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Author Topic: Warhammer completed  (Read 32611 times)
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10482


Reply #105 on: April 10, 2009, 07:27:05 AM


I honestly think that DAoC with an invasion server wouldn't have been nearly as bad as this is. It relates back to the 3 realms vs 2

3 realms versus 2 is a huge difference that many will downplay in importance.  It provides a level of unpredictability on a broad scale that WAR could use.  Sure, one side will probably get beat up on more than the other two, but that is okay.  Right now, the broad WAR game is terribly predictable and exceedingly complex in all the wrong areas.  Tying all the PVE aspects in the game into the zone locks was unbelievably stupid.
Nebu
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Reply #106 on: April 10, 2009, 10:06:48 AM

Three realms + lessen the grind. 

Replay value goes up.  Realm dominance shifts.  Gameplay scenery and variety improves. 

Hey... sounds like DAoC v2.0.  Now we're back to the point where all these threads circle to. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10482


Reply #107 on: April 10, 2009, 10:16:29 AM

Now we're back to the point where all these threads circle to. 

I can tell you where War is circling to............. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Delmania
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Reply #108 on: April 10, 2009, 08:18:48 PM

3 realms as oppoised to 2, and make the reward for RvR be RvR related, like the relics were.

Fordel
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Reply #109 on: April 10, 2009, 10:00:44 PM


I honestly think that DAoC with an invasion server wouldn't have been nearly as bad as this is. It relates back to the 3 realms vs 2

3 realms versus 2 is a huge difference that many will downplay in importance.  It provides a level of unpredictability on a broad scale that WAR could use.  Sure, one side will probably get beat up on more than the other two, but that is okay.  Right now, the broad WAR game is terribly predictable and exceedingly complex in all the wrong areas.  Tying all the PVE aspects in the game into the zone locks was unbelievably stupid.

How is that any different for the losing side? Three realms, 5 realms, 25 realms, if you are constantly the whipping boy realm, it sucks all the same no matter how many realms are beating on you.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Nebu
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Reply #110 on: April 10, 2009, 10:51:39 PM

I want to be locked out of my capital city's functionality... because losing wasn't bad enough!

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
UnSub
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Reply #111 on: April 11, 2009, 03:03:13 AM

Fordel - the more sides, the more chances to ally yourself up with a larger force.

pxib
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Reply #112 on: April 11, 2009, 01:22:03 PM

Fordel - the more sides, the more chances to ally yourself up with a larger force.
I believe things would work more along the lines of an MMG Duverger's Law. If the winner gains advantage from winning, and superior numbers is all it takes, folks will tend to ally themselves with the most poweful side or its most poweful opposition... until really there are just two sides. The only way to prevent this is to have every starting "realm" be comperably powerful... and that's more likely with three realms than it is with five or twenty-five.

No matter what, it's unlikely that any single realm would consistantly be ganged up on by everybody else unless it was simultaneously popular and weak... an unlikely combination. Too few players and it's hardly worth the time to check if there's anybody to squash today. Too strong, and it won't remain either unpopular or an easy target.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #113 on: April 11, 2009, 06:27:31 PM

Fordel - the more sides, the more chances to ally yourself up with a larger force.
I believe things would work more along the lines of an MMG Duverger's Law. If the winner gains advantage from winning, and superior numbers is all it takes, folks will tend to ally themselves with the most poweful side or its most poweful opposition... until really there are just two sides. The only way to prevent this is to have every starting "realm" be comperably powerful... and that's more likely with three realms than it is with five or twenty-five.

No matter what, it's unlikely that any single realm would consistantly be ganged up on by everybody else unless it was simultaneously popular and weak... an unlikely combination. Too few players and it's hardly worth the time to check if there's anybody to squash today. Too strong, and it won't remain either unpopular or an easy target.

Hibernia?

