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Author Topic: Warhammer completed  (Read 35209 times)
ghost
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Reply #70 on: April 07, 2009, 01:51:36 PM

This again speaks to the idea that Mythic would have been well served to enlist the services of a psychologist in their efforts to create a PvP game.  There are so many variables here that it is difficult to say what people are going to enjoy.  It seems like most of your casual types will see the stronger side kicking them out of the city for a while as more of a nuisance than something that would give that "revenge factor" that I think Mythic was intending.  This type of negative reinforcement rarely works, particularly for something people are expecting to enjoy.  Then you factor in the types of people that will enjoy the possibility of making the other side suffer in some way and you are going to get more of the sadistic weirdo types on one side, thus leading to likely imbalances in the population.  The funny thing is that morale plays a huge role in the tabletop Warhammer game, yet they didn't even bother to explore the morale factor of the online players at all.  It seems Blizzard has this gambler's reward type system figured out.  Maybe Mythic should give them a call.
IainC
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Reply #71 on: April 07, 2009, 01:57:08 PM

It should also be noted that for a long time (until ToA), DAoC pvp was largely gear non-dependent.  

I disagree with this point.  ToA made gear a much bigger factor in pvp than pre-ToA did.  Pre-ToA people had little to work with and often you saw people running around with little more than epic gear, a few crafted, and a couple quest items.  It was post ToA that gear had more to do with pvp outcomes. 
 

It was a different story this side of the pond, unless you were Sidi'd up with perfect SC gear and the must-have quest drops, you were never going to get in the cool groups, then when TOA made Sidi/Galladoria/TG obsolete the new baseline moved north again. There was however a clear and significant bar to clear before you were considered a 'proper RvR capable character' even pre-TOA.


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Morfiend
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Reply #72 on: April 07, 2009, 02:08:43 PM

I have been playing recently, and the character I ended up sticking with was Marauder. Anyway, he is level 19 now, and the time needed to level is horrible. Well maybe not really, but it feels that way, cause the PVE is so stale and the PVP is so lacking.

Then I ran out of rested EXP, and my server currently has the +20% bonus.

It kicked me in the fact what its going to be like t3, with none of those bonuses.
Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #73 on: April 07, 2009, 02:17:53 PM

It kicked me in the fact what its going to be like t3, with none of those bonuses.
You should also consider that Marauders are one of the best leveling AoE classes in the game. Were you playing a zealot, it'd take you about 20sec to down a mob in t2. More if it carries a shield.

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Nefar
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Reply #74 on: April 07, 2009, 02:21:27 PM

I have been playing recently, and the character I ended up sticking with was Marauder. Anyway, he is level 19 now, and the time needed to level is horrible. Well maybe not really, but it feels that way, cause the PVE is so stale and the PVP is so lacking.

Then I ran out of rested EXP, and my server currently has the +20% bonus.

It kicked me in the fact what its going to be like t3, with none of those bonuses.


Morfiend likes to get me into games then take off two weeks later for another game.   Think we have gone through the gambit of MMO trials in the last 2 months Ha.
Morfiend
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Reply #75 on: April 07, 2009, 04:37:59 PM

I have been playing recently, and the character I ended up sticking with was Marauder. Anyway, he is level 19 now, and the time needed to level is horrible. Well maybe not really, but it feels that way, cause the PVE is so stale and the PVP is so lacking.

Then I ran out of rested EXP, and my server currently has the +20% bonus.

It kicked me in the fact what its going to be like t3, with none of those bonuses.


Morfiend likes to get me into games then take off two weeks later for another game.   Think we have gone through the gambit of MMO trials in the last 2 months Ha.

The increased performance and RVR in tier 1 got me excited. I should have known that t3 would kick our asses.
Delmania
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Reply #76 on: April 07, 2009, 07:50:26 PM

It was a different story this side of the pond, unless you were Sidi'd up with perfect SC gear and the must-have quest drops, you were never going to get in the cool groups, then when TOA made Sidi/Galladoria/TG obsolete the new baseline moved north again. There was however a clear and significant bar to clear before you were considered a 'proper RvR capable character' even pre-TOA.

