Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Ratman_tf]

I can see the argument that a few reverse engineered goodies aren't nearly as overwhelming as a complete, intact Collector base with a dead baby Reaper handy for analysis.

But yeah, the morality of it is wonky when Cerberus and Shepard are allready ass-deep in Collector tech and dead bodies.

[Koyasha]

While I was originally in favor of keeping the base, after giving it further thought I think destroying it is more logical, especially at the moment you're given the choice to do so.  You've just knocked down the big reaper-fetus - it hasn't been destroyed, it just fell.  That alone is dangerous enough to warrant blowing it to hell.

Now, you are supposed to have the only vessel that can get there, so if the game actually took that into account and your choices weren't 'blow it up or give it to the Illusive Man' then it might be worth considering keeping, but since it's just ignored that you and you alone control access to the place which should put you in charge, then yeah, giving a completely intact reaper-under-construction to the Illusive Man seems like a very bad idea.  Granted, a moment later you destroy it much more thoroughly, but you didn't know that at the moment you had to make the decision.

[Ingmar]

I Blew the damn thing up because really, lesson learned after the only 2 attempts at subverting reaver/harvester tech ended in disaster that was averted only by the virtue of having a protagonist shield.

Everyone who brings that particular argument up tends to omit how at the same time they're routinely using the mass relays and dock at the Citadel (both still being the Reaper tech just like it was revealed in ME1) and the awfully handy cannon upgrade which is also Reaper tech salvaged and adapted from Sovereign remains. All very useful for the universe at large. Plus, seeing how the Collectors had absolutely no trouble tracking down the first Normandy when it didn't have the IFF, it kinda makes one wonder if the whole zomg it has LoJack thing isn't a red herring... but in any case so far the track record for the Reaper tech is quite a bit better than the "nothing but doom, gloom and indoctrination" picture. More of a 50:50 deal.

IIRC Normandy 1 wasn't tracked down so much as lured into an ambush?

[rk47]

I'm having trouble imagining Shepard letting everyone dead except for 1 and then coming out of it in the sequel with new party casts.
But it's feasible. These characters you recruited are either 1) Doing their 'final thing' 2) Very influential in their society

So they may either end up sidelined as a background character like King Wrex (I killed him anyway in ME1)
I can see Garrus leading a special ops Turian.
Mordin leading Reaper research with Miranda.
Jacob leading his own Cerberus squad.
Samara running around the galaxy doing her own paladin shit.
Thane dying a peaceful death with his son etc.

I didn't like Jack one bit, though. Ugh. Bioware, please don't do that again.

[caladein]

I quite liked Jack, especially because she completed the other half of the "seedy underworld pair" with Garrus.  Having them both in your party and hitting the conversation trigger right as you enter Illium is probably my favorite one of those in the entire game.

[NowhereMan]

I don't think I spent enough time running around with correct party combinations. I think I only got 1 or 2 interactions the whole game. Characters I would like to see from ME2 in 3: Mordin, Legion, Thane. Garrus would be ok too but really if they've got those three (or even just Mordin and Legion) I'd be pretty happy. I've had two playthroughs and romanced Tali then Miranda. The Tali romance scene felt a lot like it was there just to troll the screaming fanboys, though they did a decent job of explaining why she's so gooey for Shepard in the dialogue with her. Jack I really didn't like all that much. She was ok until we get to the base on her loyalty mission, suddenly confronted with evidence the other kids there we being experimented on as safety tests for stuff on her she just goes into denial about how she's the most fucking mistreated and unfortunate person in the world. I can see people liking her as a change from most of the cast but really Grunt did that for me and was awesome.

Finally my favourite moments in the game were all Mordin. The very model of a scientist Salarian was amazing and his little sex ed talk is great, especially if you're not romancing anyone at the time.

[Riggswolfe]

-Some of the ambient adverts are great. Listen to the ones on Illium and Omega. There's a Shaft-style drama program with a Hanar advertised on Illium. "THIS ONE DOES NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR SOLID WASTE EXCRETIONS."