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #114 on: April 11, 2009, 06:43:06 PM

I'd say three sides is the sweet spot. Though I do like how every guild can be a faction in Eve.
I do wonder how a game would work if it had 3 hardcoded factions and a fourth "free for all" category for mercenaries and pirate raider types.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
pxib
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Reply #115 on: April 11, 2009, 06:54:58 PM

Hibernia?
Emain Macha was a perfect storm of gameplay mechanics. The fastest and easiest way to fight zerg vs. zerg was to get involved in a milegate battle in the third realm. The distances involved were the most manageable that way, keeping respawn rates high. Emain Macha happened to have the most open visiblity of any RvR zone, making the zerg easy to find and accidents with monster aggro considerably less common. Since increase in realm rank was pretty directly tied to kills/hour, there was little reason to go anywhere else... and if nobody was at the other milegate, why not take the zerg to the keeps?

When Hibernia used this all to their advantage (by vulturing exhausted zergs after Albion/Midgard milegate battles or regularly rushing the keeps in the largely abandoned Albion and Midgard zones) they tended to do quite well.
FatuousTwat
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Reply #116 on: April 11, 2009, 07:04:52 PM

Hibernia had the second highest population on Tristan, after Albion, but we always did better than either realm.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10482


Reply #117 on: April 11, 2009, 08:46:04 PM

I'd say three sides is the sweet spot. Though I do like how every guild can be a faction in Eve.
I do wonder how a game would work if it had 3 hardcoded factions and a fourth "free for all" category for mercenaries and pirate raider types.

Hence the intrigue factor in Eve, something a lot of other games don't have. 
Fordel
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Reply #118 on: April 12, 2009, 12:07:22 AM

Fordel - the more sides, the more chances to ally yourself up with a larger force.


Until all the sides are chosen and your still at the bottom, getting waffle stomped. The only thing 3 realms did for the "loser" realm in DaoC 90% of the time, was let the loser realm get screwed from multiple directions.


Even in EVE, with it's multitude of forces, it still ends up at its base with the larger and/or superior force just rolling all over the weaker one.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Segoris
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Reply #119 on: April 12, 2009, 11:58:10 AM

Now we're back to the point where all these threads circle to. 

I can tell you where War is circling to............. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Alex, I'm going to go with "what is the drain?"
waffel
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Reply #120 on: April 12, 2009, 12:57:20 PM

How did the weaker realm in DAoC get stomped? Maybe they lost their relics?

Woop de do.

Its not like the players of the weaker realm can't make an 8 man and roll around looking for other 8 mans, or go over to whatever RvR area is empty and take keeps (which almost always 'produced' people to fight)

1v1v1 is simply better than 1v1 in so many ways which have already been discussed. The fact that one of the 1's might be a bit weaker and get teamed up on is SUPPOSED to happen and an accepted part of the 1v1v1 setup.
Nebu
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Reply #121 on: April 12, 2009, 01:02:14 PM

How did the weaker realm in DAoC get stomped? Maybe they lost their relics?

Woop de do.

Having a 20% advantage in healing, cast dps, and melee dps mattered... a lot.  Losing all of your relics sucked, especiall when one realm had all 6.  The relic system made the three realm aspect seem broken when it was really the relic system that needed a fix. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #122 on: April 12, 2009, 01:31:55 PM

What i want to know is why pvp can't have effects that don't directly relate to gameplay?  Maybe have a realm getting defeated just turn their hometown into a smoking rubble or have a ruined look while still being functional. Or have progressive victories build up your own city so that it looks more grand or allow player armor to look nicer.

Why does it always turn into a stats fest with world pvp and mythic? People who care about pvp will still pvp to restore a city, they dont need loot rewards for it. There's always pve for loot.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
IainC
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Reply #123 on: April 12, 2009, 01:43:33 PM

How did the weaker realm in DAoC get stomped? Maybe they lost their relics?

Woop de do.

Having a 20% advantage in healing, cast dps, and melee dps mattered... a lot.  Losing all of your relics sucked, especiall when one realm had all 6.  The relic system made the three realm aspect seem broken when it was really the relic system that needed a fix. 
One realm having all six and keeping them wasn't that common though - especially in NF when taking enemy relics and defending captured relics became a lot harder. Remember the baseline was no bonus. If you lost your relics, you didn't suffer any penalty only a captured relic gave your side a bonus and only if you still had your own relic of the same type.

