Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Riggswolfe]

[Furiously]

[NowhereMan]

[Riggswolfe]

[tmp]

[Ratman_tf]

[NowhereMan]

To continue the series of spoiler posts:

[Shrike]

We need a spoiler thread.

[Kitsune]

[tmp]

Well this is generic enough so can go with combo breaker

tmp you're really sort of taking the view that AIs will have similar wants/needs/standards to your own.

Please note, this isn't actually my view. This is based off a post made earlier:

There was always a knowledge among the writers that the treatment of AIs in Council Space is pure racism on the part of organics, akin to the legal and moral handwavings used throughout history to justify slavery of "lesser races." (..) Oh, but AIs aren't really alive. They're just created objects. It's totally okay to keep them imprisoned their entire lives, restrict their access to all but approved knowledge, prevent them from breeding, and execute them if they seem too uppity, or, you know, just because we feel like it. When they rise up in revolt it's always due to insanity or ingratitude on their part. We treat them very well, considering how naturally inferior they are to real sapients. Really, they should thank us for educating them.

My point was more or less, if the intention of the ME writers was to have their universe work in such way then it was a surprise to me to see an actual AI keep acting docile despite supposed oppression it's been experiencing since its creation. Note, i'm deriving the concept of AIs with similar wants/needs/standards from this very statement how they're being kept imprisoned, restricted etc. Since that wording at least implies the fact of going against wishes of the AIs themselves and consequently the existence of such wishes in the first place.

[Lantyssa]

That only gives the organics' perception of AIs, not what any of the AIs think about the situation.  Some might agree they are being repressed, others come to the conclusion that this line of thinking is hostile and dangerous for their continued existence, while others may not care at all.  We aren't privy to their views.

[tmp]

That only gives the organics' perception of AIs, not what any of the AIs think about the situation.  Some might agree they are being repressed, others come to the conclusion that this line of thinking is hostile and dangerous for their continued existence, while others may not care at all.  We aren't privy to their views.

Well, the thing is if the organics in questions are the very authors of the universe we're discussing then this gets bit blurry. I mean, if George Lucas went on the record to state R2D2 peruses Ewok porn in its spare time, i'm not sure if many would challenge that on the grounds of "oh but Lucas is just a meatbag, he isn't privy to R2D2's views".

[Goreschach]

That only gives the organics' perception of AIs, not what any of the AIs think about the situation.  Some might agree they are being repressed, others come to the conclusion that this line of thinking is hostile and dangerous for their continued existence, while others may not care at all.  We aren't privy to their views.

Well, the thing is if the organics in questions are the very authors of the universe we're discussing then this gets bit blurry. I mean, if George Lucas went on the record to state R2D2 peruses Ewok porn in its spare time, i'm not sure if many would challenge that on the grounds of "oh but Lucas is just a meatbag, he isn't privy to R2D2's views".

Are you serious? A lot of starwars fans basically don't even believe large portions of the prequel trilogy are canon.

[eldaec]

That only gives the organics' perception of AIs, not what any of the AIs think about the situation.  Some might agree they are being repressed, others come to the conclusion that this line of thinking is hostile and dangerous for their continued existence, while others may not care at all.  We aren't privy to their views.

Well, the thing is if the organics in questions are the very authors of the universe we're discussing then this gets bit blurry. I mean, if George Lucas went on the record to state R2D2 peruses Ewok porn in its spare time, i'm not sure if many would challenge that on the grounds of "oh but Lucas is just a meatbag, he isn't privy to R2D2's views".

In literary criticism circles it is considered perfectly legitimate to disagree with the author's opinion on anything not explicitly included in the text.

[tmp]

Is that to trick the authors into publishing more works, out of imperative to have the last word in regarding their own creations?

[CmdrSlack]

Is that to trick the authors into publishing more works, out of imperative to have the last word in regarding their own creations?

Naw, because we do it to books where you'd want the author to JUST PLEASE STOP WRITING as well. 

[rk47]

Biggest gripe with the game is probably how 'noble' the portrayal of Cerberus is. I have not disagreed with a single Cerberus Operative I'm met on the Normandy. That's disappointing. To think they were 'Human Supremacist' and were viewed as a sinister threat, they seemed to be the only faction willing to help humanity.

It was made worse with how straight Jacobs is and Miranda always do the right thing. None of the operatives are ruthless or live up to the sinister reputation they had in the first game. The Illusive Man is an exception but highly uninvolved in the ground works. I would really love having someone that drives both paragon and renegade shepard up the wall with a different point of view than 'saving the galaxy'. And revisiting Citadel felt empty. They should've put in one Citadel recruitable operative there. Just to give a balanced view of the whole fight against the Reaper. A simple 'We couldn't help you directly, but please take this agent with you' would suffice. It's more interesting than a fucking psycho wanting to screw the world while sticking with Shepard. Made no damn sense. I should've been given the option to put a bullet to her head when I first met her.