From my perspective, Spellcrafting was an awesome addition because it did go to great lengths to equalize the gear factor.   However, I really disagree with this.  I distinctly remember being able to cap 4 stats, get 25% to all resists, and decent +skills on my reaver in just 99% OC'ed SC'ed gear and some quest items.  It was expensive, but that's what DF was for.  Get the seals, salvage/trinket the BP, sell it to a vendor.

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Reply #77 on: April 07, 2009, 09:47:53 PM

What the people who want games to be more realistic don't realize is that historical, REAL war wasn't fought by two sides that were even close to equal. The whole point of tactics and strategy is to make it as easy as possible to achieve a favorable outcome for your side. Most battles weren't fought between even remotely equal sides. The zerg rush WAS the best strategy, because if you could get 15x more troops than your opponent, it didn't matter how good they were on an individual basis. You don't want realistic warfare in PVP games, you want both sides to have a chance to win and a chance to recover.

Hell, even PLAY2CRUSH Shadowbane resets the server when one side gets too powerful.

Haemish's point is the heart of RvR issues. Players want a fair war that they have a good chance of winning. This isn't possible for every player on the battlefield. Some players get to be the grunts who die first, or killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's why I get a laugh out of the term 'meaningful PvP/ RvR'. If it means something, you can be guaranteed that side that stacks the deck the most in their favour - the zerg being the best example because it requires the least coordination - is going to win and then the other side loses something meaningful. That side, who pays $15 a month, then gets pissed off and quits (or a proportion of them do). The side who wins then has further advantage in winning again. The cycle repeats. (EVE shows you need plenty of people and plenty of space to keep this cycle going between 2 - 3 sides of roughly similar size. Also: lots of drama.)

PvP only really works in this way if every battle is somehow even and then it is player skill that determines victory, not numbers or gear, and the losers have a chance of getting back into the game.

Oh, and WAR is a great game to learn from - about how mainstream players react to these kind of mechanics. In short: not well.

Azazel
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Reply #78 on: April 07, 2009, 11:03:40 PM

Remember this?


http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Triforcer
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Reply #79 on: April 07, 2009, 11:20:22 PM


PvP only really works in this way if every battle is somehow even and then it is player skill that determines victory, not numbers or gear, and the losers have a chance of getting back into the game.


Isn't this pretty much the same thing as saying that only Deathmatch FPSes work?  Your definition is impossible to attain in a persistent, non-FPS MMO. 

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Reply #80 on: April 08, 2009, 01:11:06 AM


PvP only really works in this way if every battle is somehow even and then it is player skill that determines victory, not numbers or gear, and the losers have a chance of getting back into the game.


Isn't this pretty much the same thing as saying that only Deathmatch FPSes work?  Your definition is impossible to attain in a persistent, non-FPS MMO. 

And EVE.

I'm amazed that more MMO game designers - some of whom are likely also huge wargamers AND military history buffs - haven't thought through what the history of human conflict tells them about how they should design their game for mass PvP.

IainC
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Reply #81 on: April 08, 2009, 02:12:30 AM

And EVE.

I'm amazed that more MMO game designers - some of whom are likely also huge wargamers AND military history buffs - haven't thought through what the history of human conflict tells them about how they should design their game for mass PvP.

Perhaps they're looking at the wrong examples?

"Hey, you know after having their capital city flattened back to level one having to sign a humiliating and punitive peace treaty, Order Germany harnessed the awesome power of realm pride to come right back out fighting and retake tier 4 Europe!"

Yeah I Godwinned a WAR thread...

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Megrim
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Reply #82 on: April 08, 2009, 02:20:38 AM

Sooo... you're saying we should start gassing the Elves pre-emptively just to shorten the process?

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eldaec
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Reply #83 on: April 08, 2009, 02:27:01 AM

Sooo... you're saying we should start gassing the Elves pre-emptively just to shorten the process?

This is a good idea regardless of realm pride.

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Reply #84 on: April 08, 2009, 03:13:16 AM

And EVE.

I'm amazed that more MMO game designers - some of whom are likely also huge wargamers AND military history buffs - haven't thought through what the history of human conflict tells them about how they should design their game for mass PvP.

Perhaps they're looking at the wrong examples?

"Hey, you know after having their capital city flattened back to level one having to sign a humiliating and punitive peace treaty, Order Germany harnessed the awesome power of realm pride to come right back out fighting and retake tier 4 Europe!"