If one side had all 6 relics, then both the other sides had an incentive to team up and reclaim their property, very few servers were so grossly unbalanced that both the smaller sides couldn't successfully raid the larger realm.

The relic bonuses made a difference of course but, in general situational factors made more of a difference in most fights, only the solo scene was heavily affected by relic balance.

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Fordel
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Reply #124 on: April 12, 2009, 03:39:17 PM

What usually happened was 3 power in one realm, 3 strength in the other (or 4:2 with one realm owning all their relics) with the third realm never owning their own keeps, relics and not having any ability to impact the RvR aspect of the game.



and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
ghost
The Dentist
Posts: 10482


Reply #125 on: April 12, 2009, 04:51:30 PM

What usually happened was 3 power in one realm, 3 strength in the other (or 4:2 with one realm owning all their relics) with the third realm never owning their own keeps, relics and not having any ability to impact the RvR aspect of the game.




I would still argue that the DAOC system is much preferable to the current WAR 2 faction system.  You bring up points that show that the DAOC 3 faction system isn't perfect, but nothing will be absolutely perfect.  What you have in WAR now is complete predictability. 
Nebu
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Reply #126 on: April 12, 2009, 05:49:20 PM

WAR tried to be a hybrid between WoW and DAoC and got neither half right.  The game is terrible outside of the first tier and even there it has some serious issues. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #127 on: April 12, 2009, 06:00:24 PM

Which is why you all should join me back in AoC. Just sayin'

"Who uses Outlook anyway?  People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
Nebu
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Reply #128 on: April 12, 2009, 06:02:18 PM

Which is why you all should join me back in AoC. Just sayin'

AoC scared me away in an almost identical way... great first 20 levels and then MEH!  If the endgame has improved significantly, I may consider it.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ratman_tf
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Reply #129 on: April 12, 2009, 07:51:31 PM

WAR tried to be a hybrid between WoW and DAoC and got neither half right.  The game is terrible outside of the first tier and even there it has some serious issues. 

And Mythic are too stubborn or clueless or both to properly fix it. Convo over, what's for dinner?



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Hindenburg
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Itto


Reply #130 on: April 12, 2009, 08:26:11 PM

Which is why you all should join me back in AoC. Just sayin'

AoC scared me away in an almost identical way... great first 20 levels and then MEH!  If the endgame has improved significantly, I may consider it.

Got out of Tortage on 3 different characters now, and loving both Cimmeria and Stygia. Can't compare it to how it was, since I didn't play at release, but the trial accounts and people who are return keep constantly commenting about how it's a completely different game now. Frequent requests for classes for raids in global.

It's not like you've any other mmo to play right now  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Who uses Outlook anyway?  People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
Der Helm
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Reply #131 on: April 12, 2009, 08:31:11 PM

It's not like you've any other mmo to play right now  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Well, there is THE WEST !!!

"I've been done enough around here..."- Signe
Fordel
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Reply #132 on: April 12, 2009, 09:57:28 PM

What usually happened was 3 power in one realm, 3 strength in the other (or 4:2 with one realm owning all their relics) with the third realm never owning their own keeps, relics and not having any ability to impact the RvR aspect of the game.




I would still argue that the DAOC system is much preferable to the current WAR 2 faction system.  You bring up points that show that the DAOC 3 faction system isn't perfect, but nothing will be absolutely perfect.  What you have in WAR now is complete predictability. 


Yea, 3 sides wasn't any more unpredictable either.

"Alb zerg at AMG, attack zerg and wait for Tiny mid group to hit us from behind. Rinse, Repeat"


Having multiple sides is fun for a Lore/RP thing, or simply a variety thing, but it doesn't actually do much in terms of population/realm balance. Not unless you somehow artificially force the odd side out to prefer hitting the 'winner' instead of just going with the path of least resistance.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
rk47
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Reply #133 on: April 12, 2009, 10:04:55 PM

well a friend of mine mused before he quit that destruction, despite being dominating should at least suffer some division amongst themselves...so allow pvp between destro players etc. If at least to slow them down and to make it more difficult to coordinate heheh. (Dead people less Competition for Gold Chest WOOOOHOO)

