)

[Nevermore]

Because werewolves/wolvar/worgen have no link whatsoever to Druids and to have them shift into one of them would make no sense?

[Lakov_Sanite]

Did it get mentioned officially anywhere that bear color was linked to hair color? From what I gleamed it would be through the barbershop but I don't see why they could just add another selection choice for druids.

[Nevermore]

Right in the first paragraph of the announcement.

[Merusk]

The Tauren forms look a lot better.  Their shoulder tat changes color with the fur color, as does the armband.  It makes it pop that much more and shows a lot more attention to detail than the guy who did the NE forms.

[Vash]

Because werewolves/wolvar/worgen have no link whatsoever to Druids and to have them shift into one of them would make no sense?

Druids can't channel the spirit of a wolf for combat instead of a cat?    Plus, it would seem to make more sense to me if they retained some of their human shape instead of going full animal.  Channeling the spirit of an animal and gaining some of it's characteristics to become a Were-(insert animal here) seems like it would be more appropriate than just magically transforming into said animal, but that's pretty subjective.

I think the main reason druids ended up with animal forms instead of Were-forms is due to the graphic/technical limitations.  It's easier to make a low poly animal and have it look acceptable (it's already being done for the mobs) than to make a low poly Were-form that looks acceptable.  However that argument kinda falls on it's face since Worgen/Sons of Arugal have been in the game since the beginning.   

[Nevermore]

The Tauren forms look a lot better.  Their shoulder tat changes color with the fur color, as does the armband.  It makes it pop that much more and shows a lot more attention to detail than the guy who did the NE forms.

The NE shoulder tats and armbands also change color with the fur color.     They aren't multicolored like the Tauren tats, but that makes sense since the multicolored tats give the Tauren bears a more tribal look.

@Vash: Druids ended up with animal forms because they turned into animal forms in WCIII.

[Lantyssa]

Facial markings should affect the tattoos.

[K9]

@Vash: Druids ended up with animal forms because they turned into animal forms in WCIII.

The only animal forms they had in WCIII were bear and crow; Blizz could very well have given Druids wolf or lion or meerkat or badger forms instead of cat. Druids have no more of a connection to panther-like forms than they do to wolf-like forms based on warcraft lorelol.

[Nevermore]

Shaman are tied to wolves.  It would have been redundant to also tie them to Druids.

[K9]

Shaman could have been tied to panthers, or mysterious whales. You're missing the point that it's all arbitrary and could have been done differently with arguably better results.

[Nevermore]

They would have had to have made those decisions back in WCIII.  Shaman were tied to wolves back then.  See: Thrall.

Druids were likely tied to cats because they had cat mounts in WCIII.

[Ingmar]

@Vash: Druids ended up with animal forms because they turned into animal forms in WCIII.

The only animal forms they had in WCIII were bear and crow; Blizz could very well have given Druids wolf or lion or meerkat or badger forms instead of cat. Druids have no more of a connection to panther-like forms than they do to wolf-like forms based on warcraft lorelol.

Actually I'd say you're wrong. There's a strong Night Elf/Cat connection in WC3; they ride around on them, etc. Likewise wolves were more of an orc thing, they rode on them, shamans wore them for hats, etc. Because wolves are already basically attached to shaman lore, they needed to find something else for druids and cats makes the most sense since WC3 druids were all night elves, etc.

EDIT: Maybe I should read to the end of the thread before replying.

[Mattemeo]

While I think it's true that the art team could have taken the two races' bearforms to another level, the 10 new looks are all sharp, fit well into the more refined art direction the game has been taking recently, and are a vast, vast improvement on the cartoonish horror that the 5 year old bearform has been to date.

I think on the whole the Tauren versions display a little more to suggest their tauren-ness than the NE forms corespondingly, but this is a pre-beta preview so things may change. Overall though, I do like them a lot - sideburns and all in the NE case (the original bearform has them too, y'know...), they have a clever androgynous quality to them.

That said, I think tying the form colours to character's hair or skin colour is a nifty idea that will prove to fail utterly in practicality - why force a player to change their look in their 'human' form to get the colour 'animal' form they desire? It's going to cause a deluge of complaints when people can't marry their prefered hair/skin tone to whichever arbitrary dev judgement says the form colour belongs - something that already pisses me off to no end when it comes to rolling female NEs and being stuck with facial markings tied to hair colour (clue for Blizzard: red facial markings look bizarre when you choose dark blue hair).