Small correction, this is actually a Dirty Harry take off. One of the times it is talking it is essentially doing the famous "Do you fell lucky punk?" speech.

[NowhereMan]

"This one has forgotten whether its heat sink is over capacity, it wonders whether the criminal scum considers itself fortunate."

[rk47]

The Tali romance scene felt a lot like it was there just to troll the screaming fanboys,

  Yeah, it's a good thing she had a background with Shep. Else it wouldn't have worked at all (e.g Liara in ME1)

[tmp]

Except that the to-be-salvaged tech in this case was sentient. Or at least alive enough to roar at you. And would be intact, unlike Soverign. We all know man's hubris when it comes to stuff like that.

Well, the IFF was a piece cut from a dead Reaper. Thanix cannon is reverse-engineered piece of dead Reaper. Which means someone had a piece of that supposedly dead Reaper in their lab to reverse-engineer it.

Also not all tech to be salvaged is actually sentient; the baby Reaper yeah, but it exploded into small bits and pieces in the ending after you sent it down -- you can see it in the final animation sequence, that very explosion sort-of helps you to pull your squad mate back onto the platform. So what you get is small pieces of small Reaper, something which the Sovereign case showed not to be so very dangerous... and an intact non-sentient base which, going by the existence of the mass relays and the Citadel also doesn't seem to pose direct threat.

So don't know. Overall it seems like making a decision between risky option that may or may not pay off in the end, or choosing to play it safe but then what exactly you're planning to fight the Reapers with when they show up? Current ME tech doesn't appear to be quite up to the task and to hope for some most convenient technological breakthroughs to suddenly happen doesn't feel as any more sensible, unless you meta-game it as "i'm making a blue decision in a BioWare game, it can never be wrong."?

IIRC Normandy 1 wasn't tracked down so much as lured into an ambush?

Not sure if i remember it right but thought it was something like, Normandy was sent in area where some ships were getting attacked but space being vast thing it is, the area itself was pretty huge and vaguely defined? So the Collector ship popping up not long after you arrive not far from you and being able to follow you despite the stealth systems being on... well, it didn't strike me as regular ambush.

[Koyasha]

The Tali romance scene felt a lot like it was there just to troll the screaming fanboys,

  Yeah, it's a good thing she had a background with Shep. Else it wouldn't have worked at all (e.g Liara in ME1)

I have always felt Liara was somewhat justified because clearly they shared a lot during those mind-meld experiences, so it's a lot easier to buy the otherwise 'sudden attraction' sort of thing.  Admittedly, you can do the romance talks before getting to one of the mind-melds, depending on the order you do missions in (Liara > Noveria > X57 would get you advanced deep into the romance plot without a mind-meld going on) but under most circumstances you'll have at least one before she starts getting too attracted.

Except that the to-be-salvaged tech in this case was sentient. Or at least alive enough to roar at you. And would be intact, unlike Soverign. We all know man's hubris when it comes to stuff like that.

Well, the IFF was a piece cut from a dead Reaper. Thanix cannon is reverse-engineered piece of dead Reaper. Which means someone had a piece of that supposedly dead Reaper in their lab to reverse-engineer it.

Also not all tech to be salvaged is actually sentient; the baby Reaper yeah, but it exploded into small bits and pieces in the ending after you sent it down -- you can see it in the final animation sequence, that very explosion sort-of helps you to pull your squad mate back onto the platform. So what you get is small pieces of small Reaper, something which the Sovereign case showed not to be so very dangerous... and an intact non-sentient base which, going by the existence of the mass relays and the Citadel also doesn't seem to pose direct threat.

So don't know. Overall it seems like making a decision between risky option that may or may not pay off in the end, or choosing to play it safe but then what exactly you're planning to fight the Reapers with when they show up? Current ME tech doesn't appear to be quite up to the task and to hope for some most convenient technological breakthroughs to suddenly happen doesn't feel as any more sensible, unless you meta-game it as "i'm making a blue decision in a BioWare game, it can never be wrong."?