[Reg]

Isn't Cerberus' treatment of Jack all the proof you need that they're still basically evil? As far as I'm concerned the Illusive Man just sent Jacob and Miranda along with me because he knew that my Paragon Shepard would never accept one of this other more evil operatives. Miranda can claim that the Cerberus reps that tortured Jack had gone rogue all she wants but as far as Shepard can see they're just acting the way Cerberus agents all acted back in Mass Effect 1.

[ajax34i]

If the Illusive Man sends a matching Jacob and Miranda with Shepard, then he should have chosen renegade versions of both for my renegade ME1 savegame.  But Bioware didn't code that in; Cerberus is nice regardless of your ME1 morality.  Which means the Illusive Man didn't take any particular care to make the Lazarus team fit Shepard's [known] morality, and Cerberus really is the way Jacob and Miranda are acting.

Regarding AI's,
Why are we spoilering generic discussions about AI, but not generic discussions about Cerberus and Mass Effect morality?

[Reg]

We're 30 pages into the thread at this point. I think all the /spoiler paranoia is a little much really.

[Venkman]

I agree.

As to Cerberus, I'm beginning to think the ME1 Cerberus is a bit different than the ME2 one. Like maybe the first was an extremist group and then the Illusive man came in and started refocusing attention on important things. Jack still works in this scenario because what they did to her was before TiM's arrival.

That could be just a convenient retcon to wrap my brain around it. But unless Stormwaltz says otherwise, I'm going with it. I like the ME2 Cerberus. Screw the politicians. Martin Sheen gets shit done!

Also, is it me or does ME1 Kaiden sound a lot like ME2 TiM? Almost like I wish that was the case so that Kaiden became TiM and wasn't instead a throwaway bit in the sequel.

Ah, if wishes were horses...

[Lakov_Sanite]

If you're cerebus and you need shepards help, renegade OR paragon, are you going to surround him with your core group of fanatics which he was probably shotting at two years ago or are you going to fill his small crew with your 'softer' elements? Cerebus is big enough to have a couple dozen carebears in it.

[Comstar]

Considering how Cerebus  TiM is going to be the talking bad guy in ME3, the personal enemy who you get to discuss the topics of the day, much like Serth was in ME1. The Reavers will be like the Dragon in Dragon Age: A big bad guy who dosn't say much where most of your time is spent fighting a more sentient being as you gather an fleet.

[rk47]

DLC Companion, Zaeed Massani, Loyalty Mission resolution.

[Shrike]

If you're cerebus and you need shepards help, renegade OR paragon, are you going to surround him with your core group of fanatics which he was probably shotting at two years ago or are you going to fill his small crew with your 'softer' elements? Cerebus is big enough to have a couple dozen carebears in it.

Well, if you talk to the crew you find out that the vast majority--in fact, I think all of them--are former Alliance personnel. The main reason they're there is they feel the Alliance isn't doing enough, but Cerberus is. They want to help. They don't know your history with Cerberus, and Miranda is pretty evasive when confronted with your experiences with them in ME1.

Now what that portends in ME3 is anyone's guess. TIM's reaction after the forlorn hope can vary a bit, depending on how you deal with him. He surrounds himself with an aura of plausible deniablity when confronted with what you've seen from Cerberus in ME1. I can certainly see him and the rest of Cerberus becoming an issue in ME3, they have been before, and we really don't know what's he's ultimately aiming for.

[Furiously]

Three is going to be really busy.

Unless the illusive man is also the shadowbroker. Or someone you know is..

[Fabricated]

Beat the game finally just the other day.

[tmp]

Beat the game finally just the other day.

I bet money rallying the Krogan revolves around Wrex being alive

Wouldn't bet on it considering the standard ME2 game you get without importing a save from ME1 has him dead.

[Lakov_Sanite]

[Fabricated]

I mean,

[NowhereMan]

[bhodi]

OK, I'm declaring this thread spoilerific at this point. The game's been out for a month and a half and we're heading into page 30. Anyone who clicks this deep in pretty much deserves what they get.

I beat it just now; chose Miranda over Jack, and didn't have enough paragon to make her loyal at the end. By the time I finished legion's loyalty mission, everyone else (sans Jack) was loyal and I had enough paragon to convince Tali to back off. I totally cheated and checked who I should lead and do what so everyone was saved at the end. I Blew the damn thing up because really, lesson learned after the only 2 attempts at subverting reaver/harvester tech ended in disaster that was averted only by the virtue of having a protagonist shield. I overwrote the heretic geth instead of destroying them.

I played as a soldier and selected the harvester assault rifle. I used the sniper rifle a lot as well. Concussion shot was way more useful than I expected, I saved it till after I level'd everything else but the useless ammo powers and wish I had taken it earlier. My main group characters were Miranda and Samara.