Yeah I Godwinned a WAR thread...

The raid leader started out strong, but set two major guilds on KOS at the same time.

And I agree with the example if Order gets a massive industrial base on which to rebuild.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Lantyssa
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Reply #85 on: April 08, 2009, 10:42:28 AM

Was it WAR that was going to have NPCs fill out rosters to even up fights?  Make NPCs with real AI, not this watered down MMO AI I like to bitch about, and it'd be like adding bots to a FPS match to add bodies and even up the sides.  Really, if you want PvP, then it's okay to steal some FPS concepts.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
JWIV
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Reply #86 on: April 08, 2009, 10:50:28 AM

Remember this?



What does Italy Tilea have to do with this?   (DoW was one of my first armies and was seriously wonky though pikes were  Heart)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 10:52:21 AM by JWIV »
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #87 on: April 08, 2009, 11:10:42 AM

Was it WAR that was going to have NPCs fill out rosters to even up fights?  Make NPCs with real AI, not this watered down MMO AI I like to bitch about, and it'd be like adding bots to a FPS match to add bodies and even up the sides.  Really, if you want PvP, then it's okay to steal some FPS concepts.
Ya, it was a something hyped when they first talked about WAR.  It seemed to be thrown out the window about the same time they decided to add keeps.  Given how much trouble their shitty AI has given them, I doubt they were up to the task.  But technically speaking, Guild Wars proves it is a feasible task.

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Redgiant
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Reply #88 on: April 08, 2009, 12:02:38 PM

And people used to think relic resets were draconian and unfair. Oh how times change.

DAoC was a picture of balance perfection until ToA, compared to WAR.

- 3 sides, for obvious reasons
- strategy and tactics mattered in every fight of any scale, hell even in roaming
- scouting, reporting, coordination in real-time were essential. A larger force would often be beaten by a better coordinated and organized side.
- keep structure, access points, wall climbing, destructible walls, stacking rams, repairs, upgrades, placing seige where you wanted and needed it most gave variety.
- until ToA, gear mattered only in that everyone bothered getting their Epics and some crafted pieces. It was possible for anyone without ridiculous effort. The RvR was expected that you had this decent easily-obtained stuff. So no, gear was not a blocking factor in the first 2 years of DAoC.

If you want to talk about DAoC's golden years, please stop refering to anything from ToA onward.

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Nebu
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Reply #89 on: April 08, 2009, 12:19:53 PM

If you want to talk about DAoC's golden years, please stop refering to anything from ToA onward.

Actually, the classic rules servers were, in many ways, superior to the golden years.  I was there for both. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Brogarn
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Reply #90 on: April 08, 2009, 12:37:44 PM

Actually, the classic rules servers were, in many ways, superior to the golden years.  I was there for both. 

Agreed. I also thought Catacombs as an expansion was pretty good. So having everything they did minus ToA made for a rather fun game, imo.
Nevermore
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Reply #91 on: April 08, 2009, 12:45:14 PM

If you want to talk about DAoC's golden years, please stop refering to anything from ToA onward.

Actually, the classic rules servers were, in many ways, superior to the golden years.  I was there for both. 

Tethered buffs, right?  Buffbots were the one thing I hated so much about DAoC that I ended up quitting over them.

Over and out.
Ingmar
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Reply #92 on: April 08, 2009, 01:14:27 PM

No buffbots was the best feature of Gareth, etc., yeah. Better even than lack of TOA imo.

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Morfiend
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Reply #93 on: April 08, 2009, 01:40:34 PM

Once again we seem to be back to "WTF where they thinking?". Its like they took everything that was good about DAoC, and left it out.
Nebu
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Reply #94 on: April 08, 2009, 02:24:06 PM

No buffbots was the best feature of Gareth, etc., yeah. Better even than lack of TOA imo.

To be fair, there were still plenty of buffbots.  They were just in tow or hidden in bridge towers or under water.  Quite a few stealthers also hid them in the labyrinth or in nearby towers or keeps.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
kildorn
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Reply #95 on: April 08, 2009, 03:11:33 PM

Man, buffbots. Where portal keeps had relic siege sized armies of AFK clerics.