IIRC Normandy 1 wasn't tracked down so much as lured into an ambush?

Not sure if i remember it right but thought it was something like, Normandy was sent in area where some ships were getting attacked but space being vast thing it is, the area itself was pretty huge and vaguely defined? So the Collector ship popping up not long after you arrive not far from you and being able to follow you despite the stealth systems being on... well, it didn't strike me as regular ambush.

Remember that at the point you decide whether to blow up the base or not, all that has happened is the reaper has fallen down.  Indeed, it gets up and attacks you right after you make the decision.  It's completely intact when you make the decision, and in an unknown state of development where it may be sentient, it may be capable of using indoctrination already, there's no way of telling.  That's why, while I originally figured keep the base was the most reasonable decision, it seems a little less so once I consider those facts.

As for the Normandy SR-1's ambush, the way it was done is pretty much the only way you could ambush the Normandy.  It doesn't directly imply that you can track it while stealthed at all.  It's made clear that FTL travel cannot be covered up, so the collectors, if they've been scanning the area waiting for you to show up, know the exact location you dropped out of FTL speed.  Assuming they also know about the stealth systems, they can then pop in and do visual scans of the immediate area.  It's less than 2 minutes between the Normandy dropping out of FTL, and the collector ship attacking - they could not have gotten out of visual range that quickly.  It's entirely logical to assume that they tracked the ship in FTL, went to its last known location, did a visual scan as soon as they arrived, and found it.

[bhodi]

Well, the IFF was a piece cut from a dead Reaper. Thanix cannon is reverse-engineered piece of dead Reaper. Which means someone had a piece of that supposedly dead Reaper in their lab to reverse-engineer it.

And the IFF reaper was very much not dead even though everyone thought it was. It's true the Thanix cannon was reverse engineered from the salvaged main gun of the Soverign, any time you've got potential for Reaper indoctrination it pays to stay away - from what I understand, the indoctrination can be incredibly subtle and almost unnoticed if taken slow enough.

[kaid]

Well, the IFF was a piece cut from a dead Reaper. Thanix cannon is reverse-engineered piece of dead Reaper. Which means someone had a piece of that supposedly dead Reaper in their lab to reverse-engineer it.

And the IFF reaper was very much not dead even though everyone thought it was. It's true the Thanix cannon was reverse engineered from the salvaged main gun of the Soverign, any time you've got potential for Reaper indoctrination it pays to stay away - from what I understand, the indoctrination can be incredibly subtle and almost unnoticed if taken slow enough.

I based my decision on the fact that up to this point every interaction with a more or less intact reaper or reaper artifacts even the "dead" ones has wound up with me having to fight my way back into it and or had it start trying to take over the galaxy. The tech is so out there that in large enough volumes it just does not appear to be something that can be safely studied. Studying some bits and pieces appears viable but if you have read the book when the original folks who found soverign thought it was derelict and the supposedly derelict IFF reaper also is not as dead as one would believe.

As mentioned in one of the notebook things on the iFF reaper one scientist said being in the presence of the reaper was like being in the presence of god. Even when it is "dead' just being in its presence is enough to change people.

While it would be dandy to have an intact base full of tech goodies I have to imagine in the third game if you leave it in tact you wind up having to fight your way back into it through masses of husks and god knows what else.


As soverign said in the first game the reapers left technology for other races to find and use to direct their growth along lines they desired. It is not beyond the realm of reason that the collector base is a giant honey pot trap set for shepard to make him follow the path the reapers wish.

[Rasix]

I changed the thread title to give fair warning.  Don't feel the need to spoiler tag if you don't want to.

[Fabricated]

The Jack romance has about the best writing of all of the male Shepard romances. You literally spend like 6-7 conversations between every mission breaking through her facade, and then the "payoff" is nice and simple; she cries. No "Abloo bloo bloooo my tragic past" speech or dialog written by a sweaty nerdling for the love scene. Her voice acting is some of the best in the game too. And this is coming from someone who hated the fuck out of her character at first because of the general "RARRR CHECK IT OUT FANS WE ADDED SOME XXXTREME SQUADMATES DUDE RADICAL" vibe they tried to give her in the advertising.