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Bismallah
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Reply #134 on: April 13, 2009, 05:38:20 AM

well a friend of mine mused before he quit that destruction, despite being dominating should at least suffer some division amongst themselves...so allow pvp between destro players etc. If at least to slow them down and to make it more difficult to coordinate heheh. (Dead people less Competition for Gold Chest WOOOOHOO)

Hah, that would make for some interesting posts. "So here we were at this Fort about to drop the Lord and all the Dark Elves start stabbing the Chaos and Orcs in the face, Shamans and Zealots died first, everyone else followed then the Lord killed the remaining Dark Elves and we all died. Never took the Fort... fucking Slaanesh bitches. Never trust a Dark Elf."

GoodIdea
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Reply #135 on: April 13, 2009, 10:19:29 AM

I play Destruction on that server (Karak Eight Peaks) and what most of the commentary seems to ignore is that, in order for Destruction to even get that far in the first place they have to have dominated the game for a good period beforehand, repeatedly taken fortresses and seiged Altdorf multiple times - which is exactly what has happened on K8P in the couple of weeks leading up to this. Now what do you think is going to happen now? Will Order magically rebound from this catastrophic defeat (which has reduced Altdorf to level one) and end the endless dominance of Destruction? Or will they just think "fuck this, what's the point?" and re-roll on a server where they might actually have a chance of winning once in a while or (more likely) quit and go and do something more fun?

So in addition to the huge long list of things that are wrong, broken or just outright bad about the endgame you can add the fact that Mythic, uncharacteristically, has not thought through the consequences of a realm being defeated? What's the reason to continue playing if you're on the losing side if the very fact that you're defeated means that the other side must be so dominant that you have no realistic hope of a comeback and, to top it off, the game decides to make defeat even worse than it already is by kicking you repeatedly in the balls?

This guy has the best points of all. I'm not sure what Mythic plans to do about it.

My guild, when we were zerg dominating on one server, re-rolled on another server (to play the underdog).

Btw, everything is available even if your city is unavailable, you still have your bank, auction house, trainers, etc. The only thing that isn't available are city PVE dungeons (and most of you don't like the PVE, including myself, so who cares).

GoodIdea
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Reply #136 on: April 13, 2009, 10:27:14 AM

Right, the fact that games don't have any real form of permadeath renders tactics a moot point.
swamp poop


Imagine the patch where they finally decrease XP requirements to sane ammounts, that is, cut it to 25% of what is currently asked. The shitstorm would be epic.

Levelling is already very easy. I levelled from 38-40 with 3 hours per level (rested XP). That was pretty easy.


Delmania
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Reply #137 on: April 13, 2009, 10:29:38 AM

Btw, everything is available even if your city is unavailable, you still have your bank, auction house, trainers, etc. The only thing that isn't available are city PVE dungeons (and most of you don't like the PVE, including myself, so who cares).

Except those dungeons have the best gear for RvR.

Nebu
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Reply #138 on: April 13, 2009, 11:42:05 AM

Levelling is already very easy. I levelled from 38-40 with 3 hours per level (rested XP). That was pretty easy.

Running with a premade in RvR or doing hard PQ's in a good group? 

Solo it takes days of casual play to do that.  I play about 2hr a night and I can get one level every day or two which seems slow because 9 levels of each tier you're essentially worthless. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Ingmar
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Reply #139 on: April 13, 2009, 01:37:24 PM

Relics were described as a '20%' bonus but to this day I don't know where that number came from. The actual impact was much more significant than that, having 3 caster relics basically meant your casters were capping damage on just about every cast.

I do prefer I think multiple sides to just 2, but Fordel is right, with multiple sides if you're on the bottom it *really* sucks, especially with no population controls. One of the last relic defenses I was on in DAOC before I left, the #2 realm had more people in our frontier than our entire side had logged on at all at any level. Basically a PUG raid came along and retook a relic that had taken us multiple days of planning and organization just to get enough people together to try for it. And there were other realms out on other servers that were in even worse shape than us.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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