[Fordel]

Those guys who would model edit into Werewolves or whatever were doing it for a proper hitbox in cat form.


As anyone whose ever tried to hit a moving target in catmode can attest too, its super fucking annoying.

[Sjofn]

That said, I think tying the form colours to character's hair or skin colour is a nifty idea that will prove to fail utterly in practicality - why force a player to change their look in their 'human' form to get the colour 'animal' form they desire?

Yes, that part is my main issue with the whole thing. It's just going to annoy people.

[Vash]

Those guys who would model edit into Werewolves or whatever were doing it for a proper hitbox in cat form.


As anyone whose ever tried to hit a moving target in catmode can attest too, its super fucking annoying.

Nah, it was just the display for their client only, their model looked normal to everyone else who saw them in game.  It's just a matter of personal taste and people who were sick of looking at the same bear and cat for 1000's of hours and not afraid to play around with the game files.  It was popular even before druids started doing it for Alliance hardcore pvp players who envied the cool factor of Forsaken/Undead looks and animations.  In fact it's still very popular for this reason, and for people who like the look of certain armor/weapons.

I know it's "technically" against the ELUA or whatever but that doesn't stop a lot of people from doing it since Blizzard doesn't appear to be overly interested in cracking down on it and doling out harsh punishments.  Additionally, as long as it's just a personal taste/display thing* and doesn't confer any actual advantages to a player, I don't mind and could care less about it.

*Pretty sure this is the case when most people talk about model changing, even though altering game files is murky water because someone who really knows what they're doing could alter them for an advantage.

[Gobbeldygook]

Additionally, as long as it's just a personal taste/display thing* and doesn't confer any actual advantages to a player, I don't mind and could care less about it.

*Pretty sure this is the case when most people talk about model changing, even though altering game files is murky water because someone who really knows what they're doing could alter them for an advantage.

Hit boxes are drawn based on the model.  If you use a bigger model, you'll have a bigger hitbox.  If you use a smaller one, you'll have a smaller hitbox.  Until recently (Wrath?), tauren had noticeably larger hitboxes than other races.  IIRC, the classic complaint is that tauren could melee onyxia in the air and other races couldn't.

edit: The most common abuse of model editing is replacing the walls on arenas or BGs so you can walk through them.

[Fordel]

Those guys who would model edit into Werewolves or whatever were doing it for a proper hitbox in cat form.


As anyone whose ever tried to hit a moving target in catmode can attest too, its super fucking annoying.

Nah, it was just the display for their client only, their model looked normal to everyone else who saw them in game.

Yes, which is precisely why it's always a humanoid model. With the standard cat model, your cats head has to literally be inside the other guys ass if you want to hit anything on the move, due to how weird the cat's hitbox is (or was, they might've fixed it by now).

[Sheepherder]

Hit boxes are drawn based on the model.  If you use a bigger model, you'll have a bigger hitbox.  If you use a smaller one, you'll have a smaller hitbox.

No.

The hit box will be a simple geometric shape for the purpose of quick BSP-based calculation build into the model, or added at runtime, which scales independently via a variable (ala Warcraft III).  The reason you have (had?  I don't play much cat.) to ram your head up a dude's ass to claw him is because the cat form will use the same hitbox as a humanoid which has half the visible size on one of the axises.  There is no Mythic seconds math here, it's just the cat model is more elongated than it should for the hitbox it was given.

[Fordel]

It's also why Cat Druids were addicted to nogenfogger until they nerfed that.

[March]

I agree with Vash... as a day 1 druid (my only 80) I personally think the game has moved beyond the pure animal form.

It was neat in 2004 to become a cat, but in 2009 with eight full gear escalation events, being a cat that does not scale with your armor and achievements is less than satisfying.

I'll happily admit that I'm probably in the minority, and that humanoid-animal forms are not fully within the Warcraft canon (/shrug, as if I give a crap about their 4th grade level "canon")... but re-doing a basic form into a higher poly-count basic form does not excite me.