Also, even when the end, END result was semi-okay nothing involving re-purposed Reaper technology has turned out well so far. I kinda wonder if the Illusive Man is indoctrinated+implanted or something. That sounds like the kind of bullshit plot-twist they'd pull on you at the last second.

[Ratman_tf]

Also, even when the end, END result was semi-okay nothing involving re-purposed Reaper technology has turned out well so far. I kinda wonder if the Illusive Man is indoctrinated+implanted or something. That sounds like the kind of bullshit plot-twist they'd pull on you at the last second.

I found it interesting that his eyes are similar to geth eyes.

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/104/1041365/mass-effect-2-20091103045852564.jpg

http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect2/resources/assets/universe/characters/screenshots/illusive_man-02-p.jpg

[Surlyboi]

Also, even when the end, END result was semi-okay nothing involving re-purposed Reaper technology has turned out well so far. I kinda wonder if the Illusive Man is indoctrinated+implanted or something. That sounds like the kind of bullshit plot-twist they'd pull on you at the last second.

I found it interesting that his eyes are similar to geth eyes.

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/104/1041365/mass-effect-2-20091103045852564.jpg

http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect2/resources/assets/universe/characters/screenshots/illusive_man-02-p.jpg

It WOULD explain how easily the Collectors found you after he told Miranda, "See to it that Shepard is ours"

[NowhereMan]

It seems on the one hand too obvious a Tweeest and on the other doesn't make a lot of sense. The Reapers are clearly invested in whatever project they've got with the Human Reaper and the Collectors, TIS deliberately sends you in to wreck their shit as well as bringing you back to life from pretty much guaranteed death. While they seem to be setting him up as an antagonist of some sort for ME3 frankly I don't know how they'll do it and have it make any real sense. If it was based post Reaper invasion and was about uniting aliens to generally I could buy him as a villain but he's stated he's not just a xenophobe and is willing to work with aliens. He believes the Reapers exist and the threat they pose and he's done a lot to screw up Reaper plans. I'm not going to say there's no way they'll make him indoctrinated/a villain but doing so and keeping everything sane seems... well it involves far more suspension of disbelief than Shepard happily signing on with Cerberus.

Basically I'd rather see him being set up as an obvious villain and the twist (which would make far more sense) being that it's someone far more benign seeming like Udina that's the actual threat.

[Venkman]

I just finished ME1 last night. Which of course compelled me to replay ME2 again, at least until they get the SR2 and Joker.

One thing I'm not clear on, and I remember someone mentioning it a few dozen pages back or something.

In ME1, it's you against the Reapers, by way of Saren. All of that made some sense. ME2 though introduces yet another boogeyman whose home base you blow up, but all along seems to have nothing to do with the original boogeymen, except that throwaway scene at the end of all of them moving into the galaxy. It's like if the end of A New Hope was the Battle of Hoth and the end of Empire Strikes Back was blowing up the first Death Star.

What's the connection? Why the Collectors? Why harvest hundreds of thousands of humans when you've got enough ships to lay waste to the galaxy? And what's the point of making a humanoid Reaper?

[Ingmar]

Since we're out of the spoiler zone I guess:

ME2 is you against the Reapers still. Instead of Saren, their proxies this time are the Collectors, who are really the enslaved remnants of Protheans, modified to be remote-controlled by a Reaper, in this case called Harbinger. What you learn in ME2, essentially, is why the Reapers allow organic life to keep coming back at all; they use them in some nebulous way to reproduce. The implication would be that they can't reproduce otherwise. When we make that assumption it goes a long way to explaining why the Reapers allow the continual space flight->discover mass relays->reapers come do their thing cycle to continue. Combine that with the fact that apparently humans are excitingly variable genetically, and that has some sort of undefined positive impact on using them for said reproduction, and we see why Harbinger has the Collectors start gathering the humans a little early, basically.