I was almost all paragon, about 1/3 renegade. I [right hook]'d the everliving hell out of that reporter because I didn't do it in ME1. Hell yeah! I definitely played a more aggressive Shepherd than in ME1. I was a bit schizophrenic since I'd always select either the top or bottom and rarely the middle in my effort to get both paragon and renegade bars up. In retrospect, it was somewhat of a mistake as it really didn't get me anything, but not a serious one since even though I didn't max paragon, nothing was really closed to me.

Sad they discarded the whole 'touched by the ancients' part that played such a role in ME1. It was hardly mentioned. I would have liked some expansion there, maybe some special powers or abilities to control their tech or something, even if it's done in cutscene/storymode and not an active, usable power.

Like many, also disappointed at the exploration part; mining kind of sucked but I didn't hate it as much as everyone here. I explored every planet and everything on the map was 100% but I didn't get any related achievement; I wonder if I missed something. I did very much like the 0-100% exploration per system - the ability to hunt any "hidden" asteroids/planets in the system but only when there is actually one to find was much better than ME1. It was nice not having to look every system up on gamefaqs to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Money was a bit too scarce and research resources too plentiful; I also didn't like the gated tech; acquiring something new like armor/shield piercing and being unable to research it because I didn't find the next +10% weapon damage was just clunky and annoying, especially when you get the (potential) upgrade as a mission reward. Not being able to respec anyone but yourself seemed... odd. Either respec or don't; When I got Jack, selected, and leveled up warp ammo to group, I wanted to respec everyone out of their ammo. I also wanted to respec them into their loyalty power and was annoyed when I couldn't.

Thank god I read a FAQ that says STOP at the IFF mission. Had I done that, I would have been pretty pissed at being railroaded into the end of the game before I was ready. I can see the sort of reasons and the idea of not letting you go in completely prepared, but it was done in an extremely ham-fisted sort of way especially when you've been explicitly told to form a group.

I would have liked the Normandy upgrades to do things in other points except the end of the game. The ending boss fight was pretty lame, you should have come up with something, anything, other than "attack the weak point for massive damage", now he's invincible here kill some minions and the weakpoint will open again!

I did like the (miniature giant) space hamster. That, and the right hook were my favorite parts of the game.

[Fabricated]

I tried to play my shep like a consistent character rather than just making decisions however it benefited me the most, made it more interesting. Ended up with a Shep that knew it'd take humanity + everyone else in the universe to beat the Reapers, and basically just used Cerberus for info/support while fully expecting and preparing for the inevitable knife to the back. Thankfully that was compatible with showing pretty much no quarter to hired guns dumb enough to get in my way.

Ended up accidentally starting up Jack's romance and I ran with it. A pretty "Dawwwwwww... :3" ending all things considered.

Best moments in the game so far:
-Everything on Tuchanka if you have Wrex alive. If you don't go full-on aggressive you're missing out on some great shit. Headbutting the Krogan objector after Wrex did it was hilarious. Also it's the only major mission hub where you can the most rewarding stuff and not end up feeling like a piece of shit. I actually fucking smiled upon meeting Wrex again.

-Collector attack on the Normandy. Nevermind that it makes no sense how your entire squad got on the shuttle for some mission no one mentioned and how you never noticed losing contact with the ship. All the same it's actually pretty intense having to hobble around utterly helpless as Joker watching the world fall down around you, and wow, they actually wrote him like an actual human being rather than a character during the attack. No "I've gotta save the day!", just "SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT FUCK SHIT FUCK SHIT FUCK" while frantically hobbling to safety.

-Some of the ambient adverts are great. Listen to the ones on Illium and Omega. There's a Shaft-style drama program with a Hanar advertised on Illium. "THIS ONE DOES NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR SOLID WASTE EXCRETIONS."

[tmp]

I Blew the damn thing up because really, lesson learned after the only 2 attempts at subverting reaver/harvester tech ended in disaster that was averted only by the virtue of having a protagonist shield.

Everyone who brings that particular argument up tends to omit how at the same time they're routinely using the mass relays and dock at the Citadel (both still being the Reaper tech just like it was revealed in ME1) and the awfully handy cannon upgrade which is also Reaper tech salvaged and adapted from Sovereign remains. All very useful for the universe at large. Plus, seeing how the Collectors had absolutely no trouble tracking down the first Normandy when it didn't have the IFF, it kinda makes one wonder if the whole zomg it has LoJack thing isn't a red herring... but in any case so far the track record for the Reaper tech is quite a bit better than the "nothing but doom, gloom and indoctrination" picture. More of a 50:50 deal.

[bhodi]

Except that the to-be-salvaged tech in this case was sentient. Or at least alive enough to roar at you. And would be intact, unlike Soverign. We all know man's hubris when it comes to stuff like that.

Oh sure, safeguards would totally be in place. I am sure no one would ever try and take shortcuts with a reaper fleet bearing down on them. Especially with a 'results at any price' guy at the top applying pressure.