Still, I wonder if a surprising majority of players would gravitate to a humanoid-animal form if there were an option.

Besides as a lifelong caster druid (now with dual goodness), the Moonkin and Tree forms forced on me have made playing my druid less enjoyable each and every day. Seriously.  If they gave me an option to have Moonkin Aura or Tree Aura (which they almost have), I'd never ever leave elf form.

...and I agree that tying the color of the beast to your hair color is going to be more annoying than they give themselves credit for.

[Vash]

Additionally, as long as it's just a personal taste/display thing* and doesn't confer any actual advantages to a player, I don't mind and could care less about it.

*Pretty sure this is the case when most people talk about model changing, even though altering game files is murky water because someone who really knows what they're doing could alter them for an advantage.

Hit boxes are drawn based on the model.  If you use a bigger model, you'll have a bigger hitbox.  If you use a smaller one, you'll have a smaller hitbox.  Until recently (Wrath?), tauren had noticeably larger hitboxes than other races.  IIRC, the classic complaint is that tauren could melee onyxia in the air and other races couldn't.

edit: The most common abuse of model editing is replacing the walls on arenas or BGs so you can walk through them.

Most "model changing" (the kind I'm refering to) is just changing what model you see displayed in your client.  If your a gnome, but want to see yourself as a tauren for whatever reason for example, the server still knows your a gnome, recieves data appropriate for a gnome, and gives you the hitbox of a gnome, even if you look like a tauren on your screen.  The data going between client and server is not being altered at all, it's just your client is displaying model Y instead of the model X it would normally display.

If players were actually altering the data going between client and server it would be detectable on Blizzards end and they would crack down on it pretty severely, and have many times over the years.  I'm not trying to say that sort of stuff doesn't happen though, but it's not what I'm refering to when I mention "model changing".

[Simond]

They would have had to have made those decisions back in WCIII.  Shaman were tied to wolves back then.  See: Thrall.

Also Ghost Wolf. Ghost = Spirit, therefore Ghost Wolf = Spirit of Wolf, therefore an Everquest reference/in-joke.
(Probably not  )

[Mattemeo]

So, as of patch 3.2, those lovely Rusted/Iron Proto-drake Ulduar meta-acheivement rewards introduced in 3.1 are disappearing.

Seriously, Blizzard. Fuck off with the cockteasing. Stop taking shit away before anyone but the psychos with no lives or Saudi prince trust funds can get to it.

I know the whole 'everyone has the right to all content' argument has been beaten to death on this board, but for fuck's sake, at the very least can't I have the dellusion of being able to attain one of these things one day?

[Koyasha]

The entire point of those achievements is to reward for something supposedly hard.  If they continue to give the reward after gear improvements make something less hard than it used to be, there'd be little point in them being achievements for something hard, since eventually anyone would be able to get them.

[Lantyssa]

It's okay to reward players who've been with your game long enough to slowly earn the 'hard' rewards as it is to reward the people who chew through content so fast that you're forced to have something new every week else they complain.

[Fordel]

The mounts are pure e-peen. That is the sole reason they exist, so that poopsockers can wave it around.


When they start two shoting (is shoting a real word?) me with their rusted proto-drakes I'll give a shit.

[Chimpy]

shotting (maybe not a real word, but the one poopsockers use has 2 ts)

[Kail]

The entire point of those achievements is to reward for something supposedly hard.  If they continue to give the reward after gear improvements make something less hard than it used to be, there'd be little point in them being achievements for something hard, since eventually anyone would be able to get them.

Then base the achievement around the difficulty (e.g. "Clear Ulduar while no one in the raid is wearing anything anything stronger than tier 8").  What they're doing now is basing it around how close you are to the bleeding edge guilds, which is not the same.  Doing Naxx in quest greens is just as hard today as it was four months ago.

Not that I'm particularly hung up on the mounts, just irritated in general at the way the achievement system is implemented.

[Fordel]

Then base the achievement around the difficulty (e.g. "Clear Ulduar while no one in the raid is wearing anything anything stronger than tier 8").  What they're doing now is basing it around how close you are to the bleeding edge guilds, which is not the same.  Doing Naxx in quest greens is just as hard today as it was four months ago.