I think the only reason that the Reaper being 'built' is a humanoid is because some game designer always wanted to put that thing from the back of one of his heavy metal albums from the 80s into a video game. It doesn't bear close examination. 

[Polysorbate80]

Near as I can tell, the Illusive man isn't a xenophobe per se, just racist (speciest?)--he doesn't mind aliens as long as humanity is the pre-eminent species in the galaxy and the "space-darkies" keep their place.

I also think that Reaper technology is way more dangerous than it's worth.  Sure, the Mass Relay system is safe.  The Reapers want developing races to think it's fabulous, easy, and safe, so that they don't decide to go their own way to avoid what turns out to be a massive freakin' trap.  Small amounts in extreme isolation (with people/AIs watching for safety, and people watching THOSE people/AIs for safety) may be worth study, but an entire small moon of Reaper tech?  You'd be mutated into some Lovecraftian horror before the week was out.

I didn't reprogram the Geth, I destroyed them, because it wasn't entirely clear to me at the time exactly what I'd be doing if I reprogrammed them.  If I was just repairing damage done by Sovereign then it would have been the right thing to do, even if they still persisted in their hostility and had to be destroyed--at least they were making their own decision and having to live with the results.  On the other hand, If I were actually reprogramming them directly into "seeing the light", then that would have been evil IMO. 

[Fabricated]

The citadel is gonna get turned on its head again likely in ME3. Watch it turn out to be a reaper itself for some dumb reason, or have a reaper in the core.

If you scanned the keepers, the guy who had you do that sends you an email stating that he noticed that the keepers are programmed to respond to some weird signal and the last time it went off was around when the protheans disappeared and that it's due to happen again.

So easy money on the keepers turning into monsters or some shit in another battle for the citadel. Looks like Anderson might get to play action hero again?

[Lakov_Sanite]

The citadel is gonna get turned on its head again likely in ME3. Watch it turn out to be a reaper itself for some dumb reason, or have a reaper in the core.

If you scanned the keepers, the guy who had you do that sends you an email stating that he noticed that the keepers are programmed to respond to some weird signal and the last time it went off was around when the protheans disappeared and that it's due to happen again.

So easy money on the keepers turning into monsters or some shit in another battle for the citadel. Looks like Anderson might get to play action hero again?

You didn't pay much attention to the first game then. That signal is exactly what sovereign gave to the keepers at the end of the first. The citadel has been kept and maintained by the keepers since long before the prtheans. The citadel was designed by the reapers as a central hub for races to congregate. When the 'harvest' signal is given, the citadel is shut down from the inside, the leaders of many races are trapped and all mass relays get turned into reaper only controlled(or something like that) 

basically the keepers are one of the very first reaper egineered/indoctrinated races much like the collecters in part 2.

[Mazakiel]

Actually, the Keepers' genetic code had changed enough that they didn't respond to the signal from Sovereign like they were supposed to, hence Saren needing to bust into Citadel central control to access the hidden station controls himself.   I think the Keepers may have been changed by the few surviving Protheans who took a one way trip through the Conduit after the Reapers had wiped out their civilization.  My memory on that part's fuzzy though. 

[schild]

It was changed by the Protheans, yes. They're the ones that noticed the signal and shut off that means of communication.

[Fabricated]

So does the message from the NPC that asked you to scan them make no sense then since it was information you knew already?

It seemed to me like they were implying something different. I knew about the signal and the changes the VI on Ilos mentions.

[Velorath]

So does the message from the NPC that asked you to scan them make no sense then since it was information you knew already?

It seemed to me like they were implying something different. I knew about the signal and the changes the VI on Ilos mentions.

I wouldn't say that it doesn't make any sense.  It's information that Shepard knows, but it's not common knowledge given how the Council doesn't really want to acknowledge the existence of the Reapers.  It's just a nod to the first game, and shows the NPC coming to some of the same conclusions that the Protheans did.