Launch DAOC had issues (no RAs, no CC immunity timers, AE stun laughs abounded!), but spellcrafting was an amazing addition that invalidated most of the shitty pve grind in order to say "hey, the point of the game is over THERE"

WAR took that and went "we need epic dungeons and tiers of capped content gear. Because being the only MMO company to make popular servers that REMOVED and expansion means we should repeat it's huge mistakes"
Tannhauser
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Reply #96 on: April 08, 2009, 06:53:10 PM

You guys are gonna go crazy trying to find the method to Mythic's madness.  There isn't any. 
Bismallah
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Reply #97 on: April 08, 2009, 07:38:08 PM

Buffbots made them a lot of money ;)

Classic servers were great. The planned server for the 'invasion' rule set would have been a great indicator of the debacle that is WAR's end game. However, I find for some reason that ever elusive phrase 'realm pride' was very strong in DAOC and for some reason almost non existent in WAR.
Morfiend
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Reply #98 on: April 08, 2009, 07:52:45 PM

However, I find for some reason that ever elusive phrase 'realm pride' was very strong in DAOC and for some reason almost non existent in WAR.


Thats not true, have you seen how much pride Destro takes in whining about Bright Wizards?
Segoris
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Reply #99 on: April 08, 2009, 08:15:07 PM

Classic servers were great. The planned server for the 'invasion' rule set would have been a great indicator of the debacle that is WAR's end game. However, I find for some reason that ever elusive phrase 'realm pride' was very strong in DAOC and for some reason almost non existent in WAR.

I honestly think that DAoC with an invasion server wouldn't have been nearly as bad as this is. It relates back to the 3 realms vs 2, also the fact that all the players would have back up banks, crafting areas/merchants, housing, dungeons, etc (especially with how good housing was in that game, imo). I honestly thought it was a good idea for WAR too, or I did back when they had 3 capitols per side. Seeing the time it takes to invade a single capitol, having a backup or two for the losing team would mean they aren't as fucked as they currently are by losing their one and only capitol. Although, even with that change the game would still be shit, but at least they wouldn't have to worry as much about losing people over not having any capitol at all as the losing side wouldn't feel be completely fucked.
Sjofn
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Reply #100 on: April 08, 2009, 11:56:27 PM

Darkness Rising (I think that was the name of that little expansion) was actually pretty cool too. The main flaw was all three realms had basically the same storyline for the overreaching quest, which was sort of dumb, but it was kind of nice to have a little campaign to spice up the PvE a little.

Goddammit, Mythic. ><

God Save the Horn Players
Chockonuts
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Reply #101 on: April 09, 2009, 01:32:51 AM

I still can't figure out how Mythic can take a game and make it pretty on the outside and ugly on the inside, while a low budget company like Aventurine can make a game ugly on the outside and pretty on the inside ( faction-wise). Maybe its because its pretty much all they have to do in Darkfall, but those people there really seem to want to kill each other without any carrot waving.  Has anyone read any of those alliance report briefings?

I always wondered what kind of game this would have been if Skaven, Order, Greenskins etc.. all behaved like guilds and alliances do in Darkfall.  Every guild/faction for themselves, until they start getting rolled.
Delmania
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Reply #102 on: April 09, 2009, 08:02:14 AM

I still can't figure out how Mythic can take a game and make it pretty on the outside and ugly on the inside, while a low budget company like Aventurine can make a game ugly on the outside and pretty on the inside ( faction-wise). Maybe its because its pretty much all they have to do in Darkfall, but those people there really seem to want to kill each other without any carrot waving.  Has anyone read any of those alliance report briefings?

I always wondered what kind of game this would have been if Skaven, Order, Greenskins etc.. all behaved like guilds and alliances do in Darkfall.  Every guild/faction for themselves, until they start getting rolled.

Advertine was aiming for a niche market.  Mythic was aiming to take on WoW. 

Lantyssa
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Reply #103 on: April 09, 2009, 10:14:16 AM

They need to work on their aim.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Tarami
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Reply #104 on: April 09, 2009, 11:08:11 AM

They need to work on their aim.
If you've ever visited a unisex restroom, you know how guys think about aiming. Also, the mess made generally relates to the size of the prick and Barnett is one of the largest I've seen.

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