Not that I'm particularly hung up on the mounts, just irritated in general at the way the achievement system is implemented.

It isn't though. Even if only because everyone knows all the little tricks and shit now, but crap gets nerfed/adjusted as do class abilities/talents. The speed/urgency itself is part of the "difficulty".

The poopsockers being able to literally ride their E-Peens is such a better system then what we used to get, it's the bone they got thrown to assuage their ego's while not actually locking anyone out from entire zones worth of content anymore.

[Kail]

Doing Naxx in quest greens is just as hard today as it was four months ago.

It isn't though. Even if only because everyone knows all the little tricks and shit now, but crap gets nerfed/adjusted as do class abilities/talents. The speed/urgency itself is part of the "difficulty".

People knew the little tricks for Naxx even as far back as four months ago, as I recall.  The re-balances and bug fixes swing both ways; it's possible that there have been slightly more buffs than nerfs (that's tough for me to measure), but even so, I'd argue it's a comparable achievement.

And it's the speed/urgency being part of the "difficulty" that I'm bitching about.  I have no problem with handing out a little gold star for jumping through a difficult hoop.  I start having problems with it when that hoop becomes a measurement of your ratio of game time to real life.  That's not something I really feel deserves a pat on the back.  It's not the kind of thing you should be encouraging.

Mostly it just pisses me off to see all these temporary achievements.  While previously, yeah, it sucked to be locked out of content, at least now I can go back and re-do it if I feel like it.  Your e-peen wasn't about what armor you had, it was about when you had it (I.E. before everyone else).  Now they're saying that if you don't hit the raid while it's at the top of the ladder, you're never getting that whatchamacallit, and it bugs me.

I mean, I know it's not really a big deal.  It's not like it's RAR BLIZZ U SUK I QUITY material for me.  Just bugs me a bit.

[March]

It's okay to reward players who've been with your game long enough to slowly earn the 'hard' rewards as it is to reward the people who chew through content so fast that you're forced to have something new every week else they complain.

Agreed.  I'd even go so far as to say part of the mid-term issues I always seem to have with WoW is that they reset the game in ways that push me out of the end-game fun.

It is one thing to have bleeding edge rewards for the crowd that wants them... it is quite another to move the bar mid-leap.  By the time my Orc slaying journeyman hero catches up to you Dragon killing masters, you're already on to the next color of shiny.

I'm sure they are aware of this as an issue, since they have totally re-vamped the game from the old Molten Core days; but there still seems to be a strange vestige of poopsockery that is frankly mystifying in that it has no upside for a company that is constantly looking for the upside of everything.

[Fordel]

It lets them (blizz) claim they are still "hard core" or whatever. While the number of actual true 'hardcore' players is really small, there is a far larger number of players that THINK they are (or want to be) hardcore, and putting flying E-Peens in that are time limited (which makes the E-Peen bigger, exclusivity is always worth a few inches) is one of the better ways to cater to that crowd (or wannabe crowd).


The Hard Modes and Achievements are a good way to allow everyday Joe access to the new content while still giving the poopsockers something to grind their nuts on. While the hardcore were working on their Immortal Achievements in Naxx, everyone else was just polishing it off and finally getting it on 'farm'. The Hardcore went through Ulduar in a week or two, but now they get to bash their head against all the hardmode achievements. By the time most of them put those hardmodes on farm, the every day folks will have put Ulduar at completion and farm.

We'll both get to Ice crown at the same time, they'll just be riding fancy dragons around the meeting stone and have more achieverpoints then us. I find it nearly impossible to give a shit about that and if it makes them happy, /twirl

[Lakov_Sanite]

Hard modes drop extra and better loot, that is the incentive for doing them. I'm not sure why people get so upset about the drakes, they are meant to be for the bleeding edge only. I mean what else do you want?

Blizzard has already made raids smaller, they've made raids easier and they've even made the loot you can get in 10man comparable to 25man stuff for the most part.  As stupid as poopsockers are for complaining about blizzard making everything casual, others are equally ridiculous for complaining they can't have everything. 

[Paelos]

The proto-drakes look ridiculous anyway. Knuckle dragging dragons, oooooh. 

It's like the epeen people who wanted the stupid flamer phoenix mount because it was rare.