[rk47]

Uh. IIRC, Protheans realized the keepers are inside agents left behind by the Reapers to trigger the doomsday device. But it was too late, all they could do was take the assault in the face...hole up their scientists in Ilos till Reapers are gone in hopes of restarting their civ. But it took too long, and the power for the cryo suspension failed. Only a handful survived. Too few to start a new civilization, but at the very least they can warn future civilizations of the Reapers by building beacons like the one Shepard found in Eden. ALSO they deactivated the keepers response protocol when the Reapers finished their hibernation period, forcing them to get someone like Saren.

[Quinton]

Amazon has ME2 on sale today -- $40 for xbox360, $30 for PC: http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/?docId=1000208101

[Velorath]

Hammerhead gameplay footage.  Honestly, I think I'd rather have more regular side quests added.  Not that this looks bad or anything, but I'm hoping there's at least some story involved in the Hammerhead missions and that it isn't all just flying around spastically and shooting stuff.

[Ratman_tf]

Hammerhead gameplay footage.  Honestly, I think I'd rather have more regular side quests added.  Not that this looks bad or anything, but I'm hoping there's at least some story involved in the Hammerhead missions and that it isn't all just flying around spastically and shooting stuff.

Yeah. I'm gonna hope that's a real chintzy teaser they threw together.

[NowhereMan]

I didn't reprogram the Geth, I destroyed them, because it wasn't entirely clear to me at the time exactly what I'd be doing if I reprogrammed them.  If I was just repairing damage done by Sovereign then it would have been the right thing to do, even if they still persisted in their hostility and had to be destroyed--at least they were making their own decision and having to live with the results.  On the other hand, If I were actually reprogramming them directly into "seeing the light", then that would have been evil IMO. 

I agree with you on keeping the base, the Reapers have proved that even without sentience on the verge of death they can still severely fuck people up. Even wiping out the Collectors I don't think that it's really safe although that isn't the reason Shepard ever gives. You get the choice between, "People died, using such research is an abomination!" or, "We will make sure these deaths weren't in vain by saving more lives with what we'll learn!" Gamewise it's purely a morality call, which I think is a bit forced since there's a perfectly practical cautious reason to blow that sucker up.

On the Geth I chose to reprogramme them but was doing pretty much the evil thing you saw it to be. You alter whatever one of their basic calculations is, change one of the axioms of their worldview and, when that's processed through and affected subsequent things you'll have altered their whole view of the Reapers (and according to Legion some other things as well). Actually listening to Legion was interesting, I'm hoping he's got more dialogue that I can get through DLC missions. Finding out that Sovereign's name was Nazar was interesting, likewise that Reapers are thousands of minds acting as one (with the Geth being thousands that seek to build consensus). I was left questioning whether Geth are in fact immune to indoctrination, whether the Geth that followed Sovereign were actually motivated by an alternate and irreconcilable viewpoint or if they had been perverted by proximity to Sovereign. The whole thing about the Geth being outside the Reapers plans was interesting too, they're obviously going to be important as something of a wild card from the point of view of the Reapers. They've spent the last few hundred years developing technologically separately from organics and they've probably got some interesting surprises.

[ajax34i]

If we're discussing possibilities for ME3, it seems to me that we need numbers (and bigger ships) in order to fight the many Reapers, so ...  do we have to remove the genophage and let the Krogans have at it?  Grow the Rachni again?  Help the Geth replicate themselves a lot?  According to the lore, there are only a few options to get the massive numbers needed.

The tech, I'm not worried about, I'm sure Bioware will come up with something.  Tech progress always happens incredibly fast and for no apparent reason in sci-fi anything.

[NowhereMan]

I don't think it's going to be just numbers, based on what it required to take down one Reaper and some Geth and the numbers that they have we're going to need a Macguffin that defeats them. That's not to say there won't be a lot, "We need to unite to defeat the Reapers!" in 3 but it's going to require lots of magic tech things to defeat them. Unless the Geth turn out to have a whole fleet of Reaper killers lying around inside the Veil.

[bhodi]

Well, the magic tech for this game came in the form of the Thanix cannon, it seemed implausibly powerful against the collector ship, but who knows what it'd do against a reaper ship.